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[Campaign] What if Archimonde had conquered Mount Hyjal?

Discussion in 'Idea Factory' started by BlueSaint, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. BlueSaint

    BlueSaint

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    Lore nerds, I'm in dire need of your counsel. I'm making a campaign unveiling an alternative timeline where the Burning Legion won the battle of Mount Hyjal.

    What would happen in this case? He'd destroy Nordrassil and gain access to unfathomable powers granted by the Second Well of Eternity. Given how he initially opted to serve under Sargeras out of hunger for power, would he truly remain loyal to Sargeras and pursue the invasion of Burning Legion? If he does, could Azeroth's denizens be capable of opposing him any further? I wouldn't mind the campaign ending in such an apocalypse by the way, I'd just need a rough summary on how such scenario would be carried out in that case: would Archimonde be able to summon Sargeras on the spot or would he have to hound some magical relics? Would Sargeras then slay the nascent Azeroth, who isn't yet a titan and hence defenseless? In what space would this happen, surface of Azeroth?
     
  2. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Considering only the RTS lore or the retcons of WoW too?
    Basically, Azeroth would be doomed or at least, most of it.
    Well, he could try or not even care of Sargeras in away since the titan is so far away and to get to Azeroth proper summoning and power would be needed (if we're not to consider WoW Burning Legion UFOs). I guess Sargeras could get to Azeroth by himself but it would take much longer, time which Archimonde could use to get even stronger. However, Archimonde would still be up against Sargeras, Kil'jaeden (if he doesn't somehow sway most of the Legion to mutiny) and the Burning Legion. However, considering only the RTSs, Sargeras would be weakened possibly even dead since Aegwynn defeated the demonlord on Azeroth, thus why Kil'jaeden was afraid of Medivh in the Warcraft II manual and why we don't hear about Sargeras in Warcraft III except as a dead entity in Frozen Throne.
    If Archimonde becomes that powerful after consuming Nordrassil, then well, only interference from the remaining powers of Azeroth would be able to stop or delay Sargeras' summoning. However, Sargeras could possibly be summoned by the other strong demons but in a bigger time interval. It might not be probable though, since quite the energy was needed to get Sargeras to Azeroth during the War of the Ancients. But, if we consider Sargeras as weakened or alive, one could get his relics from the Tomb and with enough power could possibly fetch Sargeras without Archimonde and the World Tree.
    Well, Sargeras' quest pre-WoW, was to corrupt/demonize everything, so destroying Azeroth won't be too smart, unless the hate for the titans and their creation (which he was a part of?) still lingers so after he drains Azeroth of its power, he could destroy it for the lulz. However, economically and strategically speaking, it would be a waste unless no more titans are left out there (as the RoC manual implies?) and Azeroth is the endgame. Afterwards, Sargeras can kill himself and the Legion with him because there would be no reason to live anymore.
    I don't know but for instance, maybe one could take the Eye of Sargeras (if it still exists? I remember it was destroyed in TfT?) and/or the Jeweled Scepter of Sargeras and use the Maelstrom's energies to summon Sargeras or for own interests.

    Take it or leave it.
     
  3. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    If Archimonde had managed to destroy Mount Hyjal, I think it'd basically boil down to Burning Legion vs Scourge, with the survivors (orcs, night elves, humans) and Illidan as not-quite-big-enough-to-be factions (Illidan might contact the Naga earlier).

    Legion would be stronger in Dalaran, but the rest of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas would be overrun by the Legion, so the entire eastern continent would be a stalemate.

    Archimonde seems to prefer acting through other demons as lieutenants, so defeating him might involve going through the lieutenants he sends to watch over conquered regions (Barrens, Northrend, Lordaeron...) while he stays at Hyjal doing... something.

    Possibly he might send forces to look for artifacts that would allow him to overthrow Sargeras, but as the balance of power tips towards the undead or the other factions (until the Legion holds only the Hyjal Crater), he ends up using them to summon Sargeras out of desperation.

    The Undead would be trying to keep the demons weakened, so they might ignore the living or even 'help' them (as Arthas helped Illidan kill Tichondrius), figuring they'll keep for later.

    The dwarves might close themselves off from the world, keeping themselves safe from either at the cost of not being able to help the other races kick the Legion and Scourge out (maybe the high elves would find refuge there).
     
