Thoughts on the Mystic class Thread

[Jumbo]

So I thought we'd better gather all our opinions, thoughts and suggestions in a single thread. This is only for discussing the Mystic and its advanced classes.

I'll start out.

Having currently reached lvl 28 with a psion that is the the experience I base my thoughts on so far.

The Mystic and the Psion are very powerful at the moment.
They have incredible stunning & immobilizing capabilities. It is less bulky than the squire, but the self-shield makes up for it more or less.

- I suggest to nerf both Jolting Strikes & Twisting Metal.

Also

- the threat spell, Distracting Weapon, should, in my opinion, give a static bonus, instead of being based on stats.

-Bursting Touch is fine as it is, looks and works cool, same for Deadly Timber & Imbue Armor. I cannot speak much on Liquified Arms as I haven't tested it enough.


And now for the Psion. The hero is a cool combination of dps, off tanking and support. However, it is very overpowered at the moment.

- Levitation should have its evasion bonus reduced to 25% at least. 50% means that the Psion can absorb way too much damage without ever getting in danger. Also, on the technical side, it stops when minor golems spawn out of a large golem. Perhaps make the check for out of combat have a slightly longer gap (if possible).

- Mind Control is well done, but the max mana reduction doesn't seem to work as intended. I saw it reduce item +MP values by 50%, but not the hero's own MP pool.

- Cannot say anything about the ogre spell, as I have not tried it. Psionic blade seems good so far, but I haven't reached lvl 30 and actually used its extra ability, so this opinion is subject to change.



What are your thoughts? Especially if anyone played Hexblade, it would be a great help if you wrote about it here.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Jolting and Twisting Metal will receive a nerf in the (3) update... as soon as I could fix that desync bug.

The MP reduction thing is a bit troublesome to calculate, as the psionic blade and other abilities can basicly add mana again, which is why it only reduces MP from items. I think this is fine. The penalty is large enough as it is.

 

[Jumbo]

I see. And yes with high lvl mp items this will indeed make a huge difference.

EDIT: how about levitation though?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I'll reduce the evasion bonus down to 30%. I agree that when combined with +evasion items and agility, the bonus might be a bit over-the-top.

 

[Jumbo]

Sounds great. Kamina had some objections to the Hexblade - namely the 10 seconds stun being too powerful. I personally haven't tried the class so have no personal opinion on it.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Sounds great. Kamina had some objections to the Hexblade - anmeldt the 10 seconds stun being too powerful. I personally haven't tried the class so have no personal opinion on it.

I think this is a matter of taste... it's channeled, so it prevents you from using your other channels at the same time. Also, it comes with extra durability for the target and doesn't work on bosses.
But yeah, it's probably the strongest CC in the game.

 

[Jumbo]

Kamina and I think that the new jolted, while better, could benefit from a change: Every strike immobilizes but decreasingly so. first strike 3 sec, 2nd 2 sec, 3 & +3 1 second. What do you think?

 

[Jumbo]

Testing for Psionic Blade spell steal:
Sweeping blades doesn't work when taken with psionic blade. Says "cannot be used in combat" when trying to use it.

Bard songs require instrument, also making them unusuable.

more testing coming up.

EDIT1:
Taunt --> heroic strike.. hmmm.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Kamina and I think that the new jolted, while better, could benefit from a change: Every strike immobilizes but decreasingly so. first strike 3 sec, 2nd 2 sec, 3 & +3 1 second. What do you think?

Let's not make it too convoluted in design...
Immobilize is strong as it works on bosses. So I think limiting it to a one-shot is fair.

Testing for Psionic Blade spell steal:
Sweeping blades doesn't work when taken with psionic blade. Says "cannot be used in combat" when trying to use it.

Bard songs require instrument, also making them unusuable.

more testing coming up.

EDIT1:
Taunt --> heroic strike.. hmmm.

After all the manual editing, I figured there will be some bugs here and there.
I thought I excluded bard songs from the system... weird. Ah well, collecting all the issues in a list might be good, so I can fix them all in one go.

