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Ukraine Conflict

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Aeroblyctos, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. Arcisal

    Arcisal

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    They have the power to take Crimea and the rest of Ukraine along with it if they wanted to by force.

    Ukraine was known to have the third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in 1991 before they handed it all over to Russia in return for integrity of their borders from them and the US. Russia marching into Crimea will force the hand of America which may eventually lead to bloodshed.

    Sevastopol, located in Crimea, is where the Russian Black Fleet is situated. Currently, Russia has a lease for the port until 2042, but this is just one reason why they might want Crimea.

    Might I ask what country that it? Not to be condescending. Just curious. I can't respond to each of your argument against joining the EU, so I'll just pitch in some of my pro-EU reasons.

    • Since Yanukovych's administration, the quality of like in Ukraine has deteriorated. Wages have fallen while prices, crime and unemployment have risen. Levels of freedom are barely non-existent. Joining the EU would either trial him for his crimes (corruption and whatnot) or at the very least get rid of him.
    • In 2013, Ukraine was issued the lowest possible credit rating that could be possibly published by Moody and S&P. This means that they can't just issue bonds to get loans like the US does. At the same time, Ukraine also had a severe budget shortfall of about $15 billion. So that means that the Ukrainian government actually had to come up with the cash, instead of just loaning it. They negotiated with two entities: the IMF (via the EU) and Russia. In November 2013, Yanukovych cancelled negotiations with the IMF and decided to deal solely with Russia. How does joining the EU involve this? Well, it cancels the deal with Russia and restarts negotiations with the IMF. Dealing $15 billion with Russia was seen as a bad decision because Putin was known to have long-term "pay back" consequences. It was very much like slowly selling off your country piece by piece to Russia. Whatever the IMF restructuring imposed on the Ukraine will (hopefully) benefit the people and fix the country's economy.

    That's all I've got. Will update when I can think or look for more.
     
  2. Zombie

    Zombie

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    Yes, I mean France and Germany (as well as other dominant countries of that region), as indicated in my post. It's exactly my point that these countries (and their American/Israeli [American as in USA, Argentina, Brazil] market partners) essentially use newer EU members (Spain, Portugal, Eastern Europe) as their outlets.



    You might be, but it definitely decreases a country's military potential. It also helps men build a manly character more so than anything, which would be needed for an ever increasing portion of our generation of geeks, whiners and metrosexuals.


    Indeed. Another example why the EU is bad for you.

    Hungary.

    Well, we were in a similar situation back in the end of the '80s and in the end of the '90s, except that we managed to get a loan from the IMF after a few negotiations.

    The consequences were that we were not able to start up our economy in a manner we hoped to, since the IMF (and the EU) pretty much told us what we can and cannot invest into. The result of that was that our economy repeatedly went to hell every 5 years, forcing us to take up further loans. Since we eventually got to the point that we couldn't even pay interest, they started up a deficit policy against us, essentially meaning that the IMF and the EU assumed an unwritten full control of our economic policy making.

    That was what resulted in the breakdown of our economy I mentioned in my previous post. Our debt-slavery lasted until the end of 2013, where, after a brutal wave of populace taxation and nationalization, our government prepaid our loan to the IMF. This marks the end of the IMF's dictatorship over us, but the time until which we'll be able to recover will take decades.

    In summary, the last 20 years under which we could develop our country to an EU conform level, we spent downgrading our economy to post WW2 level. Why? Because they told us to. Because they could. Because they were the ones to lend us money, thus they felt the right that they could do this to us. They did all the necessary steps to prevent us from being their concurrency.

    Russia might be no better than the IMF, I honestly have no idea what loan construction they offered, but my point was simply that what Ukraine expects from the West, why this whole civil war thing went on, is actually a cause not in any way reasonable, it is solely guided by a false, self-generated optimism of people who do not understand that their country's future is their own interest: They can expect no help from foreign powers.
     
  3. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    ...aaand that's where I stopped reading.
     
  4. Aeroblyctos

    Aeroblyctos

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    You don't wanna be a man? Like He-Man.
     
  5. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    By the power of greyskull, you dropped dat soap!
     
  6. Nuclear

    Nuclear

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    My IQ lowered by 5 when I read that.
     
  7. Rui

    Rui

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    Be more specific, please:cexc:
     
  8. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    What specification is needed? That the writer of that post actually believes that army service will make you more manly or his belief that a strong force is the most important thing for a nation that is highly in dept?
     
  9. Nuclear

    Nuclear

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    It's idiotic and sexist, there's the elaboration.
     
