Hi, guys! In the future, please make note that if you wish to comment on any of my articles in a meaningful matter it's best to actually reply to them so that I can hear your thoughts, either negative or positive. I will address any points you bring up in a polite and professional manner so long as you refrain from immaturity and making presumptions, like this guy;
The person who you linked is living in the clouds. His arguments can be thrown down a toliet as they are just pointless whining.
It sounds like to me that you have never actually invested in serious modwork before, friend. Your comments speak to me of someone who does not understand the implications of user interfaces on all users.
Also he is compairing SC2's water with other games with out realising how SC2's supports a lot more. Did the other games support reflections, distortions, HDR and directions?
If you had actually read the topic you'd know I was talking about the placement tool and not the attribute editor of water. My advice is to read topics before making uninformed comments on them; clearly if you had felt strongly enough about your opinion you would have challenged the article directly and not sat back here where you think I can't see you.
He also failed to realise that SC2 mods are data packs and not the traditional mods. They will probably be the large source of moddels for custom maps as they do not (or should not) add to map size.
I don't know how you drew this conclusion or how you feel it's relevant to articles about user interfaces but okay dawg sure thing. Realize that Blizzard's "mods" have a 10mb limit currently, just like maps, and there will be no level of true custom content on battle.net until this significantly goes up. Please do some research on the subject.
Thus ofcourse blizzard does not listen to him. He appears just like all the people spamming that protoss are too weak or mauerders need nerfing.
Sounds like you should sharpen your English skills a bit and maybe do some reading before posting this kind of nonsense. But I do agree - Blizzard won't listen. That is, unless, I get in contact with the dev team like I've been doing.
I am sure if he ran a proper full HCI evaluation using proper recognized sampling techniques to random target people he would be more beliveable, but currently he just is complaining, and I am sure he does that for every game.
I fail to see the relevance of this comment to topics about user interfaces or battle.net's limits.
He also clearly has not made his own games, as those are a lot more technicall handeling all the leaks and making sure it does not crash.
I fail to see the relevance of this comment to topics about user interfaces or battle.net's limits.
I do agree than SC2 aint perfect.
No game is perfect. But every game should strive to be the best it can be.
I am a computer scientist, not some 12 year old. I do not want to see friendly interfaces that make understanding stuff earier for people who should not be modding.
You post like a 12 year old and your posting ettique is that of a 12 year old. Start acting like someone who has a sense of maturity about him and you'll receive more than humiliation for posts like this one. Your post is hyperbole and garbage and has no relevance to anything I posted. You already know this, though, because you're too scared to talk to me directly about your opinions.
If you truly have any kind of experience in computer science you'd know that user interfaces are key to the experience of developers. A bad user interface entails a lengthier production life and a more irritating production life. An interface does not need to be dumbed down to be made intuitive, only organized correctly. I urge you to read topics before making misguided posts in the future.
TheTerran said:
Those who make such long posts really need to get a life. Post it in few paragraphs not in endless Everest-High mountain of text.
All I can say to this is lol. I think it's time to reconsider what
you're doing with your life, good sir.
PurplePoot said:
I find it hilarious that he goes on about how Browder likes big numbers (Immortals are a bit ridiculous but otherwise the stats are fine) and then shows screenshots/videos of his 1000 crappy maps where he took a unit, gave it 999999 health, made it 10.0 scale, and then said LOL IT'S A BOSS.
Celebrated modder? How about no.
This is another grand example of reading comprehention at its finest. I also love how this guy takes something totally out of context and somehow tries to twist it into another context while having absolutely no clue about either context in the first place.
Look at where you're coming from community-wise and smile, girlfriend.
Modding games is not like changing from 1 car to another car of the same model. You will have a learning curve and the tools will all be different. Blizzards current editor might not be the best, but it probably will end up better maintained than WC3's cause it seems it is build more flexibly.
Read. The. Topic. Before. Replying. It'll make you not look like a
total fool.
mrzwach said:
Also, the reason people dislike him is probably due to the fact that the entire post is lined with arrogance.
This is an honest point and I have to agree. But if you think this thread is filled with anything else, you'd be sadly mistaken. Modding is an extremely competitive environment and I'd be lying if I said I didn't consider this a personal subject.
PurplePoot said:
Yeah, a map full of final boss units. Uh-huh.
ROFL... Are you kidding me? You didn't read ANYTHING I POSTED? What the hell part of that thread makes you think that was a
map? Or do you not even know what a mod is?
syltman said:
What I think he should've commented more on is the fact that there's no custom coding. Biggest bullshit ever. I wonder what reason they could have because the only one I can think off is that they want to make it more newbie friendly (I mean you can still import scripts in a certain way). But I mean why should we who likes custom coding suffer from that? All they had to do is add a small fucking button that converted the gui shit to custom code. And the best maps in wc3 was made by those who were more or less developers or script monkeys who both used vJass
A user friendly tool is one where you can quickly edit something to your liking but alternatively go more in-depth like say the WE IMHO.
Also he mentioned Datedit but not vJass.
Hi! Finally a post that is not terrible!
