Russia - Ukraine discussion thread

[Nuclear]

Discuss the situation at Russia-Ukraine border.

 

[rulerofiron99]

From what I understand, it's a situation within Eastern Ukraine - not at the Russian-Ukraine border.

I don't buy the Western leaders' claims that it's a Russian invasion. All the videos, images and such that I've seen look like its an actual rebel army. However, I'm sure there there is some Russian involvement. Russian paratroopers were caught in Ukraine, with Russia claiming they "got lost on a patrol", which is obviously BS.

I think that the people in Eastern Ukraine legitimately want independence from Kiev.

The problem with following this conflict is that it's so hard to sift through the lies on either side. On the one hand, the likes of CNN and Reuters belief everything that comes from Kiev, while on the other hand it's RT constantly reporting everything Russia says as fact.

Are there any Ukrainians here that could advise what exactly is going on? Or point to an independent news agency in the region.

 

[Nuclear]

I think one of the biggest problems is that nobody can know what the local population actually wants since it's basically a conflict zone. Like trying to hold an election in the middle of a revolution.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/30/world/europe/ukraine-toll.html?_r=0
And the death toll is now over 2000..

Well more than anything I'd like the violence to stop as soon as possible.. because I'm at the optimal age for conscription and I live next to Russia

 

[rulerofiron99]

Yeah, they need to stop fighting and hold a proper referendum with international observers.

That deathtoll is high and any number of deaths is horrible, but I think if this was an actual Russian invasion, it would be much higher.

I read an interesting statement by a group of former US intellegence officers (can't remember where it was, will link it if I find it), advising Merkel et al to demand more proof from the US. Their opinion was that the US's "proof" of a Russian invasion, namely two satellite photographs of a convoy and a artillery battery, as not compelling enough. They also mention that the evidence is no better than the "evidence" the US presented before its invasion of Iraq - the weapons of mass destruction that were nowhere to be found.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

You're right about that, some ukrainians do want independence from Kiev. Why? Well most of the western nations don't realise that not all ukrainians think the same. There is also a religion devision. Western catholic part is feels closer to europe, while the eastern, orthodox christian part, feels closer to Russia.
I agree, the conflict should end soon, but it's not that easy.

 

[gorillabull]

did everyone forget that it was ukrainian rebels that shot down flight mh17 yea? ok

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Maybe they're going to pin that one on Russia aswell...

 

[jonhysone]

All I know is that there is a problem between them, I never went far to know more.

 

[rulerofiron99]

did everyone forget that it was ukrainian rebels that shot down flight mh17 yea? ok

That was never confirmed. It was probably the rebels mistaking it for a government military plane.

 

[Boris_Spider]

Situation: Bad
Why: People have reached the point that they're so bored/stressed/upset/crazy/sane they must start fights...

War is a conflict which determines not who is right, but who is left.

//\\==//\\

 

[VeljkoM]

You're right about that, some ukrainians do want independence from Kiev. Why? Well most of the western nations don't realise that not all ukrainians think the same. There is also a religion devision. Western catholic part is feels closer to europe, while the eastern, orthodox christian part, feels closer to Russia.
I agree, the conflict should end soon, but it's not that easy.

Just want to point out that that all Ukrainians are orthodox, there is no catholic-orthodox division, you are comparing it to much to Yugoslavia issue (not that there are no similarities.) Now the actually difference is that west Ukrain was least under Russian influence through out history and was more under Austrian influence. Also if you recall you'll remember that in west (the West Ukraine not the whole west-north/central half) they started the first revolts against democratically elected president (not saying he was a good choice but he did win) and then west established their rule which then was not received well by south and east Ukrain and then started talks of separatism and federalization of Ukraine etc while Russia of course supports the pro-russian aligned Ukrainians and well Russians that lived there since some of those territories had short history as part of Ukraine at all. And somewhere you can add that west Ukrainians are led by once social-nationalistic party Svoboda though I have no idea how much power they really have.

