The Silly Greymane Wall

[Jaina Proudless]

'No guards stand at its battlements or man its gates — the wall seems dead. Nevertheless, refugees from the north camp in the wall’s shadow, hoping for succor. These unfortunates never see a Gilnean and are easy prey for the worgen that occasionally stray this far south from Shadowfang Keep' - http://wow.gamepedia.com/Greymane_Wall

I am going on the assumption that this is true and calling the wall a thing of grand silliness. The thing is is that a wall can only keep people out if it is manned. Without any guards anyone can easily use a ladder (with silverpine nearby anyone can hammer together a quick ladder) to scale it and might as well throw down a few roped ladders when on top for his buddies. Leaving a massive wall unmanned is an invitation for a rival faction to simply take the fortification for themselves.

Unless I am missing something the greymane wall is one big joke. Am I missing something? Some sort of loop-hole-closing magic perhaps?

 

[VeljkoM]

Well simple refugees can't possibly make siege ladders (no can't use regular sized ladders, that would be a very stupid wall then) on their own. You can't just "hammer" a quick ladder from local trees. Of course if an army decided to breach the wall nothing would have stopped them. Honestly I myself wondered what is the big deal with the wall in world where flying is very common or you know use a ship.

Nobody ever accused WoW of being logical anyway, that would be just silly.

 

[Jaina Proudless]

Damn, I didn't even think about the flying but I disagree; refugees can make a siege ladder. A siege ladder isn't really much different from a normal ladder aside from the size really so it wouldn't take a genius to connect together two or three ladders and ta da there you go. Give me a few nails, ropes, and a hammer and I can get it done.

Perhaps if it was in a desert where trees a scarce I would understand but it is next to a forest...

You do have a point though, what was I thinking of bringing logic into WoW, silly me.

 

[VeljkoM]

No you would need carpentry tools and skill to do it, you don't make ladders with hammer and nails unless you want to fall and die. Refugees aren't likely to carry with them and you can't knock down a tree with hammers nor can you cut planks etc. Making ladders out in the open with no proper tools isn't easy and that is even if we accept notion that siege ladders are just scaled up regular ladders. Also it would take considerate time to make proper siege ladders even if you do get carpenters in your refugee group since most likely worgen, forsaken, crusaders or something else would kill you beneath the walls by the time you manage somehow to cut your first tree.

For invading armies it is different as they have soldiers and engineers.

 

[Hawkwing]

The thing that puzzles me is that those refugees were there for awhile. That is going by World of Warcraft's portrayal of that time though, which probably isn't accurate. I expect the refugees would have dispersed as they were slowly picked off by the worgen. Regardless, if they were there for any significant amount of time, you would think they would have determined a way over, through, or around the walls.

I'm inclined to agree that a siege ladder wouldn't have been their solution though. The Greymane Wall is massive. Hammering a rickety series of wooden planks together, using material which they may not even have, wouldn't work out too well, especially not if it must reach such heights. An army could have made its way through the wall, but what army was there to do that? Around the time the Greymane Wall went up, the orcs left Lordaeron, and both the Scourge and the Burning Legion had no reason to waste resources invading Gilneas. What the wall succeeded in doing was keeping cultists (from the Cult of the Damned at least) and wandering undead out.

And flying, as prevalent as it is in World of Warcraft, in the novels it is fairly rare (with exception to some of the worse ones). Unless you're with a band of Wildhammer dwarves, you probably won't have any gryphons, and things like flying machines are talked about as if they are myths.

As for the quote from wowpedia you've provided, I want to believe that's an exaggeration, or that's what it looks like from below. Perhaps there were patrols atop the wall, but infrequently.

 

[VeljkoM]

Warcraft World has changed, in the old days flying was more unique and incredible thing mostly available to Wildhammers, Dragonmaw and well goblins. But now in WoW flying (and magic) as whole at least to me doesn't seem that special anymore with zeppelin trade routs, sky gunships, flying cities etc. From what you are saying it reminds me of the Day of the Dragon time which was even before wc3 (well ok it is the only one I read). Still even in pre-WoW era I would have expected that Scourge could send Gargoyles over the wall. And to be honest Wc3 campaign to me always suggested that Burning Legion was destroying human kingdoms so I never understood why Gilneas stood while Stromgarde survived undead and demons only to fall under criminals and ogres.

Again what exactly prevented anyone to set sail around wall, ships aren't that rare. Heck undead can just walk around it, and maybe even climb since not like undead get tired. Of course maybe the quote means that wall is incredibly tall that you can't even see guards on top. And honestly judging Gilneas by original lore I wouldn't be surprised they watched refugees get slaughtered and not bothering to do anything.

...again trying to think about wow lore. When will I learn.

 

[Hawkwing]

I think it's a fair assumption that canonically flight has become more prevalent, particularly with Gunships and zeppelins. I have a tendency to consider the player's character more of an oddity than a commonplace adventurer, as they're depicted in the game. I recall when reading Stormrage that somebody (Tyrande, perhaps?) acquires a hearthstone and treats it as if it is something of legend. This makes me think that these adventurers running around are less common than it seems. Just like the rarity of those who hold hearthstones, I would expect those who have a flying mount readily available to be fairly rare as well. Flying certainly isn't depicted as something special, but I would like to think that it is something much more fantastic than what is depicted in World of Warcraft.