I don't use vjass. I don't program in jass. I have experience with GUI triggers but the wc3 engine limitations turned me off from major projects before I had the opportunity to get into major jass work.
The thing is, I'm not going to address jass or custom code unless I know what I'm talking about. There's a lot of other guys out there who can do that for me. What I can do, though, is address the data editor that
everyone will be using.
I do not agree that a editor needs to be simple or easy to be intuitive and user-friendly. None of the games I've modded would be considered easy and I doubt 90% of the posters here would even attempt them.
Keep in mind that in a mod environment you are often very limited in what you can do with triggering because you do not have pre-placed regions to rely on and memory leaks become much greater of an issue. I cannot say how this will play out in sc2, but in wc3 the two worlds have a very difficult time co-existing especially for someone who is, as you say, not an advanced jass user.
PurplePoot said:
Also, no, I'm not claiming that I have the skills to make a widely successful game. I'm just claiming that he doesn't indicate that he does. As the saying goes, you don't need to be a chef to know that the food tastes like shit.
Now we've gone from modding to making a wildly successful game. I'm sure you have some excellent logic on how you can compare making a game from scratch is comparable to using the attribute editor in an existing platform.
I don't have the skills to make a widely successful game. I'm not a programmer. But I can, and have, made successful mods. Not wc3 mods, but Starcraft ones. They are different, yes. Very different. I'd be lying if I said I made a successful wc3 project, but here's the catch bro.
I have NEVER desired a successful wc3 project outside the days I was young and brash. Back then I had people like Alfred - a name you must recognize - offer to help me and jump ship when I gave them their first job. Your community is no better than what you are trying to brand me as. You meet me with hostility only because you do not understand, and myself in kind.
We have the potential to work this out in a mature manner but it won't happen, will it? You're too full of rage and anger for any voice of reason. I have thus no obligation to explain myself to you if you are but too narrow-sighted and lazy to read and learn.
The problem with his unit argument is that many units in SC2 have plenty of strategic potential
Please read the topic, and preferably garner some form of knowledge on high-level RTS gaming, before trying to dismantle arguments that are clearly well beyond your level of gamesense.
mrzwach said:
However, everything in the data editor is basically just XML files; you can modify it via triggers so I don't think it would be extremely diffciult for someone to create a 3rd party tool that is more user friendly. Also, pretty sure that people are already in the process of making tools to increase scripting support, ie Andromeda/phynGal. I haven't bothered to look into either yet so I'm unsure on the specifics, but it can't be that hard to let you script within the editor.
Voice of reason again.
Actually, because the files are in XML there's always the possibility to make an external data editor for modding purposes in the first place (Not quite as useful for mappers, but modders don't need terrain editing or the like in the first place). One cannot deny the possibility that my arguments about the editor will be rendered irrelevant by a third-party tool.
That said, notice how tabs made it into one of the latest patches?
I don't know if I can personally claim responsibility to that because I don't get word back, but I
have made my words known to the editor dev team. How can I provide evidence to support this claim? I can't. And I wouldn't.
Dr Super Good said:
What you lot fail to realise is they are working on a pretty tight schedual now.
Oh, no, this I perfectly understand dude. The guy I know in Blizzard always tells me how they are working them to death to reach this deadline.
But this is also a beta. The purpose of a beta is to give feedback. I am giving feedback from the perspective of an experienced developer. I said I did not taste the waters of success on my mods because they were not 100% complete. But in every mod I learned something new, in every mod I progressed in my understanding of games and modding as a whole. If any of you have completed projects even remotely close to the scale of those I presented, please let me know. Because individual maps do not demand anywhere near the kind of varied talents you need for a total conversion.
PurplePoot said:
Also, in my experience everyone who complains about engine limitations when they are trying to do something isn't trying hard enough
Unfortunately, your experience must be very poor to make such a statement. I guess you can try to reverse engineer everything like some guys are doing for Diablo 2, but keep in mind they've been at it for years and years nonstop and still aren't finished.
I don't just make high quality resources, I make total conversions. I posted shiny to grab attention. Clearly it worked. Clearly you misunderstood the entire post in the process, though. For that I apologize. Next time I'll write a thesis to go along with it.
Having talked with Zalamander, a brilliant fellow and part of an exciting wc3 mod, limits are a very real thing even for experienced programmers in warcraft 3. I do not expect you to understand that.
Your argument is laughable purly due to everything being opinions. Again you use the "I do not like it so it sucks" approch which makes no sense.
Do you see the irony in this statement? It's painful to behold, like a serrated cheese grater to the face. Your entire post is hilarious to the point that I'm positive you're just a bad troll.
Doctor-Pepper said:
Lol, getting through to blizzard? Do you think blizzard even red that post?
No, not that post. They have read one of my other, less arrogant, more refined posts, though. I had a little help to get it to them.
BlinkBoy said:
It's funny how much people whine over it, but at the end, it will be a success. Just like it has always been. After all, the editor and b.net are in their earlier stages, they will eventually develop to be a lot better in no time.
Is not the purpose of a beta to whine and incite change? If we say nothing, nothing is said. Something must be said. Change will come, yes. Does that mean everyone should be silent and say nothing? That defeats the purpose of why we are here. Why hope for change when we can make effort to encourage change?
