[Campaign] Wrath of Kael'thas

What needs Improvement?

  • The Story

    Votes: 17 50.0%
  • The Terrain

    Votes: 2 5.9%
  • The Spells

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • The Models

    Votes: 4 11.8%
  • The Items

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • The Gameplay

    Votes: 9 26.5%
  • The Techtree

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    34
Level 20
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Mar 28, 2015
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2,403
Did Ner'zhul disappear at all? Maybe, it's why actually Arthas was so evil or was that just his character?

I think that while Arthas became dominant, some parts of Ner'zhul remained. The same Ner'zhul that was corrupted by the Skull of Gul'dan and tortured by Kil'jaeden. So, yeah, Arthas became more evil.

The download link. Can't seem to find it anywhere.

There is none.
The campaign is still being made.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 56
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Messages
16,095
He didn't disappear. What happened was that Ner'zhul wanted to take full control of Arthas and use his body as a vessel, but instead the two clashed and it was Arthas who came out on top and subdued Ner'zhul
Weird. You'd think after how much experience Ner'zhul had as a lich and how much was Arthas under his influence (I mean he killed his father, went to Quel'thalas etc.)... but, eh.
 
Level 20
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Weird. You'd think after how much experience Ner'zhul had as a lich and how much was Arthas under his influence (I mean he killed his father, went to Quel'thalas etc.)... but, eh.

Ner'zhul was controlling Arthas through the Helm of Domination. And Arthas putted said Helm in his head, so I guess Arthas was no longer under Ner'zhul's control...
 
Level 11
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Jun 15, 2016
Messages
463
There is none.
The campaign is still being made.

Then why on earth is there a poll about what to improve? Moreover, why does it actually have votes when there is no demo, and not even screenshots?!

So I won't vote. But if I were to vote, I'd go for gameplay, as this is what so many projects are lacking. Take a little time to scroll through the first 2 pages or so of campaigns in map development, you'll see a lot of story with very little gameplay to back it up: base building maps with no computer action to speak of, traversal maps with little to no triggered event or anything special to speak of. A campaign can proceed like that for very little time until the demo is out and most discussion or anticipation it had gathered dissipates, because the maps themselves, what contains the lore and all other elements, are not interesting or fun at all.

I won't give you examples for projects dead because of those faults, but here are several things I'd love to see campaign makers do:

  1. Considering the flow of different maps in general, try not to tread the beaten path. There's this convention where you start with a small traversal map, then a base building map or two, then traversal again, and the usual ping-pong. All the while acquiring new units and new tech. While this is okay, it has been done dozens of times. You want to spice things up? try jumbling the order of maps: start with a large base-building map with all the new tech available - you'll get everyone excited and get a lot more immediate feedback on your techtree. Try putting a minimalistic map somewhere in the middle, something to even the pacing. Better yet, make a map that is NOT one of the two types, that'd be something to see.
  2. When creating a base building map, you should add some sort of AI. It doesn't have to be polished, it doesn't have to be some fancy JASS thing with multiple functionalities (although if you make that I'll worship you for the whole development time), but it has to exist and enable play. I can't stress this enough, as this sort of thing is usually pushed to the late development stages in many cases, leaving maps which may have potential simply unplayable. If you have some sort of basic AI, I can play your map, and give you some information as to where are it's faulst and strong points, but as long as I build a base against a brain-dead computer player which will not do more than collecting resources, that's all I'll see.
  3. When creating traversal maps, try adding as many active or pace breaking phases. Triggered events, bosses and mini-bosses, or everything that is not numbly going from one side of the map to the other killing all you see - that'll make your maps so much more playable, and stand out so much more. And here I can actually give you some concrete points:
  • Rune generating scripts are your friends: with a simple set of triggers, or one 5 minutes work piece of JASS, you can make runes spawn randomly from enemies based on their type, elapsed game time, difficulty, and almost any other parameter you can choose. This is preferable by far over the usual design of traversals (healing fountains or nothing).
  • Back tracking isn't necessarily bad, if you change the beck tracking area in some way. That's a more difficult than the previous point, but still very important. I often see mapmakers making a map completely linear: go through one path, kill things, rinse, repeat. I think some of that is because of the fear of making back tracking sections. There's no need to fear it, just make it interesting in some way.
  • I always find something a bit missing in late game traversal maps, and I think one of the problems is urgency. Usually in late game base building maps you need to make some effort to keep from drowning in enemy attack waves, but in traversal maps you can walk from side to side at your leisure, and it's generally boring. Timed missions, or timed events (mob spawn every X minutes, rain of fire in a region every Y minutes) will keep your map from getting dull.
Overall I hope your project will go well. If you have a team of people, you might have more of a chance to make it. In any case you can contact me for small, technical assistance with stuff I proposed about (small because I have very little free time), and I'll see what I can do.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 56
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
16,095
So I won't vote. But if I were to vote, I'd go for gameplay, as this is what so many projects are lacking. Take a little time to scroll through the first 2 pages or so of campaigns in map development, you'll see a lot of story with very little gameplay to back it up: base building maps with no computer action to speak of, traversal maps with little to no triggered event or anything special to speak of.
Well, you'd be surprised that many people like the good old Warcraft III style and to some the story is most important. I don't play singleplayer games if they don't have an interesting story. However if they have good music, I might.
start with a large base-building map with all the new tech available - you'll get everyone excited and
excited and bored after the first 3 missions if the techtree doesn't change of course. Let's be real here, no one can reinvent the steel. It's there, the rules, everything. Indeed it matters how you play with them.
When creating traversal maps, try adding as many active or pace breaking phases. Triggered events, bosses and mini-bosses, or everything that is not numbly going from one side of the map to the other killing all you see - that'll make your maps so much more playable, and stand out so much more. And here I can actually give you some concrete points:
This is the way to do it, yes, killing monotony.
Yes, linearity is what kills most project gameplays.
Timed missions, or timed events (mob spawn every X minutes, rain of fire in a region every Y minutes) will keep your map from getting dull.
and annoy other people. Timed missions I like the least (although I make some myself :D; stupid, I know) even if you are right, that it is a way to stress the player into not getting away with long repetitive gaming.

