Wolf or dog?

[GST_Nemisis]

It was a medophore for communism Vs. democracy.

crap metaphor imo.

 

[Elenai]

Crap indeed. But I still know that the dog is better off than the wolf. The dog will survive and be happy but the wolf will suffer.

 

[Hakeem]

You don't know that. The wolf might find an injured animal, or a crashed meat delivery truck. The dog would like to find a crashed meat truck too, but he's chained up. There's no guarantee the wolf will starve and no guarantee he will find food. There is also no guarantee that the master will live and continue feeding the dog. There is no guarantee that the master will always have food for both of them, or even for himself. One day the master might not be able to get food anymore, and would eat the dog to survive.

You either live free, or live under someone who is free. Your master, and any of his masters, has control over you, and they must face wolf-like situations of freedom. The wolf doesn't need to worry about anyone above him, he only needs to make sure he is safe. The dog needs to worry about all of his masters though, if any of them are on the brink, like the wolf, the dog is no longer safe.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Liberty=He is most likley treated well and most likley has the freedom to run and play when he is off the chain.

Liberty is the freedom to do anything you so choose, so long as it doesn't harm others or others' possessions without the explicit consent of the other persons involved. The dog is just being treated to nice meals.

There's no doubt in my mind that the wolf is more free than the dog, the difference is that the wolf isn't guaranteed the profanely high likelihood of survival that the dog is. I voted dog as which one I probably am, not which one I'd rather be.

 

[Elenai]

Right...and the wolf is being treated to gourmet lamb meat. There is also no guarrantee that the wolf will not be trapped by a cruel and heartless animal collector either. Thats irrelevent. We can only take into account what we can see in the story and deduce what is going on.

The dog is being treated well by a non-cruel master. The dog will survive and is happy.

The wolf is starving to death and will probably die of his starvation if the rate of the story continues.

The dog's freedom is not limited by the chain. He has all kinds of freedom while still on the chain. He is only limited by where he can go. AND EVEN THAT can easily be removed. The dog's freedom is hardly gone.

The wolf will not survive. His freedom is nigh irrelevent.

Just as in life. Freedom is nothing if you don't live to use it. Thus even our most basic freedoms are bound by our physical needs. If we do not have the means to survive like the dog. Then we will die, and our illusion of freedom is not true. If we survive and use what freedom we have while on the chain of law then we have true freedom. Because we experience it. Thus it becomes true.

And thats what I have to say about that.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

"Lol the wolf will die cos no wolf haz survivd on hiz own b4"

As for "freedom is nothing if you don't live to use it", i don't think that was what most people have in mind when they try for revolution. The dog is in prison. Everyone else decided what's best for him. It matters not whether he is, in your view, pampered or not. He has no choices. He has no say in anything. He is a pet. If I granted you the opportunity to move into a mansion, would you accept it if they made you into a pet?

 

[TheDivineBoss]

So everyone agrees that the dog will live a happier life then the wolf who will starve to death since he got no steak (poor wolfie ...NOT ) Now let's start a other thread but with something else before we all get philosophic ok?

 

[Dr00d]

Now let's start a other thread but with something else before we all get philosophic ok?

That was the very reason I stared this thread. Get all philosphical plz.

 

[Elenai]

The dog is not in prison. The dog is not jailed. The dog is limited by a chain. THATS ALL. The only choice he is limited on is where he can go. HE CAN DO ANYTHING HE WANTS within that chain.

And as for revolutions and dying. People have revolutions so that either they survive and have freedom...or their children do.

The dog has choices and the freedom to make them. The master only limited his mobility. Thats like saying a person in a wheel chair automatically loses the right to freedom of speech, religion, bare arms, ect. The idea that the dog is freedom'less is just not true.

If you granted me the opportunity to go into a mansion.....ect ect. What about my mine field example?

Of course you also fail to state whether or not that mansion is a paradise or a hell.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Hmm... this has gotten to be fucking retarded. You people are arguing about different things. Elenai is saying that the dog is better off. Everybody else is saying that the wolf is freer. Those are mutually exclusive statements.

