Sylvanas is useless (kinda)

[Chaosy]

So I stumbled upon a thread on an Roleplay forum which had some arguments regarding Sylvanas and her uselessness. Initially I read it for the giggles, but it holds some weight.

While I do not agree with all of it, it most certain has some aspects of truth.

Her primary tactic of trying to stop Arthas was destroying a bridge and then trying to poke his army down, despite how large it was and the fact that every time she tried to fight him, people would die and be resurrected as Scourge reinforcements. This fate awaited her as well, she just tried throwing people, distance.

No. Arthas was not nearly stopped. He was never halted, never pushed back even a little bit. His assault was unrelenting - hence why the Dead Scar only goes in one direction - through Silvermoon

I mean, it does hold some truth.
What is the point of shooting down a bridge against an Scourge army?
They can swim over without dying, they do not need to breathe.
They do not need to transport food or anything that can be damaged by water.
They do have zeppelins and similar methods of getting across too.

There is an argument to be made, stating that Dar'Khan Drathir let them through. But if their defense was completely absolute they would not need to delay the Scourge anyway, I think it is fair to say that the Scourge would have won eventually regardless of that betrayal.

While I understand it was probably just gameplay at the time, it is now cannon.

Thoughts?

 

[UUcounterspell]

Please let me understand. Are we actually trying to find any sense in Blizzard's narration here?

I wholeheartedly believe that Blizzard's lore shouldn't be approached with the hope to find any consistency or sense in it. Most was written with other goals in mind and if you want to make speculation on it you shouldn't forget that.

I don't understand why it is surprising that a gameplay-based narrative choice has become canon.

 

[Chaosy]

It is not surprising, merely annoying for those few of us that try to make sense of it all.

Example, if I want to write a story for a map in the warcraft universe I need to understand the lore as good as possible.

And I'd say the scenario is a pretty big deal in Warcraft history so understanding this one is pretty important.

 

[UUcounterspell]

Difficult to argue with you, it's definitely annoying.

But the fact remains that blizzard's story often doesn't make sense.

In case you want to write fanfic on a scenario that has consistency problems, I suggest you use some of the same techniques that are used by the owners at blizz: bend the facts to your goals, insert influences from supernatural forces to explain the inexplicable, invent retcons to slightly correct previous versions of the story.

Edit: I'll devise a simplistic example.
- you could highlight the blitzkrieg character of the assault on quel'thalas. "they weren't expecting it".
- you could invent the fact that to allow for the local population to escape, parties of soldiers were sent to distract and delay the scourge army, even though there was no hope of victory. You could present the same kind of excuse for destroying bridges.

(and so on with random bullshit that convinces you)
Just don't stray too far with your lies from the canon, or the angry fanbase will bark at you.

 

[HappyTauren]

Please let me understand. Are we actually trying to find any sense in Blizzard's narration here?

^ me, every time someone tries to argue about blizzard lore.

 

[ddengster]

It's been said a couple of times elsewhere, but WoW was not good for Warcraft lore in general - Blizzard had to make ways for the players to feel involved, and they had only so many resources to spend on each noteworthy character in WoW. But I'd say that Sylvanas is still a character of worth, just look at how they butchered Tyrande's character in WoW. Sylvanas attempted to enslave a valkyrie, and also gave some smacktalk to garrosh - so I wouldn't think of her as useless.

 

[Dr Super Good]

She stopped caring about Azeroth since she discovered she can stomp fortifications like nothing in Heroes of the Storm, where she also gets more competent allies to assist her.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Sylvanas attempted to enslave a valkyrie, and also gave some smacktalk to garrosh - so I wouldn't think of her as useless.

Yes, she has tried to enslave a Val'kyr, but failed. She talked down Garrosh, but those were just words.

If there's anything that Sylvanas has accomplished in the recent history that made her useful, I'd say that it was hauling's the Horde's ass out of that whole Broken Shore mess, before the majority of their leadership got slaughtered. And I say this an someone who prefers the Alliance.

 

[Chaosy]

I do not think her combat abilities are bad.

But her strategy.. questionable to say the least. After all she has died 3 times now?

 

[Sieben]

I don't have a single clue about what happens to her in WoW, since I lost interest in lore after vanilla. But about this:

Her primary tactic of trying to stop Arthas was destroying a bridge and then trying to poke his army down, despite how large it was and the fact that every time she tried to fight him, people would die and be resurrected as Scourge reinforcements. This fate awaited her as well, she just tried throwing people, distance.

I think the matter here is just about the gap between gameplay and lore. She destroyed a bridge in Warcraft III, but it was for gameplay purposes: it allowed Blizzard to base a map on portals (which is not my favourite map, too much magic...). From a lore point a view, you may think it this way: she tried to gain time. After all, despite what was said about undead capable of crossing without breathing, well, they didn't do it! (again, for gameplay reasons, of course).

As for poking Arthas' army, things can be viewed the same way: she tried to save time. What for? I don't know, maybe to have time to bring reinforcements, or something like that. Of course she was sent her soldiers to fight Arthas, what else could she do?
Sure, when you see it from gameplay point of view, it's really silly: Elven warriors attack in small groups, like 4-6 people at a time, it's ridiculous and it doesn't make any sense from a realistic point a view. (and also, the undead start all three maps in Quel'thalas with 3 ghuls and 2 acolytes, what an army!)

As I see it, in game events are symbolic, representing "real" events with a smaller scale and a few changes to fit gameplay. If these events had happened for real, I guess Sylvanas must have been fighting the Scourge by applying a shoot & run tactic, to weaken Arthas' army and save time. I don't know if this was the best strategy (perhpas it wasn't, since it didn't work...), but I don't know what else she could have done. She wouldn't let Arthas walking around in her land without trying something. At least she tried.

Also, I'd say that it shouldn't have been easy for her or for anyone else fighting the Scourge at that time, because it was a rather new faction, and people probably weren't totally aware of what would happen with their dead warriors.

Lastly, even if she ended up slayed and resurrected, I'd say Sylvanas was quite a big thorn in Arthas' side for a long time. If you ever played the game in hard difficulty, you can't say it was piece o'cake to take down the Elves

 

[Gauda]

well i agree that there was not much she could do at all when we just look at the nearly endless army of undead Arthas had access to.

To the strategy-part: it´s all about gameplay to make an interesting map (e.g. why should the undead even pay money for new zeppelins) and obviously symbolic.
As far as i know it doesn´t have much in common with the WoW map (i never played WoW and only know someone playing it, so correct me if i´m wrong)

But there is one point there i think Sylvanas was quite useless: Why did nobody informed that the Scourge is coming until they are knocking the door? (well gameplay and so one but this is something you can´t explain in my opinion)

Concerning WoW: as far as i know i would say that the stories about her are more side-stories (not unimportant but also not the very big events)
Broken Shore (i saw the cinematics): well i think she fled a bit to fast when Vol´jin died --> this caused extra problems downgrading Sylvanas.

Conclusion: She is not useless but i think she could have made better decisions (Blizzard could have made her making better decisions if they wouldn´t be in need of some ... explanations.

PS: since i didn´t played WoW, what were their other 2 deadths?