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Is Sylvanas Evil?

Discussion in 'World of Warcraft' started by Razosh, Sep 2, 2017.

?

Is Sylvanas Evil?

  1. Yes

    51.6%
  2. No

    48.4%
  1. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Two days ago I was poking around and found this on Youtube:



    This got me thinking, what are peoples opinion when it comes to Sylvanas Windrunner? Sylvanas is a complicated character to put into terms of black and white as she always seems to blur the line. An additional issue is that I've to this day yet to encounter an unbiased opinion on the matter. Even my opinion is biased as I'm a massive elf-fan so Sylvanas is a character who has more than once peaked my interests.

    In many ways Sylvanas is an interesting character who does, many times rather cruel and malevolent deeds in order to protect her people. And while her actions aren't as questionable as those of for example Illidan she's certainly a complicated character who needs to be discussed. Is she justified in doing what she does.



    But for my opinion on the matter, Sylvanas has always struck me as someone who's willing to protect her people no matter what. And that's the key no matter what that both makes her great and forces her to sometimes go to far. From my viewpoint it doesn't seem like Sylvanas likes to create mindless husks or keep slaves, all the people under her command seem to have free will and make their own decisions as clearly seen with Lilian Voss and Nathanos Marris. Well... that's up until this happened.



    This is one of two lore moments where her actions are really difficult to defend, the other being when she tortured Koltira because she's just not in a moral grey-area any more she's just plain wrong. But even though she's wrong I can, unlike when she decides to torture Koltira see why she does what she does. Her actions are absolutely unacceptable but they are somewhat understandable. During the Cataclysm we see how fragile her people's position actually is, they can't reproduce and hence slowly nearing extinction. To counter this Sylvanas gets the aid of the 9 val'kyrs, the only problem is 5 of them are now dead. The Forsaken are in constant threat of extinction and Sylvanas as well as her people need the val'kyrs to survive.


    So in my opinion is Sylvanas evil? No not really, while she does what's often cruel deeds she doesn't do them to inflict pain she does it because it's her view of what's best for her people. So no I don't see Sylvanas as evil. But what do you think please share your opinion.
     
  2. Direfury

    Direfury

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    Her whole thing about protecting the Forsaken is pretty stupid. They're undead. If she wants to live forever, go the hell ahead, but honestly, judging by how cold many of the Forsaken get after being reanimated, and how empty they seem, why not just let them die out, if that's what they now want.

    Other than that, I can't disagree with her tendency to go to any lengths to achieve her goals, regardless of the morality of her actions.
     
  3. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Except it's not what they want, in the death knight campaign we revive Whitemane who was rather wicked in life and hence lives an afterlife of torment. When revived she more than gladly accepted a chance at redemption. As easy as it may seem to say that resurrecting the dead is bad, the dead don't seem to agree.

    And as for Sylvanas, she did commit suicide and found herself being tormented by the Void Lords so that may not be a great idea.
     
  4. Direfury

    Direfury

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    What I'm saying is that her choice to continue to build the numbers of the Forsaken is downright idiotic. Let the dead rest. Those that are reanimated now have the choice of living on, or returning to the embrace of death. By all rights the Forsaken should not be growing. Not unless those that are raised specifically, in life, stated that that is their wish.

    Sylvanas can pursue immortality all she wants, but it seems like she doesn't want to be the only Forsaken left one day.
     
  5. Razosh

    Razosh

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    And why not? I don't know about you but being granted eternal life would seem attractive to most. If you do not wish to live on as a undead you do not have to, but you're saying that the druids, the paladins, the priests, the shamans, the monks and the death knights are all doing the wrong things by dabbling in resurrection? To be honest the only real difference between what Sylvanas is doing and what the others are doing is that those Sylvanas resurrect are slightly less attractive. But if being ugly is a sin then do share. :D
     
  6. Direfury

    Direfury

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    Not really seeing the point, huh?

    When the Forsaken are first reanimated, they tend to go through a period of great change. Seemingly one that isn't of their own choosing. Much of what was important, what made people human is apparently gone. No hunger. No thirst. No emotion. No warmth. No rest. Just coldness. Emptiness. It brings on a sort of... potentially eternal depression. The only difference being that suicide no longer seems like an escape. Hell, it probably did before they were reanimated. So they're resigned to unlife, watching their bodies rot and decay.