But honestly I am wiling to bet that real majority of Ukrainaians did not care what the protesters from west or the separatist from south and east wanted but now nation is being fragmented and dragged in to senseless brother killing civil war. I don't want to pretend I know anymore what is going on really there I just feel that real reasons are probably extremely selfish Ukrainians and influenced by outer factors from West and Russia. What ever happens Ukrainian people lose.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Yes, most of them are, but there are different types of orthodox chirstianity, some groups acknowledge Pope (even though he's a catholic leader) as their leader, and other acknowledge their Patriarch. That is not very small difference if you're one of them. That's why the guy who temporarily preformed the duty of Ukrainian president went to Vatican for blessing.

Agreed, they'll be the losers of this "war", but fortunately, there is always someone from aside that will benefit from their loss.

 

[Nuclear]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ueless-because-truth-horrible-moscow-ilovaysk

 

[VeljkoM]

There are Eastern Catholics yes but there are far more Orthodox of Kiev Patriarchy and Moscow patriarchy. Think that there is bigger issue between Ukrainians that want their own Orthodox Church instead of being under Moscow. Oh and we could add also Autocephalous Orthodox Church. And then again seems the largest group in the end are simply not religious.

I was wrong though when I said all are orthodox.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ueless-because-truth-horrible-moscow-ilovaysk

Probably the most accurate type of information we are going to receive.

 

[Justicebringer]

did everyone forget that it was ukrainian rebels that shot down flight mh17 yea? ok

Exactly.
Sanctions against Russia without any single evidence
of russian rebels or russians shot the airplain, but
based on an opinion.

You think they shot it?
Just think about it, for what a bloody reason would Russians shoot
a random airplane. This is madness.
The only convincing scenario is Ukraine shot it, and
the US and its buddies knew that if they say it so many times,
people will just believe Russia is the guilty. So they can make
sanctions against them. And it worked oh my godness....

 

[rulerofiron99]

On July 15, BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) formed the New Development Bank. Why is this significant? The US Dollar is the world's reserve currency. Much of the US's economic power (and the dollar's value) is because it is the reserve currency, used by all banks around the world. This development bank seeks to change that, and is a competitor to the World Bank. (Initially it will operate using Dollars, but that will change over time, since it's an unnecessary middle-man.)

Two days later, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down.

I try to avoid conspiracy theories and I'd usually chalk this up to a coincidence, but history has another recent example of what happens when you try to break out of the USD:

In 2000, Iraq got the go-ahead from the UN to sell its oil in Euros.

In 2001, the US invaded Iraq over false claims of weapons of mass destruction.

The US can't exactly invade Russia, so sanctions it is.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Sanctions are counter productive, and will only make Russia more economically independent. Take a Germany for example, they export a lot of goods to Russia, and they don't want to give up on such a great amount of money, a lot of germans would lose their jobs. I think sanctions are only there to show that UN is not sitting on it's hands. They are far from invading Russia.

 

[Heinvers]

They are far from invading Russia.

It's so far fetched to even think that someone would try to invade the great Russian bear's home, not even the U.S would be that foolish.

 

[Nuclear]

You think they shot it?
Just think about it, for what a bloody reason would Russians shoot
a random airplane.

Because the Ukrainian military uses planes against the rebels, while the rebels don't have an air force, but are known to shoot down Ukrainian fighter jets. So if you bothered to just think for a while, it becomes clear that the rebels have every reason to shoot down airplanes in their vicinity, while the Ukrainians don't have. And one could assume that the incompetence required for shooting down a civilian aircraft can be expected from a bunch of rebels rather than from a professional army.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Bunch of rebels... not really, there are a lot of veterans among those who volunteered to join them, including russian cossacks. Using your logic, if they are just a bunch of rebels, how would they even know how to use anti-aircraft? It's not as simple as it seems.

