Wolf or dog?

[Dr00d]

STORY TIME ZOMG

A wolf was hungry in the woods, about to die of starvation. He pushed on, hoping to find something to eat. As he draged himself over a hill, he saw a house. Outsdie the was a dog chained up to the house, nawing on a large stake.

The wolf ran as fast as his weak legs could carry him. When he reached the dog he asked "Please, may I have some of that? I havn't eatin' in days".

The dog looked at him, and then the stake. "No," he replied, "But I can get one for you." The dog barked for his master.

The wolf was happy to see the man come out with a stake in one hand, but then caught sight of the chain in the other.

"What is he going to do?" asked the wolf.

"Why, he is going to chain you up so you don't run away."

"Food is not worth my freedom" declared the wolf. He ran back into the forest and never looked back.

Are you a dog, or a wolf?

 

[Elenai]

Hmmmmz...to be free to fall into the jaws of death....or the be a prisoner and live.....

There are many ways to look at this....Is it better to die free than live as a prisoner....

Is the wolf truely free? fore he is bound in the chains of hunger and will soon be captured by death...

Is the dog perhaps the one who is truely free, only bound by mortal chains so that he doesnt run to his death. He is loved and cared for by another, the man.

Or is the wolf who is the free one, able to make his own desisions freely, for he can choose to die in hunger or be chained and live.

But the dog, even though he has a master...is free for he can also choose life over death.

Its all perhaps...a matter of perspective.

Love, nourishment, health, safety, and life. All through mere obedience.

Loneliness, hunger, sickness, danger, death, All for the illusion of freedom.

 

[Sansui]

I'm the wolf, that eats the dogs master... and then the dog.

choosing death isn't choosing freedom...

 

[ragingspeedhorn]

Lame alert.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

To be the African in a dying country or to become the slave...

If I want to get to the top of the food chain, I'll climb there, kthx. There is no "illusion" of freedom. You whore yourself or you don't. You acknowledge inferiority or you stand on your own legs. I am my own man, and no one can take that from me.

 

[iron_warrior]

Most people who are free and hungry will choose dog, and most who are slaves and full will choose wolf. You need to experience both to make a correct decision.

 

[Sansui]

why would the wolf run though it doesnt make sense...
a hungry wolf would kill and eat the dog.

Unless its one of those pussy small wolves.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Most people who are free and hungry will choose dog, and most who are slaves and full will choose wolf. You need to experience both to make a correct decision.

Yes, but what is the dog but one who sells his dignity in exchange for his materialistic values?

 

[Elenai]

Materialistic values?...nay The dog is not selling his dignity. He is choosing life by being obedient.

At leasts thats how I read it.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Materialistic values?...nay The dog is not selling his dignity. He is choosing life by being obedient.

At leasts thats how I read it.

You'd rather acknowledge inferiority than poverty?

 

[Hakeem]

Freedom has food too.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Freedom has food too.

In that logic, slavery has a little freedom too. The other side just has much more.

 

[Hakeem]

There aren't many things that slavery has a lot more of than freedom.
The wolf had lived in freedom getting enough to eat, it's not like it had very little food and always starved.

EDIT:
Ooh, if I had faster internet, nobody would have ever known...

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Merge pl0x. Anyhow, slavery vs living in a dying country really isn't a universal metaphor for wolf vs dog.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

Lame alert.

LOL! very funny! +rep!

me personally, i would just eat grass...i do that anyways. mmmm tastey grass.

Edit: it wont let me give u any more rep, shame....

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I'd just eat the dog.

I mean, come on! Wolves are wild animals. And this one's been starving to death. What do you think his instinct will say?

Heck, at least steal the damn steak. The dog is chained up, he couldn't harm the wolf if he wanted. Neither would the man.

 

[iron_warrior]

I'd just eat the dog.

I mean, come on! Wolves are wild animals. And this one's been starving to death. What do you think his instinct will say?

