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1.33 Campaign Balance Update

Lok'tar Campaigners!

I thought you'd all enjoy a detailed breakdown of the changes implemented in the 1.33 Reforged campaign which you can now play on PTR. In addition to what is listed in this thread you'll notice visual updates to a few maps as well. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Update: As of 1.36.1 these changes as well as hundreds of others including extensive bug fixes, terrain, tech tree, and even cinematic updates were reverted. This seems to have been done in an attempt to fix stability issues. It is quite a tragic loss for the campaign community.


Primary Issue:
The game was not tested for AI difficulty using any type of standards for Easy, Normal, and Hard.

Goal:
Align all campaigns on difficulty
Make sure Hard is challenging to a seasoned veteran

Editing AI files:

Note for Normal:
Handicap removed from all missions

Definitions:

Easy (Story Mode)

Players should require minimal RTS experience
One hand rule
Players should be allowed to make many mistakes and recover
Experiencing the cutscenes, scripted gameplay moments, and plot are the priority
Attack move is expected

Normal

Players should be allowed to make mistakes with minimal punishment
Players should be using their keyboard to build and use unit abilities
Attack move is expected

Hard

Players should be punished for mistakes
Bosses and similar pivotal gameplay moments should be memorable due to how hard they are, while remaining interesting
Players will be expected to use most of the tools at their disposal to complete a mission
Targeting individual units by priority is expected
"Gold Stress" should come into play, meaning the player should feel as though they need to expand at some point rather than relying on a single mine without concern.

General:

Anecdotally I've heard that the efforts to reduce "wasted" startup time building bases has been appreciated. We did this numerous times by providing more workers and making sure they are harvesting coming out of cutscenes. We should look into how we can apply this further.

RoC

Prologue

PR01

Normal

2x Gnoll and 1x Gnoll Poacher replaced with 2x Gnoll Brute and 1x Gnoll Assassian at camp

Hard

+1 Gnoll Overseer at camp

All difficulties

Narrator VO first Gnoll will not play or truncate if you attack before they are finished speaking
Narrator VO for a-moving into the Gnoll camp will not play or truncate if you are already moving in
These resolve an issue where the Narrator would be speaking over you doing the thing he's preparing you for
Gnoll camp exit is blocked until you kill all the Gnolls
Players could run past, skipping the experience and more importantly level 2 and the lesson on Chain Lightning
There is a text Hint if you near the barrier while Gnolls are alive
This is the watershed moment of the map so the difficulty is focused here

PR02

Hard

Enemy AI has level 1 weapon, armor, and Improved Masonry upgrades
+2 Footmen at far side bridge
+2 Footmen, +1 Knight at gate 1
+2 Footmen at cage 2
+3 Riflemen at firing range
+1 Knight at cage 3
+2 Footmen at gate 2
+1 Captain, +1 Knight, +2 Riflemen at base

PR03

Hard

Did not exist
Enemy AI has level 1 weapon, armor, and Improved Masonry upgrades

Bugs

Debug triggers were on

PR04

Hard

Enemy AI has level 1 weapon, and armor upgrades
Player has level 1 weapon and armor upgrades instead of level 2

PR05

Hard

Did not exist
Buildings seen as damaged in the intro are not repaired

Human

These will be used as controls for the campaigns

HU01

Hard

+1 Gnoll at Timmy
+2 bandits at bandit camp for Ledger
+3 Grunts when entering town
+1 Grunt at Slave Master
AI starts with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades
Orc forces will now rush to defend their leader if you move directly to him
Benedict no longer disabled

Bugs

VO and quest triggers no longer stack and overlap if you run past triggered events
You no longer see units pop out of existence in the mid scene

HU02

Hard

-2 Scout Towers at player base
+2 Grunts, +3 Axethrower at Blademaster
+2 Grunts, +1 Watch Tower, +1 Barracks at Blackrock Clan base
+1 Grunt, +1 Raider, +1 Watch Tower at center
+2 Black Drake road to Searinox
AI starts with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades

HU03

Hard

+2 Bandit Rogues at village ambush
+2 Murloc Huntsman at Murloc Island
+6 Skeleton Archers at ambush
+4 Skeleton Warriors at pre-KT fountain
Skeleton Warriors replaced with Giant Skeleton Warriors at KT
Ghoul rush from wheat increased from 4 to 8 at KT
Ghoul rush from rear +4 each side of buildings at KT
Final Barn rush doubled
AI starts with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades

All difficulties

+1 Puddle Lord Envoy (Murloc Flesheater) at Murloc island - Reference to UDx03

HU04

Normal

+1 Abomination outside KT

Hard

Starting mine reduced to 8000
Expansion mine reduced to 6000
Replace Potion of Mana Enforcer with Bandit Lord
+6 Ghouls, +2 Giant Skeleton Warriors spawn and attack after Granary cutscene
+2 Giant Skeleton Warriors, +1 Abomination at KT throne
Abominations at KT Throne now warp in surrounding the player
+3 Abominations outside KT area
Wave 2 +2 Abominations
Wave 3 +2 Abominations
Wave 4 +4 Abominations
Wave 5 +3 Abominations
Wave 6 +4 Abominations
Wave 7 +2 Abominations
AI starts with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades, Disease Cloud