    There are certain things that make us human, and to so viscerally lose them, we would lose ourselves. I'd wager that most any previously normal reanimated folk would slowly begin to lose their minds as the environment wreaks havoc on their remains, with the process only getting exponentially worse as they're reduced to walking, thinking skeletons.

    To anyone who would want that after their death, fine. To the rest, let them sleep. It's a curse to those already resurrected. Personally, I see death as eternal rest, eternal peace. No more fighting. No more abuse. No more suffering. Most with the same view would likely immediately turn on their reanimator for taking that away from them.


    Besides that, in an effort to be as polite as possible, lets try this. Lets say you've lived your life, you're an old man. You come down with something, and are fading away. You get a chance to say your goodbyes, but then, against your will, a treatment is administered. One that forces you back to life, but curses you with the most active, virulent form of leprosy on earth. You're still old, and frail, you've made your peace, only to have it torn away from you, as you watch day by day as chunks of your flesh just fall off.

    There is a huge difference from being saved from a fatal blow in combat and having your corpse defiled. Having everything about the end of your life ruined. Invalidated.
     
  7. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Really... have you looked at either Sylvanas or Lillian Voss? They both have a vast range of emotions, Sylvanas still loves her sisters more than anything, which is observable at multiple locations, of the top of my head we have when she's given Alleria's locket in TBC and second in the book War Crimes where she runs into Vereesa multiple times. She also reacts to her family's bow if you run into her wielding it. Lilian Voss on the other hand is a character who is centric around the entire story of Tirisfal Glades, if you're interested you can get a free WoW account and check her story out.

    I try to see any who is miserable, we have Sylvanas though her sadness comes not from being undead but rather from having lost everything, her home, her people and her family. I would say having rotting flesh seems rather small in comparison, and as for her being ugly... I mean lets be honest here:

    [​IMG]

    Do we have anyone else, well Nathanos, I mean once again, dead family, home burnt down, no one left. While I don't say I'd like the appearance if I were in Nathanos's boots, that would not be my main issue. That to me seems like the main issue, everyone we know except for Lilian Voss were resurrected by the Lich King, forced into slavery and then watch the people they loved and cared for die. No shit, I'd feel somewhat depressed too. And once again back to Lilian Voss, when first encountered with her state she was in denial, then she got depressed and eventually we see her come to terms with what she is and she sets out to help others. She stops the Scarlet Crusade, the minions of the Lich King and protects the citizens of Draenor. See it anyway you like but to her, beeing undead is a gift, or at least that's how she has used it, like a gift.

    I think your failing though is a misunderstanding between cause and duality. You think Sylvanas and Nathanos are miserable simply because they're undead. Does it not seem more likely to be because they lost all they cared about, Nathanos's family is dead and Vereesa who Sylvanas loves deeply now resents her sister. Sylvanas has more reason than anyone to be unhappy, she was tortured in unspeakable ways by Arthas, was forced to kill her own people, tries to give others like her a home and is encounter by nothing but hatred and distrust, no shit she's unhappy, I'd be too.

    But that's just a few examples of many others one additional example's this, "Her pact with the Val'kyr had saved her that day, a fact for which he was selfishly grateful." Nathanos is still obviously in love with Sylvanas, rather big emotion right there wouldn't you say? We also have this moment, "The power of the Val'kyr will preserve my body for ages to come. Your once-human form, like those of my other Forsaken, will not enjoy such longevity. I would prevent your decay, spare you the pain I experienced when…" Now if that's not emotion, to seek to protect others from harm. And this perfectly answers that other misconception of yours:

    Their bodies aren't going to decay away into nothing any more, thanks to the Val'kyr.

    This seems to be the meat of your argument isn't it, the difference between a priest resurrecting you and a val'kyr is that the priest will make you look more attractive? Despite your view, being unattractive isn't the end of the world. Really, are you trying to compare having a visual disorder with death...