Heck, at least steal the damn steak. The dog is chained up, he couldn't harm the wolf if he wanted. Neither would the man.

The wolf and dog can talk, so they're not normal animals.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Nope. They're furries.

 

[Redeemer59]

Dog. Although I'd definitely prefer being somewhere in between, the dog isn't really a slave; he just can't leave his chain. And you can't reap the benefits of freedom if you've died.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

me personally, i would just eat grass...i do that anyways. mmmm tastey grass.

I believe wolves are incapable of acquiring the required amount of nutrients to survive from just grass, as well as digesting it without vomiting it back up.

Dog. I'm not entirely sure why atm, but I'm sure I'm closer to the dog.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Dog. Although I'd definitely prefer being somewhere in between, the dog isn't really a slave; he just can't leave his chain. And you can't reap the benefits of freedom if you've died.

Of course the dog isn't a slave. He's a whore. He's let the humans own him. I'd rather die a free man than live for the sole sake of being property of another's. Then again, I, as a human, will say that we own the organic world, at least in my mind's eye. But I will say, however, that in the case that I'm the wolf, I will know that I, and my ancestors, "stood the test of time". We've climbed the food chain to where we are without selling out dignity to someone else, and can continue to do so.

 

[Hakeem]

The wolf isn't guaranteed food, but if the dog's master has problems getting food, then the dog isn't guaranteed that it wont be eaten.

 

[Elenai]

HAHAHA silly ones. Do you not all realize that to the logic you are using you are all owned (sort of) and are indeed whoring yourselves to your masters. The governments Laws, the mighty hand of money and corporate control.

But the way I interpret this story is not a comparison of whoring yourself to freedom. Its this:

The dog is rewarded for obedience (The chain symbolizes obedience), the wolf has the illusion of freedom yet is chained and imprisoned by his hunger and his worries. The wolf is not truely free. The dog is not truely a slave.

I would rather be the dog. Rewarded for obedience, bound to a protective chain of law, never worried, alive with a secure and stable environment, and loved by my master. Where-as the dog is not free. He is imprisoned by fear, worry, and all alone in a dangerous world.

And for those who say "I would never give up my freedom for mere luxuries"

If I were to place you naked and alone in a barren wilderness devoid of food, and surrounded by a mine field and gave you the choice. Food and saftey ....or "freedom" to roam this land for the rest of your short days. You would definately choose food and saftey as would I.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

That certainly is an unorthodox way of looking at it.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

HAHAHA silly ones. Do you not all realize that to the logic you are using you are all owned (sort of) and are indeed whoring yourselves to your masters. The governments Laws, the mighty hand of money and corporate control.

HAHAHA silly one. We follow them as a unified group. We've chosen them to lead us, because of social disorganization. They are not superior beings, they simply make the laws we follow. The bill of rights protects our dignity. Why are you so eager to give yours away?

But the way I interpret this story is not a comparison of whoring yourself to freedom. Its this:

The dog is rewarded for obedience (The chain symbolizes obedience), the wolf has the illusion of freedom yet is chained and imprisoned by his hunger and his worries. The wolf is not truely free. The dog is not truely a slave.

His hunger and his worries do not own him. They accompany him. They are the part of the mind that tell you that you are lacking material. You own them, not the other way around.

I would rather be the dog. Rewarded for obedience, bound to a protective chain of law, never worried, alive with a secure and stable environment, and loved by my master. Where-as the dog is not free. He is imprisoned by fear, worry, and all alone in a dangerous world.

How about a nice, cushioned room with a straightjacket? It gives you that nice "protective chain" you long for. You will never have to worry again (give or take a few itchy spots).

And for those who say "I would never give up my freedom for mere luxuries"

If I were to place you naked and alone in a barren wilderness devoid of food, and surrounded by a mine field and gave you the choice. Food and saftey ....or "freedom" to roam this land for the rest of your short days. You would definately choose food and saftey as would I.