 

[VeljkoM]

Being a rebel doesn't automatically mean that they don't have prior military training (and think there is no point to pretend that russians aren't involved). But anyway both armies are equally capable of screwing up, they are still humans. Still his main point was that Ukrainian army uses planes while rebels don't so logically it is more probable that side that suffers more from planes would be more likely to shot them down. That is if we accept that it was a mistake and not conspiracy plan.

 

[Nuclear]

You're right, the incompetence part probably doesn't apply to using the anti-aircraft weaponry itself, the system probably requires an expert to operate.

Though I'd like to remind that the plane was moving from west to east, so it would be logical for the rebels to assume that it's an Ukrainian jet.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Could be, but some say that it was shot on purpose and that they knew what they were shooting. That's apsurde. Even if they did, they probably thought that it was, like you said, an Ukrainian jet. It's war, thing like that happend, unfortunately. What benefit would they have from shooting a civ jet?

 

[Aeroblyctos]

Europe should've sanctioned USA when there was Iraq war.

 

[rulerofiron99]

Europe should've sanctioned USA when there was Iraq war.

Couldn't agree more.

EU should also have sanctioned Israel over the recent war, and the use of illegal weapons in 2008, and so on. They're currently trying to make a law that requires goods produced in occupied Palestine to be labelled as such, but as expected it's meeting fierce opposition.

 

[Justicebringer]

Because the Ukrainian military uses planes against the rebels, while the rebels don't have an air force, but are known to shoot down Ukrainian fighter jets. So if you bothered to just think for a while, it becomes clear that the rebels have every reason to shoot down airplanes in their vicinity, while the Ukrainians don't have. And one could assume that the incompetence required for shooting down a civilian aircraft can be expected from a bunch of rebels rather than from a professional army.

Oh please!
Could you consider anything to be true what your media dont tell you so?
And if its true? What does it have to do with Russia eh?
By that logic America should have been sanctioned because of helping Syrian rebels
whom committed far more crimes against humanity than the Ukranian rebels.

 

[Nuclear]

I've never claimed that Russians shot it down though (the separatists did), I'm not sure anyone in this thread has. However the separatists are Russian backed and Russia is the main instigator in the whole thing.

And the sanctions aren't in place just for shooting down a plane, they're in place for violating the sovereignty of another nation. And don't give me bullshit about Russia's involvement being "just an opinion" without any evidence.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

UN is equally involved in murdering civilians, not just here, but all over the world.
EDIT: Of course the Russians are involved, some these events are taking place near their borders. Their civilians who live in Ukraine are also getting killed there.

 

[VeljkoM]

He is just saying: "plane came from west, Ukrainian army from west uses planes, rebels shot planes coming from west", it is rather just logical conclusion. You could counter it by saying that Ukrainians precisely for this reason shot down the airplane to frame rebels. But that is all just speculation.

And yes America should have been sanctioned for helping, aiding and outright overthrowing governments. I am sure someone better informed then me could offer you examples how USA aided at one point almost every terrorist/dictator in middle east when it was benefiting them. But that is point for some other topic.

Oh and main instigators are rather western Ukrainians who started the whole mess thus creating problems between Ukrainians. And regarding sovereignty Russian can counter it by saying that those territories were longer under Russian Empire and were given to Ukraine.

Map

 

[Aeroblyctos]

I've never claimed that Russians shot it down though (the separatists did), I'm not sure anyone in this thread has. However the separatists are Russian backed and Russia is the main instigator in the whole thing.

Even so they're ukrainians so in other word Ukraine did shoot the plane down.

 

[Nuclear]

You could say that Ukrainians shot it down, but saying "Ukraine" implies government involvement.

And regarding sovereignty Russian can counter it by saying that those territories were longer under Russian Empire and were given to Ukraine.

Measuring a country's right for independence by looking at old maps is very silly. Besides, sovereignty is usually considered an inherent right of a nation, it's not something that you accumulate by existing for a period of time.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

It's not silly. People lived the once(actual people), and fought for that land. There are still a lot of russians who live there. The world is not always black and white.