Sorry for the spam :| Just felt like replying.
 
Level 11
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Messages
463
Sorry for the spam :| Just felt like replying.

All good, let the spam continue! Although this time I'll give examples because why not.

excited and bored after the first 3 missions if the techtree doesn't change of course. Let's be real here, no one can reinvent the steel. It's there, the rules, everything. Indeed it matters how you play with them.

I'm not saying necessarily that the techtree is constant during the entire campaign. Rather, start with a large map showing off all of the techtree, then go back to the usual method. Other possibilities are changing the techtree, not adding but replacing units. You can also opt for a techtree progression like in the first human book in legends of Arkain. There, while the techtree is revealed gradually, as usual, you start off with plenty of options for normal units, siege and casters, with the only thing missing being air units.

Well, you'd be surprised that many people like the good old Warcraft III style and to some the story is most important. I don't play singleplayer games if they don't have an interesting story. However if they have good music, I might.

Sure the story is important, but would you still play it with little to no gameplay? My point here was that I'm not as concerned about story aspects, because this is a campaign, and users usually make those wanting to tell a story. What I am concerned about is that story set to an interesting, engaging gameplay, making it all the better.

and annoy other people. Timed missions I like the least (although I make some myself :D; stupid, I know) even if you are right, that it is a way to stress the player into not getting away with long repetitive gaming.

Timed missions are perhaps the lazier approach to adding urgency to your level. Pursuers, mob waves and other events are a better approach, but those are much more trigger and balance heavy, so yeah a timer will also work. I get the idea of not liking an arbitrary time limit set to a level, making things like exploring everything less possible. It's just that I feel like some custom campaigns shy away from that approach, while it could do much for their design and their story.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 56
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
16,095
Sure the story is important, but would you still play it with little to no gameplay?
Depends. If the story is good and the game playable, then probably yes.
this is a campaign, and users usually make those wanting to tell a story.
Most campaigns have a lousy story anyways. What helps many is indeed the fun factor.
What I am concerned about is that story set to an interesting, engaging gameplay, making it all the better.
That's rarely seen if there is not a team involved.
Pursuers, mob waves and other events are a better approach
Well, if they increase in strength or numbers with time, then, it's just a luxury the map designer chose instead of a timer.
It's just that I feel like some custom campaigns shy away from that approach, while it could do much for their design and their story.
Most, design the story to overlap the gameplay and that's sadly the way to do it if you're working on a game and not a novel.

Now, seeing you are versed onto this, why not share some level ideas. Maybe @Zenonoth would share sketches for each level and you could supply them.
 
