Random suggestion

[chiya]

was thinking around....

1. I noticed that every class have to skill Con and i think it really limits some classes to just go for main stat + Con. My suggestion is to give 5hp per level to characters and giving Con a flat 15hp per point.

This will give 5*50 + 15*25 = 625 bonus hp if con is maxed (right now I think it's around 575 if con is maxed)

this would give player more stat to play without having to stat most of them in Con. Example, some druid would stat Agi for faster healing, more damage and stronger pet, some maybe would still go full Con to play it safe.

2. Does the CD reset from talent is intended to reset items too? I think it's too strong because with some mana pots classes with those talent wont need any point in wisdom to manage his mana.

And i believe in the next update there will be longer boss fight, so maybe it will make people to stat some Wis in order to maintain their spells ready.

3. I heard that Hunter is better in almost all aspect from Sorc (?). Maybe there will be boss that got some kind of non-attacking ethereal summons that debuffs party like draining mana or slowing mspd/aspd/haste or reducing def in an area so having mage in the boss battle would be very helpful in killing the boss. It's non attacking so no need to worry that mage will take the agro.

I also agree that cloth should give more hp than leather. Leather users (hunter, sin, bard) usually go for Agi/Con anyway because they got enough ArP so Str is not really usefull and mana is not really needed for them to have a good DPS, on the other hand, mage need Int/Agi and Mana to maintain good dps (I don't know if Int/Con Sorc having higher or lower DPS against Agi/Con Hunter) but they would need points into Int/Agi/Con and maybe some Wis later, so having HP in their equips would let them play with their stat more.

I also think Sorc need to have more instant cast spell (which is already planned as a new spell in next version) because it's not really useful to have lots of spell when you can only cast one of them at a time.

4. Also because some class has really high ArP, some of them will not stat Str because it's not used, but if boss has too high Ar, Int Crus will not be able to hold agro because of his low damage. I dont know how to balance this but maybe it will make some Str Crus more viable, or just make Int Crus to give more magical damage (I only play crus, so I don't know how is it with other tanks).

just my opinion pls dont yell at me for this long post ^^;

 

[noobcake]

1. You either go for casting speed or health. The game is easy enough as it is, why make it even easier by giving us even more spell haste while maintaining the same HP?

2. Just like refresher orb or tinker's rearm, resetting item cooldowns seems as intended to me.

3. Sorc is just a nerfed hunter in terms of damage output. I agree that it should fill some sort of niche.

Leather items (late game) don't give any hp. Lizzie gives MP. Mask of Betrayal doesn't give HP or MP. Band of Slashing and Redrune Gauntlets don't give HP, either. Your point is moot.

4. INT Sader can hold aggro just fine with Virtue.

 

[frustatedmagician]

1. the con formula is at its best so no need to change anything. what youre suggesting will just make str based class overpowered.

2. im not sure if its intended or not but i personally thinks that it shouldnt reset items. about wisdom, its all about mana pool at first. but later on, ppl might consider to put some points on wisdom to get the magic def benefit. it wont be well balanced if certain class can go pure stat / con meanwhile healer class need to go hybrid.

3. you will have tons of hp as a caster, and you will have a good spell haste not from your base stat agi, but from item bonus stat agi.

as for the role of the wizard in the game, i believe it has been considered and in the upcoming updates, monsters / bosses with element attributes will be more oftenly seen and caster will start to shine.

4. its alrdy a good trade off. in killing normal mobs, int based crus can deal more damage compared to str based crus is just more than enough.

 

[Malygos10]

1. the con formula is at its best so no need to change anything. what youre suggesting will just make str based class overpowered.

2. im not sure if its intended or not but i personally thinks that it shouldnt reset items. about wisdom, its all about mana pool at first. but later on, ppl might consider to put some points on wisdom to get the magic def benefit. it wont be well balanced if certain class can go pure stat / con meanwhile healer class need to go hybrid.

3. you will have tons of hp as a caster, and you will have a good spell haste not from your base stat agi, but from item bonus stat agi.

as for the role of the wizard in the game, i believe it has been considered and in the upcoming updates, monsters / bosses with element attributes will be more oftenly seen and caster will start to shine.

