Warcraft 3 Reforged - Plot

[Whisper]

Let's discuss about Wc3R plot.
Changes, retcons, ideas etc.

 

[Rahko]

I made a post about retcons on the official forums. And this is pretty much all the retcons I found. Feel free to add if anything comes to mind.

• Maps and cartography: Maps and the loading screens would obviously be good to be updated to modern day to prevent confusion among new players
  
  
• Orc skin color: There is one red-skinned orc in Strahnbrad, which questionable, but not necessarily lore-breaking, I guess.
  Also a side note: orcs, who were left back in Eastern Kingdoms and didn’t leave with Thrall, shouldn’t have troll headhunters - not really a retcon, but just an error within the game

• Muradin: In Warcraft 3 it is shown that the ice shard in which the Frostmourne was sealed in, kills Muradin, but this whole scene was later changed and Muradin doesn’t actually die. Also, this doesn't technically have to show in WC3 in any way, therefor the actual retcon only happens in WotLK
  
  
• Dreadlords’ deaths: Not technically a retcon, but in Warcraft 3 it is implied that Mal’Ganis and Balnazzar are killed, when this is later shown not to be the case
  
  
• Illidan’s Blindfold: In the book ‘War of the Ancients: The Well of Eternity’, Illidan is said to have been given an amber bandana by Lady Vashj. In WoW and Warcraft 3, however, Illidan is seen wearing a black bandana. He also drops in WoW a black bandana, which is possibly given to him by Sargeras. It is though possible he lost his old bandana during the 10,000 years, or it grew black with time, so this may not necessarily be a retcon
  
  
• Skull of Gul’dan: Illidan is seen to destroy the Skull of Gul’dan upon absorbing its powers, but it is later seen that it’s not actually destroyed and Illidan takes it with him

Frozen Throne:

• Suramar & Tomb of Sargeras: The Suramar and ToS tilesets should resemble Suramar from WoW, rather than the Sunken Ruins in Warcraft 3
  
  
• Gul’dan’s servants: In Warcraft 3 Gul’dan is shown to have shamans with him, even though during the Second War, Horde didn’t have shamans, but warlocks
  
  
• Blood Elves: Not necessarily a retcon either, but in Warcraft 3 it is implied that only the high elves following Kael’thas are called blood elves, when it is later shown that in fact mostly all (with the exception of a few individuals) high elves changed their name
  
  
• Akama and other draenei: Only retconned thing that I really noticed, was their model. Also, Illidan might raise his eyebrow a bit, because of the similarities between draenei and Kil'jaeden
  
  
• Black Citadel: the tileset should have green-black color scheme like the Shadowmoon Valley in WoW, rather than the Hellfire Peninsula-like red-black
  
  
• Rend & Maim: According to events in WoW there is no way they could be in Outland during the events of Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne, let alone be killed by Illidan and Kael’Thas
  
  
• Chen Stormstout: In Warcraft 3 Chen says he’s from Pandaria, but in WoW Mists of Pandaria Chen says he is in fact from Wandering Isle, and hasn’t ever set foot on Pandaria before the WoW Expansion
  
  
• Rest of the Rexxar campaign: Mulgore should have a more lush tileset as is shown in WoW. Theramore should have a marsh-like tileset as is shown in WoW. In WoW the Stonemaul Clan is located in Dustwallow Marsh rather than Mulgore

So no, I'm not expecting huge differences in the story or the plot of the game. They'll probably add just few lines to the dialogue here and there. On an interview they had a good example:

In the cutscene after the Culling of Stratholme, Uther comes askin Jaina where Arthas is. She finally reveals that Arthas went to Northrend. So Blizz planned they add a line after this Uther asking why would the soldiers disobey their captains' orders to which Jaina responds: "He's Arthas, their prince. They'd do anything for him."

This is a very powerful one line, if you ask me. It immediately shows how Arthas could do what he did and why people followed him. It also shows why Arthas is obsessed with killing Mal'Ganis, because he in return loved his people.

If they keep adding things like this - just a few lines here and there - I'm all for it. And I don't think they'll do anything to "ruin the WC3's story", as many seem to be so afraid of.

