[Development] Warcraft III or Starcraft II?

[Sir Shockwave]

Hello,

I've been away for a while, but recently I picked up some inspiration again to pick up this old project some of you may remember. However, there's a debate going on at the moment as to what I should use to get back to work with it. On the one hand...

Warcraft III

+ Familiar with the basics of Mapping and Triggering. Don't ask me how to build lengthy triggers, but can walk my away around the editor without too many issues.
+ A version of this project already exists in this Editor, so we can basically just pick up the work there (or transfer over old code into a new map if I decide to do that).
+ Good variety of public assets to pull from.
+ Game core basics (i.e: The Hero System) good for this sort of thing.

- Possibly clunky gameplay - Warcraft III after all was designed with Swords and Magic in mind over Guns & Ammo after all.
- Map Size Limit - trying to remember if it's 8MB or 80MB. Either way, Size Limit is bad.

Starcraft II

+ Much, much more powerful Map Builder.
+ Better designed to incorporate Science Fiction.
+ The Arcade Feature.
+ Less dependant on Public Models.
+ Potentially larger maps.

- I am completely unfamiliar with how the SC II Map Editor works. This means requiring LOTS more help putting everything together, especially in terms of Trigger Coding and Scenario Design.
- In addition to a possible size limit, maps are subject to approval from Blizzard - who can pull your map/game mode if they find something they dislike.
- Longer time to wait before beginning because Legacy of the Void.
- Unsure if Public Models exist.

I'm sure there's some Pro's and Con's I'm missing off here, but I'm wondering what people would prefer to play and experience it on and then get back to work.

PS: I mention Public Assets quite a bit. While I have some 3D Modelling experience, 3D Modelling is something that in order to construct something good, I would require either a Tutor or a Course on doing (which as I checked, the closest anyone in my area does on any of this is a CAD course, which would only give experience in modelling very specific things). Plus, I also heard that you need someone who can skin and animate a Model, which I have zero experience in. So for now I depend on Public Models and/or kind requests. Just so we're clear on that.

PPS: If I've posted this thread in the wrong place, I apologise. I wasn't 100% on where a topic like this should go.

 

[Laiev]

Warcraft III
- Map Size Limit - trying to remember if it's 8MB or 80MB. Either way, Size Limit is bad.

8Mb right now, unfortunately .

Starcraft II
- I am completely unfamiliar with how the SC II Map Editor works. This means requiring LOTS more help putting everything together, especially in terms of Trigger Coding and Scenario Design.
- In addition to a possible size limit, maps are subject to approval from Blizzard - who can pull your map/game mode if they find something they dislike.
- Longer time to wait before beginning because Legacy of the Void.
- Unsure if Public Models exist.

You will not need trigger at first, try to focus on Data at all, if for some reason it's impossible to do it without trigger (UI for example), them go to trigger.
Actually, you don't need approval from Blizzard, you can publish it as you want (someone correct me if I'm wrong please).
You don't need to wait for LotV, just do it with HotS, the change from one editor to another will be little things (for better).
Public models exist, as you can see here and here, but it's a lot less then Warcraft.


My opinion on what do is if you're looking something long term, do Starcraft, also it will make your map a lot better, since it is focused on Starcraft at all. The only problem is that you'll have no help at all for doing this, since Starcraft is basically dead (look at the Warcraft forum and them Starcraft, no one ever care about Starcraft at all, probably because of some limitation and the lack of resources Blizzard provide us). We (I'm one of them) expect Blizzard fix those problems with LotV.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

8Mb right now, unfortunately .

That's...kind of what I thought. So I'm not 100% sure it's big enough to do everything that I want to do, so I might have to downscale plans or something.

You will not need trigger at first, try to focus on Data at all, if for some reason it's impossible to do it without trigger (UI for example), them go to trigger.

So...what's the difference exactly between the two?

Actually, you don't need approval from Blizzard, you can publish it as you want (someone correct me if I'm wrong please).

Last thing I heard was that you needed approval, but if that's the case ignore me on that one.

You don't need to wait for LotV, just do it with HotS, the change from one editor to another will be little things (for better).

True, but Void has some Mod Logics I want to try out (*cough* HERC *cough*, in addition to anything we don't know about). The problem is if I started with HOTS, I wouldn't be able to upgrade or use the new logics/units/stuff when Void comes along.