    But lets get down to the other argument you use, what if you want to die and then get resurrected. Yeah that's always a possibility but if you really wanted to die you could still finish the job, nothing forces you to stay in Undercity and serve Sylvanas, Lilian Voss more than proved that. But lets say you actually want to die, first of all if that's the case you wouldn't die of old age, there's a difference between accepting death and desiring it. But lets say we have a person, who wants to remain dead. Is it not better then to revive all of those who got life stolen from them against their will by the horrors of war and let those who died peacefully to get a second chance at life and if they want to reject it, they can reject it. If you really want to commit suicide it isn't hard, trust me, I've tried a few years back... and failed... obviously. Although that had more to do with incompetence than with the task being impossible. If you can't bring yourself to end your life then you really don't want to die.

    But lets turn the table on that metaphor, alright I wanted to die (trust me, committing suicide, if that's what you trully desire is not difficult, in fact it's the easiest decision I've ever made.) If I wanted to dies, truly wanted to and I got resurrected, congratulations I'm now equally as miserable as I was before with my life. I'd still be really happy about being resurrected, why? Because lets say I wanted to die, but my daughter also got killed and she wanted to keep living, I'd be really bloody grateful for the fact that she'd been granted a second chance. Even if it would be a minor inconvenience for me, having to walk to the nearest mountain, jump of a cliff and fall to my death. I mean that would take almost 20 minutes, and if those 20 minutes bought someone else even as much as one extra week of a happy life, then that minor inconvenience would all be worth it. And to disagree with that statement you'd need to be viscously selfish.

    Sorry for the wall of text, it turned out to be a lot more arguing than I was planning.
     
  8. Direfury

    Direfury

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    Go play WoW. Talk to any random grouping of Forsaken and you'll see exactly what I mean. You're touting exceptions to the rule.

    Sylvanas is one of the few whos existance is more than just pain. Her selfishness and desire for immortality is her own deal, but to drag the Forsaken, unwilling alongside her is unreasonable. Look at every instance of Resurrection and then, instances of Reanimation. Resurrection revives someone that has recently fallen, or who has been slain. People that are reanimated suffer psychological changes. Many lose who they were. It's the same as suffering brain damage, and losing a part of yourself.

    Like my neighbor. All it took was falling off a ladder, and he lost his ability to function, after coming out of a coma. Just a few days ago I saw him mowing the parking space on the edge of the road, rather than his lawn. Some people would say they'd rather still be alive after experiencing the same thing, but I don't call that living. To lose who I am. I would rather that incident kill me.

    Many Forsaken characters have to be pushed into accepting their new unlives. They become twisted, or fall into depression. The Forsaken should not be a propogating species. One day, there shouldn't be any left.


    Filing my point down to 'being ugly' versus 'being alive' is downright idiotic. If not dishonest.
     
  9. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Yes because when I talk to random Stormwind guards the instant thought that snaps into my mind is "wow, such a vast range of emotions!" If you expect a vast range of emotions from generic soldiers and shopkeepers you'll be disappointed, by that mentality every single race is nothing but mindless husks. Every orc utters something about fighting, every goblin say "time is money" and every night elf is a hard core devout to Elune. You can't use the bland nature of 12 year old voice acting, when voice acting was basically not a thing in WoW as proof that there's no emotion.

    What are you basing that on, I can get that you'd say Nathanos is special due to his pre-established relation to Sylvanas, but Lilian Voss, why would she be special? Wouldn't it rather seem like you're using outdated voice acting to push an already established agenda. I bring up several examples using Nathanos, Sylvanas and Lilian Voss and you use one kind of half-arsed excuse.

    When were they unwilling, give me one example that her people were unwilling and she forced their hands?

    Alright, so I want to ask where are you're getting the idea of reanimation. I'm guessing you'll mention Silverpine forest where she resurrects a bunch of dead humans and they become undead. It seems rather unlikely that she'd want to force the rotting process only to then reverse it using the val'kyrs. The reason they used human models for the dead instead of undead was probably because otherwise players would be lost and just think she was resurrecting some of her dead soldiers. I doubt she ever forced the rotting, because give me one reason why she would?

    It feels like I'm faced against the argument "gulty until proven innocent." Which is rather difficult to argue against, I could just as easily say that Varian has been working with the Old Gods his entire life because Yogg-Saron ordered the assassination of Varians father and the Old Gods claim that his son is now their pawn and you could do nothing to disprove that either.

    Which character lands in a deep depression exactly? Is it Lilian Voss, because all she had was denial and anxiety for about 2 hours of questing, I wouldn't exactly call that a full blown depression.