 

[Rui]

About the orcs and trolls. I'm convinced orcs and trolls were in Stratholme because Blizzard has not yet reforged the bandit models. So, they used grunts and headhunters as creeps.

As for the Muradin and Mal'Ganis... I think the everyone-revives trend ought to stop.

First, it's a poor excuse for being unable to create good characters. Muradin was underdeveloped, but Mal'Ganis filled his malignant agent role mildly well. His semblance, his lines, his ominous voice, his taunts, proffered amidst a gloomy ambient of rain and cold weather... he was likeable for an antagonist.

Warcraft characters were never relatable besides a certain point, as they never face difficulties or dilemmas you can really relate with. If with sheer force of will you can blow up worlds and live forever, then what's there to relate? Death is an inevitable fate, the greatest source of anguish and distress, and the most powerful driver of human culture. Repeatedly retconning deaths only makes Warcraft seem ever more hollow, at least to me.

 

[Rahko]

About the orcs and trolls. I'm convinced orcs and trolls were in Stratholme because Blizzard has not yet reforged the bandit models. So, they used grunts and headhunters as creeps.

I was talking about the trolls in the second mission of Human campaign and in the Undead campaign mission where there are several orc clans to destroy, so Kel'thuzad can use the Demon Gate.

Death is an inevitable fate, the greatest source of anguish and distress, and the most powerful driver of human culture. Repeatedly retconning deaths only makes Warcraft seem ever more hollow, at least to me.

Yeah, but this in no way matters or affects WC3's story. Even if the whole Azeroth blew up at the start of WoW, WC3's story would have still happened. We didn't know back in 2002 that Muradin survived, and we don't need to be shown that in Reforged either.

 

[Whisper]

• In Roc UD campaign. When we attack high elves we get access to crypt fiends.
  They just walk in. Change it to something: "Let's make use of our new allies from Northrend".

• Make Sylvanas turn into Drow Ranger, not Banshee.

• In Blackrock & Roll, Too! mission we get access to Frost Wyrms.
  Would be nice if Blizz could change it to something liek: we find some dragon boneyard on the map (blackrock orc's killed them) and then Arthas decides to "revive" them.

• I didn't like mounted Arthas in UD campaign.Paladin with frostmourne was the best. Would be nice if they could just reskin him a bit.

• Give warsong orcs different model skin.
  
  
• How did Cairne know about Oracle? Was he always talking about Medivh? Or something else.

 

[Rahko]

• In Roc UD campaign. When we attack high elves we get access to crypt fiends.
  They just walk in. Change it to something: "Let's make use of our new allies from Northrend".

• Make Sylvanas turn into Drow Ranger, not Banshee.

• In Blackrock & Roll, Too! mission we get access to Frost Wyrms.
  Would be nice if Blizz could change it to something liek: we find some dragon boneyard on the map (blackrock orc's killed them) and then Arthas decides to "revive" them.

• I didn't like mounted Arthas in UD campaign.Paladin with frostmourne was the best. Would be nice if they could just reskin him a bit.

• Give warsong orcs different model skin.
  
  
• How did Cairne know about Oracle? Was he always talking about Medivh? Or something else.

Good points. These are exactly the kind of changes I think they are doing. Also about that Sylvanas thing, I heard or read somewhere someone saying that Arthas actually raised her as a banshee, but then later she went back to her body and "used Possession" to get her own body back, but I'm not sure about the source, like how canonical this is. However, if is this is the case, it actually makes a lot of sense and I always wondered why they suddenly changed her model. Maybe this could be shown in-game in some little cutscene.

 

[deepstrasz]

Orc skin color: There is one red-skinned orc in Strahnbrad, which questionable, but not necessarily lore-breaking, I guess.

Yeah... or it might've been intended as an Easter egg.

Muradin: In Warcraft 3 it is shown that the ice shard in which the Frostmourne was sealed in, kills Muradin, but this whole scene was later changed and Muradin doesn’t actually die. Also, this doesn't technically have to show in WC3 in any way, therefor the actual retcon only happens in WotLK

I hope so.