Also, something I missed off - I'd need to remake the whole Hero Units system from Warcraft. Unless there's a Tutorial on that. Yeah, SC II is gonna need a lot of Tutorials...

Public models exist, as you can see here and here, but it's a lot less then Warcraft.

Yes, but I may need less Public Models anyway, so it's not too big an issue. However, it does mean it would be very much Starcraft Flavour rather than something original.

My opinion on what do is if you're looking something long term, do Starcraft, also it will make your map a lot better, since it is focused on Starcraft at all. The only problem is that you'll have no help at all for doing this, since Starcraft is basically dead (look at the Warcraft forum and them Starcraft, no one ever care about Starcraft at all, probably because of some limitation and the lack of resources Blizzard provide us). We (I'm one of them) expect Blizzard fix those problems with LotV.

 

[Laiev]

So...what's the difference exactly between the two?

Like a lot difference, but the Object Editor (Data Editor) from Starcraft is more powerful them Warcraft, a lot more powerful. You can do knockups, dashs, deals damage, apply slows, block missiles, and other things.

Last thing I heard was that you needed approval, but if that's the case ignore me on that one.

I never heard about it (since I get the editor to really do something this early, so I don't know everything what happen before), but it's possible, but right now, I don't think so. As I said, Starcraft is 'too dead' for Blizzard care about a new map upload.

True, but Void has some Mod Logics I want to try out (*cough* HERC *cough*, in addition to anything we don't know about). The problem is if I started with HOTS, I wouldn't be able to upgrade or use the new logics/units/stuff when Void comes along.

Actually you'll . LotV will not break compatibility, it would be stupid if Blizzard do such a thing, at most a small change that would be easy to fix.

Also, something I missed off - I'd need to remake the whole Hero Units system from Warcraft. Unless there's a Tutorial on that. Yeah, SC II is gonna need a lot of Tutorials...

Ya, Starcraft need a lot of love, a lot of dedication, and a lot of new resources.

Yes, but I may need less Public Models anyway, so it's not too big an issue. However, it does mean it would be very much Starcraft Flavour rather than something original.

For you, it's a good thing? Huh?
For me is a bad thing, since I dislike Sci-Fi, and I'm trying to unStarcraft-The-Starcraft .

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Like a lot difference, but the Object Editor (Data Editor) from Starcraft is more powerful them Warcraft, a lot more powerful. You can do knockups, dashs, deals damage, apply slows, block missiles, and other things.

Whereas that stuff would take forever and a day to make in Warcraft III?

I never heard about it (since I get the editor to really do something this early, so I don't know everything what happen before), but it's possible, but right now, I don't think so. As I said, Starcraft is 'too dead' for Blizzard care about a new map upload.

I remember Blizzard being responsible for a few things, but again - if someone more experienced than me pops in to say Blizzard has any say in Map Design, then we can ignore this one.

Actually you'll . LotV will not break compatibility, it would be stupid if Blizzard do such a thing, at most a small change that would be easy to fix.

It would be stupid, but I like to keep my bases covered.

Ya, Starcraft need a lot of love, a lot of dedication, and a lot of new resources.

Which I would contribute to if I could, especially since I like the people at Hive. Sure, we have fallings out sometimes, but for the most part the people at Hive are awesome. As opposed to a certain other community I've been around with.

For you, it's a good thing? Huh?
For me is a bad thing, since I dislike Sci-Fi, and I'm trying to unStarcraft-The-Starcraft .

Of course that's the other thing - I could always translate from Sci-Fi to Fantasy.

The main point however is that SC II base comes with a lot of Models I can already use - the Marine, Reaper, Ghost, Firebat and Medic to name a couple. The problem comes in mostly for Modelling new enemies. Zerg and Protoss are nice, but it does make it look kinda samey.

Back to the previous point, I'm curious - are you building new things from scratch, or just Extracting and Converting Warcraft III assets? I'm not 100% on this, but since they're both Blizzard Games I guess it'd be okay...

 

[Laiev]

Whereas that stuff would take forever and a day to make in Warcraft III?

Well, it's definitely more easy to do them on Warcraft IF you don't know anything about the editor at all, but after some time using the editor, you'll see how basic the concept behind it is, and it'll be more friendly them Warcraft.