    Maybe it's poor articulation or bad reception on my part but you do focus a lot on visual appearance:

    (This one as I established is not only visual centric, but also false, they're not decaying thanks to the val'kyrs.)
    (Also inaccurate she doesn't force your body to rot she's just unable to reverse the process.)
     
  10. Direfury

    Direfury

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    Try Brill. Do a few quests. It's literally right there in your face when you start a character. I'm talking about the masses, not some unique case from a questline.
     
  11. Razosh

    Razosh

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    No you're right, they don't exchange a lot of emotions, and I do like you doing some research but here's the issue, you only did half the research. No the Forsaken don't exchange a large range of emotions in their quest dialogues, but neither does ANY other race. Lets compare Brill to the human starting zone, Northshire, in this town we also find a bunch of quests and none really convey any emotions, case and point:

    [B]Investigate Echo Ridge:[/B]


    <name>, my scouts tell me that the kobold infestation is larger than we had thought. A group of kobold workers has camped near the Echo Ridge Mine to the north.

    Go to the mine and remove them. We know there are at least 10. Kill them, see if there are more, then report back to me.


    I really feel the warmth and emotion in that dialogue. And this is the essential flaw, every minor quest is not going to contain in it a life story, Blizzard knows that to reach max level a character needs to complete over 1,000 quests so players aren't going to either care or remember about these personal details and that's why quest dialogue is bare bones. Lets take my character as an example: Razosh - WoW

    My character, Razosh, has completed over 3,000 quests (and I did that back in Cata, at this point it's at least 4,000+ and probably even 5,000) And he has on top of that completed over 5,000 daily quests, and that's on ONE charachter, it is quite frankly no reason for Blizzard to put so much effort into their content because no one cares about every single NPC's interaction, that's why so few NPC's, like Voss, Sylvanas, Nathanos, Koltira, Thassarian and Darion (all undead) have feelings.

    But just in case I was selective about that quest here's five more, all from Northshire:

    More quests


    Report to Goldshire:

    <name>, you are a <class> with proven interest in the security of Northsire. You are now tasked with the protection of the surrounding Elwynn Forest.

    If you accept this duty, then I have prepared papers that must be delivered to Marshal Dughan in Goldshire. Goldshire lies along the southern road, past the border gates.

    Brotherhood of Tieves:

    Recently, a new group of thieves has been hanging around Northshire. They call themselves the Defias Brotherhood, and have been seen across the river to the east.

    I don't know what they're up to, but I'm sure it's not good! Bring me the bandanas they wear, and I'll reward you with a weapon.

    Bounty On Garrick Padfoot:

    Garrick Padfoot - a cutthroat who's plagued our farmers and merchants for weeks - was seen at a shack near the vineyards, which lies east of the Abbey and across the bridge. Bring me the villain's head, and earn his bounty!

    But be wary, <name>. Garrick has gathered a gang of thugs around him. He will not be an easy man to reach.

    Eagan Peltskinner:

    Eagan Peltskinner is looking for someone to hunt wolves for him. That's good news, because we're seeing a lot more wolves in Northshire Valley lately.

    If you're interested then speak with Eagan. He's around the side of the abbey, to the left.

    Skirmish at Echo Ridge:

    Your previous investigations are proof that the Echo Ridge Mine needs purging. Return to the mine and help clear it of kobolds.

    Waste no time, <name>. The longer the kobolds are left unmolested in the mine, the deeper a foothold they gain in Northshire.


    That's half a dozen examples I've given you right there all from one city so the argument "exception to the rule" is not really applicable any more. Obviously most undead quests are bare bones that's how every race has it. And yes every now and again we also have human quests where they mention friends or talk about remorse but just the same way a good portion of the undead story line centres around Lillian Voss and her coming to terms with her condition. Or Sylvanas Windrunner attempting to preserve her people or even something as small as a slightly unintelligent undead in Hillsbrad who seeks adventure.


