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why is the workshop tools so bad?

Discussion in 'Dota 2' started by caleman, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. caleman

    caleman

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    compared to the world editor? making maps on dota 2 seems like its going to be a lot harder and the maps wont be as good, they are gonna have to come up with a miracle with the next workshop tool update, which i doubt they will change much considering how slow and lazy valve is

    i dont know, share your thoughts, workshop tools seems like a dissapointment compared to the world editor which is like 15 years old
     
  2. invalidnick

    invalidnick

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    I used World Editor for WC2 maps like 15 years ago, haven't tried the "new" (updated) WE for WC3, so I can't speak for it pros and cons,

    But a general though, a tool that's been used and updated during the (long) life of WC3 will surely be well optimized, user friendly and highly effective in what it's designed for; making WC3 levels,
    And the fact that people are still enjoying using it is a big testimony of it being successful!

    Where the Dota 2 Workshop Tools Alpha has roughly 9-10 months on its neck, and I would be surprised if the user base (for the tools) are anywhere close to 20:1 - compared to WE (even if the amount of users for the Dota 2 Tools seems to be growing pretty fast), this will most likely change once custom game support have been integrated into the Dota 2 client (without the need of having the SDK installed - similar to any other Source-game)

    So what you are saying is probably true, comparing the tools 1:1 its:

    - Probably easier doing a custom map in WE
    - Probably less bugs in the WE
    - WE is probably more user friendly
    - WE is probably more well integrated in the community and the game

    All of which feels pretty natural at this time considering the big gap in time that these two tools have been accessible for the community,

    Found this awesome speed mapping video of WE:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKzWK1eyPAQ


    This is speed mapping video from Dota 2 tools (not meant to be shameless self promotion, just the only speed mapping movie from the Dota 2 tools on yt I could find :)):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJI5TT8fGa0


    Overall, I'd say that Dota 2 Editor is at a pretty good state (but my opinion might me biased since I've been using Source for so long) especially considering the level of detail the user can choose to edit compared to WE,
    It will probably take a while before the full Source 2 SDK is released, but once it arrives I'm sure we will see a great number of amazing games/mods to be released in the Workshop,
     
  3. caleman

    caleman

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    the 2 videos you posted are about terrain making, which means nothing, warcraft 3 world editor is all about the triggers, the GUI, turning warcraft 3 into whole new games, with whole new gameplay, i have to say this again, workshop tools is LITERALLY GARBAGE compared to w3's world editor, im so dissapointed i feel like assasinating gabe newell (hey just a joke dont delete the post)
     
  4. Napoqe

    Napoqe

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    I do not know if Valve is lazy, but I think that trying developing the more possible with the help of communities, and also think try hire people who made custom modes and maps for games. Until the moment I think the Valve a good company in my conception.

    What I think that DotA 2 missing in the map editor:

    - Visual Scripts (for people that no have knowing on programing can try to make cool maps with divisions in triggers and object editor, organization.

    - Simpler options navagar in terrains (maps), models (preview) and scripts.

    - A place to edit scripts and suggest new.

    - Etc.
     
  5. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

    Spell Reviewer

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    Do not make me laugh...

    People need to realise that development times are just longer when using games like DotA2 and SC2. The extra freedom allows for one to do so much but also means doing something that was trivial in WC3 will also take a lot of time.
     
  6. Noya

    Noya

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    I don't know what mod did you try to make that frustrated you enough to make these conclusions. Maps won't be as good? What does that even mean, we can do every sort of custom UI imaginable, all sorts of terrains as showcased by invalidnick, and the scripting capabilities of the DD system with the Lua API are way more powerful than the obscure JASS ways of the WE. It ain't no UE4, I give you that.

    GUI/Visual Triggers aren't a necessity in the sightless, what's currently limiting the Workshop Tools is just the lack of art assets and some very critical potholes in Source 2 and the API. I'm maintaining a list of bugs and suggestions here, which will have to be fixed before S2 is released this year hopefully.

    As someone who's really involved and concerned in making Dota 2 modding grow and been working with the Tools for around 8 months now, I understand the frustration of dealing with Valve's laziness, I recently had to put my WC3 to Dota port on hold because of it, but I'm also sure these issues will be attended at some point, and there's quite a lot of things to discover and experiment with in the meantime, like the recent 3rd person shooter findings
     
  7. invalidnick

    invalidnick

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    "maps" for me usually mean plain maps - also refered to as "levels", in comparison with campaigns, that usually implies some type of scripting, if that's JASS, LUA or something more simplified like kismet (aka blueprint) or any other type of node scripting or event based scripting, so when you say:

    I though you were talking about making maps, not necessary making new "games", if you would have expanded your post by actually saying what you think is wrong, or what problems you have had using the Dota 2 tools pointing out a specific well-used and awesome function in WE that Dota 2 SDK lacks I'd be on the same page,
    Some of the Custom games at the Dota 2 Workshop are perfect example of that its very possible to make awesome custom game modes that share no real resemblance with dota2 - and the rest is a matter of replacing the "art",

    Also take into consideration that the Dota 2 SDK is not shipped together with Dota 2 (like WE was with WCIII), and since Dota 2 is made in Source we are yet to see any shipped game made entirely in Source 2,

    What I totally missed in my previous post was to say that Source(2) is not about one game, it's about multiple games - to which the counter argument is "a tool made for multiple types of games can never be better than a tool made for a specific game", which is wrong since it's already proven not to be the case (with almost all other game engines out there).
    This is something Blizzard tried to do with the SC2 editor (which it seems like a legit engine to make games in, but I prefer Source, Unreal, Unity or Frostbite) - but I would be willing to give it a serious try before I say anything else, it might be super awesome!

    TLDR;

    What is it that you are so disappointed in?
    I have no idea what other tools you work in, or what you base your arguments on but as a example: if you are use Unreal, do you refer to Unity as garbage after closing it down when realizing that it does not have the same layout/functions as Unreal?
    Do you say that Photoshop is garbage just because you are used to Gimp?

    It seems like a very narrow mindset, I bet you would become a even better WE user by learning Dota 2 SDK!
     
  8. GhostWolf

    GhostWolf

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    This is just another case of someone using a very restricted engine from 13 years ago, when it was fairly easy to make resources, and just now realizing that, hey! the world changed since then!, and ops, it's now harder to make stuff, because you actually need to know things!