 

[VeljkoM]

Some people living in those regions don't seem to want anymore to be part of the government that replaced democratically elected government and made some less popular decisions like making Russian language no longer official.

Those maps also are fairly recent and not "old" (Looking at Crimea) regions have significant Russian population. And yes period of time spent does matter but I honestly don't see Russia and Ukraine as real separate entities besides in political sense.

And I still see it as direct insult how Crimea separation is against Ukraine sovereignty when it was barely decades under Ukraine control, Ukrainians themselves are not overwhelming majority and it was chosen by the people to separate (of course there was foul play). BUT! When this same thing happened in Kosovo West said screw sovereignty. West is really picky.

 

[rulerofiron99]

And I still see it as direct insult how Crimea separation is against Ukraine sovereignty when it was barely decades under Ukraine control, Ukrainians themselves are not overwhelming majority and it was chosen by the people to separate (of course there was foul play). BUT! When this same thing happened in Kosovo West said screw sovereignty. West is really picky.

The Crimean referendum was something like 98% in favour. I'm pretty sure there was some cheating by the pro-Russian side, but with that figure at least 70-80% of the voters were legitimately in favour of it.

The West, Russia, all these big players don't give two sh*ts about sovereignty of human rights. They're just looking out for their national interests without caring about the people that get trampled by their policies and actions.

 

[VeljkoM]

The West, Russia, all these big players don't give two sh*ts about sovereignty of human rights. They're just looking out for their national interests without caring about the people that get trampled by their policies and actions.

Most accurate description of international politics. Just to make it clear I do not support what Russia is doing nor the new Ukrainian Government. As I said in my first post I just feel sorry for innocent people being forced to chose between west and east.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

@rulerofiron99 why would they cheat if they already had 70-80% of voters on their side, like you said?

 

[Nuclear]

Some people living in those regions don't seem to want anymore to be part of the government that replaced democratically elected government and made some less popular decisions like making Russian language no longer official.

So you're saying that the current Ukrainian government is worse and more evil than the previous one? Nice joke, that was funny.

Those maps also are fairly recent and not "old" (Looking at Crimea) regions have significant Russian population.

They're from nearly hundred years ago. If there's still someone from that time alive, they were babies when the separation happened.

And yes period of time spent does matter but I honestly don't see Russia and Ukraine as real separate entities besides in political sense.

So if a nation is young enough, they're free for violation and conquest, because they just aren't established enough? And yes, the political sense is the most important one. Russia is a poor and corrupt country, do you think that Ukrainians should be forced to join Russia just because of history? Really, I find it interesting how the difference in political environment is completely ignored, while it is the most important factor.

I don't buy the "it's the people's will to separate!" argument at all with the heavy Russian military involvement. If people don't support the separation, do you really think they would dare to speak up? Maybe many of them want to join Russia, but we don't know that, nobody does.

 

[Justicebringer]

And the sanctions aren't in place just for shooting down a plane, they're in place for violating the sovereignty of another nation. And don't give me bullshit about Russia's involvement being "just an opinion" without any evidence.

Yes, sure, they are involved. Read it properly:

By that logic America should have been sanctioned because of helping Syrian rebels
whom committed far more crimes against humanity than the Ukranian rebels.

What if they back up rebels? US is doing that officially all the time.
I dont say its good to finance rebels anyway, just the fact that someone is
allowed to do it but.....

I might seems like a hail Russia. Not at all but its at least better than EU-USA and the likes of them
with their terrible, evil policy.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The facts are simple.
Russia, one of the most powerful countries in the world, wants part of Ukraine.
Ukraine leadership is so selfish they do not want to surrender part of Ukraine.

Result is a very one-sided war which Ukraine will lose. If the politicians of Ukraine cared for their people they would have come to some form of agreement without the use of military force, clearly they do not care for their people as they send them off to die against a world super power.

