Criminy, you guys are fast... I'm sorry, I
am working on a response to your remarks Pharaoh, but I had to get my car towed. This evening (& weekend) is busy, but if worse comes to worse just copy/paste the appropriate sections (
"Racial-Altar" Themed,
"Solo (In-Game Resources)" Styled). I can come back after the weekend and fix the bits that were intentionally left out.
~~~
Not going to join the argument. I'm only a fetus. But anyways, please start a contest soon.
Oh nonsense; please do! I don't want to monopolize this thread with just the two of us, and I'd love to have some outside input. Am I crazy? What're the pros and cons, as you see them? I honestly feel I am doing this for the betterment of these contests & this site, but I've been wrong before. : )
Well, you are using a custom criteria table. I was using labels from the previous Hero Contests. Why is it that you have changed them?
That is true; I hope others (have) notice(d) as well. I have changed them because I feel that the Hero Contests in the past have been, well, lacking. Lacking in direction, lacking in clear & concise guidelines... Now I'm not saying they were 'failures' or 'lame overall' or anything. I mean, we're not talking about "no one joined" or "all the entries stunk"; that's obviously false. Plenty of people joined, had fun, made some cool stuff.
However, looking back at nearly every Contest that matters most to me (Hero, Zephyr, Techtree, etc), I have noticed a string of poor choices in terms of contest design & parameters. As I've said many times, look at the last Hero Contest; it left much to be desired in terms of such design parameters (what kind of hero, the map to build on, judging criteria, etc). I'm speaking both as an outside observer (watching the contest start & trying to help make it better) and as an insider, a contestant (trying to perform in the contest, doing 'ok' but totally being buried by the lack of certain standards).
I decided that instead of sitting around & griping pointlessly, annoying everyone each time a contest came around, I would take the initiative & take a positive approach; provide an alternative that (I feel) addresses the concerns I've been raising for years now.
Pharaoh said:
What does wc3c have to do with the criteria of Hive's Arena? We were using the old criteria table for the previous one and we had 28 entries (which I think was a record for this type of contest). Most of all, I fail to see how wc3c having had 3 hero contests overall would constitute the 'norm' - because they were infrequent, people were starving to participate.
I'm not sure where I talked about the "constituting the 'norm'"...
However, I suppose the point is, it shouldn't matter
where an idea comes from,
if it is good. If I was on a forum for a book series, or a popular hair-care product, and I saw them running a contest in a good way, it would make sense to, perhaps, 'take a leaf from their book'. How would I know it was good? Because I can see the fruits (whether that contest is successful).
And in my opinion, those three contests (which, yes, happen to be at Wc3C) are
excellent examples of how a Hero Contest can be run, with some of the best & most creative work to come out of Wc3 Modding to date. It's not just about the number of entries, but the quality of the entries, as well as the ease, equity & excitement with which the judging/voting is done.
Pharaoh said:
I only used faction, because it was your latest description of what this contest is about. If you want to make a clear distinction between race and faction, then you should change the title (because a) it's unclear at the moment ...
A) That is a fair point. Unfortunately the terminology is so stuck for most people...
Technically all this stuff should be a "Faction-Creation Contest", or perhaps a "Techtree Contest". Even (my vaunted) Wc3C gave it the silly title "Race-Building Contest" (some were building just one race (most even), but not all). (holy cow, I'm really getting myself into trouble, trying to start up 2 contests like this in such short order... I'm getting them all confused
).
Technically it should be a "Make a Hero for this Faction" Contest, essentially; however, we are all so 'stuck' & used to using "Race" for the 4
Races (there we go again) Factions of regular melee/ladder/in-game/standard (<- there's
another term we all use interchangeably, but isn't) Wc3, that I generally just stick with what people know & say "Racial".
Besides, you of
all people should know the name isn't set in stone. : / Didn't you change the name of the Modeling Contest I hosted?
Pharaoh said:
...and b) WarCraft melee is not based on factions - it is based on races).
B) !!!
I'm sorry,
what? I'm not sure that could be more incorrect. If you can name
one of Warcraft's 'playable 4' that is made up of merely one 'race', I'll step down (and "Undead" doesn't count as a race : )...).
Warcraft 3 is
based off the concept, idea, and paradigm of "Factions"; groups of individuals
from different races banded together towards a common goal.
