[Solved] Rules for non-hero versions of hero abilities

[Yevhen Snizhko]

I want to copy some abilities:

• non-hero abilities - copies will be hero abilities
• hero abilities - copies will be non-hero abilities

I thought that with such abilities, the non-hero version is equivalent to the level 1 version of a hero version, but I see that some abilities were balanced separately across the years.
I can research this more, but I have some questions in case someone already has answers to them.

Questions:

1. What are general rules for abilities that have hero and non-hero version in core WC3 (both RoC and TFT)?
2. If non-hero versions are not always same as level 1 hero versions, what are general ranges of differences?
3. How do these rules apply for ultimate abilities?

 

[PurgeandFire]

Are you talking about the differences when using the "Hero Ability" toggle in the object editor? (i.e. to switch the ability from being classified as a "hero" ability vs. a unit ability) From what I know, the "Hero Ability" flag mostly just adds additional fields that are relevant to a hero learning the skill (e.g. the "Learn" tooltip/hotkey, required level, etc.). But I don't know of any functional differences. In fact, when you make a custom ability based off another one, the editor only tracks any modifications you make--so if you only flip the "Hero Ability" toggle, none of the actual data (damage, area of effect, etc.) actually changes until you change it manually. So it'll behave just like the original ability.

But perhaps you're talking about the neutral hostile variants, e.g. Death Coil (Death Knight hero) vs. Death Coil (Neutral Hostile)? I don't think there is an exact rule to it, but generally it is tuned to the level of the creep that has it. For example, Death Coil (Neutral Hostile) is tuned like the level 2 version of the hero ability because the unit that has it is a high-level creep: Death Revenant (Level 9). Whereas if you look at Bash (Neutral Hostile 1), it uses a configuration that is even worse than level 1 Bash (Mountain King) because it is mostly used on low level creeps like the Kobold Tunneler (Level 3). Sometimes they'll even make different versions of the same ability even though they have the exact same configuration--just for the option to re-balance it later (e.g. Mana Burn has 3 Neutral Hostile variants with the same configuration).

 

[Uncle]

A note about "Ultimate" abilities, which are the Hero abilities learned at Level 6. These can bypass certain targeting limitations, like Magic Immunity.

This behavior is tied directly to the Level Requirement as far as I understand. But there's a trick to getting this functionality on anything, just change the ability into a Hero ability, set its Required Level to 6, then change it back to a Unit ability. That'll retain the "Ultimate" functionality without actually needing to be a Hero ability.

[Solved] - Magic immunity prevents casting spells

So I have this unit with Spell Immunity (Neutral Hostile) ability, all I want is to properly cast a spell on it. But certain spells, like Wand of Illusion, and Poison Arrows (the active poison arrow, not passive), are prevented to even target that unit. It says "That unit is immune to magic"...

www.hiveworkshop.com

Adding to what Purge said, any classification of Unit can have and cast a Unit, Item, and Hero ability, there are no restrictions there. For example, you could add a Hero ability to a Dummy unit and even increase the Level via triggers and it'll work fine. It just won't use the Hero Skill Menu or Skill Points (abilities added through triggers always work this way). Items are restricted to only using the Unit/Item variants, although you can probably add a Hero ability to them using triggers (1.31+).

I don't think there's a case where an ability functions differently between it's Hero and Non-Hero variant. As far as I understand they're copy and pastes of one another, no different than what you're planning on doing yourself. The devs simply toggled the copy settings from Hero -> Unit or vice versa to make them learnable/unlearnable.

But I have no idea why you'd care about the stat "balance" changes between ability variants, like Storm Bolt (Neutral Hostile) dealing less damage or stunning for a shorter duration. Whatever you're trying to do sounds unnecessary, why can't you just use the Hero ability in the first place? Why is a non-Hero variant even needed?

 

[Yevhen Snizhko]

Are you talking about the differences when using the "Hero Ability" toggle in the object editor? (i.e. to switch the ability from being classified as a "hero" ability vs. a unit ability) From what I know, the "Hero Ability" flag mostly just adds additional fields that are relevant to a hero learning the skill (e.g. the "Learn" tooltip/hotkey, required level, etc.). But I don't know of any functional differences. In fact, when you make a custom ability based off another one, the editor only tracks any modifications you make--so if you only flip the "Hero Ability" toggle, none of the actual data (damage, area of effect, etc.) actually changes until you change it manually. So it'll behave just like the original ability.