Level 5
Joined
Sep 13, 2016
Messages
107
The concept is intersting, but I can't help my dissapointment for not being able to play with Kael'thas. But that aside, all those playable characters are a little overwhemling at first glance. Playing as Nozdormu is a nice touch. But I have to say that Karagath's model look like a chaos orc with sunglasses. Balnazzar has a model that looks to be an eye sore. The WoW models give it a nice touch.

Now with that said. Let's get the gang back together!
 
Level 20
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Messages
2,403
The concept is intersting, but I can't help my dissapointment for not being able to play with Kael'thas.

I don't.

I never liked Kael'thas. Before the Third War, he criticized the orcs for becoming addicted to magic and joining with demons and decided to leave them in camps out of lack of interest. Karma came to bite him hard.
In "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" he comes off as both arrogant and coward. He boasts about his powers and sword, but spends most of his fights mocking Arthas and then runs away when he starts losing.

But that aside, all those playable characters are a little overwhemling at first glance.

I like campaigns with a great humber of heroes.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 56
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
16,095
Before the Third War, he criticized the orcs for becoming addicted to magic and joining with demons and decided to leave them in camps out of lack of interest.
Who cares man... That's outer game lore, totally meh.
In "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" he comes off as both arrogant and coward. He boasts about his powers and sword, but spends most of his fights mocking Arthas and then runs away when he starts losing.
Totally out of character. In The Frozen Throne he'd do anything for his people, even ally with strangers like the naga and Illidan. Listen to his lines in the sound editor if watching every cinematic scene in the game is too much time consuming.
 
Level 11
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Messages
463
Now, seeing you are versed onto this, why not share some level ideas. Maybe @Zenonoth would share sketches for each level and you could supply them.

Mmmhh... Studying so hard right now. If I had more spare time I'd finish the second AI tutorial and overhaul my part in CtD's AI. Then again, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

@Zenonoth, given a rough idea of a map I can give my ideas, as well as proofs of concept, examples and what not. It won't be fast, not sure it will even be with exams coming up in a month or so, but if you got something feel free to send it.
 
Level 14
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Sep 24, 2009
Messages
1,470
Sounds promising, but you have already did something like this with Revenge of Mal'Ganis and abandoned it in the middle of the progress, so why should we believe you that you won't repeat the same thing again?
 
Level 20
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2,403
Sounds promising, but you have already did something like this with Revenge of Mal'Ganis and abandoned it in the middle of the progress, so why should we believe you that you won't repeat the same thing again?

Revenge of Mal'ganis is back.
 
Level 20
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2,403

EDIT:
Completed spells list

I just read them.
Most of them are very appropiate, though
-I never liked Kel'Thuzad having Cold Ritual. If I may suggest one to replace it: Chains of Kel'Thuzad: chains the target to the ground and deals damage for a time
-I don't like that Balnazzar's ultimate ability is Earthquake.
-Gul'dan should be capable of draining life from allies too... because he is Gul'dan
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 56
Joined
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Messages
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-I never liked Kel'Thuzad having Cold Ritual. If I may suggest one to replace it: Chains of Kel'Thuzad: chains the target to the ground and deals damage for a time
Nah. Likes have nothing to do with it. Plus, you want a Dragonhawk Aerial Shackles-like spell for him, or one similar to Entangling Roots? Be more creative.
-I don't like that Balnazzar's ultimate ability is Earthquake.
This is a pertinent.
-Gul'dan should be capable of draining life from allies too... because he is Gul'dan
:D
 
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Not too fond of how almost every ultimate ability increases attack speed. It's fine for one or two, but it seems like it's almost every single one of them

True.

Ragnaros' ult ability seems both awesome and desperate...

Nah. Likes have nothing to do with it. Plus, you want a Dragonhawk Aerial Shackles-like spell for him, or one similar to Entangling Roots? Be more creative.

Maybe Kel'Thuzad can have stronger versions of Frost Nova and Blizzard?

What if his Frost Bolt can also temporarily slow targets?


It is fitting for a guy that only cares about himself.
 
Last edited:
Level 20
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(12/15/2017) Added a very early BETA testing video of the last bonus mission of the campaign to the first post's video list.

- Kael'thas' spells are a bit incomplete
- UI still needs fixing
- More changes await
- Campaign still in very early stages

Banishment as punishment...How original...:D
Plus, it grants him the chance to return...

This part reminds of the Spirit Bomb in Dragon Ball Z...our allies granting energy...

And right after this, they start killing each other again...:)
 
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