[WIP] Jungle Troll Racial Shop - 'Ritual Circle'

[Kyrbi0]

(Lol, I only just recently realized I could use this forum for my own stuff.)

Credits go primarily to @supertoinkz for the original model (link?), it was already almost exactly what I needed so I don't think I've done enough (yet, at least) to warrant an upload.

Faction	Jungle Trolls
Description	Racial Shop
Name	Ritual Circle
---	---
Form/Theme	Steeped in mysticism, the scattered Jungle Troll tribes all employ a variety of ritualistic ordinances and tokens in order to aid friendly spirits & appease malevolent ones. At the Ritual Circle, these incantations and ceremonies are focused in one place, to better allow communication with the spirits of nature & of the dead. Medicine Mon, Bog Hags, Hexxers and Ritual Warriors all receive guidance and strength from the rites performed there, as well as benefiting from the array of magical tools and wards kept stored there.
Function/Role	Like all standard factions, the Jungle Trolls need a 'racial shop' which provides them an array of racially-themed Items & allows them to sell Items found while creeping for extra cash. Items sold include the standards (Potions of Healing/Mana, Scroll of Town Portal), as well as goodies like the Ceremonial Knife (consumes a corpse to Heal in an AoE), the Monster Lure (a ward that draws creeps to it), and the Orb of Spirits (still working on this lol)
---	---
Mesh	The mesh was always meant to be reasonably simple; basically an 'arena'-like area, enclosed with big magical totem things & giant rib-bones of some crazy-huge monster. In the center I just basically needed a bubbling magical cauldron; I should be putting some more 'nurnies' (accoutrements: tiki masks, wards, bones, skulls, bottles, etc) in eventually, but they are my last concern.
Textures	This has been tricky; so far I've been using VoodooLounge.blp for nearly everything. Yes, it provides a sort of aesthetic cohesion, but I worry it's too much of the same thing all over... I'm open to additional wood texture suggestions. Pertinently, as you can see the texture wrapping is... *ahem*... Un-ideal. I'm trying to figure that out, too.
Anims	Basically already done, and incredibly minimal; just the standard Birth/Stand/Death/Decay (I'm worrying about Birth later)

In-Game shot with other Racial Shops for comparison:

My biggest concern is the Mesh: right now I'm really not sold on it. Problems:

#1	Surrounding Wood/Bone: How many of what type? I intentionally wanted a weird, asymmetric & eclectic mix (since that's a thing with Trollish architecture, I've found), but I also want to make sure it is visible from the in-game view & 'reads well', good silhouette & all that. Does... This look good, though??
#2	Fitting With The Others: It's extremely important to me that this (& all my works) fit in with the standard game, and specifically with others of it's type. See the attached image to get an idea. SO, the question is: what does it need to look better? More 'presence' (like some kind of base, or some kind of wall-thing underneath the bones/totems)? Or just plain bigger? More SFX?
#3	Some other thing I'm sure...

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

@PROXY
@stein123
@Cuore
@Direfury
and probably several others, @ them if you think they could help.

 

[Scias]

Well from what I know you're trying to make your race look and play as authentic to the original Blizzard races as possible - essentially trying to make it look like a race made by Blizzard? With that in mind I'll be a bit harsh on this one.

I think the buildings must not borrow any piece of a model that is part of an already existing building of a different race.. Your current version of the shop has the foundation part borrowed from orcs Great Hall and Barracks which throws me right off from seeing this as an authentic building for a new race. If it was meant as a update for the orc race itself I wouldn't mind this design as much.

The design itself I think needs to push the theme it's meant for a lot more, currently I'm not seeing much of a jungle or troll theme to it. The cauldron is a cool idea and I see the potential of it being used as a shop design, imagining the vendor filling the potions or enhancing the items sold with the cauldron.. But this to me seems like the main and only point of the design, cauldron on a foundation with few spikes thrown in there just to add detail.

I did a quick sketch of some ideas I had that I think your design could benefit from:

Spoiler

For the foundation I was thinking something like Stranglethorn Vale troll temples/ruins. Gave it some voodoo masks and skulls to associate it with trolls.. And some blunt dinosaur bones around the foundation, since I felt the spiky ones you had going on were already seen before and just didn't look right to me, because I see the sharp bones fitting for more of a threatening building than a simple shop. I also gave it a roof, sure this will cover the most important point of the design which is the cauldron, but I think it can be done so the cauldron can still be seen and rather than being obvious in-your-face concept it could encourage people to zoom in a bit to get a better view at it and the rest of the details aswell. Also added vines and overgrown grass to push the jungle theme.

