The sad state of animating for Wacraft Modding

[BoatyMcBoatface300]

I just got around to thinking about learning to animate here, and it gets unnecessarily hard for any aspiring animators here to learn how to animate.

Why? Because there's a need to learn how to model first.

I mean, if someone here added animations to a villager, it probably won't be counted as a new model. (unless it's something like what, 100+ new animations)
If someone adds one or two new animation to a model, it definitely would be considered as a substandard model and would be taken down.

So to get to submitting to the model section, they would essentially need to learn modelling, uv-mapping, possibly texturing, rigging before finally animating. (And unless they do this, nobody on HIVE would know that so-and-so is an animator/learning to be one. Even this section, going through 3 pages here, it's mostly technical issues.)

And seriously people, you want more animators. Anyone who've worked on a map with a dedicated animator can agree that having animations tailor-made for your map is the difference of day and night as compared to using generic animations from any run-off-the-mill model here.


TL-DR Animating wc3 models here requires you to learn modelling, UV-mapping, rigging first. Thus it is unnecessarily difficult for beginners to learn animating on this forum.



So what do all of you think, especially fellow animators?
How do you think HIVE could help people to learn animating? Like giving feedbacks for animation.
Giving feedbacks is probably the most important thing for beginners.

Or if you think I'm biased and wrong, and animating is good as it is, feel free to reply as well

 

[GhostWolf]

This is a forum, you can start a thread to ask questions, you can attach your own personal edited/new models and get feedback or help.

I don't quite understand what is missing.

Now if you are talking about accepting existing models with edited animations into the resource section, that's a whole other discussion, but how is it related to learning?

 

[PROXY]

The thing is, animating is so much harder then modeling, at least in my experience. It might be different if you use higher quality tools (like Blender and 3dsmax) but pretty much the only software for free without any kind of entrance barrier is mdlvis, and its a rough trip getting used to it. It has its qualities but can also be very frustrating.

So you're right, to get somewhat of a fighting chance modelling is kinda needed. BUT here comes the but:

Wc3 modelling blossoms because of its low entrance barrier. If you are capable of geo-merging, simple uv edits and have some very basic knowledge in any kind of low poly modelling software (and even the first two are enough) you can already create something decent for wc3. There's no need for scratch-made meshes most of the time (and most people won't see the difference anyway) and thanks to the simple bone structure of most already existing models, using ingame animations is a piece of cake (again, if you know some very basic rigging - which sometimes isn't needed anyway if you base your model on an existing model).

So you can also flip this argument: Wc3 modelling is great because you don't need to learn how to animate. Animating requires much training, understanding of movement (in general, but also how movement works in wc3 and how the dynamics are here) which is detail work and is a long trip to undertake, which is why I stayed away for it for a long time.

This "fact" counters your argument to a certain degree; yes, modelling might be required to get "accepted" (we could also discuss on if it does even matter if its a substandard model or not, or if its really needed for it to be approved and uploaded in the database to have an impact - but this is kind of another topic) but the entrace barrier for modelling in wc3 is very low, so the entrance barrier for starting animating is not that high either.

----

TLDR: I don't think animating is less sought after because of people needing to learn modelling first, but rather because animating is just harder and has a far steeper learning curve. Satisfying and actually good/usable results come way later then while doing some simple modelling stuff.

Regarding feedback: It's already given very much (and in my experience very nicely) when you upload a model or post a WIP somewhere. Many people have already acquired a certain knowledge of how things should move in wc3 and how they should not, even if they do not have any experience in modelling. This helps a great deal because you can easily get blind while animating, thinking you're doing well, but people will quickly tell you that you need to make your animations smoother, faster, slower, etc.

 

[Footman16]

Yeah as someone who's only recently gotten into modelling the amount you can do with simple tools for geo-merging and editing to create new models is vast.

However when it comes to animating it is a lot trickier to get something to look right and work the way you want it. For me animating is definitely the trickiest thing to learn how to edit.

 

[BoatyMcBoatface300]

@GhostWolf
Well, I don't really see that section...for anyone to post WIP model and ask for feedback.
Or post WIP animation only and ask for feedback.
Is it "The Lab"? Because it seems like a WIP section only for programming.

@PROXY
Might just be me then, I find animating easier to learn than modelling, since modelling really demands you to know your 2D drawing skills - either for making textures (unless you use ingame ones), or for your anatomy lessons.
Until now, I still find it extremely hard to make humanoid models, mostly because of anatomy and proportions.
Animating on the other hand, well yea, there is a learning curve, no doubt, but really the same for modelling as well.

Regarding your feedback part, yea, but it's usually given alongside a 3d model that you've probably made yourself yea?
What if we like, cut out that part, and giving feedbacks only on the animations.

@Footman16
I see.
I wonder if there's anyone here who finds animating easier


Well, it's interesting to be seeing other people's PoV that's different from mine.

 

[Footman16]

@Footman16
I see.
I wonder if there's anyone here who finds animating easier


Well, it's interesting to be seeing other people's PoV that's different from mine.