I remember Blizzard being responsible for a few things, but again - if someone more experienced than me pops in to say Blizzard has any say in Map Design, then we can ignore this one.

I don't know how this 'transition' on Warcraft happen, if Blizzard actually did something, or if people discover the world of the editor after some years, I heard something about it, but unsure, maybe someone help us? ;P

It would be stupid, but I like to keep my bases covered.

We're same here, but as I can see, you're not lazy, and if Starcraft make success with the assets of Warcraft 3 in LotV, them definitely it will be motivation enough to fix anything.

Which I would contribute to if I could, especially since I like the people at Hive. Sure, we have fallings out sometimes, but for the most part the people at Hive are awesome. As opposed to a certain other community I've been around with.

I would like too, but I don't know how. I like the place Hive, ever not knowing so much people (most of them gone ), most of time people are nice and try the best to help others .

Of course that's the other thing - I could always translate from Sci-Fi to Fantasy.

Give me your magic, NAO!
I really can't like Sci-Fi theme .

The main point however is that SC II base comes with a lot of Models I can already use - the Marine, Reaper, Ghost, Firebat and Medic to name a couple. The problem comes in mostly for Modelling new enemies. Zerg and Protoss are nice, but it does make it look kinda samey.

I'm the oppose I like more Protoss and Zerg assets them Terrain.

Back to the previous point, I'm curious - are you building new things from scratch, or just Extracting and Converting Warcraft III assets? I'm not 100% on this, but since they're both Blizzard Games I guess it'd be okay...

What did you mean with 'new things from scratch'? It sounds like a separated game. I really wanna use Warcraft III assets, but I, by myself, will not convert it because of a number of reason. One of them are because of the poly, the animation, the quality, and others.
There's a long discussion about allowing or not allowing the use of Blizzard game assets, but some time ago, Blizzard said in someplace (don't ask me where, I don't remember) that it is ok.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Well, it's definitely more easy to do them on Warcraft IF you don't know anything about the editor at all, but after some time using the editor, you'll see how basic the concept behind it is, and it'll be more friendly them Warcraft.

I finished the Basic Mapping Tutorial if that counts for anything. Might have to redo it though... X3

We're same here, but as I can see, you're not lazy, and if Starcraft make success with the assets of Warcraft 3 in LotV, them definitely it will be motivation enough to fix anything.

Well, if I can do it I'd do it myself - if I can't, I go ask for help or put in a request. It's the way things should be really.

I would like too, but I don't know how. I like the place Hive, ever not knowing so much people (most of them gone ), most of time people are nice and try the best to help others .

Contributing really is as simple as making a Map or Mod. It doesn't have to be 3D Models. Plus, people seem to (*Gasp*) LIKE you for using their Models and stuff.

Give me your magic, NAO!
I really can't like Sci-Fi theme .

Slow down there Cowboy - it's on the table, but I'm not 100% sure about it right now. We'd need a new name for starters... X3

I'm the oppose I like more Protoss and Zerg assets them Terrain.

It's not so much about the assets as much as appropriateness. Calling a Zealot a Marine for example is a bit of a strech of things X3

What did you mean with 'new things from scratch'? It sounds like a separated game. I really wanna use Warcraft III assets, but I, by myself, will not convert it because of a number of reason. One of them are because of the poly, the animation, the quality, and others.
There's a long discussion about allowing or not allowing the use of Blizzard game assets, but some time ago, Blizzard said in someplace (don't ask me where, I don't remember) that it is ok.

By "from scratch" I mean "building the models yourself". It sounds like you're at least building them "by hand" at any rate.

 

[Laiev]

I finished the Basic Mapping Tutorial if that counts for anything. Might have to redo it though... X3

I start slowly and then I increase the amount of tutorial reading by 6x, so I get 'bombarded' with Starcraft things and start to learn. At least is how I do when I want to learn something.

Contributing really is as simple as making a Map or Mod. It doesn't have to be 3D Models. Plus, people seem to (*Gasp*) LIKE you for using their Models and stuff.

I'll think about it, what can I do for it. But also, there's a problem with Hive. Seems like Hive hold a mark called WARCRAFT so strong that is impossible to dis-assimilate it, so Starcraft lose strength.

Slow down there Cowboy - it's on the table, but I'm not 100% sure about it right now. We'd need a new name for starters... X3

I can't help you with this, I take almost 30m-2hours to select a nickname every time I create a new character.