4. its alrdy a good trade off. in killing normal mobs, int based crus can deal more damage compared to str based crus is just more than enough.

1. Are you saying it would only make str based class op? What about all other classes? I don't believe he suggested to give hp bonuses to just crusader and berserker, he only mentioned he plays a crusader.

2. You only have pots as active items, and the necro skull only works on skels (trust me, the bonus atk on a skeleton is not a huge deal). And you have to consider the chance of reset. Right now it's pretty balanced, so I wouldn't complain about something like that.

3. To have "tons of hp on your caster" as you put it, aside from maxing int you'd have to max con, and even then you wouldn't have tons of hp, also casters got shitty armor so they're an easy kill for the bosses, especially when they crit. True, you get haste from items, but skilling agi might help out more than the item bonus

4. I don't have a problem with this one, all I want them to do is make it easier for crusaders to keep aggro. I don't have a crusader myself, but it's pretty irritating watching crusader struggle to keep aggro from my berserker

 

[chiya]

1. hmm I see that the Con change may make some classes much stronger. but right now I'm feeling that why would I put my 3 last stats point to str that only add small ammount of damage when i can put the points to Con which give 100hp. everybody needs hp and I believe the enemy is going to get stronger and having max Con will be more important.

2. I'm thinking that with the CD reset items, my crus will not need any points in wisdom because mana pot keep reseting.

about cloth having hp is just a statement from me because mage need to stat a lot more so having high hp from equip helps them to allocate some points from Con to other stat.

4. I just feel that some class have a very high ArP and almost make their normal attack damage like a magic attack... but having a high Ar boss will make class like crus wont be able to deal damage.

 

[frustatedmagician]

1. Are you saying it would only make str based class op? What about all other classes? I don't believe he suggested to give hp bonuses to just crusader and berserker, he only mentioned he plays a crusader.

2. You only have pots as active items, and the necro skull only works on skels (trust me, the bonus atk on a skeleton is not a huge deal). And you have to consider the chance of reset. Right now it's pretty balanced, so I wouldn't complain about something like that.

3. To have "tons of hp on your caster" as you put it, aside from maxing int you'd have to max con, and even then you wouldn't have tons of hp, also casters got shitty armor so they're an easy kill for the bosses, especially when they crit. True, you get haste from items, but skilling agi might help out more than the item bonus

4. I don't have a problem with this one, all I want them to do is make it easier for crusaders to keep aggro. I don't have a crusader myself, but it's pretty irritating watching crusader struggle to keep aggro from my berserker

1. yes. all class will get 1 hit killed by a high rate critical of revenge.
2. i still disagree on pots. active equip can be exception.
3. yea and what do you want? tanking as a cloth? and no, skilling agi doesnt help much to boost your spell haste. but low base agi with high item bonus agi DOES.
4. nope. this is actually the fun part. thats why several classes are meant to be off-tank. if all agro wents to crus, couldve just remove monk, sin, zerk from the game.

its more irritating for me to see a zerk couldnt manage aggro and rather blame other class, whining abt how suck a crus is.

 

[Malygos10]

1. yes. all class will get 1 hit killed by a high rate critical of revenge.
2. i still disagree on pots. active equip can be exception.
3. yea and what do you want? tanking as a cloth? and no, skilling agi doesnt help much to boost your spell haste. but low base agi with high item bonus agi DOES.
4. nope. this is actually the fun part. thats why several classes are meant to be off-tank. if all agro wents to crus, couldve just remove monk, sin, zerk from the game.

its more irritating for me to see a zerk couldnt manage aggro and rather blame other class, whining abt how suck a crus is.

1. Con doesn't give str
2. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
3. Adding just a little bit of hp won't suddenly make int based classes op tanks, relax. It's just for better survivability, especially for boss crits and spawns. About the haste thing, I don't actually remember by what percentage each agi point increases haste, but if some hp was awarded as stated in the first point, you'd have more skill points left to put into agi + item spell haste bonus, you'd have much more spell haste.
4. I actually know this better than most people, I used to offtank (and tank, with someone else off tanking) lady carimedraz with bishop, druid, and zerk to get the mark (and that's just what I remember because it's been so long). What I'm really talking about here is if you have a smaller party of a couple of guys trying to take down a boss, let's say a berserker and a crusader, and you need to kill it quickly, would you be able to "control your aggro as a berserker" every time?