 

[ALEXz407]

Let's not make it too convoluted in design...
Immobilize is strong as it works on bosses. So I think limiting it to a one-shot is fair.

Maybe remake Jolting Strikes debuff to be stackable speed reduce? Each hit will increase stacks and refresh duration. It would look like:
1 hit: -30% run speed (-15% on bosses), lasts 3 sec.
2 hits: -60% run speed (-30% on bosses), lasts 3 sec.
3 and more hits: -90% run speed (-45% on bosses), lasts 3 sec.
So 4 Mystics with good timing can maintain 100% uptime for this debuff, but boss will still chase the target with lower speed, making easier to kite it (and when you kite, you can not maintain aggro, so it will be good tradeoff).

About Twisting Metal - it would be nice to write about reduced stun duration on bosses in ability tooltip, just for convenience.
And after channeling Twisting Metal character doesn't continue attacking target, just staying idle until get hit or receive attack order - it works as intended?

Bursting Touch looks good - nice AoE for low levels and it sinks mana very fast.

Can't say more yet, I have only lvl 8 Mystic.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Why would I balance the game for mono-battles with 4 of the same class? That makes little sense...
If we apply this logic, a group of 4 thiefs is pretty much as OP as a group of 4 mystics (4 times low-cooldown backstab, duh!)...

I challenge you guys to try to beat upcoming bosses with 4 of the same class. No really, I do.

 

[ALEXz407]

Why would I balance the game for mono-battles with 4 of the same class? That makes little sense...
If we apply this logic, a group of 4 thiefs is pretty much as OP as a group of 4 mystics (4 times low-cooldown backstab, duh!)...

I challenge you guys to try to beat upcoming bosses with 4 of the same class. No really, I do.

Yeah, seems legit.

Anyway I think some kind of tradeoff "hit faster and immobilize target faster with low debuff duration / hit with delay to make debuff longer" can fit this class.
When other classes have "push a button => get an effect" spells, Mystics, I guess, are more based on channeling and delayed effect spells.
Maybe 40%/70%/100% (20%/35%/50% for bosses) run speed reduction and 4 sec duration after debuff refresh?

Even Bursting Touch can be redesigned to fit this approach: apply debuff on target for some seconds and make shrapnel bursts when Mystic hits target.
Or it could apply timed debuff with some charges and any white attack will reduce debuff count and do some damage (lower with each hit, based on debuff caster's AP stat). Shrapnel direction is based on attacker's position.
Just some thoughts

 

[SHBlade]

Zwieb, hp bonus from psionic blade is too high, right now at lvl 41 with 15% hp talent and 70 stacks I have 780 hp xD
I think u should reduce hp bonus to 1-1.5 per stack

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Zwieb, hp bonus from psionic blade is too high, right now at lvl 41 with 15% hp talent and 70 stacks I have 780 hp xD
I think u should reduce hp bonus to 1-1.5 per stack

Yeah I think Psionic Blade could need a nerf to it's stat bonuses... I'll add it to my list.

 

[SHBlade]

2. Me and Kamina think that Mind Lash shouldn't bounce and it's mechanics should be changed to "next X (2?) enemy's attacks will cause 2xsp shadow dmg".

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

It only activates once before it bounces, it's fine as it is.

 

[Jumbo]

I suggest increasing the range of Bursting touch to fit the ranged attack of levitation Psion. The reason is that with this change, you can get into combat without first going almost melee, and THEN moving back to max range.

An alternative is to simply make it point targeted instead of unit. So you can fire it from whereever you stand and the "end" of the missile path will hit the enemy = getting you into combat.

In any case, as it is now it is annoying.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Jumbo, there's a talent to do this for Psion

 

[Jumbo]

=) Ty bro. Perhaps it should be chooseable at 35 though. I mean, its pretty nice to get as early as possible.

 

[Jumbo]

The level 50 Psion talent choices need to be remade. Having choices only based on ONE spell is not a good idea. Look at the druid for a better solution: 2 talents for pets, 1 for solo healing.