By "from scratch" I mean "building the models yourself". It sounds like you're at least building them "by hand" at any rate.

I'm not a modeler, maybe someday I would be, but probably not. But I'm trying to guide myself in this world. I really like everything about game, include modeling, texturing, terraining, historing, designing, everything, so I try my best to do a hard work .

 

[Sir Shockwave]

I start slowly and then I increase the amount of tutorial reading by 6x, so I get 'bombarded' with Starcraft things and start to learn. At least is how I do when I want to learn something.

Whereas I don't do so well learning by reading X3

I'll think about it, what can I do for it. But also, there's a problem with Hive. Seems like Hive hold a mark called WARCRAFT so strong that is impossible to dis-assimilate it, so Starcraft lose strength.

To be fair, Hive started out as a Warcraft III place. I'm surprised Starcraft is even considered here.

I can't help you with this, I take almost 30m-2hours to select a nickname every time I create a new character.

I'm the same, but oh well. I'm sure it'll come to me X3

I'm not a modeler, maybe someday I would be, but probably not. But I'm trying to guide myself in this world.

Oh.

 

[A Void]

You can use 8 MB Map Size Limit Remover tool from the tools section. It removes the 8MB limit. Warcraft 3 has plenty of resources to construct your project, SC2 on the other hand has fairly low amount compared to WC3. With a little bit of hard creative work you can completely outdo Starcraft II. Starcraft II however, can help you create entirely a new game with almost no limitations. I could help you out with World Editor if you want, WC3 has a larger community with hundreds of tutorials and work-around ways to get as close as SC2 offers.

SC2 has a very impractical object editor, it takes ages to find and fill out data. While WC3 has the most necessary listed accordingly. You have to go trough cons and pros depending on what type of project you are making. Good Luck.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

You can use 8 MB Map Size Limit Remover tool from the tools section. It removes the 8MB limit.

There's a tool for that? Huh X3

Warcraft 3 has plenty of resources to construct your project, SC2 on the other hand has fairly low amount compared to WC3. With a little bit of hard creative work you can completely outdo Starcraft II. Starcraft II however, can help you create entirely a new game with almost no limitations. I could help you out with World Editor if you want, WC3 has a larger community with hundreds of tutorials and work-around ways to get as close as SC2 offers.

SC2 has a very impractical object editor, it takes ages to find and fill out data. While WC3 has the most necessary listed accordingly. You have to go trough cons and pros depending on what type of project you are making.

True, I'm just trying to work out which one I should go with right now and I'd thought I'd ask.

Nice to see so many people offering to help X3

 

[A Void]

There's a tool for that? Huh X3



True, I'm just trying to work out which one I should go with right now and I'd thought I'd ask.

Nice to see so many people offering to help X3

Yes, here is a link. I had voted on Wc3.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Yes, here is a link. I had voted on Wc3.

Thanks for the link! X3

 

[Sir Shockwave]

So I did about 20 minuites or so of messing around...and I can't say I'm a fan of the SC II Editor's mapping section. The raising/lowering of terrain specifically as it never quite seems to be as smooth. With Warcraft 3 I just click the tab and I get a clean lower. Here? I can't seem to make a good wall with the terrain. And the Doodads don't seem to have any good/appropriate walls/barriers in them either X3

 

[Laiev]

So I did about 20 minuites or so of messing around...and I can't say I'm a fan of the SC II Editor's mapping section. The raising/lowering of terrain specifically as it never quite seems to be as smooth.

What? There's a smooth tool on both editor, both of them use basically the same terrain editor. The only great difference is the water function, which Starcraft is a lot better imo.

With Warcraft 3 I just click the tab and I get a clean lower. Here? I can't seem to make a good wall with the terrain. And the Doodads don't seem to have any good/appropriate walls/barriers in them either X3

Here are some basics Blizzard did on terrain editor.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

What? There's a smooth tool on both editor, both of them use basically the same terrain editor. The only great difference is the water function, which Starcraft is a lot better imo.

That's the thing - the Smooth Tool isn't exactly producing consistant results on that front.

 

[Laiev]

Really? here works like a charm

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Really? here works like a charm

As I drag the Smooth Tool along, it starts off being high but then for some reason the terrain started to dip in depth...

 

[Laiev]

As I drag the Smooth Tool along, it starts off being high but then for some reason the terrain started to dip in depth...