Dreadlords’ deaths: Not technically a retcon, but in Warcraft 3 it is implied that Mal’Ganis and Balnazzar are killed, when this is later shown not to be the case

Detheroc too. At least this one didn't appear afterwards(?).

Illidan’s Blindfold:

Hopefully on (even in TfT) and his glaives grayish and with the panda face on the hand guard.

Skull of Gul’dan: Illidan is seen to destroy the Skull of Gul’dan upon absorbing its powers, but it is later seen that it’s not actually destroyed and Illidan takes it with him

He consumed it indeed and even mentioned it. Not to mention, that the skull was huge as a shrine and it had fire coming out of it whilst in Warcraft II it was a normal sized and looking skull (enchanted though of course).

Suramar & Tomb of Sargeras: The Suramar and ToS tilesets should resemble Suramar from WoW, rather than the Sunken Ruins in Warcraft 3

So, why are you not also defending WcIII on this one? Just curios.

Gul’dan’s servants: In Warcraft 3 Gul’dan is shown to have shamans with him, even though during the Second War, Horde didn’t have shamans, but warlocks

Yeah, that was weird. I think those were supposed to go with Zuluhed the Whacked to take his skull out of there(?) (out of Warcraft I-III material, of course).
Also, why would Maiev know how to read orcish runes and why would Gul'dan log his journey like that? I don't think he intended to warn anybody to stay out of there because he was pretty confident he would take Sargeras' power from there. The runes should have been written when he realized he would not get out alive but then that could have been too late for him to do it (especially when they were all spread out like that in various parts of the tomb) and the demons could have just erased them.

Blood Elves: Not necessarily a retcon either, but in Warcraft 3 it is implied that only the high elves following Kael’thas are called blood elves, when it is later shown that in fact mostly all (with the exception of a few individuals) high elves changed their name

In Warcraft III, the only high elves to survive were those with Kael.

Akama and other draenei: Only retconned thing that I really noticed, was their model. Also, Illidan might raise his eyebrow a bit, because of the similarities between draenei and Kil'jaeden

Yeah. Also, the Draenei were never the eredar in Warcraft II and the orcs made a total genocide of them. Plus, the name of the planet, it's Draenor so Draenei being from another planet while the orcs call the planet the same, is weird as if the orcs came after the Draenei.

Rend & Maim: According to events in WoW there is no way they could be in Outland during the events of Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne, let alone be killed by Illidan and Kael’Thas

Spoiler: Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans SPOILER

Yeah and they were the assassins of Thrall's family according to Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans. Thrall killed them with an unholy spell from a scroll when he came back to kill his enslaver. Rend and Maim made a pact with Aedelas Blackmoore.

Chen Stormstout: In Warcraft 3 Chen says he’s from Pandaria, but in WoW Mists of Pandaria Chen says he is in fact from Wandering Isle, and hasn’t ever set foot on Pandaria before the WoW Expansion

He doesn't say he's from Pandaria but that he's a brewmaster of Pandaria and also has the quote: "For Pandaria!"

This is a very powerful one line, if you ask me. It immediately shows how Arthas could do what he did and why people followed him.

It's only logical. I really don't see it being necessary. Of course, Arthas is their prince and royalty was important in the Middle Ages.

It also shows why Arthas is obsessed with killing Mal'Ganis, because he in return loved his people.

Exactly. That's why he did go to Northrend because he wanted vengeance so bad for what his people had to endure and what Arthas had to go through in Stratholme.

If they keep adding things like this - just a few lines here and there - I'm all for it. And I don't think they'll do anything to "ruin the WC3's story", as many seem to be so afraid of.

I would also appreciate if they didn't add obvious things like you've just mentioned. They should concentrate on why Uther and Jaina left Arthas and didn't resort to do anything at all especially when Uther said: "There has to be another way!".

I was talking about the trolls in the second mission of Human campaign and in the Undead campaign mission where there are several orc clans to destroy, so Kel'thuzad can use the Demon Gate.

I think it's for gameplay reasons. It's weird though since there are Ogres but they couldn't change the Troll models to Forest ones!?