The ocean definitely does present a big vulnerability in Gilneas' defenses. It wouldn't be hard for a committed group of people to simply swim around the far ends of the wall. The Greymane Wall can't be anything more than a deterrent for an attack and an obvious, physical way of separating themselves from the Alliance. All these vulnerabilities are easy to exploit, but only to those who have a strong desire to exploit them. The only group that ever seemed to have that interest was the Forsaken and they succeeded. They did almost everything that has been suggested in this thread; they landed ships near Duskhaven, busted open the Greymane Wall's gate, and even got their pals in the Horde to fly in an airship. I think the only difference between them and the Legion or the Scourge was that the demons always had bigger fish to fry.

Still, the construction of the Greymane Wall would have been a massive undertaking, so that does beg the question, "Why bother?" All that material could have gone to their military, or perhaps even the economy that they were hoping to protect (among other things) when breaking ties with the Alliance.

 

[ChaosWyrm]

Still, the construction of the Greymane Wall would have been a massive undertaking, so that does beg the question, "Why bother?" All that material could have gone to their military, or perhaps even the economy that they were hoping to protect (among other things) when breaking ties with the Alliance.

Perhaps the Wall was sufficient protection at the time. If manned, you could have archers picking off aerial attackers and boiling oil poured down on climbers.

Greymane couldn't have forseen the Worgen curse turning Gilneas upside down, the Forsaken existing in the first place, or the Cataclysm busting a nice opening in the wall.

Attacks from the sea were a possibility (as proven by the Forsaken). There is little mention of any Gilnean navy, though this applies to any Alliance naval forces other than Kul Tiras.

 

[VeljkoM]

Well WoW players to me are non entity since most raids in actually story aren't done by "random group of adventurers" but often replaced by existing characters (this is why I find very annoying when wow players speak about lore from "we" perspective). But even without players at least to me it seems that both sides have over the time developed sizable air forces thanks to technology (which is schizophrenic at best).

And yet for years (or how long is anyway time between third war and Cataclysm) nobody cared to establish any contact with Gilneas and Kul Tiras. And when someone finally decided it was the Horde and then suddenly Alliance remembered and sent help.

As for why build the wall well it definitely is better than to have open border and Gilneas was described as richest kingdom (god knows how with their isolation). They were probably originally intended to have an actual navy with sole purpose to prevent any landing. I can't actually remember though how did worgen curse even penetrate isolation to cause all that catastrophe.

 

[Hawkwing]

As for why build the wall well it definitely is better than to have open border and Gilneas was described as richest kingdom (god knows how with their isolation). They were probably originally intended to have an actual navy with sole purpose to prevent any landing. I can't actually remember though how did worgen curse even penetrate isolation to cause all that catastrophe.

Ah, I wasn't aware that Gilneas was considered prosperous. If that was the case then, hell, they might as well build as many giant walls as they want. I think the wolf cult used tunnels underneath the wall. I haven't actually read the comic/graphic novel though.

 

[VeljkoM]

From Warcraft II manual.

Despite the impending Orcish invasion,
Gilneas has remained separate from the Alliance of Lordaeron.
As ruler of one of the strongest Human nations, Genn
Greymane is convinced that his own armies can deal with
any threat, and has therefore remained unmoved by Lord
Lothar’s pleas for unity. Despite this apparent disdain for
the Alliance, the denizens of Gilneas harbor no fondness for the
Orcs or their allies and are prepared to meet them blade for blade.

Hmm guess I misremembered. They were just generically "strong" with no context. Though considering they did not suffer in any war and even refused to participate in post second war rehabilitation project for orcs it wouldn't be strange for "one of strongest" kingdoms to be wealthy enough to make the Wall (just guess they didn't think of doing it like Constantinople). You know if worgen curse hadn't happen they would kinda be the most powerful human nation left, since basically only Stormwind remains and it was rather recently restored so can't be as prosperous as it was before Dark portal was opened. But humans are so much disliked anyway so nobody really cares that human species suffered insane disasters.

No I don't count Dalaran as "human kingdom" really, by now it is Eldricht Abomination that can't die.

 

[Heinvers]

No I don't count Dalaran as "human kingdom" really, by now it is Eldricht Abomination that can't die.

It's not the city itself that doesn't die but the Kirin'Tor that refuses defeat

 

[Jaina Proudless]

It's not the city itself that doesn't die but the Kirin'Tor that refuses defeat

Everyone refuses defeat in WoW. If they did then the player won't have fun factions to play with. Soon enough Azeroth will suffer from severe overpopulation.

 

[VeljkoM]

The Eldrchit Powers of Dalaran are far older than WoW. Kirin Tor are just the spawns of the Elder god that is Dalaran.

Oh and for the main topic... Graymane architects should be punished for doing such sloppy work.

 

[Jaina Proudless]

If anyone should be punished it should be the writers of blizzard for lobotomizing the lore.

 

[takakenji]

umm no... nobody could just make a ladder to scale a wall that big out of the local trees lmfao

 

[Chaosy]

umm no... nobody could just make a ladder to scale a wall that big out of the local trees lmfao

Travel to mount hyjal and cut down a certain tree, how hard can it be?

 

[Razosh]

Travel to mount hyjal and cut down a certain tree, how hard can it be?

Gee I wounder how that could possibly backfire...