The dog, hands down, is physically better off (maybe not spiritually, but that's not the point of the story). Somebody hands him a freaking steak every time he barks. The wolf isn't living nearly that luxuriously (ignoring any injustices that may or may not be occurring to the dog).

The wolf, hands down, is freer. The dog's life, wellbeing, everything, is in somebody else's hand (quite literally, as his master hands him the steak). Those hands just choose to be relatively lenient (seem to, and excluding the chain) with the dog. The wolf's life is, for better or worse (Elenai says for worse), in his own hands (paws).

 

[Elenai]

That statement is indeed correct Teh-Ephy.

But of course the reason I believe the wolf while being "freer". His life is for worse (excuse the lack of grammar in that statement) because looking at the story alone and taking only that into account of evidence. The wolf will suffer and die alone, while the dog lives happily and carefree.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

The wolf isn't necessarily going to die alone just as the dog isn't necessarily treated very nicely except for the steaks when he barks.

The wolf probably will die alone though, what the hell is he doing away from his pack? Lone wolves do not last long in nature.

 

[Elenai]

That is quite true. Wolves hunt in packs and that is how they survive.

But on the dog being treated nicely I am taking into account the behavior of the master and the dog's reaction to his master. The dog doesn't act as though his master is cruel....so the opposite must be true.

 

[Moontraveler]

Too me it would depend on the master... If he's kind as long as I do my job I would be the dog. If he would treat me like a slave like back in the civil war I would be the wolf.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

The wolf isn't necessarily going to die alone just as the dog isn't necessarily treated very nicely except for the steaks when he barks.

The wolf probably will die alone though, what the hell is he doing away from his pack? Lone wolves do not last long in nature.

What the hell are animals doing talking to each other to begin with? An animal's usual behavior obviously isn't taken into account in this story, give or take the "pet" theory.

 

[Elenai]

The animals arent "talking" in the sense of human toungues. The animals (being dogs and wolves, also highly related to one another) are speaking in perhaps the canine language. If you wish to call it that. So it's quite pluasible animal behavior for a lone wolf and dog.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

The animals arent "talking" in the sense of human toungues. The animals (being dogs and wolves, also highly related to one another) are speaking in perhaps the canine language. If you wish to call it that. So it's quite pluasible animal behavior for a lone wolf and dog.

Wolves and dogs communicate differently, actually. For example, a dog's bark is annoying, repeated, and used in a wide variety of situations. Wolves bark when nervous or when they want to warn other wolves of danger. Wolves bark very discreetly, and will not generally bark loudly or repeatedly as dogs do; rather, they use a low-key, breathy "whuf" sound to immediately get attention from other wolves. Wolves also "bark-howl" by adding a brief howl to the end of a bark. Wolves bark-howl for the same reasons they normally bark. Generally, pups bark and bark-howl much more frequently than adults, using these vocalizations to cry for attention, care, or food.

 

[Hakeem]

But on the dog being treated nicely I am taking into account the behavior of the master and the dog's reaction to his master. The dog doesn't act as though his master is cruel....so the opposite must be true.

What reaction? The story was short, you can't deduce anything about the master from the story, except that recently (if not before), he's been giving the dog steak.

The animals arent "talking" in the sense of human toungues. The animals (being dogs and wolves, also highly related to one another) are speaking in perhaps the canine language. If you wish to call it that. So it's quite pluasible animal behavior for a lone wolf and dog.

They are talking as if they understand the meaning of freedom. Therefore they are separate from reality.

As for the dog being better off, you don't know that. I'll admit, the dog sure looks like it has it ok, but you don't know about the master and his masters. For all you know somewhere in the hierarchy of masters, catastrophe will happen.

