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Ukraine Conflict

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Aeroblyctos, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. Aeroblyctos

    Aeroblyctos

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    Hey,

    So what do you think about Ukraine conflict?

    [​IMG]


    EDIT: And mod edit that title it has a grammar error.
     
  2. Rui

    Rui

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    Good thread for World News forum. =P

    Their president is really turning into a dictator. Nevertheless, I never got why they'd want to join the European Union or whatever it was they were aiming to get into. Europe has little or nothing to offer to them.

    Anyway, I am mostly ignorant about Economy-related matters, I'm just talking from a common person's perspective.
     
  3. Zombie

    Zombie

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    Ukraine

    I guess everyone has been more or less following the Euromaidan in Ukraine. Long story short, the pro-Russian president of Ukraine, Yanukovych and his government stepped down due to almost triggering a civil war and international pressure, and left the country.

    What was foreseeable is that the country's government destabilized. What was less foreseeable is that the Russians used the opportunity to militarize the Crimea and demilitarize the Ukrainian law enforcement forces there, essentially assuming direct control of the area. All that for the "protection of ethnic Russian citizens in the region."

    All that looks pretty much like the beginning of World War 2, when Germany invaded Danzig, Poland and Czechoslovakia to protect the interests of local German minorities.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/ukraine-warns-russia-crimea-war-live
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140301
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/03/russia-and-ukraine
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...oop-entry-means-war-after-putin-approval.html


    We've heard threats from both sides.
    We've seen troops mobilizing from both sides.

    There's a shitload of gas and the control over Europe's gas supply at stake too, let's not forget that.

    The question is, what's going to happen next? Are we on the brink of another huge-scale war?
     
  4. gorillabull

    gorillabull

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    putin's plan of world domination is going relatively well i see
     
  5. Aeroblyctos

    Aeroblyctos

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    If what I say now is true I actually understand Putin.

    I heard that when the new government took control over the old one there was set some big laws. One being that the Russian language wouldn't anymore be another official language of Ukraine. The nation has 17% Russian speaking people which is a huge minority. For example, in Finland we have two official languages even if we have only 5,4% Swedish people.

    It, of course, gave a strong signal to Russian that the new government is far away from the old one. I'm not surprised that then Russian started suspect the new government. As Russian have stated, their doctrine is to protect Russian citizens just like United States have stated the same, except their doctrine also includes companies.
     
  6. Solu9

    Solu9

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    Well Russia has still compromised Ukraine's sovereignty. Whatever goes on in Ukraine, Russia has no right to mobilize troops in another country.
    Ukraine might have Russian speaking people, but they are still a part of Ukraine.
    Furthermore. The Russian speaking people in Ukraine have nothing to fear whatsoever, which just adds to the illegalities Russia are guilty of.

    Pardon my language, but Russia needs to get the f... out of Ukraine.

    Edit:
    I should rephrase. Obviously if Ukraine was guilty of crimes against humanity it would be another case. But as we all know, nothing of the sort has, or are going to, happen.
     
  7. Mechanical Man

    Mechanical Man

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    The origin of the problem is that Hruščev (and Lenin before) gave Crimea and the east to Ukraine for some unknown reason, while mostly Russians lived there. But in fifties little mattered, because it was all one country. Is quite easy to identify russian cities in Ukraine, mostly of the having greek names, like Sevastopol, Simferopol, Odessa, ...
     
  8. Rui

    Rui

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    My post in the other thread, by Aeroblyctos, covering this subject.

    EDIT: Feel free to enlighten me on the subject. I know nothing of History.
     
  9. Arcisal

    Arcisal

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    Honest opinion: I'd doubt the situation would go anywhere near a war, or at to the scale of WWII. Maybe a conflict comparable to the Russo-Georgian War (South Ossetia and all). But neither parties, or any for that matter, would want another large scale war.

    I'm calling it now: Crimea to be annexed and most of Eastern Ukraine where there are many ethnic Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians will go along with it as well. Yanukovych to return and reinstated as President by the Kremlin.
     