  4. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Not really much effort, since Ner'zhul will probably become weak or at least won't be able to do much without a body and then probably the Forsaken (?) if they are to become a thing or remain under the Lich King. Ner'zhul needed Archimonde to fail so he could thrive. With Archimonde alive, little chance for the Dreadlords to be defeated and also for the Lich King to not be under the Legion's control.
    Illidan and the naga would probably also be in BL servitude.
    when there isn't something he directly should take care of. Currently, the Lich King would be one of if not the only threat. A lame Scourge+remaining Azeroth factions vs the Legion would be uninteresting but not unplausible. Afterwards, the Lich King could just use the dead of war to bolster forces and gain advantage over the remaining factions.
    Also, Kil'jaeden made the Lich King, so he could be of much help, probably against his demise.
    Everybody's gonna go underground :p
    Well, even so, the dwarves would realize that nowhere would be safe with the legion or undead roaming the world as victors.
     
  5. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Ner'zhul could order Arthas to Northrend immediately to fuse with him to counteract Archimonde (instead of after being weakened by Illidan's spell). From the dreadlords' comments, there's no regular communication between Lordaeron and Kalimdor, so the Scourge could potentially mount a counterattack there. Sylvanas would still be enslaved, though maybe more useful as a ranger than a banshee.

    The Scourge might be able to pull off a repeat of the Varimathras subplot by cornering him and forcing him to collaborate against the other demon lieutenants (since there's more of them now, it might be easier to do).

    Not sure where Kil'Jaeden fits pre-Frozen Throne. Is he a subordinate or an equal of Archimonde?

    The dwarves would be more "we can't help just yet, we need to make sure our mountains are unassailable" than outright refusing to help. Turtling worked for the Worgen, after all.

    Other possibilities are the orcs going fel with a different pit lord (as Thrall's vision of standing united against the demons failed pretty hard), Jaina's humans looking for alternate sources of magic, the night elves dealing with the loss of the tree and going wrong...
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Sure. However, if we are to consider WoW stuff, Arthas will rule and not Ner'zhul or both so, I don't know what memories he'll have. Will he know everything Ner'zhul knew?
    Lordaeron remnants would still be there possibly even grouping with other human kingdoms/factions.
    Not like they didn't teleport like crazy anywhere (limited range, maybe?). Could Arthas+Ner'zhul take the undead from the grasp of the dreadlords? If nothing else, at least one of the dreadlords could go to Kalimdor to notify Archimonde if not the Legion already announcing their victory to the dreadlords before that.
    Well, I guess she was always a Banshee (since RoC). All that stuff with having a body, is a WoW addition. Strangely, in Battle for Azeroth, they made Sylvanas have a (transitive but temporary?) Banshee form.
    WoW says they are brothers. I have no idea. I assume Archimonde is the physically tougher one, or at least the one mostly preoccupied with war/fighting while Kil'jaeden is more of a strategist/scheme maker, mind player.
    Meh, because the Gilneans were cursed? Or after they became Werewolves?

    All in all, it's for @BlueSaint to decide how things turn out since he's supposed to be the fanfic maker.

    Question(s) is/are:
    1. Would Legion vs Scourge make an interesting story? Where do the other factions fit in? Many players would love to play as Arthas but this campaign is supposed to be about the Legion? Many also like Archimonde.
    2. Or, just keep it demon vs demon style, would that be interesting?

    Maybe, mix everything in: Kil'jaeden doesn't really like Archimonde and/or the other way around, somehow helping the LK to kill Kj and his servants thus making Archimonde supreme (because the LK would probably not work with Kj against Archimonde) and afterwards; basically infighting till the point that Sargeras would have fewer and fewer possibilities of getting to Azeroth or being able to destroy/conquer it.

    Most important question: what do you want to convey with such a story?

    My head hurts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  7. BlueSaint

    BlueSaint

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    I'm planning on accounting the WoW retcons.

    In Antorus Ending Cinematic Sargeras is seen manifested as cloud substance above Azeroth, getting materialized and subsequently imprisoned by the Pantheon. Could it be that he had been observing during the events of RoC? I'm not a WoW player so I don't know if that's even the same timeline as RoC...

    Archimonde would be antagonist in my books (so no playing as him). Unless I include the Void Lords urging to corrupt Azeroth at her weakest, in which situation I would imagine Sargeras order Archimonde fend off the Void.

    But aren't demons immortal who go to nether upon death? "Hey bro, sorry for killing you back there, no hard feelings, 'kay?" "Yeah don't worry 'bout it mate, shit happens."