All difficulties

+1 Spirit Tower outside KT
Swap Slaughterhouse at KT with Altar of Darkness
+2 Slaughterhouses at green base
Fight with KT is now more substantial. 3/5/8 Aboms will warp in to defend him.
KT further adjusted to be a hero unit and will use Death Pact to heal himself.
Wave 1 M5,M5,M1 -> M5,M3,M1
Wave 2 M6,M6,M3 -> M5,M4,M2
Wave 3 M5,M5,M3 -> M5,M3,M2
Wave 4 M5,M5,M4 -> M5,M3,M2
Wave 5 M6,M6,M3 -> M6,M4,M2
Wave 6 M5,M5,M4 -> M5,M3,M2
Wave 7 M6,M6,M3 -> M6,M4,M2
A wave of zombies will emerge from the trees if you get past the Abominations

HU05

Hard

+30 intro zombies
Green:
Wave 2 +2 Ghouls, +1 Necro, -1 Meat Wagon
Wave 3 +Hero
Wave 4 +4 Ghouls, +2 Necromancers
Wave 5 +4 Necromancers, +2 Abominations
Wave 6 +Hero, -2 Meat Wagons
Wave 7
Wave 8 +4 Ghouls, +2 Abominations, -3 Meat Wagons, +Hero
Purple
Wave 5 -2 Meat Wagon
Wave 6 -1 Meat Wagon
Wave 8 -2 Meat Wagon
Wave 10 -1 Meat Wagon
All attack wave intervals increased by 2 minutes through 25 minutes, after all waves increased by 1 minute
Orange
-1 Meat Wagon, -1 Abomination, -1 Necromancer

All difficulties

Lich heroes were not configured per difficulty level, they are now: Green/Purple, 2/3, 4/5, 6/7
Ordering forces to move to the first village no longer paths through Green's base
Waves with Liches reduced in size

HU06

Hard

Starting units no longer reduced
Damage of Meathook Disease Cloud increased from 16/sec to 28/sec
Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades, Disease Cloud

Purple:

Wave 1 +4 Ghouls

All difficulties

Purple shares upgrades with Green
Easy/Normal damage of Meathook Disease Cloud increased from 12/sec ro 18/sec, all difficulties auto attack damage increased from 52 to 72
Salramm the Fleshcrafter: Base damage increase from 7 to 45, auto attack is AoE, cooldown decreased from 1.8 to 1.4

HU07

Hard

+2 Frost Wolfs at first choke
Replace three Ice Trolls with Ice Troll Berserkers
Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades, Disease Cloud
Remove starting Priest
Expansion mine reduced from 12500 to 9000
Opening mine reduced from 9000 to 7000
Green:

Wave 1 +2 Ghouls
Wave 2 +3 Gargoyles, + 0/2/5 Ghouls, 1 minute faster
Wave 3 +1 Abomination, +2 Necromancers
Wave 4 +3 Gargoyles, + 0/2/6 Ghouls
Wave 5 +1 Abomination
Wave 6 +0/4/8 Ghouls
Wave 7 +3 Abominations
Wave 9 +0/4/8 Ghouls
Wave 10 +2 Abominations
+1 Slaughterhouse
+3 Spirit Towers in base
+2 Spirit Towers out of base with small guard force
+1 Crypt

All difficulties

Main mine gold reduced from 24680 to 9000
Expansion mine gold reduced from 20000 to 12500
1 Frost Wolf replaced with Giant Frost Wolf at first choke
Small attack wave after mid cutscene
Start with a Lumber Mill
Green Lich was not scaled. He is now 5/7/9
Green Lich was not limited from leveling

HU08

Normal

+3 Giant Skeleton Warriors at Graveyards

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades, Disease Cloud
+1 Abomination at first encounter
+2 Abominations at second encounter
+2 Abominations at third encounter
+2 Nerubian Seers at Nerubian village
+7 Giant Skeleton Warriors at Graveyard

All difficulties

Gold mine scales: 12500/9000/6000

HU09

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades, Disease Cloud
Escort for guantlet reduced to 1 Knight and 1 Rifleman
Purple starts with 1 more Graveyard

All difficulties

Green

Pre-sword

Wave 1 Timing M8,M8,M7 -> M8,M6,M3
Wave 2 Timing **M10,M10,M7 -> M10,M7,M4
Wave 3 Timing M8,M8,M7 -> M8,M6,M4
Wave 4 Timing M10,M10,M7 -> M10,M7,M4
Wave 5 Timing M8,M8,M7 -> M8,M6,M4
Wave 6 Timing M10,M10,M7 -> M10,M7,M4
Wave 9+ Timing M8,M8,M7 -> M8,M6,M4
M10,M10,M7 -> M10,M7,M4

After the Sword

Wave 9+ Timing after sword

Purple

M10,M10,M8 -> M10,M8,M6
M10,M10,M9 -> M10,M8,M7
M10,M10,M8 -> M10,M8,M6
M10,M10,M9 -> M10,M8,M7
No more than 2 Meat Wagons per wave
The AI was stacking wait times for wave 1 after the sword. There is now an attack wave immediately after the cutscene from all three directions of small forces
Mal'Ganis was Level 9 on all difficulties, he's now 8/9/10
Mal'Ganis is now warped away when he's close to death rather than being killable outright on attack waves
Main gold mine reduced from 30,000 to 30000/10000/7000
Golem mine reduced from 15000 to 8000
Green expo mine reduced from 25000 to 12500
Purple mine reduced from 25000 to 12500
Three extra Scout Towers provided. On Easy they are Cannon Towers.
Green no longer has infinite gold. Instead it normally harvests and is supplemented by the smaller Western UD base.