Talents should always leave you with a choice between this and that spell. If we HAVE to use a talent on a certain spell this means that this spell cannot be removed from our spellbook without penalizing the player = reduced freedom.
I suggest replacing the 'Enslave MP penalty removed' with a talent targeted at another/other ability/ies.

Perhaps something making the Psion stronger on its own (i.e. not considering pets). Examples (they are neither mutually exclusive nor the opposite - just ideas):
- Reducing cooldown of Bursting Touch (BT)
- Make BT slow all hit targets for a short time
- BT now fires a second time on a target right after it has been used.
- Levitation combat restrictions removed (i.e. it can be used permanently similarly to the zeals of crusader)
- 2nd strike of 'Jolting Strikes' now also immobilizes.
- 'Imbue Armor' now also acts as an immolation spell. Enemies close to the Psion will be burned for XxY Fire damage every second. (melee Psions need some love )

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Enslave is such a core class spell that I think there is no problem with that talent tier. After all, level 25 ranger is only about the pets aswell.

However, I like the imbue armor idea; though I think reflective damage would be cooler. Maybe I add it to the core spell, since it's kind of weak atm.

 

[Jumbo]

Hmm I disagree about Enslave. I noticed that some Psion players don't even like the spell. Ranger pet is different because it is a core ability on basic class + advanced classes (druid doesn't need it I know, but the talent bonuses are nice), is the focus of several hunter abilities, and its talents also provide bonuses to other druid abilities. The Psion also has a core ability already: Psionic Blade. Making another spell core is too much in my opinion.

I don't think Imbue Armor should have the immolation as standard. It should be talent based to give people a choice.
Perhaps actually make it into 2 talent choices:
- Imbue armor now reflects X amount of dmg
- Imbue armor now deals X amount of dmg as immolation to nearby enemies every second.

Finally, a class like the Psion should, in my opinion, be able to play solo without any pet in a viable fashion. We already have several pet based classes so we don't need to force the Psion into being another one.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Imbue armor is due a buff as it is, adding a bit of reflect could make it a bit more worthwhile as well, I wouldn't mind it as a standard change.

Liquify arms needs a bit of a change too. Or maybe it'll be more valuable in later content, as it goes now it seems to not last long enough to really bother using.

Also as Enslave is concerned.. It is rather weak at the moment. I think some Psions much prefer stealing a spam enemy target spell, like soul strike, and spamming that for DPS rather than enslaving something and having their mana halved. Same can be said for the healing side of this too, and just turning into a full on healer almost.

 

[Jumbo]

I thought about a change for Enslave.

At the moment, the spell is almost useless after a certain point. I propose to remove the 5 lvls requirement once the player reaches lvl 50. Not as a talent, but simply as a level based design.
Almost no one will use the spell if they are forced to use lowbie mobs at that point anyway.

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

The caster slaves will be good enough when the bug is fixed.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Okay I changed my mind :s. Enslave is actually rather good, though slightly concerned some monsters size can be too big and end up getting in the way of heals and other targets.

 

[Jumbo]

Yes I was exaggerating wildly on its 'uselessness' at high lvl. Its quite good, but I still think the 5 lvl req. will be a problem at lvl 50. If not remove the restrictions entirely, perhaps reduce it to 2 or 3 lvls req. at lvl 50.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

It definitely should have its level restriction removed. Make it of equal or lower leveled. I can't think of any situation in which a character being able to enslave a mob of its equal level would ever be significantly game changing in any way.

This would also free up a level 50 talent slot for a new talent that isn't enslave related. I think this should appease everyone. Lol

 

[Ethical]

Do the charges on psionic blade disappear after a certain amount of time or do they remain there until they are consumed?

 

[Ihazdialup]

until consumed by stealing a spell

 

[Ethical]

That means with the relavent level 45 talent, the charges become somewhat perma?

 

[Ihazdialup]

yes, that is correct

 

[Ethical]

That seems really good. Apart from hp, what other stat bonuses do psionic blades give per charge?