That would be taking advantage of our emotions, and therefore stunting what we truly believe in place of our own inner selfishness. Real wisdom comes from taking thoughts not from emotions, but from the third person view you manage to create within yourself.

 

[Elenai]

HAHAHA silly one. We follow them as a unified group. We've chosen them to lead us, because of social disorganization. They are not superior beings, they simply make the laws we follow. The bill of rights protects our dignity. Why are you so eager to give yours away?

I was merely pointing out the flaw in the "I would never whore myself" logic, when we do every day. Not necassarily to "evil buisiness" or "corrupt government" but that we do to other people all the time without even knowing it.

His hunger and his worries do not own him. They accompany him. They are the part of the mind that tell you that you are lacking material. You own them, not the other way around.?

Nay not owned...but he is imprisoned by them and you do not own your hunger, your hunger is your slave master. It drives you to feed at any cost if your hungry enough. Why are you so eager to starve and die...alone and hungry and weak? It would seem that the only thing the dog has that makes him "un-dignified" is a chain that can easily be removed. But the wolf has no dignity in this lowly state.

How about a nice, cushioned room with a straightjacket? It gives you that nice "protective chain" you long for. You will never have to worry again (give or take a few itchy spots).

A cushioned room? nay...that is not a secure place. That is torment and a prison in it's self. I do not long for a "protective chain" through suffering and isolation. But through obedience where true freedom is. Do not take advantage of my "emotions".

That would be taking advantage of our emotions, and therefore stunting what we truly believe in place of our own inner selfishness. Real wisdom comes from taking thoughts not from emotions, but from the third person view you manage to create within yourself.

I was showing you the exact choice you and many others would make if you were thrown from a safe environment into a hostile one. Just like the wolf is in. Real wisdom comes from experience and learning. Both are not just thoughts. It comes from emotions as well. True wisdom, comes from experience and at least half of experience is emotion related. True wisdom also comes from learning, which is bound to experience and thus also contains emotions. Thought is a way to build learning and experience, and not to mention that thoughts themselves involve emotions. Emotion is inherently tied to wisdom.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I was merely pointing out the flaw in the "I would never whore myself" logic, when we do every day. Not necassarily to "evil buisiness" or "corrupt government" but that we do to other people all the time without even knowing it.

I'm listening.

Nay not owned...but he is imprisoned by them and you do not own your hunger, your hunger is your slave master. It drives you to feed at any cost if your hungry enough.

No, they are not. They are feelings. Any pain you feel is most likely a warning. If you ignore pain as such, you will not survive long. The pain is your companion.

A cushioned room? nay...that is not a secure place. That is torment and a prison in its self. I do not long for a "protective chain" through suffering and isolation. But through obedience. Do not take advantage of my "emotions".

I am not taking advantage of your emotions. You obviously don't know what that means. You specifically said protective chain, and I gave you a protective chain. And being the dog is, in fact, to an extent, suffering and isolation. You surrender the ownership of yourself, and rarely meet others of your kind.

That would be showing you the exact choice you would make if you were thrown from a safe environment into a hostile one. Just like the wolf is in. Real wisdom comes from experience and learning. Both are not just thoughts. It comes from emotions as well. True wisdom, comes from experience and at least half of experience is emotion related. True wisdom also comes from learning, which is bound to experience and thus also contains emotions. Thought is a way to build learning and experience, and not to mention that thoughts themselves involve emotions. Emotion is inherently tied to wisdom.

Emotion does nothing to wisdom if you cannot control it. Furthermore, the wolf might be in a hostile environment, but he was born in such. His choice was extended to him, not forced on him. He has learned to make do with what he had long enough for his emotions not to affect him.

 

[Elenai]

Take for example this: You going to get a bad grade on your report card, the only hope you have is bonus points. You then beg and plea for a way to get extra credit.

A slave-driver is also a companion also in that sense. Because if you ignore your slave-driver you will also die. And the lash of his whip is a warning.

As for taking advantage of my emotions I was making a point where you said that my example of the mine field was playing with emotions, so I compared it to your example of the straight jacket.