Bugs

Mal'Ganis was missing two of his abilities
AI's would only rebuild some buildings at some difficulty levels, and there were duplicate entries.
Teal's AI was non-functional due to missing starting lumber

Undead

UD01

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades
-1 Ghoul, -1 Skeleton Warrior at the Graveyard

UD02

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades
+3 Mud Golems at golem field
Gold mine reduced from 50,000 to 20,000

UD03

Normal

There is now a timer that destroys the treelines restricting the AI at 6m
Yellow and teal AI's will send small attack forces

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades
There is now a timer that destroys the treelines restricting the AI at 3m
Yellow and teal AI's will send small attack forces
Starting gold mine reduced from 13000 to 7000
Natural expansion gold mine reduced from 15000 to 6000
Two small outposts added on the way to Farstriders base

All difficulties

Expansion mines default to 12500

Bugs

Normal handicap trigger was disabled
Escaping rapidly could break the opening camera

UD04

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades
Main mine gold reduced from 14500 to 11000
Sylvanas is level 8 and has Starfall
+2 Earth Fury towers at each Magic Vault

All difficulties

Expansion mines set to 12500

UD05

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades
Sylvanas is level 8 and has Starfall
Main gold mine reduced from 14000 to 8000
Expansion gold mine reduced from 20000 to 12500
Zeppelin drops include a level 6 Rock Golem

All difficulties

+4 Moss Covered Granite Golems at Sunwell
Sunstrider Isle revised, removed Waygates, +1 Wagon with Potion of Mana
Fountain of Power replaced with Fountain of Health
City revised to be more city-y
Side quest clarification
Prevent all runners from reaching Silvermoon before breaching the city
In connection with lore you'll now see the Dead Scar after the Ice Bridge cinematic

Bugs

Rapidly escaping the intro could break the camera
Rushing to the city could result in both failing and completing the optional quest

UD06

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades, and Spiked Barricades
Enemy heroes start with +2 levels and all have their ultimates
Teal attack force attacks immediately after the intro cutscene
Main gold mine reduced from 18000 to 8000
Red AI is enabled with all the others, the first wave you face will be two Red Dragons

Bug fixes

Enemy heroes were not experience locked
Enemy AI's would not rebuild and were not configured for different difficulties

UD07

Hard

Pain field damage increased from 15/18/21 to 20/25/30
Main gold mine reduced from 12500 to 8000
Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades, Storm Hammers, and Defend

All difficulties

1 Crypt replaced with 1 Slaughterhouse

UD08

Hard

Enemy AI starts with level 1 Armor and weapon upgrades, Storm Hammers, Flying Machine Bombs, and Defend
Main gold mine reduced from 14000 to 8000
Expansion gold mine reduced from 12500 to 10000
Starting resources reduced by 50%

All difficulties

Start with Black Citadel
Expansion gold mine reduced from 25000 to 12500

Bug fixes

Archmagi could be level 1 due to order of operations in triggers

Orc

Orc01

Hard

Tauren have level 1 attack and armor upgrades instead of level 3's. Normal and Story Mode unchanged.
-1 Headhunter at first ship
-1 Grunt at second ship

All difficulties

Level 1 attack and armor upgrades, Brute Strength, and Troll Regeneration no longer researched for the player except on Story Mode
All rescuable Tauren have 4x starting HP % to make them attempting to rescue them less frustrating

Orc02

Hard

-2 starting Headhunters
-1 Grunt reinforcement
-1 Raider reinforcement
-1 Demolisher reinforcement

All difficulties

Upgrades match Orc01

Orc03

Hard

AI build one extra of their primary unit composition production building
Purple initial delay reduced from 2 to 1 minute
Main mine reduced from 21,000 to 10,000
Enemy AI start with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades

All difficulties

AI attack frequency reduced by 1 minute on Normal and Hard
AI will now rebuild on Normal and Hard
Grommash will now begin his attack timer after the mid custscene rather than waiting until the Great Hall is completed
Expansion mines reduced from 22100-24000 to 12500
Main mine reduced from 21,000 to 14,000 on Easy and Normal
Thralls VO indicated there should have been a way to complete the main quest without attacking the Humans. There is now a hidden path with a special surprise.

Orc04

Hard

Reduced attack intervals for all AI by 1 minute
Other than Ai attack timing there was no Hard mode at all
Enemy AI start with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades
West expansion gold mine reduced from 40000 to 20000

Orc05

Hard

Main mine reduced from 20000 to 9000
Expansion mine reduced from 12500 to 10000
Enemy AI start with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades

All difficulties

Main mine reduced from 30000 to 20000
Expansion mine reduced from 20000 to 12500

Orc06

Hard

Enemy AI start with level 1 armor and weapon upgrades
Main mine reduced from 14000 to 9000
Expansion mine reduced from 18000 to 12500

All difficulties

Main mine reduced from 22500 to 14000
Expansion mine reduced from 25000 to 18000
AI was not configured to rebuild
Map route is not revealed where the Zeppelin was in the intro cutscene

Bugs

Main gold mine and harvested amount varied based on how long you watched the intro

Orc07

Hard

Human Enemy AI start with level 1 weapon and armor upgrades

All difficulties

Remove revealed area from intro cinematic

Orc08

Easy

+2 Guard Towers at Jaina
+3 Watch Towers at player base
Jaina starts with level 1 armor, weapon, and magic upgrades

Normal

+2 Guard Towers at Jaina
+3 Watch Towers at player base

Hard

Main mine reduced from 20000 to 14,000
Expansion mines reduced from to 9000

All difficulties

Main mine reduced from 30000 to 20000
Expansion mines reduced from to 12500 (including Jaina's mine)
Legacy Infernal wave restored
If a player did not complete the optional quest in Orc06 they will get the new unit message for Wyvern