Fact is no one in the world can do anything against Russia. It is a major nuclear might and has one of the largest military budgets. Sure it might not have the USA's cutting edge military technology but they still have improved versions of cold war technology (as demonstrated by their anti-aircraft systems), which are advanced enough that most countries lack equivalent or better.

It is dumb that the EU is even sanctioning Russia. Seeing how they depend critically on them for gas, which Russia will soon start to sell to China instead, so I guess most of Europe will just have to freeze over winter. Again selfish stupid politicians at work not caring about the good of their own people.

 

[VeljkoM]

So you're saying that the current Ukrainian government is worse and more evil than the previous one? Nice joke, that was funny.

Yes I do think national socialist aligned government that takes power illegally is not good. Especially when it starts a civil war because they didn't care about other Ukrainians. West Ukraine does not equal whole Ukraine. The only "good" part is the pro European view but does it mean that just because someone wants to be on the good side of bigger power it doesn't mater if they are bad themselves?

This is not even that original crisis. Like all the other similar situations they will be treated as good guys by west until they outlast their usefulness and then it will be "send the troops to restore democracy!".

They're from nearly hundred years ago. If there's still someone from that time alive, they were babies when the separation happened.

1954 was not really 100 years ago and even so in case of other regions doesn't change that people selfidentified themselves as russians. Was less issue when Ukraine and Russia had good relations.

So if a nation is young enough, they're free for violation and conquest, because they just aren't established enough? And yes, the political sense is the most important one. Russia is a poor and corrupt country, do you think that Ukrainians should be forced to join Russia just because of history? Really, I find it interesting how the difference in political environment is completely ignored, while it is the most important factor.

Ukraine is not young, the gained territories are. Why don't you research more about east slav history, I suggest you start from Kievan Rus. I did not mention anything about conquest being ok and I believe I was clear that I do not support what Russia is doing but doesn't mean they don't have their own reasoning. Does the fact that Russian owned those territories for centuries mean nothing? Do those people there have to say "screw our identity" and accept who ever owns it? Gets ridiculous when you figure out that difference between Russian and Ukrainian is not that big anyway. Besides those "rebels" wanted first federalization of Ukraine, Russia only openly supported Crimea to be annexed.

And honestly fuck the forced political sense, why do East Slavs don't have the right what Italia, Germany, Spain and Great Britain did? Why isn't bad that Piedmont unified Italian peninsula, or Prussia forming the modern Germany? Russia is corrupt but so is every other nation on this world and honestly there is no point in fragmentation. I think in this modern age we should look towards forming larger unities and stop the retarded fragmentation (which tends to happen mostly to nations not aligned to west for "some reason").

Oh and " free for violation and conquest" happens all the time but it is ok when nation that suffer this are "evil". None of the big powers care a bit what is wrong or right, just some have better public relations then others.

I don't buy the "it's the people's will to separate!" argument at all with the heavy Russian military involvement. If people don't support the separation, do you really think they would dare to speak up? Maybe many of them want to join Russia, but we don't know that, nobody does.

Was official voting and results came in, you can equally question voting in your own country too if your candidate loses. Shocking that all that Russian majority didn't want to stay in nation that was suppressing them. Again why is it bad when Russia does this but is it ok when Albanians do it to Kosovo? Double standard.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

fucking russians first you ruin dota2 then cs go now ukraine

quite it already QUIT IT!!

 

[Boris_Spider]

The facts are simple.
Russia, one of the most powerful countries in the world, wants part of Ukraine.
Ukraine leadership is so selfish they do not want to surrender part of Ukraine.

Result is a very one-sided war which Ukraine will lose. If the politicians of Ukraine cared for their people they would have come to some form of agreement without the use of military force, clearly they do not care for their people as they send them off to die against a world super power.

Fact is no one in the world can do anything against Russia. It is a major nuclear might and has one of the largest military budgets. Sure it might not have the USA's cutting edge military technology but they still have improved versions of cold war technology (as demonstrated by their anti-aircraft systems), which are advanced enough that most countries lack equivalent or better.