Emotions are still tied to wisdom. You cannot deny that. Because wisdom is nearly born from emotions. (emotion is not the mother of wisdom, its more like the father) But the mine-field scenario still stands. When thrown into a hostile environment, or even born into it. We gladly accept saftey and security over our freedom. That is the reason why the ancient peoples formed governments. The dog is an example of those who live under the chain of law, and they survive. At least thats how I see it.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Take for example this: You going to get a bad grade on your report card, the only hope you have is bonus points. You then beg and plea for a way to get extra credit.

A slave-driver is also a companion also in that sense. Because if you ignore your slave-driver you will also die. And the lash of his whip is a warning.

As for taking advantage of my emotions I was making a point where you said that my example of the mine field was playing with emotions, so I compared it to your example of the straight jacket.

Emotions are still tied to wisdom. You cannot deny that. Because wisdom is nearly born from emotions. (emotion is not the mother of wisdom, its more like the father) But the mine-field scenario still stands. When thrown into a hostile environment, or even born into it. We gladly accept saftey and security over our freedom. That is the reason why the ancient peoples formed governments. The dog is an example of those who live under the chain of law, and they survive. At least thats how I see it.

That's nice.

 

[Just_Spectating]

Wolf, take steak and run away or bite man's hand when he tryed to chain me and take the streak, or just take the dogs steak and run away. what is that dog going to do? bark for his master so he will bring more streak? exactly.

 

[Hakeem]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Elenai, given the choice of slavery or being left in a place like that, then in all honesty, I would choose to be free.

The wolf is truly free, nobody makes any decisions for him, the dog is not.

 

[Elenai]

You ofcourse realize that the dog still has his essential liberties.

That the dog is not a slave and the dog can make his own decisions [he just makes them within the bounds of his chain (the chain being laws/rules)].

And that the wolf is not truely free in the big picture.

And you would not choose to live "free" if you were stuck naked in a barren mine field. You would take the other choice in a heart beat. Any sane person would. Because you know that if you were stuck in a mine-field that not only would you probably explode and be splattered all across the ground, but that even if you managed to survive the mine-field.....you would starve to death, or freeze in the cold nights.

Freedom is not the right to do what ever you please when ever you wish. Thats a child's definition. Freedom is the right to live a wholesome life in saftey and security within the bounds of just laws under a just government.

 

[Just_Spectating]

being chained down and getting food is all you will get if you are the dog. what are you going to do? you cant do anything. the only things dogs/wolves enjoy doing is running around or hunting. and if the master cared about the dog he would let it inside not on the porch.

 

[Elenai]

.....And I am quite sure that the dog is let off his chain often. Afterall, it's being fed steaks!!! The master must love him, and because the dog is'nt telling the wolf "RUN RUN RUN!!!!" the master must not be a cruel person, so the master probably gives the dog exercise and playtime. And he probably lets the dog inside as well.

 

[Just_Spectating]

we dont know that for sure. so thers 2 sides to this

 

[Teh_Ephy]

And you would not choose to live "free" if you were stuck naked in a barren mine field. You would take the other choice in a heart beat. Any sane person would. Because you know that if you were stuck in a mine-field that not only would you probably explode and be splattered all across the ground, but that even if you managed to survive the mine-field.....you would starve to death, or freeze in the cold nights.

That situation is several hundred times more extreme than the dog/wolf situation.

.....And I am quite sure that the dog is let off his chain often. Afterall, it's being fed steaks!!! The master must love him, and because the dog is'nt telling the wolf "RUN RUN RUN!!!!" the master must not be a cruel person, so the master probably gives the dog exercise and playtime. And he probably lets the dog inside as well.

Very likely.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

That situation is several hundred times more extreme than the dog/wolf situation.

but the idea is the same, death with freedom or life in chains. using excuses like "if i were the wolf i would bite the owners face off then use his credit cards to order pizza and then eat the dog for fun" is stupid, otherwise everybody would be the wolf and do just that which defeats any challenge in the question. so really the question is:

would you have death with freedom or life in chains?

which is what is shown by the mine field example.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

So would you rather fight for your freedom or stay under a tyrant's rule?