Bugs

Dark Green's AI was not given starting resources so it could not build anything requiring lumber
There was a mix of Fel and standard Burrows for both Orc AI, and they were missing Fel Burrows from their build tree resulting in being unable to rebuild food production
Jaina AI was not rebuilding most of her base, and would never utilize Gryphons
Skipping the intro rapidly could break the camera

Night Elf

NE01

Hard

There was no Hard mode
Enemy AI start with level 1 weapon and armor upgrades
Enemy AI attack timer starts after the intro instead of upon completing the base building quest
Main gold mine reduced from 12500 to 9000
Expansion gold mines reduced from 12500 to 8000
Enemy AI was not configured to rebuild

NE02

Hard

Enemy AI start with level 1 weapon and armor upgrades
-2 Archers at 1st reinforcement
-1 Huntress at 2nd reinforcement
-1 Huntresses at 3rd reinforcement
-1 Glaive Throwers at final reinforcement
-2 Archers at final reinforcement
Secret path must be entered from second entrance
1 Abomination and 2 Crypt Fends greet you on the secret path

All difficulties

Replace Human bridge with Elven bridge
AI was not reacting or rebuilding
AI will now protect itself when the Ziggurat near secret entrance 2 is attacked
Triggers for the timed moonlight/sunlight weren't working correctly, they are meant to signal day/night shift

Bugs

One of Green's buildings was owned by an enemy and would be killed immediately at game start

NE03

Hard

Enemy AI start with level 1 weapon and armor upgrades
Main gold mine reduced from 14500 to 9000
Expansion gold mines reduced from 12500 to 8000
Wave 1 attack time reduced from 4 to 2 minutes
Following waves reduced from 4 to 3 minutes

All difficulties

Replace 1 Murloc Nightcrawler with Puddle Lord Envoy (Murloc Flesheater) at Murloc island - Reference to UDx03

Bugs

Trigger to detect Guardian deaths did not filter out corpses so a player may need to wait 60 seconds after killing the last Guardian before the outro starts

NE04

Normal

No longer remove 2 Cannon Towers

Hard

Enemy AI start with level 1 weapon, armor, and magic upgrades
Corrupted NE
Second wave is 1 minute faster
Plague Treants added to attack waves

All difficulties

Human and Corrupted NE AI's would not rebuild, and Corrupted NE could not repair

NE05

Hard

No longer have level 1 armor upgrades
-3 Archers at prison rescue

All difficulties

Circles of Power at gate turn blue once activated
Gates "explode" in correct directions
Outro scene part 2 no longer shows the gate opening and units being placed. There's also 1 DoC removed to better frame MalFurion.

NE06

Hard

Enemy AI start with level 1 weapon and armor upgrades
Plague Treants included in attack waves
All brown attack waves 2 minutes faster
Reduce Southern expansion mine from 10000 to 6000
Reduce Northern expansion mine from 12500 to 9000
Reduce main mine from 14000 to 9000

All difficulties

AI now rebuilds besides Tree of Eternities
Reduce Southern expansion mine from 17500 to 10000
Reduce Northern expansion mine from 23500 to 12500
Reduce main mine from 18500 to 14000

Bugs

Brown AI had a double wave in the beginning
Illidan no longer has cinematic anims after intro

NE07

Hard

Enemy AI start with level 1 weapon, armor, and magic upgrades
Main and two expansion mine gold amounts reduced by 50%

All difficulties

Friendly AI would not rebuild
Chimaeras available

TFT

Remove handicaps from Normal and Hard
Give enemy AI +1 upgrades on Hard
Reduce available gold on Hard

Legacy Note:

HUX02 - Part 1 advancing forces had +3 upgrades
HUX03 - Enemy units had +3 attack upgrades
NEX03 - Siren training was at +2
NEX06 - End UD forces had +2 upgrades
NEX08 - Enemy units had +3 upgrades
UDX01 - Enemy units had +3 upgrades
UDX02 - Enemy units had +2 upgrades
UDX03 - Was missing Hard mode
UDX04 - Main Human base has +3 building armor
 

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Last edited:
Level 2
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
9
No detailed TFT changes, because they’ve already abandoned the game at that point?
 
Level 2
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
9
What about that RoC NE mission where you have to wake up Furion: on hard difficulty it was broken (or intended?) and you basically had to rush through the orc base losing most of the units in order to save him in time. At least that was in the original game, don't know about the Reforged.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,524
This is pretty cool, man. I appreciate your insight & continued involvement, however remote, in the Patching process.

Definitions:

Easy (Story Mode)

Players should require minimal RTS experience
One hand rule
Players should be allowed to make many mistakes and recover
Experiencing the cutscenes, scripted gameplay moments, and plot are the priority
Attack move is expected

Normal

Players should be allowed to make mistakes with minimal punishment
Players should be using their keyboard to build and use unit abilities
Attack move is expected

Hard

Players should be punished for mistakes
Bosses and similar pivotal gameplay moments should be memorable due to how hard they are, while remaining interesting
Players will be expected to use most of the tools at their disposal to complete a mission
Targeting individual units by priority is expected
"Gold Stress" should come into play, meaning the player should feel as though they need to expand at some point rather than relying on a single mine without concern
These are very intriguing to me, could you talk more about it? "One-hand rule" & all that. It's a cool way to think about it that I see in more modern games (e.g. Easy Mode => "Story Mode", so people don't feel bad & also to correctly understand the expectations on the player (i.e. none)).
 