  10. Radicool

    Radicool

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    I remember somebody telling me a story about the trenches in World War 1 on Christmas. Doubt it was true but the message still applies:


    Shots were firing from both sides. Explosives plummeted on No Man's Land. Men were screaming in agony as blood gushed from their decapitated limbs. The smell of trench foot rotting among puddles of mud and water and swarms of flies bred in corpses. It all suddenly stopped. There was a brief moment of silence...

    The sun rose and marked a new day. It was Christmas. A captain from either side entered a land no man had ever walked upon to shake hands on an agreement. It was settled that that day would be the day to bury the dead. The hours passed as some land was cleared. All the men quietly walked back to the pits in which they came as two soldiers nodded in their last seconds of peace and closed their eyes as they awaited the inevitable.

    "BANG"! The sound crackled, piercing the ears of many, as the river of blood flowed once again. It all began anew...


    In the end, a war is something that none of us want. These people have nothing against each other, but fought never the less. War is something dictated to us to do by a government to do, or perhaps the banks (we won't go into that now). Who wants to fight again? In an age of grand communication, I'm sure the people have enough of a voice to stop two children (prime ministers) declaring war against each other for something that should not be. We have the power of choice in these matters. What will we decide upon?
     
  11. Nuclear

    Nuclear

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    I've always thought that the more democratic a country is, the less likely it is to wage war. For example, Russia is doing this because Putin and his band of thugs lead the country, and USA wages war overseas because corporations are in charge. Nobody really wants war, if people are in charge, there won't be war.
     
  12. taavidude

    taavidude

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    Putin is just greed. He would gladly take countries over that were before Russia like:
    Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, but as long as America exists Russia wont have a chance and also Russia has become stupid if he keeps going on like that then hes soon gonna end like North-Korea, because North-Korea has only one ally left and probably that will happen to Russia too if Putin wont stop f**king around.
    Even crazier thing was that like 2 weeks ago or so russian planes flew into Estonian territory and when Lithuanian Jets went against those russian planes then those russian planes went back into their own territory so these russian bastards are very weird.
     
  13. Zombie

    Zombie

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sEqzEgDZ0g

    On a more serious note, you could call the new Ukrainian government one that is fairly "democratic", given the fact that it is a result of the people's choice to spring a revolution. Yet they are the ones who openly threaten Russia with a war.

    No, they don't. The best (and most recent) example of that is Ukraine's government under Yanukovych. He was rightfully elected too, and no matter how much 'communication' was going on, he was only moved from his seat after blood was shed.

    The everyday people only have the voice to elect their rulers. Similarly to how they elected Yanukovych, Putin and hey, even Adolf Hitler. They however, will never have enough voice to make their decisions or to prevent wars and bloodshed as long as policemen/soldiers follow their oath.

    Yeah, it's lucky America exists! America #1 Peacekeeper of the world!

    On a more serious note though, Russia will never isolate itself form world politics and economy as long as it's the country to supply most of Europe with gas. If they don't attack an EU country directly (which they won't), the Western world will not give a shit, similarly to when they didn't give a shit when Georgia, Afghanistan, Hungary or Czechoslovakia were ravaged by the Russians/USSR.

    I think that would be the most solid solution as well, assuming it goes without bloodshed. Self-determination ftw.
     
  14. Krolan

    Krolan

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    Well I have no choice...

    I'm ukranian, born in Odessa (southern Ukraine, where most people speak russian, as opposed to northern Ukraine, that tends to stick to the Motherlanguage). It was southern Ukraine that wanted be part of EU but it was Russia who would "not allow it" and sabotaged this wish with threats, so EU wouldn't make them part of itself. Seems Russia forgot what 1989 happened.

    Ukranian People wanted to be part of the EU to be able to travel there freely, finding jobs and stuff. Why?