 

[Sansui]

both examples are stupid

 

[Hakeem]

You ofcourse realize that the dog still has his essential liberties.

No, it can't run away if it wants, it's simply not free.

That the dog is not a slave and the dog can make his own decisions [he just makes them within the bounds of his chain (the chain being laws/rules)].

The chain is like making the laws too strict, honestly, Benjamin Franklin is spinning in his grave because the government has taken away so much freedom in the interest of national security.

And that the wolf is not truely free in the big picture.

That's where he is free, if you look at it in a small world of hunger and emotion, then you might think he isn't free.

And you would not choose to live "free" if you were stuck naked in a barren mine field. You would take the other choice in a heart beat. Any sane person would. Because you know that if you were stuck in a mine-field that not only would you probably explode and be splattered all across the ground, but that even if you managed to survive the mine-field.....you would starve to death, or freeze in the cold nights.

I would take the safer way, IF, AND ONLY IF, I could regain freedom soon afterwards. If, however, there was no chance to escape from the slavery, then I would choose to be left in the hostile environment, like the wolf, because I can survive.

Freedom is not the right to do what ever you please when ever you wish. Thats a child's definition. Freedom is the right to live a wholesome life in saftey and security within the bounds of just laws under a just government.

And where might I find one of those?


And it's not a choice of live chained or die free, it's life in chains vs. freedom without guarantee of safety.

 

[Just_Spectating]

you are not a slave. you turn into mans best friend (supposively). however, the man might be some evil animal catcher that kills the animals soon afterwards to mand their heads on the walls that dog is next !

 

[Hakeem]

.....And I am quite sure that the dog is let off his chain often. Afterall, it's being fed steaks!!! The master must love him, and because the dog is'nt telling the wolf "RUN RUN RUN!!!!" the master must not be a cruel person, so the master probably gives the dog exercise and playtime. And he probably lets the dog inside as well.

Maybe the master is just fattening him up. Presumably, the dog wants to run away and come back for steaks, but the master doesn't want it running off whenever it feels like it.

The animals can talk, it's a metaphorical question.

 

[Shados]

Nay not owned...but he is imprisoned by them and you do not own your hunger, your hunger is your slave master. It drives you to feed at any cost if your hungry enough.

I see. How, then, was Ghandi able to fast unto the brink of death to stop rioting if hunger "drives you to feed at any cost"?

Only the weak let their bodies rule them.

-*meow*

 

[Elenai]

And I am quite sure that during that hunger strike Ghandi suffered tremendous inner turmoil from the temptation to feed.

Spacebar: The dog's master is not a tyrant. If he was he would not be feeding him steaks. If he was a tyrant then the dog would have the right to try and escape. To find a new master who is not a tyrant. That is what freedom is all about. The right to live under just laws with a just government to protect you.

-The Chain is law-

Hakeem: Benjamin Franklin of all people knew most of all that government without freedom is bad. But freedom without government is a chaotic anarchic system that will inevitably fall to the selfish and invidiousness of human nature. Thus when the wolf prowls about with its illusion of freedom, another bigger wolf is also prowling about. Ready to make the weaker wolves his slaves. That is why government (The Chain) is needed. Not to destroy peoples freedoms. But to protect the peoples freedoms from those who want to take it.