    One argument that could be used against the forsaken is that they use what in modern western view is a very evil form of weapon, biological warfare. What they do is they infect their enemies with plagues in order to kill them. And by most modern western standards yes, this is wrong but does that make them evil? If that's the case every single soldier who ever served in a medieval army could also be branded evil because infecting your enemies was common ground during the medieval period. To not bore you I'll stick to one example, the siege of Crimea. During the siege of Crimea the Mongol Empire, rather than letting the enemies starve out catapulted in dead bodies infected with the plague inside the castle walls. This effectively infected the population and won the Mongols the siege.

    While we like to think of medieval Europe as knights in shining armour fighting one another for nothing but honour this is not how the vast majority of battles played out and in fact, the combat style of the forsaken is far more historically represented than any other race. And this is what I like about the forsaken, they are not over romanticised like many other races often or mostly are. So does the fact that the forsaken race is historically representative make them devoid of any emotion? Just like not every Mongol was not a hallow husk inside, neither is every forsaken.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  12. Direfury

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    You know, I actually caught an episode of American Dad sometime last night that should clearly illustrate my point, since you seem to be just missing it. The episode is "Stan's Best Friend".

    When I reference the immorality of Sylvanas' actions, I'm citing the examples of civilians among the Forsaken. Innkeepers, mournful dead, those who realize the nightmare their immortality is, outlasting their families. Their children. Many of these bystanders display a coldness to them that, as we very well see in Brill, is a front. Another example is the woman staying in the upper floor of the Inn there, who practically begs you to help her stitch together a blanket, to lessen the unbearable cold she is feeling.

    I'm not talking about the militant Forsaken. Not the players. Not Sylvanas. Not Putress. Those who've not taken up arms, and instead, live broken unlives, tormented by their situations. As I first stated, my point applies to them, not the warriors, or those who've found new purpose. For the innocent, they had no say in being raised into undeath, and many give off a sense that they feel that suicide would be pointless. They fear being raised again.

    I largely agree with whatever else Sylvanas gets upto, especially as a representative of the Horde, but my concern is for the innocent bystanders she raises. Especially if they're raised as slaves, like those under the Lich King's domination. If there is a large Forsaken population, it should consist only of those Warriors I mentioned. People who have an enduring spirit.

    But that's it. Other than the living who expressly submit to being raised after death, the Forsaken should not be growing its numbers. It's not a race, it's a condition. Like a Leper trying to spread Leprosy, thinking that Lepers are their own people.

    Too many innocent people are caught up in Sylvanas' attempts to bolster their numbers. People like that shivering, suffering woman I mentioned.
     
  13. I haven't read everything you two have posted yet, so I'll address the question in the title. I think everything she's been doing after she was brought back by the val'kyr was about her quest for immortality.

    Since Arthas is dead, she basically has no purpose, so she probably just wants to avoid hell that val'kyr brought her back from. The forsaken are just means to an end, which is why she wants their numbers increased. They are just useful idiots as far as I'm concerned.
    I don't know how she manages to convince them to do her dirty work, but the fact that so many hate them kinda helps because it allows Sylvanas to pull the victim card in a way, like boo hoo they don't allow us to exist.
    I don't know if she would go for outright mind control, as it would piss off the Horde. I'm not familiar with the latest take on this though.

    Anyway, I don't think morality is a big concern for her. She tells people what they need to hear. Warriors or not, they are all part of her war machine. She's little more than a parasite.
     
  14. Direfury

    Direfury

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    That's pretty well in line with my point. She drags the whole of the Forsaken along with her. If her quest was one she undertook alone, I wouldn't have a single issue with what she's doing.
     
  15. Razosh

    Razosh

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    It's an interesting opinion, I somewhat doubt that appearances is the only thing preventing her from doing monstrous acts, prior to TBC she supplied the blood elves with resources even when there was no direct reason to do so. They did not trust her but she kept offering supplies and troops anyway, out of what the narrator calls "love of her people". During TBC she shows that she still cares deeply for Alleria and during War Crimes she shows trust and love towards Vereesa even though her sisters stance against her has been less than pleasant. To say that she wasn't transformed in massively negative way in death would be a lie, it would also be a lie to sate that she's not a vastly different person.

    But seeing the affection she shows to both her sisters and to the people of Quel'Thalas I think your view that "Anyway, I don't think morality is a big concern for her" is a bit extreme. While she is, to say the least, a broken woman she still retains aspects of her past self. And I don't know how many times I need to state this but I'm not trying to say that she fits strictly into a good person frame, she's a person who constantly in a grey area and mostly has a tendency for being more bad than good.