    Edit: I didn't even think of Legion vs Scourge, because Archimonde deemed Lich King unimportant factor after being summoned, this reflecting the power dynamic between the two. In other words, he could've squashed Ner'zhul like a fly on will.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  8. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Leaving the question of who exactly the heroes are going to be, if the only ones with the numbers to pose a threat are that underleveled compared to the Legion.
     
  9. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Much stuff changed after Warlords of Draenor, alternate timeline and all. You can do some reading on the wikis.
    That would be lame for Sargeras to have always been around Azeroth, especially when he needed a summoning process to get to Azeroth in WotA. As for, just observing, the titan could have done it from somewhere else (Twisting Nether, Argus... if you prefer).
    That's something WoW introduced. In RoC's manual Sargeras had to lock them somewhere in a vacuous corner of the Nether because they were strong, not because they went to the TN and came back. All other demons were destroyed but the Eredar were/are the strongest. Basically, of all demons he had to lock the Nathrezim and the Eredar. It doesn't say they are immortal but that they were powerful. So, maybe, it was easier to lock them than kill them.
    Yeah but with Arthas merging with him, that would have changed(?). However, I don't see it working with Archimonde draining the tree's juices.
     
  10. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Even if they're immortal, being killed in the material world is probably a setback to them, considering how much time and effort went into summoning Archimonde.
     
  11. BlueSaint

    BlueSaint

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    Two scenarios emerge in my mind:
    1. Betrayal. Archimonde subverts Sargeras' word, because his motive for allegiance was power, not sharing Sargeras' agenda per se. About the resurrection in nether thing, I presume they'd simply proceed to bicker in TN as well. Protagonist here would be Archimonde, who doesn't want to destroy all existence because he wants to thrive, thus exist, himself.
    2. Void intervention. Pantheon speculated that after gestation, Azeroth would be capable of ending Void once and for all, making her their impending doom if not dealt with. As such, it'd make sense for Void Lords to seize every opportunity at hand to corrupt Azeroth. Our 'hero' would be Archimonde, who would fend off spawns of Void per instructed by Sargeras, whose sole agenda is to purge Void.

    Agreed. I read some fan speculation on why Sargeras was overhead Azeroth. General consesus seemed to be that he wanted Azeroth submit under his will.

    Well, I want to adhere to WoW lore. So I'd resolve any discrepancy per WoW's stance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Yeah, only they were not destroying but undoing what the Pantheon did, turning order to chaos.
    Never liked deus ex machina McGuffin lameness. Maybe, you'd want to actually address a philosophy in all this. There can't be order without chaos and the other way around. Maybe what the titans were doing, was breaking the balance of the universe into its extinction or something.
     
  13. Tuwnew

    Tuwnew

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    Have you ideas of which faction(s) you want to be playable?

    Because you can make Archimonde vs Sargeras, starring demons.
    But also, the remnants factions on Azeroth which may be able to retake their lands since Archimonde and Sargeras are busy fighting together.

    Or also be Kil'Jaeden who must choose one side.
     
  14. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    So it's a mostly-demons campaign.

    You could have levels where the demons tempt/trick survivors into joining them or at least fighting each other, reducing the total number of enemies.
     
  15. BlueSaint

    BlueSaint

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    @deepstrasz
    I believe the three big motives are: erase all (Sargeras), protect all (Pantheon), corrupt all (Void Lords).
    So I don't think you're in the right for saying Legion turned order to chaos. Sargeras would've eventually gotten rid of Legion, leaving the cosmos in lesser state of entropy (chaos), thus regaining order in it. Void on the other hand thrives on chaos and misfortune.

    I'm considering only the melee races. Maybe allies could use demonic races or so. This is because:
    1. Player doesn't have to learn a new tech tree
    2. Custom hotkeys will work
    3. Blizzard assets used: Reforged compatible
    4. Player can focus on figuring out the mission, not the race
    How this ties into the giant proportions the story would entertain, I've no idea. :clol:
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    When Sargeras tried to defeat the demons he went into a depression. What makes you think he won't do the same afterwards and lose :p?
    A good campaign doesn't recycle material.
     
  17. BlueSaint

    BlueSaint

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    Maybe, maybe not. This would be outside the scope of the campaign though, so luckily I don't have to delve into such nuances.

    Why?
     
  18. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Because playing the same thing over and over again is boring. You had to do that at least two times in the original campaigns.
     
  19. BlueSaint

    BlueSaint

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    If a mission grows boring on you, why would you jump into blaming the tech tree? I don't see the connection. Isn't it the objective itself failing to be exciting?
     
  20. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    A map maker has to be creative in all aspects.