 

[SHBlade]

+2 mp per stack
+3 hp per stack
+0.3 ap per stack
+0.2 ap per stack
+0.1 agi per stack

Btw what do u guys think abt replacing agi and hp with crit?
PS. Dunno if Kamina already posted it but levitate aoe is too op.

 

[ALEXz407]

So far at lvl 27 Psion looks good, maybe even too good :
- Good survivability: 30%+ melee attacks are missed, and if you was lucky with loot: +mass melee damage reduce debuff, +self-shield scaled with SP & Armor.
- Versatile: stun with nice damage, you can take any mob to cover your weaknesses.
- Decent damage: not so high as pure casters, but still nice.

And talents tree looks nice. Only two of them makes questions:

"45: 'Draining Timber' now also applies to one-handed weapons."
From discussion in "Two-handed & Shield" i can assume that staff will have better stats than one-handed, so what a point to use one-handed, especially if main skills scale with INT and SP?
Or this bonus will work conversely, granting SP equal to one-handed's AP & STR?

"50: 'Enslave' now allows controlling level 50 creatures."
Looks like Psion will have problems with replacing enslaved creep in endgame dungeons. You can not enslave elite mobs, and max lvl is 45. Can be pretty annoying if Psion in party will sometimes run from dungeon to enslave new creep instead of dead one.
You plan to place enslaveable trash mobs 46+ in dungeons to make this talent shine? Maybe in big groups to make it harder.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Psion isn't really too much better than any other class through out its levels. It may be a bit easier to solo with compared to some squishy DPS classes sure. But its not like it blazes through content as if it was a fully geared level 40 or something.

Also as it stands right now, Soulguard is the best weapon for Psions to use if you take the draining timber skill and talent. Essentially if you're building an auto attack based build the 1h crusader swords should always be better than a staff for this.

And yeah, I dont like that level 50 enslave talent either. I don't see an issue with enslave just working on any creature of equal level or lower, and having that talent replaced with something else.

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

I'm with box on this one. I found Mystic classes really easy to solo level, but it still wasn't as easy as cleric or squire. The 1H talent for psion is very good (as a lvl45 talent should be) because of crusader weapons.

The only issues I have are the astronomical HP and MP values from Psionic Blade and the massive AoE on levitate attacks (with the applicable talent), really that AoE shouldn't be more than 100 or the damage should be halved on secondary targets.

 

[Ethical]

I agree with SHBlade on changing hp and agi to crit (something like 0.1 per charge). Psions don't really need that much hp to begin with because you gain +30% passive evasion due to 1 skill alone and with endgame gear with auras, that could be somewhere in the 50s. I also don't know how many of you would agree but spellhaste/attack speed (something like 0.15 or 0.2) could also replace AP in the near future as most spells are based on SP either way and benefits both caster and right-clicking builds.

Btw, what do people think of this possible new end-game talent: Class restrictions for items are removed. This would give more reason for Psions to use staves like fire choker instead of farming a go-to weapon like the soulguard or serp staff and also add some flexibility in the game.

 

[ALEXz407]

I'm with box on this one. I found Mystic classes really easy to solo level, but it still wasn't as easy as cleric or squire. The 1H talent for psion is very good (as a lvl45 talent should be) because of crusader weapons.

Yeah, seems good for crus swords. Especially MP regeneration. So this talent is fine . Btw i hope endgame magic one-handed will be more balanced, because Soulguard is pretty op comparing to staves.

Talking about Psion: fat slaves + narrow places = frustration! Lvl 26 ogre mage is so good, but you can not take him anywhere, because he will stuck somewhere. Or even worse - he will run near to the closest cliff, aggro mobs and die .
Idk what can be done with this - wc3 pathfinding is annoying sometimes. Maybe make enslaved mobs smaller for around 50%? But this will look weird for smaller ones, and will not fix problem for biggest.
Or maybe teleport creep to the player when 'Retreat' pressed three times if both not in a battle mode?