(I've done the whole "table-thing" so much lately, I'll refrain for the sake of time. But please, if you're interested, hit me up; I'd love to go into more detail & discussion about this topic).
Humans & Orcs are the most obvious in this, with an obvious "main race" and 2 obvious "sub-races" (2 heroes per main-race, 1 per sub-race). Undead are a little trickier, but they
do have "Living/Cult-members/Lost Souls", "True Undead", "Demons" and "Nerubians", where the Night Elves have "Night Elves (Male & Female are almost different enough for races...)" and "Woodland Creatures/Spirits".
Pharaoh said:
Your description is contradicting; you say that neutral races are out of question, but a hybrid neutral one isn't. Don't you see that people will take advantage of this and ultimately include neutrals, which again allows any race, which by extension takes us back to what I was saying:...
I apologize if I contradicted or failed to make sense. I guess I am willing to admit that I would not be
super-stringent about this issue; Blizzard could've added the Beastmaster to the Horde quite easily, in my opinion (however, it makes just as much sense to have him
not be and be Neutral/Mercenary instead). So if someone wants to "bend" their submission a bit, eh... But I would try to discourage it. Stick to the primary 'Races' in the 4 main "Factions" (or, alternatively, stick to
any other non-Faction Race for the Tavern-one).
**this gets tricky if you say "wait, I made a Human ___; can't a Human be in the Tavern as well as the Alliance? Yeeeeeeaaaaahhh....
Pharaoh said:
...At the moment, you take something regular/expected and you turn it into a theme. This contest lacks a definition, this was my point all the way.
Well, I guess I just disagree. Or at least, I'll accept that you feel this contest's theme is a little too simple, or staid, or boring... But we've had all these crazy contests recently (sci-fi, invasion of burning legion, avatar, etc), that I feel a return to the basics will provide lots of interesting fodder regardless. More importantly, it's not "Theme-
less" as the first two Hero Contests were; it's very specifically "a hero made as an addition to the regular melee game of Warcraft 3 (either a Faction or the Tavern)". That cuts out a lot, but still leaves all of Azeroth. : )
~~~
Cokemonkey said:
I agree with you on a basis that the contest lacks a theme that defines the way the hero is played, but disagree with your explanation of why it's a poor contest theme.
Can people make essentially any hero into a hybrid-neutral/faction one? Of course they can. A dark troll can be made a horde hero just as well as dark ranger fits with horde.
This leaves lore design (and judgment criteria) to how well a contestant can define their character to a race/faction.
...
Just chill out and start the contest. No one is going to start complaining that Kibri0 made A wolf hero in the horde altar, and it totally belongs in the neutral tavern! because no one gives a shit about such pedanticism in relation to lore (because who gives a shit about lore anyway?)
Thanks for popping by. : )
I generally agree with what you're saying, except for the bit about the Lore; I'm actually
quite interested in the Lore & invested in seeing it followed. Like I said to Pharaoh, some people may stretch, but I'd like to see people work within the boundaries that are set; true creativity requires parameters. Now, will they "lose the game" if they don't? Well, nope. But hopefully Judges will take that into account (since the Criteria definitely do, at least in some small part).
Cokemonkey said:
But you're thinking of things way too conceptually. The contest is intended to measure:
1: That you can make a hero that fits thematically and conceptually into a hero tavern. Obviously wc3's lore puts beastmaster in a neutral tavern instead of an orc altar for good reason.
2: That you can make a good hero design (in terms of gameplay) that also fits his lore and appearance.
Kybri0's explanation that "Basically, a strong distinction between "Faction" and "Race" is important. Make a Hero that is of any Race in any (of the four) Faction(s)." isn't a great one, but it's good enough for me.
Lol, not great enough? What can I do better? : )
~~~
Pharaoh, I see your point; Cokemonkey said one thing but couldn't/wouldn't explain. I would say that the Theme to a Hero is very important; it should dictate the kind of spells they can use & how they look & such (things like "how they are used in gameplay" or "how well it works with other units/heroes" falls more under Role/Style to me). However, the Theme of the Contest is a different beast; it should be a concept that acts as a springboard or fount of ideas; it should provide certain parameters about what is or isn't included. The Theme of the Hero (evil undead mage; loyal human commander; crafty werewolf hunter; etc) and the Theme of the Contest (Forest-dwellers; Alliance champions; science-fiction dudes; Twisting nether Denizens; etc) are similar & important, but not necessarily the same.