Make Sylvanas turn into Drow Ranger, not Banshee.

About that. I had a theory long before Battle for Azeroth about Sylvanas only looking as if she had a body while actually still being a Banshee. Well, of course. It depends on how they want to connect RoC to TfT and WoW that matters.

In Roc UD campaign. When we attack high elves we get access to crypt fiends.
They just walk in. Change it to something: "Let's make use of our new allies from Northrend".

Yeah, especially when there are no Nerubians in Azeroth (continent). Either they were teleported via Acolyte summoning techniques, brought by Sky Barges/Ships or they dug a way from Northrend to Azeroth under the ocean depths

In Blackrock & Roll, Too! mission we get access to Frost Wyrms.
Would be nice if Blizz could change it to something liek: we find some dragon boneyard on the map (blackrock orc's killed them) and then Arthas decides to "revive" them.

We only see Arthas raising Frost Wyrms (Sapphiroth) once. Maybe those flew in from Northrend? (from the south->as in the map; maybe they circled around enemy lines). Arthas wasn't that strong yet to do it? Maybe, Kel'thuzad could/should?

I didn't like mounted Arthas in UD campaign.Paladin with frostmourne was the best. Would be nice if they could just reskin him a bit.

Horses are iconic to Death Knights (Warcraft II ). They'd also have to reduce the movements speed if they take the horse down. Anyways, Christie Golden said she'll make it known how Arthas gets his horse so expect that in Reforged.

How did Cairne know about Oracle? Was he always talking about Medivh? Or something else.

It's possible that Medivh contacted him through dreams like he did with Thrall or through magical means.

Also about that Sylvanas thing, I heard or read somewhere someone saying that Arthas actually raised her as a banshee, but then later she went back to her body and "used Possession" to get her own body back, but I'm not sure about the source, like how canonical this is. However, if is this is the case, it actually makes a lot of sense and I always wondered why they suddenly changed her model. Maybe this could be shown in-game in some little cutscene.

I think the story was about possessing another elf's body. Imagine that taking back her own body would have meant the corpse being mostly a skeleton by that time(?).

 

[Triceron]

Blackrock Orcs are pledged to demons and are red skinned. Could have split off from the main Blackrock force, but Rends Dark horde was balck skinned and did not follow demons. Rend and Maim should also be heading to Blackrock Spire.

Draenei have a connection to Eredar. Akama should know who Kiljaeden is.

Ner'zhul uses Obsidian Statues and Destroyers. These originate from Silithus and Uldum in WoW and are not present in Northrend. They are also agents of the Old Gods. I want an explanation even if not in game.

Dalaran is headed by the council of six which didnt exist in War3

The dragon aspects and their specific dragonflight powers did not formally exist yet. Bronze dragons breathe lightning, blue dragons breathe frost. Should this be mentioned or changed?

Blood Elves should have blue eyes during the campaign, green eyes after reaching Outland.

Vault of the Wardens is now in Aszuna - is this meant to be?

Scarlet Crusade or Argent Dawn references?

Nerubians not being part of the forsaken. Not a deal breaker but something that bugs me (hur hur)

Ner'zhul having human armor... He was an Orc Shaman.... Ah well, no one really cares about this one.

 

[Rahko]

So, why are you not also defending WcIII on this one? Just curios.

What do you mean 'defend WC3'?

Yeah, that was weird. I think those were supposed to go with Zuluhed the Whacked to take his skull out of there(?) (out of Warcraft I-III material, of course).
Also, why would Maiev know how to read orcish runes and why would Gul'dan log his journey like that? I don't think he intended to warn anybody to stay out of there because he was pretty confident he would take Sargeras' power from there. The runes should have been written when he realized he would not get out alive but then that could have been too late for him to do it (especially when they were all spread out like that in various parts of the tomb) and the demons could have just erased them.

Yeah, that whole scene is indeed a bit confusing.

In Warcraft III, the only high elves to survive were those with Kael.

Well, that's kinda the point of my post: it was retconned, that they didn't all die.