And some thoughts about Levitation. Maybe add some kind of penalty and make it toggleable instead of annoying 20 sec cooldown? For example reduce run speed by 30% when levitation active. And when you toggle levitation, state change makes Psion immobile for a second. This will make more sense in boss encounters - hit safely from the distance, but risk to catch AoE, or run with normal speed, but lose DPS to escape from melee cleave/AoE.

Overall impression of Psion class is good. Can not say same about Hexblade. Did not start it yet, but played with one in a party: TPS low, DPS low, Survivability slightly better than Psion's, Blade Storm is pretty weak (but Chains look good for control). Maybe everything looks bad because new Hexblades wear STR armor and don't have good SP for abilities, idk.

Small idea for "Blades and Witchcraft": make a talent, that will allow Hexblade to use instant skills when channeling is active. Also you can make +100% channeling duration for Twisting Metal & Blade Storm talent to make synergy even better (for Twisting Metal it will be some kind of drawback, because stun will apply after 6 seconds of channeling instead 3).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Yeah, seems good for crus swords. Especially MP regeneration. So this talent is fine . Btw i hope endgame magic one-handed will be more balanced, because Soulguard is pretty op comparing to staves.

Talking about Psion: fat slaves + narrow places = frustration! Lvl 26 ogre mage is so good, but you can not take him anywhere, because he will stuck somewhere. Or even worse - he will run near to the closest cliff, aggro mobs and die .
Idk what can be done with this - wc3 pathfinding is annoying sometimes. Maybe make enslaved mobs smaller for around 50%? But this will look weird for smaller ones, and will not fix problem for biggest.
Or maybe teleport creep to the player when 'Retreat' pressed three times if both not in a battle mode?

All these are workarounds for a pretty minor problem: that the ramp in foothills is too narrow.
I made it slightly larger for the next release.

And some thoughts about Levitation. Maybe add some kind of penalty and make it toggleable instead of annoying 20 sec cooldown? For example reduce run speed by 30% when levitation active. And when you toggle levitation, state change makes Psion immobile for a second. This will make more sense in boss encounters - hit safely from the distance, but risk to catch AoE, or run with normal speed, but lose DPS to escape from melee cleave/AoE.

All these ideas are pretty terrible, gameplay wise. I don't want Levitate to be a penalty. I'd rather make Levitate a true modal instead, without forced landing after battle ends than adding a penalty for using flight.

Overall impression of Psion class is good. Can not say same about Hexblade. Did not start it yet, but played with one in a party: TPS low, DPS low, Survivability slightly better than Psion's, Blade Storm is pretty weak (but Chains look good for control). Maybe everything looks bad because new Hexblades wear STR armor and don't have good SP for abilities, idk.

Most comments I have received about Hexblade is that it feels pretty good, just has some minor imbalances like Imbue Armor being pretty weak and Distracting Weapon being not significant enough for an active ability.
Both issues will receive a major fix in the next update.
Binding Chains is ironically one of the most popular new spells. Actually, more popular than even Enslave which I originally thought would be the "cooler" ability of the two.
I actually thought about nerfing Binding Chains to not work on bosses, but I felt since it doesn't actually stun or interrupt spellcasting of bosses who are immune to those effects, I think it's worth the experiment to keep it in it's current state. Playing around with the position of bosses a unique effect that not other class has. I'm fine with Hexblade having at least one ability that makes it a kinda unique snowflake and I'm curious what weird boss strategies people will come up with involving Binding Chains.
I'd like to emphasize one thing, though:
The current endgame content is no benchmark of actual class or item balancing. Please be patient for further updates and actual level 50 content before we apply major mechanics redesigns.

Small idea for "Blades and Witchcraft": make a talent, that will allow Hexblade to use instant skills when channeling is active. Also you can make +100% channeling duration for Twisting Metal & Blade Storm talent to make synergy even better (for Twisting Metal it will be some kind of drawback, because stun will apply after 6 seconds of channeling instead 3).

The idea behind BaW was, that you have to time your cooldowns in a tactical fashion, depending on when and how bosses use abilities that require you to reposition. Allowing Hexblades to use other abilities while channeling would destroy that idea. Also, it's powerful enough to justify an ability slot for it even without such talents.