This is pretty cool, man. I appreciate your insight & continued involvement, however remote, in the Patching process.


These are very intriguing to me, could you talk more about it? "One-hand rule" & all that. It's a cool way to think about it that I see in more modern games (e.g. Easy Mode => "Story Mode", so people don't feel bad & also to correctly understand the expectations on the player (i.e. none)).
Sure!

The one hand rule means that you expect the player to only use the mouse.
  • This could be out of preference
    • Many people simply want to relax at the end of a day.
  • The result of a mobility issue
    • As War3 has no accessibility features this was a way for me to provide a better experience for that group of players.
Until applied I did not consciously think about how often I use hotkeys and control groups. Try it sometime.

Normal was the baseline balance for each mission. The legacy maps used handicaps for balance but my opinion is that it leads to confusion later when a unit you could previously kill with a specific spell suddenly lives. I instead went with using the built in upgrades and adding/removing units so that you can see at a glance what the actual changes are. Where as an area on Story Mode might have one enemy there are five on Hard, and so on.

Other significant issues were that some of the legacy maps were missing difficulty modes all together, and in many cases AI scripts were simply broken. This was clearly not intentional as the scripts would call for tech to be trained/researched that wasn't even available.

Finally I wanted the difficulty curve to be such that missions in each campaign became harder gradually and consistently. Even within Story Mode the missions will become more difficult over the camapign (but not terribly so).
 
Level 2
Joined
Jun 15, 2022
Messages
6
One of my biggest gripes with the Reforged Campaign was Silvermoon city... super glad that it finally looks like a proper city. Maybe it could use a few more doodads, but that's being nit-picky. And the Dead Scar? Chef's kiss.

I hope that in the future we can get a specific change regarding Sylvanas in UD04. In UD05 she flees from every fight once her HP gets low (in order to save her "death" for the lore cutscene later on) but in UD04 you can just kill her normally and she'll resurrect at her base. Making her flee in UD04 would make it fully consistent with UD05, and further reinforce the idea that she's a nuisance to Arthas.
 
One of my biggest gripes with the Reforged Campaign was Silvermoon city... super glad that it finally looks like a proper city. Maybe it could use a few more doodads, but that's being nit-picky. And the Dead Scar? Chef's kiss.

I hope that in the future we can get a specific change regarding Sylvanas in UD04. In UD05 she flees from every fight once her HP gets low (in order to save her "death" for the lore cutscene later on) but in UD04 you can just kill her normally and she'll resurrect at her base. Making her flee in UD04 would make it fully consistent with UD05, and further reinforce the idea that she's a nuisance to Arthas.
I'm glad to hear you enjoy the edits!

I think if you play UD04 you'll find that logic present. =)
 
Level 18
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
804
Is 1.33 just going to be a campaign update, or will there be a bunch of technical fixes too? I've heard rumors but I don't know much for sure.

There are certain technical fixes that I won't even consider going to RF until they're implemented. Stuff like an opt-out for installing HD assets, for example.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,524
Sure!

The one hand rule means that you expect the player to only use the mouse.
  • This could be out of preference
    • Many people simply want to relax at the end of a day.
  • The result of a mobility issue
    • As War3 has no accessibility features this was a way for me to provide a better experience for that group of players.
Until applied I did not consciously think about how often I use hotkeys and control groups. Try it sometime.
Oh no, I actually know very well what you're talking about; I've never been a very good player, and aside from a few control groups/A-to-attack, I basically only use my mouse. xD

Kam said:
Normal was the baseline balance for each mission. The legacy maps used handicaps for balance but my opinion is that it leads to confusion later when a unit you could previously kill with a specific spell suddenly lives. I instead went with using the built in upgrades and adding/removing units so that you can see at a glance what the actual changes are. Where as an area on Story Mode might have one enemy there are five on Hard, and so on.
See that's thoughtful. And kinda subtle to notice but I like it.
 
Level 2
Joined
Jul 28, 2017
Messages
4
The Silvermoon updates are insane ! Do you know if other missions will get updated as well ? Like Lordeaeron or Dalaran ?
 
The Silvermoon updates are insane ! Do you know if other missions will get updated as well ? Like Lordeaeron or Dalaran ?

Do you mean from where they currently are on 1.32?

Many maps saw smaller terrain updates including Dalaran in the 1.33 PTR. I would not expect further campaign updates.
 
Level 9
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
275
I don't like it when AI uses cheating or/and an Artificial perk.
Leaving the challenges with logic and sense makes the game more fun.

In Age of Empires 2 I play on standard difficulty, to read and listen to dialogue, watch events and concrete the history and tales of the Campaigns. Because if I increased the difficulty, I wouldn't be able to pay attention to these details.
 
Level 2
Joined
Jun 15, 2022
Messages
6
Do you mean from where they currently are on 1.32?

Many maps saw smaller terrain updates including Dalaran in the 1.33 PTR. I would not expect further campaign updates.

Excellent, I was hoping Dalaran would get a few touch-ups too. Overall, the Reforged UD07 had some very fun and creative design, but the biggest issue was the lack of difficulty. Thankfully, as per your log, the difficulty has been boosted.

It's truly baffling that this patch -- most of which was already completed -- never saw the light of day until now. It solves almost all issues with the Campaign, and all this time it was sitting inside Blizzard's files.

Regarding "further campaign updates" -- you mean updates within future patches that are (supposedly) coming later this year? Because if that's the case, it's a real shame.