Tbf my aninating has only been done in RMS which i asusme is quite limited and difficult.

I'll be touching on blender animating soon so ill let you know how i find that.

 

[BoatyMcBoatface300]

Tbf my aninating has only been done in RMS which i asusme is quite limited and difficult.

I'll be touching on blender animating soon so ill let you know how i find that.

Cool mate
Using Blender is gonna be great, but do beware if you wanna make it work in wc3.
Gotta read the "current issues" for the exporter and what it does or doesn't support.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I'll push back a bit on your assertion that one cannot Animate without first learning/practicing Modeling/UVWrapping/etc. I imagine it must be entirely feasible to mess around with existing (standard/custom) units, modifying & then fully fabricating their animations.

Now, if you're talking about uploading custom animations... Yeah that's a bit trickier. Our current Resource Upload system isn't particularly well-suited to handle purely Animation entries (much in the same way it's not well-suited for custom Voice Lines/Sound-sets, or kinda for custom UI's).

However, I still don't think it's prohibitive; sure you might make some waves, and perhaps be misunderstood & shunted to the "Substandard" section (which I agree is a horrible name but really it's not as bad as it sounds to be there), but ultimately I think it could work.

And I think it would be worthwhile too; like you said, custom animations (when done right) really pop off the screen to us hardened modders. After seeing the 10,000th iteration of the Blademaster, Blood Mage, or Beastmaster, you kinda get a little tired of them. x ) But custom animations can really set your project apart (something I've worked hard to emphasize, where possible, with my Trolls).

This is a forum, you can start a thread to ask questions, you can attach your own personal edited/new models and get feedback or help.

Orrrr Option 3, he can start a thread to simply have a Discussion. That seems to be the most applicable here.

 

[BoatyMcBoatface300]

Ay, well thanks for everyone's different input.

Well, guess things are ok then.

Orrrr Option 3, he can start a thread to simply have a Discussion. That seems to be the most applicable here.

Yea, actually this is the one thing I don't see besides the model submission section, where people comment on other's animation.
There's no WIP section, and it's not in this section (at least, I don't see any precedents, but then again I've only gone through 3 pages and most of it are technical issues rather than "art" ones).
The Lab seemed like it, but seems more of WIP for programming-stuffs.

I'm guessing this section is it, just that nobody asks for feedback here.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback guis.

 

[PROXY]

There are lot of WIP threads in here, mostly from people collecting all their stuff in one thread and posting various WIPs of their models there.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I do agree that the rule for model submissions should be changed to allow for heavy animation edits too regardless of model changes.


That being said, the standards should be quite high for this to work. Adding one or two custom animations should not be enough for a submission. Replacing all animations or adding a substantial amount could be acceptable.

As someone who does both modelling and animating I agree that both things need a big amount of expertise to be good. Animating is just as demanding as modelling on its own - especially if the model has a complex geometry or fancy details like cloth, hair, etc.

Lets remember that there are things like the 255 anim villager model.


If you want to start a petition to change the model submission rules to allow for animation edits, i suggest you contact the Hive staff about this. You'd definitely get my support.

 

[Murlocologist]

Well, the entire forum used to be much more active, especially when it comes to modding, not long time ago. It feels quite deserted nowadays, to me at least.

The low activity is certainly affecting the amount of feedback and interaction in general.

As for animating, you can do it in mdlvis, you can do it in blender...only real tools you need are enthusiasm and focus.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I do agree that the rule for model submissions should be changed to allow for heavy animation edits too regardless of model changes.


That being said, the standards should be quite high for this to work. Adding one or two custom animations should not be enough for a submission. Replacing all animations or adding a substantial amount could be acceptable.

As someone who does both modelling and animating I agree that both things need a big amount of expertise to be good. Animating is just as demanding as modelling on its own - especially if the model has a complex geometry or fancy details like cloth, hair, etc.

Lets remember that there are things like the 255 anim villager model.


If you want to start a petition to change the model submission rules to allow for animation edits, i suggest you contact the Hive staff about this. You'd definitely get my support.

I second this. Somebody start a thread in "Site Discussion" & ping me so I remember to post there. x )

I'm not sure how we should define "substantial amount" (and whether that means animating-from-scratch or modifying-existing-animations (i.e. "geomerginganimating" : P)), but I'm likely to want the bar set relatively low (at least to start), to encourage people to try it out.

That or a separate resource repository/tag for such things "(minor animation edit)". Something like "Substandard" but with a better name. : |

 

[BoatyMcBoatface300]

I second this. Somebody start a thread in "Site Discussion" & ping me so I remember to post there. x )

I'm not sure how we should define "substantial amount" (and whether that means animating-from-scratch or modifying-existing-animations (i.e. "geomerginganimating" : P)), but I'm likely to want the bar set relatively low (at least to start), to encourage people to try it out.

That or a separate resource repository/tag for such things "(minor animation edit)". Something like "Substandard" but with a better name. : |

Can this be considered as pinging?

Made a thread here.
Quoted what Zwie and Kyrbi0 said.