 

[ALEXz407]

All these are workarounds for a pretty minor problem: that the ramp in foothills is too narrow.
I made it slightly larger for the next release.

All these ideas are pretty terrible, gameplay wise. I don't want Levitate to be a penalty. I'd rather make Levitate a true modal instead, without forced landing after battle ends than adding a penalty for using flight.

Sounds good.

Most comments I have received about Hexblade is that it feels pretty good, just has some minor imbalances like Imbue Armor being pretty weak and Distracting Weapon being not significant enough for an active ability.
Both issues will receive a major fix in the next update.

I should note that in previous message i judge from DPS side, totally forgot that main Hex role is tanking. I hope fixes will make Hex TPS higher and she will shine.

Binding Chains is ironically one of the most popular new spells. Actually, more popular than even Enslave which I originally thought would be the "cooler" ability of the two.
I actually thought about nerfing Binding Chains to not work on bosses, but I felt since it doesn't actually stun or interrupt spellcasting of bosses who are immune to those effects, I think it's worth the experiment to keep it in it's current state. Playing around with the position of bosses a unique effect that not other class has. I'm fine with Hexblade having at least one ability that makes it a kinda unique snowflake and I'm curious what weird boss strategies people will come up with involving Binding Chains.

Cast Distracting Weapon on Assassin @ Pull HG casting slam to the casters.
Best class ever for trolling ppl. I want to say this is unusual and cool.

I'd like to emphasize one thing, though:
The current endgame content is no benchmark of actual class or item balancing. Please be patient for further updates and actual level 50 content before we apply major mechanics redesigns.

Can't wait for it!

The idea behind BaW was, that you have to time your cooldowns in a tactical fashion, depending on when and how bosses use abilities that require you to reposition. Allowing Hexblades to use other abilities while channeling would destroy that idea. Also, it's powerful enough to justify an ability slot for it even without such talents.

Yep. After some solo runs i must admin that BaW currently is nice, Hexblade anyway doesn't have spammable spells, so you can use buffs and bursting touch between channeling casts and keep debuff/pull for tactical use at enrage/cast.

And little suggestion at the end.

Change Hexblade 30 lvl talent: Increases movement speed by 10%. => Adds 10% evasion if staff equipped. (who needs movement speed when you can pull enemies towards you?

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Staff build with hexblade needs a large buff.

I actually managed to pull slightly less DPS with mind breaker (The best staff to use atm I think?) than I did with Batters Edge + Shield of the Cavalry. So ultimately the staff builds sacrifices a TON of tankyness to gain.... Negative DPS xD.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Staff build with hexblade needs a large buff.

I actually managed to pull slightly less DPS with mind breaker (The best staff to use atm I think?) than I did with Batters Edge + Shield of the Cavalry. So ultimately the staff builds sacrifices a TON of tankyness to gain.... Negative DPS xD.

As I said, I think staves are a bit underpowered in the current meta. Or Soulguard is just way too good.
But I guess it wouldn't be good to rebalance staves around the Mystic usage, simply because it would unneccesary convolute the item system...

So, yeah, a buff for draining timber will come.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Perhaps a level 50 talent that causes draining timber to turn all spellpower into AP when using a staff + draining timber? I dont THINK this would be OP, but would certainly allow for a decent DPS/support build for hexblade.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Perhaps a level 50 talent that causes draining timber to turn all spellpower into AP when using a staff + draining timber? I dont THINK this would be OP, but would certainly allow for a decent DPS/support build for hexblade.

Draining timber should be a viable ability even without a talent. I can probably add a buff on top of that (many people want me to remove the level 50 enslave talent anyway), but the basic draining timber spell should be better imho.

 

[PachaXD]

a simple idea

Loving Psion so far, fresh class with interesting mechanics. I agree with the part of staves feeling to weak for her. My suggestion related to the class is more of a cosmetic idea, I think it would be nice if our psionic blade would look lamer at lower stacks and look cooler later, just for the whole feeling of progression that will add, basically how hunter pets used to work with wolf/bear changes.