But perhaps you're talking about the neutral hostile variants, e.g. Death Coil (Death Knight hero) vs. Death Coil (Neutral Hostile)? I don't think there is an exact rule to it, but generally it is tuned to the level of the creep that has it. For example, Death Coil (Neutral Hostile) is tuned like the level 2 version of the hero ability because the unit that has it is a high-level creep: Death Revenant (Level 9). Whereas if you look at Bash (Neutral Hostile 1), it uses a configuration that is even worse than level 1 Bash (Mountain King) because it is mostly used on low level creeps like the Kobold Tunneler (Level 3). Sometimes they'll even make different versions of the same ability even though they have the exact same configuration--just for the option to re-balance it later (e.g. Mana Burn has 3 Neutral Hostile variants with the same configuration).

1. I am talking about what you describe in second paragraph.
2. Thanks for the detailed answer. I knew about Mana Burn having several identical Neutral Hostile versions. However, I did not know that Death Revenant has an equivalent of level 2 Death Coil, and that Tunneler's Bash is weaker.

 

[Yevhen Snizhko]

A note about "Ultimate" abilities, which are the Hero abilities learned at Level 6. These can bypass certain targeting limitations, like Magic Immunity.

This behavior is tied directly to the Level Requirement as far as I understand. But there's a trick to getting this functionality on anything, just change the ability into a Hero ability, set its Required Level to 6, then change it back to a Unit ability. That'll retain the "Ultimate" functionality without actually needing to be a Hero ability.

[Solved] - Magic immunity prevents casting spells

So I have this unit with Spell Immunity (Neutral Hostile) ability, all I want is to properly cast a spell on it. But certain spells, like Wand of Illusion, and Poison Arrows (the active poison arrow, not passive), are prevented to even target that unit. It says "That unit is immune to magic"...

www.hiveworkshop.com

Adding to what Purge said, any classification of Unit can have and cast a Unit, Item, and Hero ability, there are no restrictions there. For example, you could add a Hero ability to a Dummy unit and even increase the Level via triggers and it'll work fine. It just won't use the Hero Skill Menu or Skill Points (abilities added through triggers always work this way). Items are restricted to only using the Unit/Item variants, although you can probably add a Hero ability to them using triggers (1.31+).

I don't think there's a case where an ability functions differently between it's Hero and Non-Hero variant. As far as I understand they're copy and pastes of one another, no different than what you're planning on doing yourself. The devs simply toggled the copy from Hero -> Unit or vice versa to make them learnable/unlearnable.

But I have no idea why you'd care about the stat "balance" changes between ability variants, like Storm Bolt (Neutral Hostile) dealing less damage or stunning for a shorter duration. Whatever you're trying to do sounds unnecessary, why can't you just use the Hero ability in the first place? Why is a non-Hero variant even needed?

Thanks for the info on non-hero Ultimate tricks.

I want to create non-hero versions of heroes (paladin, death knight, blademaster, firelord, alchemist, etc.), and heroic versions of usual units (footman, priest, shaman, banshee, etc.).

1. Since the object editor does not allow non-hero units to have hero abilities, I'll need to make custom copies of abilities that don't have a Neutral Hostile version (or make a new one, as those seem to have differences compared to hero abilities - see answer by PurgeandFire).
2. I think it would be interesting to have a heroic Priest with increasing levels of Heal, heroic Banshee with increasing levels of Curse, etc. But I'll have to create custom abilities that have several levels.
3. I don't want to add abilities or change their levels through triggers, as I already have a lot of stuff in those, and want to avoid extra triggerworks.

 

[Uncle]

Thanks for the info on non-hero Ultimate tricks.

I want to create non-hero versions of heroes (paladin, death knight, blademaster, firelord, alchemist, etc.), and heroic versions of usual units (footman, priest, shaman, banshee, etc.).