If any link in the chain breaks, the weight at the bottom will fall.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

I'll admit, the dog sure looks like it has it ok, but you don't know about the master and his masters. For all you know somewhere in the hierarchy of masters, catastrophe will happen.

ok you have to realise that this question really is stupid because unless you knew all the factors involved to survive if this were a real situation all the decisions you make are based on guesses. how do you know the dog isnt being fed stakes to fatten him up to be eaten? how do you know that there will be any food for the wolf? how do you know that the wolf will live out the day even if it was given all the stakes it could eat? if you are actually trying to weigh up the two decisions you will always find conflict. you may as well flip a coin.

If any link in the chain breaks, the weight at the bottom will fall.

huh?

 

[Hakeem]

huh?

The dog is the weight, the masters are the links.

 

[Elenai]

I am taking into the account only what I can deduce from the story. And it doesnt matter how short the story is I can deduce alot from it.

And the idea that the master is fattening up the dog is rediculous. 1: it's not in the story. 2: if he has steaks why fatten up a dog? 3: it's rediculous.

There is no account of a hierarchy in the story so I do not count any catastrophe in the hierarchy as relevent.

The master from what I can deduce is a kind owner and thus the dog is treated well.

You must look deep into the story, and take only the evidence (given/you can glean) in this case.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

And the idea that the master is fattening up the dog is rediculous. 1: it's not in the story.

thats the whole point.

2: if he has steaks why fatten up a dog?

some people like dogmeat. like those cows that get to drink beer and eat icecream and stuff for their meat. maybe the guy has nothing but steak and potatoes and he wants something different.

3: it's rediculous.

but still possible, and the limitless possibilties surounding this question is what (for me) makes it a bit pointless in general.

 

[Hakeem]

If this were a real story you might be able to deduce a lot.
The animals understand freedom.
Stop bringing reality into this. All situations are equally likely.

 

[Elenai]

If you cant bring reality into it then I could say the wolf is actually a worm and that he is actually in the matrix and imprissoned and that the dog is actually the free one because he lives in another dimension where humans are dog's pets and chains are made out of cheese.

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

I am a wolf, I'd rather starve and be hungry than be stuffed and kept as a pet... Lord knows, that guy could be a wolf killer!

 

[Hakeem]

If you cant bring reality into it then I could say the wolf is actually a worm and that he is actually in the matrix and imprissoned and that the dog is actually the free one because he lives in another dimension where humans are dog's pets and chains are made out of cheese.

Or you could use only the reality that the story creates.
If you take what the story says as fact and create a reality from it, then all situations are equally likely. From the story, the master could be kind, or he could just as easily be fattening the dog up to eat.
The dog's situation only looks good on the cover.

 

[Elenai]

I am using the reality of the story. And you cant say that the master is going to fatten up the dog based on the stories reality! The story says nothing about the master having such an intention. NOR does it imply anything of the sort.

Of course even with the "looks good on the cover" idea I could say the wolfs situation is EVEN WORSE under the cover. Some guy out in the wilderness has laid a trap for the wolf that is in-escapable that is an angry enemy of the master.

 

[Hakeem]

You can't say that the master is kind either. The story says nothing about the master having such an intention. NOR does it imply anything of the sort.

The wolf only has to worry about himself. That's the cover and the inside. You don't know what will happen, but you know the wolf has control.
The dog, doesn't know anything of his masters, and he certainly has no control in the matter. He has to worry about all his master.

The wolf doesn't have the extra worry of masters. The dog does.
The wolf's safety depends on 1 and only 1. The dog's safety depends on possibly thousands.

 

[Elenai]

I can say the master is kind. BECAUSE I DEDUCED THAT HE IS KIND. Based on evidence gleaned from the story.

The wolf's saftey depends on just as much as the dog's. The wolf's saftey is bound not only to himself (as it the dog's) but to the thousands around him.

ONE careless gunshot by a hunter and the wolf (or dog) is dead.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

then taking just what is in the story being the wolf would be completely illogical as it will probably die.