Hope you find this useful.

 

[Cuore]

enclosed with ... giant rib-bones of some crazy-huge monster

In order to resemble a giant ribcage a more ordered disposition of the spiked, curved bones could be beneficial. I made a quick sketch to illustrate a disposition that could be more reminiscent of a ribcage:
(most of the internal parts have been removed just to highlight the obtained shape of a ribcage)

Giant curved spiky bones that aren't positioned like a ribcage may end up not seen much as ribs, but more like "orc birth mesh tusks" which of course causes me to be somewhat confused on the distinction between this faction and orcs.

Foundation mesh is also probably too orcish, as pointed out by others.

I hope it's useful.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Wow! This is already great; wasn't expecting this level of quality critique so quickly.

I want to be very up-front in saying that I am very interested in what you (& anyone else) have said (will say), but my responses (& especially the modeling itself) might very well be... protracted. I've got a bad habit of piling up important conversations like this & procrastinating them forever... long periods of time. So don't lament! I do care. : )

Secondly, just have to say, I couldn't have picked two more polite users to critique:

Hope you find this useful.

I hope it's useful.

xD

 

[stein123]

Why do you want to make a racial shop for the jungle trolls when you can use the vanilla Voodoo Lounge, wich is already a jungle troll racial shop? :v; just change the vanilla one with an orcish replacement, like this one: Пак "Луна в сумерках" - WarCraft 3 / Модмейкинг - XGM: Xtream Game Modmaking, name it differently, and voilà

 

[Kyrbi0]

Why do you want to make a racial shop for the jungle trolls when you can use the vanilla Voodoo Lounge, wich is already a jungle troll racial shop? :v; just change the vanilla one with an orcish replacement, like this one: Пак "Луна в сумерках" - WarCraft 3 / Модмейкинг - XGM: Xtream Game Modmaking, name it differently, and voilà

Great question... for the same reason I didn't use the Shadow Hunter, Batrider, Witch Doctor, & Headhunter->Berserker & find Horde replacements: I wanted to leave the original game as untouched as possible.

I'm designing my Jungle Trolls with as strict of a "5th-Race Addition" mindset as is reasonable possible (making a very few concessions). Ideally my Jungle Trolls could *slot* in to the standard game at any point (what with all the patches & whatnot).
It's also for balance reasons; I'm balancing against the standard game, and any changes (even minute ones like building size & such) worry me.

(Granted, it would be possible to make the change you suggest without changing any pertinent "game data"; i.e. it could be a purely aesthetic change (unlike, say, replacing the Shadow Hunter). But still.

Believe me, I love the Voodoo Lounge & wanted to use it. ;_;

 

[Deolrin]

I absolutely think the key problem right now is the Orcish building foundation. Ideally you would want either 1 or 2 unique building bases specific for your troll race (and then have some buildings not use those at all, for better variety), but what you definitely do not want under any circumstances is re-using such a significant part of a different race's building aesthetic (the distinction between Orcish and Troll buildings is vague enough as it is), as already mentioned. This also applies to the spiked bones.

The sketch Scias provided is an amazing starting point - I think what it needs, though, is some more permanent construction to make it seem more like a 'building' rather than a doodad. I'm not sure exactly what that entails, however.


So I think the first thing you need to do is to decide whether you want to go for improving the current model and changing some things up, or if you want to start over with a different concept. Perhaps you could even merge the two? One idea I had in mind was to take Scias' concept, but make the cauldron in the middle a more permanent, stone construction, set in a base and surrounded by decorations (vials / bones and guts?). This would give the building a more permanent and firm appearance, without going overboard and making it look too "epic".

 

[Kyrbi0]

I continue to be busy, but I have certainly not forgotten this.

I am dually surprised; I've now got three people telling me "the base is the biggest deal", whereas I basically glazed right over it. Lol. (Probably just means I made the right decision in going public with it).

To be honest that something missing from nearly all my Troll buildings; a custom base, a custom ground texture, and a custom build model/animation. (I'm not even sure which of those I need, much less how to go about making them...).

In looking at the other faction's structures, it seems that not all of them have the 'racial base'. However, I should probably still have a custom one prepared, for when I do needs it.

So far, the closest thing I have/what I was probably going to go with was actually something worked up by @Cuore for the Troll Town Hall we collaborated on: essentially the same mesh as the Orc base, but rewrapped with the Voodoo Lounge texture.