I honestly don't care about the 2018 style cutscenes -- I disliked them anyway -- but what I was always hoping to see was more updates to unique animations. Arthas' Frostmourne scenes are an amazing example of what unique animations can do, and there's plenty of key lore moments that could use them.
 
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Excellent, I was hoping Dalaran would get a few touch-ups too. Overall, the Reforged UD07 had some very fun and creative design, but the biggest issue was the lack of difficulty. Thankfully, as per your log, the difficulty has been boosted.

It's truly baffling that this patch -- most of which was already completed -- never saw the light of day until now. It solves almost all issues with the Campaign, and all this time it was sitting inside Blizzard's files.

Regarding "further campaign updates" -- you mean updates within future patches that are (supposedly) coming later this year? Because if that's the case, it's a real shame.

I honestly don't care about the 2018 style cutscenes -- I disliked them anyway -- but what I was always hoping to see was more updates to unique animations. Arthas' Frostmourne scenes are an amazing example of what unique animations can do, and there's plenty of key lore moments that could use them.

I'm glad you're looking forward to playing! Let me know how it goes.

I have to ask....
Were any Easter eggs added to the campaign levels? :grin:

Sure were (not many)! Good luck hunting.
 
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Gamebreaking bug on Blackrock and Roll human Ch2 Hard Mode

Clicking any portrait for all 3 black dragon types crashes game.
Searnox auto dialogue when you engage also crashes the game

sidequest impossible as a result
@Kam

also reported here with another bug
 
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Gamebreaking bug on Blackrock and Roll human Ch2 Hard Mode

Clicking any portrait for all 3 black dragon types crashes game.
Searnox auto dialogue when you engage also crashes the game

sidequest impossible as a result
@Kam

Unfortunately that is an art bug and not anything to do with the map. Portraits have been updated in 1.33.
 
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A new and TFT comparable difficulty for RoC in Hard is the best thing blizzard could add to reforged IMO outside returning missing features.

The murlocs appear to have far better HP values in Ch5 Prologue the map had a better HARD difficulty.

Ch 1 and 2 felt better as hard on Exodus of the horde with the additional units.

Ch3 Green Kul Tiras enemy VS blue and them rebuilding towers was noticeable.

Far FAR more orcs in CH1 human made me have to use a mana potions for the first time ever.
in addition to their 1/1 upgrades

I plan to test this campaign and get it fixed like i did dozens of chapters the LAST time this series was getting patched when i Helped fix : March of the Scourge, Twilight of the Gods, A New Power in Lordaeron, and a handful of others. Since I likely considerably will notice any changes or faulty AI or anything new far better than most in the campaign as evidenced by the Reforged Release patch cycles. I do NOT want this campaign to have anything broken when it's ultimately left behind again.

I Need a workaround for these dragon portraits asap however.
 
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@Kam

Temporary workaround discovered.

Make a tower on the path to the gnoll warden near the dragon cave it lures seronix to the entrance make towers at the cave entrance Towers kills him without triggering his dialogue and portrait Quest COMPLETED.

Just gotta wait on portrait fixes.

When you run into this the cause is you seeing the affected art asset. It was a common issue with the new portraits.
 
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Well done because the balance of the campaign was broken:

Reforged Hard 2 years ago


Old Warcraft 3, I don't know what level of difficulty is maybe normal
3:10-3:35 the orcs will already destroy the tower and attack our base
There are two orc attacks in 5 minutes.

Hope that has been corrected too.
 
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@Kam

The Culling Ch6

The changes they made to make Salramm the Fleshcrafter to AoE he also no longer drops of circlet of nobility.
The 5 Milita does not count towards kills anymore and I hardlocked myself to finishing the mission with malganis 99 me 96 without those 5 militia men counting

Difficulty:

Ch3 had a nice endbattle at the grain warehouse and the hero kelthuzad battle in Ch4 cult of the damned was excellent as was the abominations being added to the enemy attack rotation before ch5.

Ch5 march of the Scourge. I saw that the attack waves were toned down in frequency and size. Green Lich is no lvl 6 not lvl 10 the center entrance to the base was removed and going by river no longer aggros zigguarat it is now further inside.

Overall Excellent changes but the culling bug is another one that needs fixed with the next update along with Black Dragon Portaits crashing.
 

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Level 14
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871
Sylvanas using Starfall when you jusst have necros and ghouls and Chimera in Hyjal are legitimate grievences not only can they explode the demon base their splash magic with T3 trueshoot Deletes Doom Guards, Felhounds, Abombs, casters, and heroes. ALthough I suppose in Classic RoC Piercing fulfilled Magics Role in melting Heavy Armor

Plus several Hero having blank names

a blanket +1 wpn +1 armor across entire game too isn't the best route design could of taken.
 
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Will the bugs aleast be fixed some npcs have a Blank name after update, the Giant Elven Gate with the rescueable trolls needs realigned its faceing Verticle not Horizontal. All black dragons portraits are broken and crash game, Cinematics crash the game when they end, and as above the Culling now has a hardlock bug because its missing 5 kill counts now.

and Lip sync is broken on most of the portraits. no moving mouth

A lot of the changes are great like Blackrock and Roll Too! the 2 farseer heroes are now Warlock Models fitting the Blackrock Clan.
and you have all 3 Named Captins on the Frostmourn Chapter.

and I noticed the Wrath fo the Betrayer TFT NE mission was fixed from a bug i reported back during previous patches the south naga base can now attack and isnt stuck inside from doodads.