Reasons:

wolfs hunt in packs and often die on their own, being weakened increases this risk

the wolf wouldnt have enough energy to catch prey (chase after rabbits etc)

wolfs dont eat any plants or anything

the fact the wolf is hungry anyways implies a lack of food in the area meaning it will probably die of hunger as there is no food to catch and there hasnt been for a while.

the wolfs future has no reasonable amount certainty to it at all and has a high chance of death

the dog has a future that is probably very good based on the fact that the dog is being fed steak which would only be fed to a dog if the owner truly loved it, usually dogs get scrap meat or dog food

the dog would probably get a chance to escape if it really wanted to but seeing as it gets fed steak it would probably want to stay.

bottom line:

as the wolf you will probably die, as the dog you will probably have a very comfortable life.

 

[Elenai]

Indeed.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

i mean looking at it like that, anyone who would choose to be the wolf is stupid.....you may as well ask the dogs master to shoot you so you dont have hunger pains.

 

[Hakeem]

As for the last 4 posts: this story isn't about what normally happens.

I can say the master is kind. BECAUSE I DEDUCED THAT HE IS KIND. Based on evidence gleaned from the story.

Such as?

The wolf's saftey depends on just as much as the dog's. The wolf's saftey is bound not only to himself (as it the dog's) but to the thousands around him.

ONE careless gunshot by a hunter and the wolf (or dog) is dead.

Yes, all the masters and the dog are just as safe as the wolf. By themselves.
But since the dog has many masters his safety depends on many other's saftey. His worry is multiplied by the number of masters.

 

[Just_Spectating]

you know.. reading all these posts changes my mind XP i would be the dog. Reason : Dogs are mans best friend. Dogs like "man" as partnership. HOW is the dog a slave? Freedom? the best freedom for a dog is eating steak and being petted by the master, life of a king ..almost.

 

[Elenai]

Indeed. TO be the wolf is to choose death. And thats just stupid.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

its like anyone saying "im running away from my house to be free of my parents who treat me well but ulitmately i rely on them so im gunna choose freedom and run off somewhere..." then you end up as a bum drinking paint stripper down some back alley in some crappy town. so go ahead all you wolves, blow your brains out with paint stripper, at least you will be free.

 

[Hakeem]

Indeed. TO be the wolf is to choose death. And thats just stupid.

What you say is stupid is debatable.
AND AGAIN: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE WOLF OR THE DOG, THIS STORY DOES NOT FOLLOW WHAT NORMALLY HAPPENS.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Indeed. TO be the wolf is to choose death. And thats just stupid.

Lol, you complain on outnumbering in one thread and gang bang in the other. Sure, I may be going on a tu quoque here, but I'm a big fan of irony.

Now, back to the topic.

Stealthily dodged was the "realism" argument. That will be all from me.

 

[Elenai]

Gang Banging? How am I out numbering the wolves Spacebar? Its me and GST. TWO against who knows howmany others. Hardly gang banging.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

Gang Banging? How am I out numbering the wolves Spacebar? Its me and GST. TWO against who knows howmany others. Hardly gang banging.

i count as 3 remember.

 

[Dr00d]

Dogs are up to 4 now. o.0

 

[Elenai]

Ironic that it would be the dogs who follow the path less traveled.

 

[Dr00d]

Dogs were considered the commies in mah history class.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Ironic that it would be the dogs who follow the path less traveled.

Elaborate.

Dogs were considered the commies in mah history class.

The wolf and the dog is, actually, a common story. Comparing it to commies and capitalists is not. Whatever idiot came up with that metaphor needs to be shot.

 

[Dr00d]

That would be mah history teacher Mr. Kunz. 2 North Catalina Street, Ventura California, 93003. If you need a gun I can supply. Have fun.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

That would be mah histry teacher Mr. Kunz. 2 North Catalina Street, Ventura California, 93003. If you need a gun I can supply. Have fun.

I'm not walking a mile or two just to shoot a teacher.

 

[Hakeem]

...

Anyway, the dogs are less chosen because more know the value of freedom.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

In other words, we are reaching an age where materialism for the more educated is, ironically, decreasing.

 

[Elenai]

Ironic that the dog is'nt materialism in my interpretation. But is instead saftey and stability.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Ironic that the dog is'nt materialism in my interpretation. But is instead saftey and stability.

I'm waiting for the ironic part.