I'm at work now but I'll try to get home and get some pictures to show you guys, and see if it helps.

 

[Deolrin]

I'm not at all suggesting that you should use a racial base for all of your structures, but rather that it be used sparingly, much like the Orcish one. Every building has a base of sorts, but not all of them are visible above ground - usually the 'base' is simply a box of wood / stone underneath the building to serve as a foundation. This is to make sure the building doesn't look awkward when built on a slope or uneven ground.

I would highly recommend getting a custom ground texture, at least. That would require a 2D artist, but you could replace the Naga one with something more fitting to your race. All of the other races have a unique ground texture (again, not the exact same one for all building of a certain race, see Human Town Hall for example), it helps establish racial coherence. Getting a custom birth animation is a longer term goal which would do wonders for you aesthetically as well.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I'm not at all suggesting that you should use a racial base for all of your structures, but rather that it be used sparingly, much like the Orcish one. Every building has a base of sorts, but not all of them are visible above ground - usually the 'base' is simply a box of wood / stone underneath the building to serve as a foundation. This is to make sure the building doesn't look awkward when built on a slope or uneven ground.

Yes, of course... Ok, seems we're on the same page here. I recognize the "generic racial base" doesn't exist on every structure that race builds. But however many, it is consistent, & thematic, which is something I should strive for.

I would highly recommend getting a custom ground texture, at least. That would require a 2D artist, but you could replace the Naga one with something more fitting to your race. All of the other races have a unique ground texture (again, not the exact same one for all building of a certain race, see Human Town Hall for example), it helps establish racial coherence. Getting a custom birth animation is a longer term goal which would do wonders for you aesthetically as well.

Really? Hm, in my own mental hierarchy I thought it would be different.

I might be able to find someone to work on a Custom Ground Texture for me, so that's good. The Custom Base, we'll see.

When it comes to Custom Build Animation/Model, I'm really curious about that; what are the pros & cons of the either choice? I notice that the Humans & Orcs all have "Build Animations"; that is, all their building models have built-in the geosets (scaffolding, hammers, screens), animations (whacking, banging, constructing) & SFX (dust clouds mostly) necessary for Building. However, the Undead & Night Elf, if I'm not mistaken, instead of entire actual separate "Build Models", a separate, Shared model that is referenced in the racial structure's Node hierarchy; it has it's own geosets/animations/SFX, separate from the normal/actual structure, that it uses.

Which should I do? Does it matter? Which is 'better' & why?

 

[Deolrin]

Even the Undead & Night Elf models incorporate both a shared model and a custom Birth animation on all of their buildings. The Undead buildings' animation is basically just the building's outline appearing in ghastly green right towards the end of the animation. The Night Elves' has the Ancient grow towards the end so that it doesn't just appear out of thin air. What you want to achieve is entirely up to you. Undead buildings are Summoned by an Acolyte, and therefore having a magical summoning circle makes sense. Night Elves use spirits that transform into ancient tree creatures, or alternatively use nature magic to construct pollution-free shrines and halls to support their warriors. On the other hand, humans and orcs physically construct their buildings. Truth be told, you could use a shared model while still maintaining a birth animation that physically shows the buildings being constructed - the Orcish birth animation could instead be a shared model, but pieces of the actual buildings can be animated inside the building's birth animation instead. It really depends on what you want to accomplish and how the modeller chooses to work. I recommend you sort out a concept for how troll buildings should be built (in difference to the other races', or maybe inspired by them) and work from there.

And as a side note, most buildings of a specific race share a ground texture, but there are some exceptions. All Human buildings share a ground texture with the exception of the Town Hall, Keep and Castle, which use a unique one to signify their status. Night Elven buildings use two different types of ground texture - one with roots for Ancients and one that's just grass and stones for non-Ancients. All Orcish buildings share a ground texture with no exceptions, and the same applies to Undead structures (it's this cool crater in the Blight). Unfortunately... While experimenting with this, I found out that Naga only use a custom ground texture for their Temple of Tides, and they use a Human ground texture for all of their other buildings... This complicates matters somewhat. I'm not sure if it's possible to add ground textures to the game.

 

[Retera]

I happened to be reading this, and just wanted to note that it is absolutely 100% possible to add ground textures to the game. All that you have to do is import a file in your map called something like "Splats\UberSplatData.slk" with custom ground texture definitions. I have tested this and it works, although it may not show correctly in the World Editor, it will work in game.