It is dumb that the EU is even sanctioning Russia. Seeing how they depend critically on them for gas, which Russia will soon start to sell to China instead, so I guess most of Europe will just have to freeze over winter. Again selfish stupid politicians at work not caring about the good of their own people.

1) We're all aware the Russia is doing now what Nazi Germany before WW2 and what the US did while eradicating the native americans & how it initiated a war with Mexico (resulting in Mexico losing half of its territory). Before the US, France, Britain, & Spain behaved like this.

2) No country cares about it's people, they're resources to be exploited (just like fossil fuels & water - they're just far more renewable).

3) So it would be approveable for me to take over your house by threatening to exterminate your neighborhood?

//\\o0//\\

 

[Justicebringer]

We're all aware the Russia is doing now what Nazi Germany before WW2

Why didn't you mention the other superpowers too?

 

[Boris_Spider]

Why didn't you mention the other superpowers too?

1) We're all aware the Russia is doing now what Nazi Germany before WW2 and what the US did while eradicating the native americans & how it initiated a war with Mexico (resulting in Mexico losing half of its territory). Before the US, France, Britain, & Spain behaved like this.

I covered the ones in the last millennia that I know of, are there others? Superpowers like to rewrite history to benefit propaganda - so I may not have the most accurate information.

//\\0o//\\

 

[Dr Super Good]

3) So it would be approveable for me to take over your house by threatening to exterminate your neighborhood?

This has anything to do with this topic?

Most Ukrainians who are opposing Russian rule are doing so purely because they know they will never be part of the EU then and cannot come to the UK for free money. Basically their entire life plan ruined because they might have to work instead of taking it from the UK.

I hope Ukraine is fully taken over by Russia, that way none of those people will ever be in the EU. Come on, go claim Russian benefits instead of UK benefits. We are not a charity even though the EU forces us to be.

 

[Boris_Spider]

This has anything to do with this topic?

Most Ukrainians who are opposing Russian rule are doing so purely because they know they will never be part of the EU then and cannot come to the UK for free money. Basically their entire life plan ruined because they might have to work instead of stealing it from the UK.

It does, though it wasn't as apparent as I thought it was, sorry about that. To clarify:

3) So it would be approveable for me to take over your house by threatening to exterminate your neighborhood?

was a response to

If the politicians of Ukraine cared for their people they would have come to some form of agreement without the use of military force, clearly they do not care for their people as they send them off to die against a world super power.

Russia intimidating Ukraine into submission is no different than what the US has been doing in Iraq & Afghanistan for the last decade or so. People are no more than resources to be exploited for countries living on land that countries want. A country with a better military trying to obtain another country with a lesser military by threatening the inhabitants of the other country is akin to me taking over your neighborhood (you're the head of it) by threatening to destroy it - because I can and I want it now.

There is no "right" action in this 'diplomacy' that can lead to anything good for the people. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss is a good line for what I'm trying to say. I'll refine it if my delivery still sucks.

//\\oo//\\

 

[VeljkoM]

It is really more to secure their traditional sphere of influence and to avoid directly bordering EU. That is why Russia doesn't have to use their full force, there are enough of people who support staying under Russian influence to oppose those that want o be under EU influence. It isn't simple big power invading smaller, it is smaller power trying to change side and big power doesn't welcome that change.

 

[Nuclear]

A fun reminder, Germany did this sort of thing before WWII. Claiming land with the excuse of protecting ethnic Germans of those areas.

>WWIII CONFIRMED?!?!

 

[Boris_Spider]

A fun reminder, Germany did this sort of thing before WWII. Claiming land with the excuse of protecting ethnic Germans of those areas.

>WWIII CONFIRMED?!?!

... I mentioned this already, twice if count me quoting myself...

//\\oO//\\

 

[Nuclear]

Sorry, I didn't read all the replies.