@Razosh
I meant they purposefully chose an important Alliance capital for their home, which was bound to cause trouble.
And your assumption is that she did that to start a war with the Alliance rather than picking that spot because it was a strategic asset and that it was the home to many of her comrades, what are you basing that on? I'm not being accusatory at all it's a genuine question, if that is what you believe, if I didn't misinterpret you, why would you believe her to want a war? This was prior to her being able to resurrect people so it makes no sense to start a war.
Sylvanas knew that, and this statement was a reply to what was said about Sylvanas caring or feeling bad for the Alliance.
No wonder I was confused as I never said she felt sympathy for the Alliance (other than for her sister(s) as well as possibly the high elves), what I said was:
Well lets not forget that what probably pains her the most is how irrationally aggressive the humans were. I know many of us like to think of Garithos as an extreme and he was, but shreds of his racism was sunk deep in the Alliance.
I somewhat doubt Sylvanas has a lot of sympathy for the humans especially after their prince came in and did unspeakable things to her. I also said that she doesn't attack the Argent Crusade not for love of Tirion or his men but because her people would pay the price for that war.
It doesn't really matter where they would live, I was just saying what are the consequences of them chosing to inhabit Lordaeron.
Why should the undead inherit Lordaeron when there's living Alliance with a claim to those lands. Those people died. The fact that they came back, and used to live there means little.
It means a great f-ing deal, they're just as alive as any human, the fact that they have rotting skin does not make them objects and tools to just be ignored. This is exactly what is explored during the entire quest line of Tirisfal Glades, Lillian Voss runs and tries to find her father after she becomes an undead. She says that he will make everything alright and that he will accept her, his daughter for what she is. But when her father instead orders her execution Lilian lashes out in rage killing her father who wants her dead. The undea still have emotions as we clearly see time and again and these emotions are not to be laughed at they are also not less worth than a human woman. If anything I'd say she's a far better person than lets say her father and would argue that life is actually worth more than his.
It's natural that the Alliance opposes the undead who are currently in Lordaeron.
Natural, no, absolutely no. Is it understandable and predictable, yes, but understandable and acceptable are far from the same thing.
The Forsaken wouldn't be giving up Lordaeron, as they don't really have a solid claim to it in the first place. Some of them use to live there in life, true, but that doesn't give them the right to settle there.
Yes it does.
Yes they are. (Sometimes this feels like arguing with someone from the NSDAP.)
they're just husks of what they used to be.
I see this whole thing as Sylvanas trying to convince them that this new state is the new normal, and to give them something to fight for. An illusion of belonging somewhere.
This is so weird because sometimes like these you admit that they have feelings, and then you go around and say they are illegitimate or less valuable...
They can't have kids, families.
Neither can women over the age of 50 but I don't suggest we go around killing all of them. Having kids and leading a happy and fulfilling life is not always the same thing, look at Bill Maher for instance. As for families they can still have those Sylvanas as an example has two sisters and three nephews and even then Lilian or Sylvanas could always marry someone if they wanted to and extend their family through that method.
Lordaeron is rotting even further in their hands.
Is it? I would argue that the plaugelands have gotten better.
It's wasted on the undead, with land being a comodity, both here and in real life.
Wait, we have undead in real life, why was I not informed. You keep comparing them to the dead for some reason and it's not an accurate comparison when they walk, talk and have feelings.
They are not normal, they are an anomaly.
Reminds me of what people used to say about homosexuals.
I've stopped talking about those voice line since the first post.
It's a bit difficult to understand as you've failed to give any other concrete example, you just say "in general" which means nothing.
I was talking of how the Forsaken have realistically turned out to be,
So am I, looking at the characters we've seen in depth, like Koltira, Thassarian, Darion, Dumass, Sylvanas, Lilian, Nathanos, Annhylde, Whitemane and Lydon. That's 10 examples right there of the top of my head, I'd say that fairly freekin' general. And yes, while Lydon suffers from depression (and that's kind of why I brought him up) he's far from emotionless, the fact that he's depressed does not render his life meaningless. When Sylvanas first encountered the alchemist she won him over by appealing to his emotions.
I don't understand, what is this defense? All these thing even you've confirmed are not enough for her to be considered evil?