What size are you using? As long I tested, as higher the size, better and more natural the terrain will be but more area will be changed

 

[Sir Shockwave]

What size are you using? As long I tested, as higher the size, better and more natural the terrain will be but more area will be changed

I was using 16 because 256x256 map.

 

[Laiev]

Most of time, I use 6 because it's enough for me can you show some print with the issue? Like, before and after?}

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Nevermind, I think I fixed things.

I'm gonna start Terraining in a little while, but this is a basic overview. Incidentally, I've had to check Ignore Placement for the Forcefields because yes, they DO clip though the Terrain and going back and forth with the Smooth Tool only makes things worse, so... X3

 

[Laiev]

At Starcraft, I really enjoy doing terrain, I don't know why.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

If you can bare the difficulty of galaxy editor, I suggest starcraft. But otherwise I'd go for wc, just for the sake of getting something done.

 

[Eagle XI]

If do want your work to get actually played go SC2 all the way, since WC3 is pretty much ghost-town with the remaining playerbase being dedicated players of whichever map they are fond of, various bots and the occasional nostalgic person passing-by thrown in.
As others pointed out your primary source of difficulty will be learning the editor itself, but see it this way:
That you will have to learn it only once in your life and then can ever use it to create pretty much whatever you want. Inspecially taking into account the recent announces made at Blizzcon concerning LotV id recommend to consider it this way.
Your second "problem" will be with the arcade system itself, since you see whilst games are going around the clock there is mostly the same 100 or so maps being played. However this has more to do with those maps being actively developed and supported thus preferred over the derelict rest.
The players on SC2 arcade are of the rather more 'open-minded' (so to put) individuals and dont mind to try something new once in a while or arent shy of learning a map throughly incase it had the depth theyve been seeking for.
Also dont even pay any attention to those 'SC2 is dead' or '..will die soon' trolling BS because hey feel free to just log-in yourself at any server thanks to global play feature and see for yourself how alive and kicking the place is. Not having or unable to find players/testers isnt a problem.
TL;DR: SC2 all the way if you will make anything other than yet another DotA clone. If you want to make another DotA clone, please stay in wc3 and rot along.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

TL;DR: SC2 all the way if you will make anything other than yet another DotA clone. If you want to make another DotA clone, please stay in wc3 and rot along.

Depends on how you view The Last Stand mode from Dawn of War - DOTA or not so DOTA? X3

 

[Eagle XI]

Oh, thats not even remotely related, go ahead then.
I love playing Sorceror (albeit highest score we could get so far was in a triple-tyrant playthrough) in The Last Stand, shame it never got more maps other than 'Khorne's Anvil' and got that cheesemasterly Tau-cmdr added in.
Also check

PsychoMC's The Last Stand

which is dow2's TLS mode in sc2.
Dunno on which server you are but if cant find it at your place come over to EU.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Oh, thats not even remotely related, go ahead then.
I love playing Sorceror (albeit highest score we could get so far was in a triple-tyrant playthrough) in The Last Stand, shame it never got more maps other than 'Khorne's Anvil' and got that cheesemasterly Tau-cmdr added in.
Also check

which is dow2's TLS mode in sc2.
Dunno on which server you are but if cant find it at your place come over to EU.

I play EU being British and all. It's definitely there.

That said as you say, if all the Warcraft guys just make DOTA Clones all day, surely someone would appreciate something that's - y'know - NOT a DOTA Clone?

 

[BlinkBoy]

Btw don't let people discourage you with the Data editor.

It's complex at first but after some practice, you'll wish wc3 had one. It has a lot of layers of complexity but after a while you'll realise that you don't need to recreate as much data as people tell you. mostly you should design your game from the start and think on what data you need.

Sc2's trigger compared to Wc3's is not only more powerful but also easier to use and depends less on your knowledge of the back language(Galaxy) to do complex stuffs.

About the rest, it's way more simple. Specialy the terrain editor and cutscene editor.

Something that is extremely important in Sc2, is tutorials. if your map does not have a decent tutorial, people will hesitate on trying it. It's important to do good publicity for your map. I normaly look around the maps in the arcade and there are many good which I never tried out before mainly because they didn't say much about how they worked or where the fun was.

 

[AIagremm]

Starcraft 2 is better as an editor, but its features repel the users.