Yeah. Also, the Draenei were never the eredar in Warcraft II and the orcs made a total genocide of them. Plus, the name of the planet, it's Draenor so Draenei being from another planet while the orcs call the planet the same, is weird as if the orcs came after the Draenei.

I believe the draenei named the planet Draenor. Orcs didn't have a name for it, or it was called just "World" like we call our planet just Earth.

Ner'zhul uses Obsidian Statues and Destroyers. These originate from Silithus and Uldum in WoW and are not present in Northrend. They are also agents of the Old Gods. I want an explanation even if not in game.

This is very interesting, I never enough thought of that.

Ner'zhul having human armor... He was an Orc Shaman.... Ah well, no one really cares about this one.

Is it said somewhere that they are explicitly made for Ner'zhul himself? I mean, if Kil'jaeden always had the plan to lure Arthas to the Lich King, it would be only logical to place Ner'zhul's shredded soul into armor pieces that fit Arthas.

 

[deepstrasz]

What do you mean 'defend WC3'?

Sorry. I meant that you disagree with some things but agree with others which is weird if you consider it but I too have less problems with them making places look like WoW than changing units/characters to fit WoW. However, I hope they don't make things too unrecognizable for Warcraft III players in what zones are concerned.

I believe the draenei named the planet Draenor. Orcs didn't have a name for it, or it was called just "World" like we call our planet just Earth.

In the Warcraft II manual it is specifically called Draenor by the orcs but it is not mentioned why. See my post here too.

Draenei have a connection to Eredar. Akama should know who Kiljaeden is.

If Akama was living since Velen's time. Also, the Draenei as the Eredar came in TBC. I don't think they had the idea from before, especially since TfT.

Ner'zhul uses Obsidian Statues and Destroyers. These originate from Silithus and Uldum in WoW and are not present in Northrend. They are also agents of the Old Gods. I want an explanation even if not in game.

It's funny how now Warcraft III has to explain all that WoW failed to...

Dalaran is headed by the council of six which didnt exist in War3

Honestly, something like that was not mentioned so it might not necessarily be that much of a retcon. However, there were only three archmagi including Antonidas in Dalaran when Arthas attacked it. There were some others in the level that follows (Under the Burning Sky). However the Warcraft III manual says:

Spoiler

"However, the beautiful, yet shy young woman was also the star pupil of the Kirin Tor – the Wizard Council of Dalaran."
----
"Most notable of them was the Archmage, Kel’Thuzad, of the magical nation of Dalaran. Kel’Thuzad, one of senior members of the Kirin Tor – Dalaran’s ruling council – had been considered a maverick for years due to his insistence on studying the forbidden arts of necromancy."
----
"Antonidas is the head of the Kirin Tor, the conclave of wizards that rules over the magical kingdom of Dalaran."

The dragon aspects and their specific dragonflight powers did not formally exist yet. Bronze dragons breathe lightning, blue dragons breathe frost. Should this be mentioned or changed?