    When you come down to it, the avarage Ukranian mate earns 500 "grewin" a month. Which is 50€ or about 70$
    So one of the best payed Jobs, professeur, pays 2000-3000 grewin, 200-300€, 280-400$. In addition to that, while food and other necessities are equalized to the avarage pay, as well as cigarettes (paying for a pack about 50 american cents, 40 european cents), almost everything else, like Hardware, clothing that doesnt look like shit, even the rent, is to be payed with the same prices as one would expect here in Europe, Germany to be exact.

    Practically speaking, a mother that wants her child to have "this really cool jacket" has to live a month out of tea and cigarettes, so she can buy it (assuming avarage pay). The people there had it hard. HARD in the last decades. But they moved on, did nothing all too wrong. Now half the world knows Ukraine for the fashist idiot that was/is in charge (not up to date here)

    When I come back to Odessa I'll try and ask what they say and think about this stuff, and no matter what the media says, I'm sure the actual people are as unaffected as ever, as long as nothing happens to them. Like Everywhere.

    I'll stop for now. Get enraged with that topic. Oh well^^
     
  15. gorillabull

    gorillabull

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    well joining the eu wouldnt make people earn more money automatically but it certainly is better than living in a country where the leaders are still communists by heart
     
  16. Zombie

    Zombie

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    Surely bending over to a foreign power (in this case, Russia) is a bad idea, but with the EU, they'd be pretty much doing the same. The EU is no less of an abusive power-monger as Russia is, the only difference is that they're trying to invest as much as they can into communicating that they're not.

    I can only bring my own country as an example. Since we joined, just to mention a few:

    • Our agricultural industry's potential fell about 80%, seeing how the EU refused to buy our products. It wasn't because our quality or potential was any worse than that of France, Germany or hey, Argentina, but since they had to support the Western countries' agricultural and export interests. Just an example: During our time with the EU, we closed down 7 of our 8 sugar factories.

    • (Fault of the NATO as well) Our military went to hell: we were forced to downgrade our infantry, cancel conscription, sell most of our tanks to countries of NATO interest and exchange our air flotilla to 1/10 of its previous size due to having to buy Western aircraft.

    • Mass emigration. Pretty much every single youth member who can leaves our country. Sure it might benefit their individual interest, but as a collective, loosing most of the youth and supporting pensions from nil production is going to cut whatever we've left of our output to zero.

    • Destruction of national culture. Since we became EU members, pretty much everything related to preserving our own culture, traditions and religion has been labeled as being "far-rightist" or being an "antisemite" and we've been constantly blackmailed to cease pursuing our national(ist) interest if we don't want to loose our financial potential (which too is in the EU's hold, due to our debt).

    • The EU further supports my country's mentality to constantly expect help from others instead of acting on their own. Our rot on a long term is guaranteed if everyone refuses to act on their interest, not as an individual, but as a collective.

    So Ukraine (with a potential pretty much similar to my country) cannot expect much from the EU. Probably even less than from Russia. All this bloodshed to willingly go into yet another slavery whilst just having escaped one is just so ridiculous...
     
  17. Krolan

    Krolan

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    Well, You'd understand that these are hopes. Hopes that somewhere else it's better. It may be ridiculous but for me it's mostly sad.
     
  18. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    To be honest, I don't think russia has any serious interest in crimea or the ukraine in general.
    They are just playing the game, as they always do. The game of diplomacy. As soon as you threat a country, you can expect the western world to chime in and offer things in return for peace.
    They're basicly just taking a defenseless hostage to press money out of the western world, like they always do.
     
  19. Zombie

    Zombie

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    Obviously you have no idea how the stock market works.
     
  20. Rui

    Rui

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    By Western you mean France and Germany? Because Portugal is as far west as you can get and, from what I heard, it too was forced to shut down weaponry production and industry in general; also, farmers were literally payed to let crops die out. Weapon production went to Germany and I presume so did agriculture.



    I'm actually happy that FORCED military duty was canceled.


    Same problem with Portugal. Just yesterday I watched on television a news report about 50 nurses leaving from Porto to England.
    The large majority of the population is old and retired. Since the recent austerity measures have blown the lot of employment, the youth that could be producing something isn't.