Evil in my opinion is someone who kills or inflicts pain simply for the purpose of inflicting pain, this is where Lydon as I mentioned earlier fits in, he wants to hurt the living simply because he hates them, this makes him into an evil forsaken, no doubt. Sylvanas on the other hand is more difficult, she never triggered the war between the Horde and the Alliance, as we've seen seen peaceful human settlements can live in Lordaeron without fear, the Argent Dawn has been there since vanilla so to say that her ambition is never ending war and chaos or that she targets humans and wants to slay or hurt them simply because they're humans is absolutely untrue, she even saved Varian's life, rather than allowing him to die and then bringing him back as a forsaken.
And yes while a few forsaken are evil like Lydon, and orcs like Garrosh there are also humans like Varian Wrynn, especially in his early rule. In his later years Varian did soften thanks to in particular his son Anduin. But if you look at Varian's early reign he wanted nothing but to slay orcs for his personal vendetta, look no further than the Ulduar trailer to see that. Once again in his later reign, prior to his death Varian changed and mostly gave up on his evil actions. Lets remember that Varian did not simply want to kill Garrosh but to torture him, as he stops Thrall from killing Garrosh. Then lets look at Sylvanas, does she inflict pain simply out of hate. Other than against Koltira, no, I can't think of a single instance.
But lets bring up Koltira again, because torturing him was
WRONG without a doubt, this however is the one time I find her actions not just unacceptable but the action is not even understandable. That brings us to the question, does this one act of evil make the entire character evil? By that standard Varian would be instantly branded evil based on what he intended to do against Garrosh. Torture is inhumane, and while TV-shows use it as a story element to move the plot along, that has no basis in real life, the torture administered by lets say the U.S has never resulted in any valuable information.
Other than Koltira I've also mentioned a few other circumstances where I've said that her actions are not acceptable but they are understandable, like Gilneas or with the Val'kyrs but those were both also in the interests of her people and that's why I brand them as understandable although not acceptable. I've also said this before that while I don't consider her evil she also seems to always be dancing on the blades edge and it doesn't take a lot for her to in my opinion sway over and become evil because she so often do acts of desperation.
You expect the Alliance to forget and forgive, but they are the victims in most situations, ever since the first war.
There are almost only victims in war, during the first war the orcs were slaves to the Legion, during the second many of them were thrown into concentration camps, during the third the trolls are victims to the naga, the Tauren to the centaurs and all races are victims to the Legion. During WoW the orcs try to find peace have to stray into Alliance land often, just to survive. This starts a new war between the two factions that is not really any sides complete fault. And the list goes on and on, no side consists of only heroes like in a fairy tale. We have good orcs like Thrall and Varrok, good Taurens like Cairne, Baine or Hamuul, good Trolls like Sen'Jin and Vol'Jin and good undead like Lilian.
I'm glad you brought up scourge, because they're not all that different from the Forsaken.
Yes, they're really different. Every forsaken decides to serve Sylvanas, otherwise we wouldn't have seen any of them on Draenor. Those aren't her minions but adventurers who work independently. If Sylvanas was anything like the Lich King she would have never allowed those to exist.
As for the situation with the Horde, again, you see them as an equal to the Alliance. They are still invaders in Azeroth they are the agressors and every beating they get is what they deserve.
I'm starting to be of the opinion that Sylvanas is not the one here who is evil. I find the differences between you and the NSDAP to grow thinner and thinner.
It's not like a lot of orcs and humans died, and they can just decided to call it even. Alliance was hurt FAR more in every war then the Horde. Civialians were slaughtered and kingdoms destroyed,
Wow... just wow... I'm guessing we're completely ignoring the siege of Orgrimmar, Camp Taurajo, the Frostwolf tribe, Quel'Thalas, the Sunreavers, the orcs enslavement to the Legion, the Echo Isles, the concentration camps Thrall and the gang were put in and so on.
I haven't read those books either, so I can only assume you're telling the truth. I don't get where Lor'themar's statement comes from, either.
Are they still butthurt about Garithos? Because I remember one instance when Varian wanted to bring the elves into the Alliance, but Jaina did her thing at Dalaran.
Yeah, they are still buthurt, because if you remember that questline you may also remember what it took to get Lor'Themar to consider the Alliance, he didn't do so until Garrosh started using his people as foder and saw the blood elves as less valuable than orcs.
Another reason why humans of Stormwind would feel compeled to recapture Lordaeron is because they accepted them when the Horde destroyed Stormwind. They fought for that land aswell during the second war. So did the Forsaken, I'm sure, but I stand by my previous point in regards to them.
I think you'll have to rephrase that because your message is absolutely unclear.