-Hence under the chain of law wolves are domesticated into dogs.-

 

[GST_Nemisis]

So would you rather fight for your freedom or stay under a tyrant's rule?

i dont mind really, unless it is given in a specific example its difficult to decide. this example isnt specific enough because it doesnt explain if the master of the dog is bad or if hes really cool and gives lots of doggie biscuits. it doesnt explain if there is a wide availabilty of food for the wolf or if all the rabits and squirrells have caught some kinda plauge so he has nothing to eat. its just a bad thing to asses anyway because unit you are in the situation (which is probably never gunna happen unless you believe in reincarnation perhaps as some egyptians do!) you cant really be sure what you would do, so the question itself is irrelevant imo.

both examples are stupid

yep.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Spacebar: The dog's master is not a tyrant. If he was he would not be feeding him steaks. If he was a tyrant then the dog would have the right to try and escape. To find a new master who is not a tyrant. That is what freedom is all about. The right to live under just laws with a just government to protect you.

-The Chain is law-

When revolutions and such occur, it is usually to formulate a government where the people have a say in things. The humans are tyrants because they decide what's best for the dog.

 

[Hakeem]

And I am quite sure that during that hunger strike Ghandi suffered tremendous inner turmoil from the temptation to feed.

Get smarter.

Spacebar: The dog's master is not a tyrant. If he was he would not be feeding him steaks. If he was a tyrant then the dog would have the right to try and escape. To find a new master who is not a tyrant. That is what freedom is all about. The right to live under just laws with a just government to protect you.

No, freedom is about freedom, doing whatever you want. Unfortunately, that doesn't allow everyone to do what they want, so laws need to be introduced to make it fair for all.

-The Chain is law-

Yes, I agree. It's laws like the government has the right to listen to phone calls and other such things that suppress freedom. It represents unjust laws.

Hakeem: Benjamin Franklin of all people knew most of all that government without freedom is bad. But freedom without government is a chaotic anarchic system that will inevitably fall to the selfish and invidiousness of human nature. Thus when the wolf prowls about with its illusion of freedom, another bigger wolf is also prowling about. Ready to make the weaker wolves his slaves. That is why government (The Chain) is needed. Not to destroy peoples freedoms. But to protect the peoples freedoms from those who want to take it.

You don't protect freedom by separating citizens from the world, you separate those who would harm freedom.

A fence is better than a chain.

 

[Elenai]

Get smarter.

What do you mean by that Hakeem?

But for the rest of the post I have to say that I see an anarchist personality within you. Thus argueing the true benefits of law is probably going to be pointless. Especially when your idea of freedom is escewed.

But let it be known that a fence isnt being offered. So the chain of law and the master is the only way to protect the true freedom of the dog.

And that is the right to Life=not dead. Liberty=He is most likley treated well and most likley has the freedom to run and play when he is off the chain. Pursuit of Happiness=He's fed steak for crying out loud.

 

[Hakeem]

What do you mean by that Hakeem?

You don't know how Ghandi felt, and he didn't just do it for the heck of it, I'm sure he felt hungry, but that doesn't mean he let it affect him. It sounds like you, on the other hand, are controlled by your emotions.

But for the rest of the post I have to say that I see an anarchist personality within you. Thus argueing the true benefits of law is probably going to be pointless. Especially when your idea of freedom is escewed.

Gee, and I could have sworn I said:

Unfortunately, that doesn't allow everyone to do what they want, so laws need to be introduced to make it fair for all.

Thus showing that I understand why anarchy is bad.

But let it be known that a fence isnt being offered. So the chain of law and the master is the only way to protect the true freedom of the dog.

Too much law is never a good thing. The chain is too much law, a fairer master would have a fence.

And that is the right to Life=not dead. Liberty=He is most likley treated well and most likley has the freedom to run and play when he is off the chain. Pursuit of Happiness=He's fed steak for crying out loud.

You do realize that this is a talking dog don't you?
Obviously, this is not a dog that lives as normal dogs do, normal dogs might live like you say, but this dog has the chain because he wants to run away when the master does not. The master wants the dog to stay all the time, it's not like the US government allows us 'bug free' phone calls sometimes, they might listen to any of your calls. And being fed stake doesn't fulfill 'Pursuit of Happiness'.

Don't try and use any words of our forefathers against me, they chose wolf.

 

[Dr00d]

I got this story last year in history class. It was a medophore for communism Vs. democracy.