  10. Zombie

    Zombie

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    Army service teaches, or is supposed to teach, a very important characteristic that is missing from most men these days, that's being able to stand up for yourself and whom you consider valuable in your life. If they teach you how to fight, how to be tough and how to do what you do with pride, you have less of a chance to be stomped into the ground in your private life as well.

    Who the fuck said it was the most important thing for a nation in debt? Especially to a degree that you had to highlight it? Get a hold of yourself and get your facts right before you reply to a post.

    I said that obviously, having a small military makes you depend on other countries' forces, who might abuse this fact.

    My opinion might be subjective, you do not have to agree with it, but you should give it respect regardless by at least bothering to read the whole thing.

    The same applies to this bullshit.

    You have the right to disagree, but in that case do it properly. That's what Rui intended to say as well.
     
  11. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    How can submission teach you anything?
    I had to go to forced military service several years ago and I learned literally nothing. It was a mixture of boredom, stupidity and most important: a complete waste of time.
    And no, blindly obeying orders does not make you a better man. In fact, that's the recipe for something else.


    Forced military duty is a relic of the past, where globalisation wasn't as present as nowadays. And so are national armies.


    The only real thing that society misses about the forced military service here is that forced civil service was removed aswell (which was important). Guess what: if you work in a hospital, retirement home or kindergarden, chances are, it will teach you more about life than any army in the world could. You know, things like responsibility, decision-making, socializing with people of all race and gender and morality.


    Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying army service is a bad thing. I'm just failing to see how it makes you a better man.
     
  12. Zombie

    Zombie

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    I assume you're from Germany? It's a country (among many others), which wasn't exactly famous of conscription working too well. I heard dozens of tales that there it's all about playing with guns, sitting in a barracks and drinking booze.

    It is true that you can't work with an army that doesn't want to work and you can't really motivate people to learn if they refuse to study. If someone is conscripted and refuses to act like a soldier, it is highly likely that he will disregard other 'necessary' obligations in his later life as well.

    Conscription is a tool to shape people who might have useful, albeit less developed characteristics. It will never work on people who have a mentality I mentioned above, and it will never work on anyone if it's not an elaborate system, but the concept itself works and has been proven to work.
     
  13. Nuclear

    Nuclear

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    I call bullshit. Where are your sources and studies? Or are you just posting your own speculation as an armchair psychologist?
     
  14. GhostWolf

    GhostWolf

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    3 [forced] years in our army didn't really give me much. Either way, please go back to the topic instead of starting a flame war.
     
  15. TriggerHappy

    TriggerHappy

    Code Moderator

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    Learning to kill is not necessarily equal to learning how to fight. If anything, you should force people to learn martial arts instead of joining the army.

    Maybe I'm just terrified of my own countries army lol

    I couldn't agree more.
     
  16. Zombie

    Zombie

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    That's true, but in the army you also learn martial arts and other stuff that keeps you physically fit.

    About the German army part: I had about a dozen more or less known acquaintances who all told me a similar tale of their respective battalions. It might be that they all served in the one very battalion that spent their entire day drinking booze, but I find that highly unlikely.

    About conscription being effective: Attend a history class. Learn about Janissaries, the Red Army during the Second World War, the Wehrmacht or the IDF, just to mention a very few, notable examples. There always have been objectors and evaders, but each of these militaries were legendarily efficient.

    I don't assume you require me to dig up sources on stuff that's common knowledge.
     
  17. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    I still don't get why it makes you a better man?
     
  18. Zombie

    Zombie

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    It doesn't make you a 'better man' in the direct sense of you becoming more ethical or manly (although chicks do love soldiers).

    It does however:

    ...and...

     
  19. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    Social work does the same - to a much higher degrees. Plus it actually contributes something useful to the society.
    And growing older probably also does the same... or any kind regular work.

    I'm an engineer and had to deal with soldiers before, both in private and through my work. Some of them were nice people, but also, some of them were just a pain to work/deal with (and it certainly doesn't help that most soldiers have lower level education here). I didn't see any difference between soldiers and non-soldiers from a social perspective. Both people can be equally as dumb.
     
  20. Zombie

    Zombie

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    That's true, however social workers don't help much for your country's security nor ease its international dependence. Nor does it teach you how to be physically fit, basic martial arts, or a sense of duty.

    Surely, any of that can come by itself and I'm not saying conscription is the only thing which can help you learn that stuff, I'm just saying that a lot of people, especially from the age group of those currently ~18 year olds could use the knowledge. A lot of them refuses to lift their asses up from the couch unless they're forced to do so. That's a bad thing, no one can disagree with that.