What didn't exist back then was the dragons turning into/hiding as humans (meh anyway).
This is what the Warcraft III manual says about the dragonflights (which were not a thing back in Warcraft II):
"Nekros maintained his hold over the Dragonqueen, Alexstrasza, and her red dragonflight by use of a powerful artifact known as the Demon Soul."
----
"The dragons, led by the great, red leviathan, Alexstrasza, agreed to send their mighty flights to engage the demons and their infernal masters."
----
"The blue Dragonflight, ruled by Malygos, the lord of magic, was all but devastated by the evil Deathwing and his black Dragonflight. Though there are few great blue dragons left in the world, their magical powers are awesome to behold. Native to Northrend, the few blues stay relatively close to the great Dragonblight, where they commune with the ancient dragon spirits who died in ages past. Their freezing breath and gargantuan claws have been the death of many hapless travelers in Northrend."
----
"The red Dragonflight, ruled by the Dragonqueen, Alexstrasza, is a noble and honorable group of creatures. They consider themselves the protectors of all life, and in many ways they are. More often than not, they are found protecting sacred areas and items, seeking to keep them from lesser beings who might be hurt by their energies. Their breath is a fearsome stream of fire, and they have been known to swallow enemies whole and slowly digest them over the course of a day. Their most hated enemies are the black dragons ruled by the great, dark leviathan, Deathwing."
----
"Though the black Dragonflight was nearly annihilated in ages past, a few of the evil creatures have made their homes in the dry, desolate wastes of the Barrens. With their lord, Deathwing, either missing or dead, the black dragons seek to appease only themselves. The creatures are immensely powerful and cruel and revel in mortal suffering. The black dragons are the enemies of every other Dragonflight, especially the great red dragons of Lordaeron."
----
"The enchanted, ethereal green dragons live only to serve the forces of nature and uphold the balance between mortal creatures and the ever-evolving world. The green Dragonflight, ruled by the dreaming goddess, Ysera, holds a special love for the night elves and their druids. Though most green dragons live within the mystical dimension known as the Emerald Dream, a few of the graceful creatures still roam the shadowy paths of Ashenvale forest."
----
"Alexstrasza the red, Ysera the green, and Nozdormu the bronze descended upon the druids’ tranquil glades and surveyed the fruits of the night elves’ labors."
----
"Alexstrasza, the Life-Giver, placed a single, enchanted acorn within the heart of the Well of Eternity. The acorn, activated by the potent, magical waters, sprung to life as a colossal tree."
----
"Nozdormu, the Timeless, placed an enchantment upon the World Tree that ensured that as long as the colossal tree stood, the night elves would never age or fall prey to sickness or disease."
----
"Ysera, the Dreamer, also placed an enchantment upon the World Tree by linking it to her own realm, the ethereal dimension known as the Emerald Dream."
----
"Alexstrasza the Life-Binder, Malygos the Spell-Weaver, Ysera the Dreamer, Nozdormu the Timeless, and Neltharion the Earth-Warder were all empowered by the Titans’ vast powers and charged with the world’s defense."
----
Weirdly enough, no rubric about the bronze dragons.

Scarlet Crusade or Argent Dawn references?

Yeah, they should say something about this but hopefully nothing about Balnazzar faking his death... (Detheroc included).

Nerubians not being part of the forsaken. Not a deal breaker but something that bugs me

Gameplay reasons I guess (preparing for multiplayer) but yeah, it's a bit weird especially when you think about Fiends as constant reinforcements. Maybe, giant undead spiders instead ?

Ner'zhul having human armor... He was an Orc Shaman.... Ah well, no one really cares about this one.

How do you know it's human armour? It's only part of an armour. It's indeed for a humanoid, but human?
I guess the armour was needed to keep Ner'zhul's soul as a spectre otherwise, he might not have been so powerful and/or so conscious? So, it must be Kil'jaeden who had something to do with the armour. I have no idea of its origin but it most probably might be demonic. About the sword, well, I don't know why would they give him a sword since he was not supposed to get out of the ice prison. So, the sword might not actually be from the demons but native to Northrend or at least there before Ner'zhul was cast to the continent from the Twisting Nether.

if Kil'jaeden always had the plan to lure Arthas to the Lich King, it would be only logical to place Ner'zhul's shredded soul into armor pieces that fit Arthas.

That was Ner'zhul's plan of getting out of there. Being Kil'jaeden's plan doesn't make sense. The demon wanted to use the orc as a pawn hence why he locked him there to do his bidding. He punished him for breaking the pact he made with him and his orcs before the Second Great War.

 

[Rahko]

Sorry. I meant that you disagree with some things but agree with others which is weird if you consider it but I too have less problems with them making places look like WoW than changing units/characters to fit WoW. However, I hope they don't make things too unrecognizable for Warcraft III players in what zones are concerned.

To what I disagree or agree? I thought I just stated things that have been later changed since Warcraft 3.

 

[Triceron]

Well, WoW is a massive retcon mess in itself.

I prefer the loose and ill explained canon of War3 because it allows imagination to fill blanks. Things like Vashj havung served under Illidan doesnt need to be explained, simply implied in their meeting. Now we have a full explanation of War of the Ancients omitting their connection making a mess out of all these small details in WC3.