To me the new difficulty mode makes this a far more compelling purchase for a longtime fan. All we are hoping for is squashed bugs and hopefully official Custom Campaign integration.


I kinda wish the campaign would be updated to reflect the new changed item power and tooltips. old fans know what 4/4 stat items and +6 claws are but in campaign they are 5/5 and +5s now but still give old numbers. obviously if one cant be changed without affecting the other id just retune campaign numbers for those items so the tooltips arent out of whack. nitpicky i know.
 
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Will the bugs aleast be fixed some npcs have a Blank name after update, the Giant Elven Gate with the rescueable trolls needs realigned its faceing Verticle not Horizontal. All black dragons portraits are broken and crash game, Cinematics crash the game when they end, and as above the Culling now has a hardlock bug because its missing 5 kill counts now.

and Lip sync is broken on most of the portraits. no moving mouth

A lot of the changes are great like Blackrock and Roll Too! the 2 farseer heroes are now Warlock Models fitting the Blackrock Clan.
and you have all 3 Named Captins on the Frostmourn Chapter.

and I noticed the Wrath fo the Betrayer TFT NE mission was fixed from a bug i reported back during previous patches the south naga base can now attack and isnt stuck inside from doodads.

To me the new difficulty mode makes this a far more compelling purchase for a longtime fan. All we are hoping for is squashed bugs and hopefully official Custom Campaign integration.


I kinda wish the campaign would be updated to reflect the new changed item power and tooltips. old fans know what 4/4 stat items and +6 claws are but in campaign they are 5/5 and +5s now but still give old numbers. obviously if one cant be changed without affecting the other id just retune campaign numbers for those items so the tooltips arent out of whack. nitpicky i know.

I’m not sure what attention the campaign will have. Fortunately the crash bugs are unrelated to maps (they are art related) and will probably be fixed.

The unit data stats were always frozen off from melee but otherwise it was beyond my scope - it’s an update worth doing though for consistency. Again this is probably beyond what is planned.

That gate is an interesting bug as it recurred often and I believe is related to the art exporter.

I do remember fixing that doodad issue preventing the AI from working. There were a surprising number of legacy maps with similar pathing issues.
 
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Ill give a chapter by chapter breakdown soon. As even a different unit or different attack wave comps i would notice.

For prologue 5 saw the 20% health hanficap removed on enemies and all your buildings start at 20% hp

I noticed the hp buffs on buildings and enemys when i barely able to clear entire map when i used to have 4 to 5 minutes to spare

Murgul sorcerors 1k hp vs 800. 800hp golems vs 600 ypu feel that fortified armor. Murloc buildinga and tidal guardians 800-900 hp vs 600-700

It felt like hardmode again and my towers were entirely useless

Comp used to clear map creeps and 5 bases

30. 3/3 Grunts.


Good update
 
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I am really disappointed by the changes made prior to the campaing and my bad feelings seems to be right also in this time: you only succeed to make the campaing more frustrating - not rewarding..

Forexample the culling- so called gem of the current age developers is nothing but a boring and angry mess that is nothing like it originally were. In the new version of the culling the split fight vs archimonde and base defence is boring as hell and with hard more its frustrating to max. I have never get so angry playing single player campaing than with the new release of culling ( I feel like the game developer goal is actually to make me rage).

I think everyplayer wants to see their progression to the past - not ever increasing difficult. (most players play campaing to chill not to fight for their lives). Not to mention you can still cheat ur way to victory so portraits mean nothing. I hate you guys so much (who made these changes) its unreal.

I think these guys act like they some great game developers when they are not- infact their changes seem to drift the game into more into messy and wrong direction, besides this reforged thing is really bad: you should first learn to make new campaing missions which are fun and then consider making small changes to mission made by wc3 masters (makers of classic version of the game). Now you took quick path into game making by just making random and irritating changes which you think are good.
 
Ill give a chapter by chapter breakdown soon. As even a different unit or different attack wave comps i would notice.

For prologue 5 saw the 20% health hanficap removed on enemies and all your buildings start at 20% hp

I noticed the hp buffs on buildings and enemys when i barely able to clear entire map when i used to have 4 to 5 minutes to spare

Murgul sorcerors 1k hp vs 800. 800hp golems vs 600 ypu feel that fortified armor. Murloc buildinga and tidal guardians 800-900 hp vs 600-700

It felt like hardmode again and my towers were entirely useless

Comp used to clear map creeps and 5 bases

30. 3/3 Grunts.


Good update

PR05 was one my favorite end battles. The building damage and looming volcano create tension.

When you play your next mission would you mind also playing it on Story Mode and providing feedback on the difference?
 
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PR05 was one my favorite end battles. The building damage and looming volcano create tension.

When you play your next mission would you mind also playing it on Story Mode and providing feedback on the difference?

So a lot of mission dont have music play i assume this wont be the case on live?

What are you looking for in Story Mode because i was able to clear creeps/bases on countdown, March of the Scourge, Culling, and Last undead mission timed maps. First two being easier in reforged last two being considerably harder in reforged.

Arr you going for engaging gameplay for beginners or people that just want to see the story with minimal pushback?
 
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Music is broken on PTR.
So in trgards to Story Mode what are you looking for. As I'm most definetly not it's audience but i should be able to gauge it. Honestly vanilla normal was easy enough for me at 12 years old in 02 but eh..

Ch1 double the orcs need to use the perenold heal ward and spread damage among footmen wisely.