    Yeah it's true, during her war against the Lich King she did pull her people and the citizens of Quel'Thalas too far. But it is worth mentioning that while her actions were lets just say less than ideal during the invasion of Northrend at a few occasions, the people she brings are volunteers, at least as far as our knowledge reaches. Case and point the Lor'Themar Theron short story.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  16. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    I would say she is chaotic good. She certainly is not an Archimonde, Diablo or Amon but neither is she an Uther, Tyrael or Raynor. She might cause ruin and suffering to achieve her aims but her aims are that of survival and sticking together. The horde is still running strong with a large diversity after all.

    Part of the problem is meant to be on running tensions between Alliance and Horde. She used to be part of the alliance before her conversion during Warcraft III. One can bet it still pains her deep down what the Alliance continues to think of her however despite that she will keep on going.
     
  17. Also, @Razosh, mentioned those death knights. Most of them have dedicated themselves to protecting the people they were forced to slaughter under the Lich King. That's what they have dedicated their undead existence to. They feel guilt and want redemption before they retire for good. They want to give back.

    And those dialogues may be bland, but they serve their purpose. You don't want to swarm the new players with walls of text. As far as I'm concerned, they're enough to deliver a point, give you simple directions, and give you an insight to people's mentality. Like people at Northshire. You see them busy trying to keep things together, and since you (the adventurer) are looking for work, they don't see you as a hero immidiately, so they tell you what you need to know to complete your contract. They sure as hell won't share their feelings with someone they've just met. That's the way I see it.

    The fact that she loves her sisters means absolutely nothing. She's still doing what she's doing, and that doesn't excuse her or make her less evil. Also, didn't she ask for favors after helping them with Quel'thalas? Her motives were obvious.

    @Dr Super Good
    She sees the Horde as another tool. I'm shocked Vol'jin and the other let her become warchief. Cairne's son was a better option and he's more respected by his peers. As for Vol'jin, I'll attribute it to the blood loss. The others will likely grow more impatient over time.

    If she gave a damn about the Alliance, she would have returned Lordaeron and stopped resurrecting their citizens for her army.
     
  18. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Well lets not forget that what probably pains her the most is how irrationally aggressive the humans were. I know many of us like to think of Garithos as an extreme and he was, but shreds of his racism was sunk deep in the Alliance. The war between the Horde and the Alliance (in WoW, not WC1) started because the Horde started expanding outwards into Ashenvale and Altarec. The reason why is that they had no choice. Durotar couldn't support the orcish population and while I have my disagreements with Garrosh, Doomhammer, Blackhand and Grommash Thrall was always friendly. He even was willing to work with the Alliance to stop Archimonde and even after the two remained friends.

    Jaina tried to make peace but she couldn't as the Alliance members were not willing to cede the land the orcs needed to survive. Instead of offering to share their lands with the Horde they instead decided to kill or be killed. For Sylvanas this was probably tough for several reasons, her forsaken needed the land previously owned by the Menethil line in order to survive and then the fact that the humans had a distrust for any undead, she had probably no other choice than to join the Horde in the as the Alliance was always going to fight the forsaken simply based on the fact that she's undead.

    No you're correct you don't, but I also see a lack of any text anywhere that say that:

    While it is true that there's two voice actors, one male and one female who fill in a generic role, and true they don't really say a lot of positive things. The thing is, any time that we've had an extensive look into the personality and/or life of a member of the forsaken their lives are not as simple or generic as those voice lines would indicate. And it's also worth mentioning that Sylvanas has retained some personality, despite being tormented worse than any other of the Forsaken, so why wouldn't the other also have personalities.

    Then there's also the issue with the undead born after the Cataclysm, are they the same as the forsaken born before, because they were never enslaved or tormented by the Lich King. And once again I'm not saying Sylvanas is good, I'm saying that you can't fit her into a box of good and evil because she's such a deeply troubled character. What I'm not a fan of is the over-simplification that Direfury results to in among other things the quote I just gave. I have acknowledged

    While the voice lines certainly aren't nothing don't get me wrong they're also not an absolute authority that rolls over anything Blizzard may state afterwards. If you could accompany the voice lines with something they may hold some actual authority but if that is your only argument it doesn't really hold up against several stories regarding Sylvanas, Nathanos, Lillian Voss, Thassarian, Koltira and Darion. I could cite a number of different sources like the Death Knight class quests and order hall quests, Sylvanas's short story, the Sunwell commic, War Crimes, the dark mirror short story and others and my statement was that compared to that list, 12 year old voice lines that were made to be overly generic aren't really legitimate.