1. Since the object editor does not allow non-hero units to have hero abilities, I'll need to make custom copies of abilities that don't have a Neutral Hostile version (or make a new one, as those seem to have differences compared to hero abilities - see answer by PurgeandFire).
2. I think it would be interesting to have a heroic Priest with increasing levels of Heal, heroic Banshee with increasing levels of Curse, etc. But I'll have to create custom abilities that have several levels.
3. I don't want to add abilities or change their levels through triggers, as I already have a lot of stuff in those, and want to avoid extra triggerworks.

Okay, then it should be as simple as copying and pasting the Hero ability and changing it's category from Hero to Unit. None of the functionality should change.

The Neutral Hostile versions are literally copies of the Hero versions, just with stats balanced around being Level 1 creep abilities.

 

[Yevhen Snizhko]

Okay, then it should be as simple as copying and pasting the Hero ability and changing it's category from Hero to Unit. None of the functionality should change.

The Neutral Hostile versions are literally copies of the Hero versions, just with stats balanced around being Level 1 creep abilities.

As it turns out, they are not all exact copies.
For example, hero Divine Shield is 25 mana, 15/25/35 sec duration, 35/50/65 sec cooldown.
While NH Divine Shield is 125 mana, 10 sec duration, 60 sec cooldown - really weaker than level 1 ability.

I'll probably make the non-hero versions just level 1 for ease of use.
Still, I'll need to compare values for hero abilities to scale new abilities properly.

 

[Uncle]

As it turns out, they are not all exact copies.
For example, hero Divine Shield is 25 mana, 15/25/35 sec duration, 35/50/65 sec cooldown.
While NH Divine Shield is 125 mana, 10 sec duration, 60 sec cooldown - really weaker than level 1 ability.

I'll probably make the non-hero versions just level 1 for ease of use.
Still, I'll need to compare values for hero abilities to scale new abilities properly.

Correct, they aren't exact copies, the devs adjusted some of the existing values. But we were under the impression that you meant extra functionality. For example, a hardcoded "If Ability_Category == Hero then also Stun the enemy" sort of thing.

The easiest way would likely be copying and pasting the Hero abilities and changing them to Unit abilities since they will retain everything important.

 

[Yevhen Snizhko]

Correct, they aren't exact copies, the devs adjusted some of the existing values. But we were under the impression that you meant extra functionality. For example, a hardcoded "If Ability_Category == Hero then also Stun the enemy" sort of thing.

No, this is not something that interests me currently. While I have plans to modify them through triggers, my plans are less ambitious for now.

The easiest way would likely be copying and pasting the Hero abilities and changing them to Unit abilities since they will retain everything important.

Yeah, this part I know. I just wanted to check if there are some rules/conventions that exist (like NH is equivalent to level 1 (which turned out to be not true) or specific multipliers for hero ability based on levels (duration, cooldown, effect scaling)).
I'll do my own research to figure the scaling of abilities.

 

[Uncle]

No, this is not something that interests me currently. While I have plans to modify them through triggers, my plans are less ambitious for now.


Yeah, this part I know. I just wanted to check if there are some rules/conventions that exist (like NH is equivalent to level 1 (which turned out to be not true) or specific multipliers for hero ability based on levels (duration, cooldown, effect scaling)).
I'll do my own research to figure the scaling of abilities.

I'd guess the scaling for NH abilities was basically "What do we think is fair?" and set on a whim. I doubt they used any sort of consistent pattern or formula. Basically: Use smaller numbers because we don't want a creep camp one-shotting your army.

 

[raypack]

I'd guess the scaling for NH abilities was basically "What do we think is fair?" and set on a whim. I doubt they used any sort of consistent pattern or formula. Basically: Use smaller numbers because we don't want a creep camp one-shotting your army.

Lately I haven't been following what changes they've been making, but most neutral hostile creep abilities which heroes have (such as Divine Shield, Entangling Roots etc) have values that the hero abilities originally had back in 2002 (at least before the reforged patches).

For example the Death Knight's Animate Dead ultimate originally did NOT make raised units invulnerable, and mana cost and duration were higher.
When Blizzard decided to make changes to DK's ultimate, that is when the Neutral Hostile version of Animate Dead (which is used by the Death Revenant) became different to DK's Animate Dead.
Countless of other examples exist of this. And the one that you mentioned, @Yevhen Snizhko , that the Death Revenant has the equivalent to a level 2 Death Coil, that is because, I assume, that the Death Revenant is a big creep. Basically a boss creep.