It will be a success exclusively because of the Blizzard logo.
Dr Super Good said:
What people fail to see is the data editor follows a prety easy to understand system of logic.
Oh, believe me, the data editor has some good points to it. It has some kind of logic, but it's also grossly disorganized and annoying to use in many of the menus (Unit editor is my big concern). As a wc3 mapper you're used to that by now and it comes by nature, but as someone who's gone through dozens of game editors, some decent some not so much, I see much more potential in this editor and I strive to realize that potential even if it means attracting the ire of bad trolls such as yourself.
Just Spectating said:
actors are so superfluous.
Actually, Actors have the potential to be extremely powerful in ways wc3 could never dream of doing outside of 3ds max. Think of them as the iscript of SC2. But you don't know what the iscript is because you've never modded Starcraft before, right?
Yeah, iscript is
my territory. Just as Jass is yours. We are from different worlds but we both want the same thing, do we not? An intuitive, powerful editor.
I do not ask that the editor be dumbed down and made "easy". There is a grand learning curve to all things. I know this well, for I am a 3ds max user, I've attempted music composition, and I have been modding games since I was but a child. I do not expect to jump into sc2 on day one and make my conversions.
But what I do expect is for companies to support their tools and make them the best they can be. To help them reach these goals I raise awareness. I acknowledge I could have done it in a less inflammatory manner but, y'know what? I'm human. I have a temper, and an ego. I cannot change that. Yes, I have mental illnesses. Yes, it effects my ability to communicate and do what I do.
I also stand by my argument about casual gamers. But your views have been twisted so much that it doesn't matter what I say about it. I come from a very different background.
mrzwach said:
If he was so legendary, why has nothing he has made "tasted the waters of success"? Not refuting your point, just wondering. Because honestly, if he was as good as people say he was, I would have to imagine he was pretty damn successful (or at least somewhat)
I understand the perspective you and (the much less subtle) Nogusta come from. Because I made this statement it has really skewed your perspective.
To me, success is total completion. DotA is not completed yet, is it? No. It still sees updates. It still sees additions. But it's also just a map. It has some kitbashes and some sounds ripped out of UT, it's mostly data and JASS work. A lot of work, yes, but it's still not a mod.
Armageddon Onslaught is amongst the most complete Starcraft conversions ever made. Few mods have ever had the kind of resources and time investing into breaking the limits of Starcraft and exceeding the boundaries previous modders had lined out like this, and each one will forever be remembered. AO is a tech demo and a proof of concept. It is flashy, it has a lot of assets, and at first it may not seem that significant outside these elements.
The reason it is not "totally" complete because I did not fine-tune the graphics and the crash issue with the limit expander was not solvable (yeah, we hacked apart the engine something fierce to get it to work in the first place).
Success is relative to the beholder. You won't see as a Legend, or perhaps even that great, because my work is scattered here and there. I cannot refute this, nor do I want to. I present what I have done openly.
But know this - no matter what you do, be it small or large, successful or not, contributes to who and what you are.
I couldn't give two shits about download numbers. My very first wc3 map had over 20k downloads, and it was a terrible, terrible map. But I've learned something over my years of modding, something maybe you guys will one day learn when you start making big projects - it's not about the fame. It's not about the hits. It's about making your dreams come to life. If you do not work for yourself you will not find enjoyment in what you do. Thus it doesn't bother me to set my projects to rest should something happen that prevents their progress, and there are many factors involved in what I do as a person and as a modder.
I don't expect you to comprehend any of it.
grow up, it's not like your opinion on how good he does something even matters.
Do you see the irony in this statement? Yep, we've been here before, haven't we?
Your arrogance exceeds that of even mine. I applaud you; your trolling skills may one day come to fruition. But that day is not today. Your hyperbole only amuses me.
PurplePoot said:
I'm a modder and I seem to find more time to play than most people on this forum do.
A modder or a mapper? They are two entirely different things and judging by the inexperience your posts reek of I doubt you are a modder. You do not seem to comprehend the difference between the two. I'm sorry that this has upset you.
PurplePoot said:
Which is why identifiers were removed; to make this easier.
Forgot the part where names aren't unique still, huh?
Rui said:
On top of this, I'm still wondering whether neutral hostile units are a concept to keep on Starcraft II, so we never know if we'll have more models to work with thanks to them, like we had in Warcraft III.
Hi,
There is a lot more assets in sc2 in the campaign (thus available on the release client), and yes there is a "neutral hostile" type player for easy access.
I hope that Blizzard plans on reducing the size limit before release, or perhaps allow people to share their resources (ie models, skins, that kinda stuff) with the community without using up their valuable space.
The limitations will no doubt go up on release but the prospect of limiting the # of maps you can upload without the option for local hosting should
terrify you lot more than it does me.
What amuses me more than the quantity of uninformed hypocritical posts in this thread is the fact that I managed to get so many trolls riled up on an entirely different forum, and none of them had the stones to address me directly. To that I bid you good day and farewell. If you have something to say you know where to find me.