    It kind of did in the context of this statement:

    It proves that she does act based on a moral code at least at certain times and that your statement is at least not 100% accurate. You also missed the second half of that argument, I also said that when you combine that with the fact that she supported the people of Quel'Thalas in their hour of need when she stood to gain nothing for it, it is hard to deny that she doesn't work for the benefit of her people. One could however question whether or not her view of what's best for her people is accurate or not.

    I however made no statement like this:

    No, I don't excuse her actions in fact as I've said myself:

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    And where would she and her people live, she'd be hounded by the Alliance no matter what she did based on only the fact that she's undead.
     
  19. Direfury

    Direfury

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    You keep missing the point. Warcraft is more than just WoW. More than just the lines delivered by NPC's. I'm talking generally.

    Basically, you're citing a single scene of a show, and only that. Not the logical outcome. Not the implication.

    You're talking about the scene past the 1:11 mark. He just came out of the bathroom. What you're not getting was the implication. The attempted rape that just went on.


    How do you not get that not every single Forsaken is going to rise from the dead and be like "MAN, FUCK the Alliance!"? You keep going on about the specific exceptions that have nothing to do with the point. The ones with purpose, or who've embraced what they've become are of no concern. Innocent bystanders are.

    It's like saying that its fine to just throw a grenade at someone, and then not understanding that there is collateral damage. Go looking. You'll find plenty of collateral among the shopkeepers, the innkeepers, the villagers. Not among the Deathguard, the Apothecaries.
     
  20. @Razosh
    The Garithos thing impacted the living Blood Elves. Let's not forget what she later did to Garithos and his men.
    And now you bring up that arguement that the alliance could've just avoided conflict if they just gave up some of their lands for the Horde to populate. Why would Alliance think assume the Horde would just turn friendly all of a sudden? Not everyone was at Mount Hyjal, and even that peace was later broken.
    As far as Alliance is concerned, the Horde came out of the blue to their lands and started massacring the people (talking about the first war). They wanted to rule over the world, starting with the eastern continent, so why would alliance blindly trust them? Because Thrall fled to Kalimdor in instead of staying on the eastern continent? He would be dead if he'd stayed. Nothing suggests there would be any change of heart, and even so, the good deeds don't wash away the bad ones. Genocide still occurred in the first and seconds war.

    But back to the point. Let's be honest, the forsaken are a bunch of rotting corpses. They could live anywhere, but they felt entitled to the great capital of Lordaeron. They were bound to stir things up with the alliance. I don't think you understand how much people care about the land they, and their allies live in. Referring to my point about the Horde, the conditions have to be quite extreme for someone to give up their lands willingly, especially to the hated enemy.

    Your main arguments are that, unlike what @Direfury said, there are those who don't hate being undead, to put it simply, and that's she occasionally shows she has a moral code and is emotionally conflicted.

    I'll just try to tell you what Direfury told you like five times already. You keep clinging on to those few examples, the exceptions to the rule. The fact remains that most others just exist to feed her war machine. Deprived of most mortal characteristics, I wouldn't be surprised if most of them became dangerous sociopaths.
    To a degree, I blame the Forsaken as well. I feel like most of them don't have the guts to end their lives, and allow themselves to be used by Sylvanas for her selfish goals.

    The next point about her supposed moral code is just funny. It doesn't matter if she uses some kind of moral code on a whim, if she's a genocidal maniac 80% of the time. Her feelings are irrelevant. It's what she does that counts. Her actions make her evil, not her intentions. If anything, her wavy moral code only proves how unstable she is.

    And I did refer to you point about Quel'thalas in the previous reply. She helped them for future favors. Even if she did it out of goodness of her heart, it doesn't change a thing. Like I said before, good deeds don't wash away the bad ones. In her case especially, since evil deeds far outweigh the good ones.

    Jesus, I just wrote a damn novel here haha