Ch2 more units nothing really changes

Ch3 grain warehouse fight at brill. Huge upgrade with 3X the units and of course their 1/1 upgrades

Ch4 Cult base having Abomvs makes this a better chapter. Kt bossfight Vastly improved.

Ch5 human. MEAT wagons getting axed for majority of waves and reconfiguring the green base layout I apprrciate.

Ch6 culling was already upgraded when they statted porting purple to your base in a refotged patch. sala fleshcrafter boss did noticeable amounts of damage had to be careful so a knight didnt get to low to be nuked by finger of pain.

I also appteciate Ch7 Human green undead base getting an upgrade along with its previously weak lich.

Ch8 Abombs and more units added across map makes this a much better map cant just Clap everything down with Muridan anymore.


CH9 malganis having Infernal and Vamp aura is nice. Having the green expo being more involved is an upgrade
 
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So a lot of mission dont have music play i assume this wont be the case on live?

What are you looking for in Story Mode because i was able to clear creeps/bases on countdown, March of the Scourge, Culling, and Last undead mission timed maps. First two being easier in reforged last two being considerably harder in reforged.

Arr you going for engaging gameplay for beginners or people that just want to see the story with minimal pushback?

For SM I'm interested in you trying it only using a mouse and seeing how it feels to you. The primary goal is minimal pushback.
 
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Level 14
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Messages
871
Only a mouse. Ahhhhhh
So no control groups? Or shift logging multiple worker tasks

Whats the ETA on 1.33 bring live? 2 weeks? 2 months?

I am really disappointed by the changes made prior to the campaing and my bad feelings seems to be right also in this time: you only succeed to make the campaing more frustrating - not rewarding..

Forexample the culling- so called gem of the current age developers is nothing but a boring and angry mess that is nothing like it originally were. In the new version of the culling the split fight vs archimonde and base defence is boring as hell and with hard more its frustrating to max. I have never get so angry playing single player campaing than with the new release of culling ( I feel like the game developer goal is actually to make me rage).

I think everyplayer wants to see their progression to the past - not ever increasing difficult. (most players play campaing to chill not to fight for their lives). Not to mention you can still cheat ur way to victory so portraits mean nothing. I hate you guys so much (who made these changes) its unreal.

I think these guys act like they some great game developers when they are not- infact their changes seem to drift the game into more into messy and wrong direction, besides this reforged thing is really bad: you should first learn to make new campaing missions which are fun and then consider making small changes to mission made by wc3 masters (makers of classic version of the game). Now you took quick path into game making by just making random and irritating changes which you think are good.
The culling to me is a huge improvement over the original and the purple base design is also better laod out. No health well shakes things up def need priests now but if i can manage to destroy purple on hard just killing 100 civillians shouldnt be an issue.

Malganis can be soloed by arthas everytime if you invest in divine shield or dont kills civs until u get a decent force and his group wont gain in size. Simple as

If you wanna chill out with no challenge story mode is there Thats the point.

The only legitimate gripe I have with reforged campaign is no death knight model which is bad in TFT when you fight death kngiths using arthas skin.

Meanwhile there are a dozen paladin and half dozen dreadlord models.

Would it be possible to set the campaign skins to yhe DK female

Judging by how the edited the blackrock clan heroes to remove farseers and featuring all the human lore captains I would think this falls in line with something that should be high priority for reforged. @Kam

I was also kind of hoping we could get an orb for arthas in Path of the Damned. Artbas fights legions of air units and is the only campaign and only hero who has no way to attack air. Pandaren Relaxation area would of been a perfect opportunity or hidden in woods on any quel'thalas level, silvermoon wagon caches ehich are filled with complete junk consumables or even dalaran. I would really like to see an Orb of Corruption, Shadow, slow, or Frost from any of these sources.

I mean you guys added a treeline "need" catapults. And a treasure wagon to hold a potion of mana. The most basic of items on a map that has a shop.

We loot 0 Spoils from the Silvermoon Map in its entirety.

Even removing the rescueable trolls on the other side of the francy new custom bridge having a side path with an archmage and some granite golems guardian a treasure cache with Treasure would be a large upgrade. Silvermoon is a pretty map but there is no justification to find all the hidden loot scattered around because its bottom tier in value and every single undead missions have shops to buy those hidden 200gold consumables.

Scattering crates in the mix of all the pretty doodads with consmables or tomes would be another altenative.

We see this as a common trend on all all TFT campaigns.
 
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#Update

Quel'Thalas undead chapters..... I am at a loss for words.

Sylvanas has been removed from all maps once you fight her ONCE she will be ported into a treeline somewhere on map and be invulnerable and windwalk in some convoluted lore reason to not "kill her" before her death in the Silvermoon chapter..... IN AN RTS. this same thing happened to Mal'ganis on the Frostmourn map he would demonic summon at 30% hp to Green Allied Gnomish Flying machine in its own little pocket lockation and won't res if you kill him at his base.

Why is this even a thing.

Mal'ganis teleport and Sylvanas teleport and dissappearance on Ch3 and Ch4 undead need to be reverted as soon as possible.

Many levels are significantly easier now. March of the Scourge (HearthGlen) you get no wagons sent after you and Green base is much easier to attack with 1 large entrance on the east now and lvl 6 (was 10) lich.

Everything on Hard(Brutal?? / Easier??) mode 1.33


** Redemption Silvermoon is a great difficulty upgrade lvl 8 sylvanas and lvl 7 archmage attack you and sylvanas attacks with double stone golems with reduced gold u barely have enough to field an army to fight silvermoon even having 0 upkeep till mine dead.

Significant upgrade
 

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