I'm not whining at all. I merely pointed out that I understand how hard it is to keep aggro and that I sympathize. The problem here is that it's hard for crusaders to keep aggro, not just from berserkers, but also from sins and bards, but for some reason only berserkers get blamed for not being able to "manage aggro". The tank's role should be to be able to manage aggro (and also lose aggro when needed, like toggling heroic presence and stop attacking for certain bosses) so that dps classes can go full dps without the fear of being 2-3 shot by boss crits and getting accused of not being able to keep aggro

 

[frustatedmagician]

sighhhhhhhhh..........

1. what im tryin to say is, put the con formula that way, str classes will start to put agi which will increase their critical rate and will result an op dps / revenge crit damage (as it oftenly crits more)
2. ok
3. gosh, more survivability u say? 700 hp is too much alrdy and if you plan to put some points into agi, its pretty much pointless for your spell haste. im not speaking about spell haste item option, im saying AGI item option. if youre not quite sure, then ensure yourself before arguing.
4. in smaller party, its you that should adjust the type of class composition is best to bring down boss, not the game should adjust with whatever class u have. sheez. and if u think u have the knowledge better than most people, why cant you figure out this "some reason" u mentioned? stop jokin around will you.

 

[Malygos10]

sighhhhhhhhh..........

1. what im tryin to say is, put the con formula that way, str classes will start to put agi which will increase their critical rate and will result an op dps / revenge crit damage (as it oftenly crits more)
2. ok
3. gosh, more survivability u say? 700 hp is too much alrdy and if you plan to put some points into agi, its pretty much pointless for your spell haste. im not speaking about spell haste item option, im saying AGI item option. if youre not quite sure, then ensure yourself before arguing.
4. in smaller party, its you that should adjust the type of class composition is best to bring down boss, not the game should adjust with whatever class u have. sheez. and if u think u have the knowledge better than most people, why cant you figure out this "some reason" u mentioned? stop jokin around will you.

Can you actually read and try to understand what I'm saying?
Ok, let's say str classes (let's be real here we're talking about berserker) start putting agi, how is that a negative? You made it sound as a negative by suggesting the pvp option. Second, who said it won't benefit other classes? Agi based dps can put in str for arp, int classes can skill some wisdom and like I said even agi for more haste and crit chance. And it'd even help crusaders who are having a hard time choosing which way they wanna go. I'm failing to see the down side here. Again, it's merely a suggestion.

700 hp is only attainable if you skip a couple of skill points on int at lvl 50 and put it all on con, provided you have full gear. And who would wear cloth that gives agi over one that gives spell haste or int?! Was I supposed to just guess you meant items that give agility and not actually skilling agi?

Ok, how do you suggest I adjust to the game in that situation?
Again, we've all been adjusting pretty well so far, except for those times when even the skilled crusaders have a hard time keeping aggro, in a larger group I mean. They GA one dps, another generates more aggro, or unfortunate splash damage right when the mobs spawn in some boss fights. Maybe add some aoe taunt or something, not every crusader has demoralizing shout.

 

[frustatedmagician]

Can you actually read and try to understand what I'm saying?
Ok, let's say str classes (let's be real here we're talking about berserker) start putting agi, how is that a negative? You made it sound as a negative by suggesting the pvp option. Second, who said it won't benefit other classes? Agi based dps can put in str for arp, int classes can skill some wisdom and like I said even agi for more haste and crit chance. And it'd even help crusaders who are having a hard time choosing which way they wanna go. I'm failing to see the down side here. Again, it's merely a suggestion.

700 hp is only attainable if you skip a couple of skill points on int at lvl 50 and put it all on con, provided you have full gear. And who would wear cloth that gives agi over one that gives spell haste or int?! Was I supposed to just guess you meant items that give agility and not actually skilling agi?

Ok, how do you suggest I adjust to the game in that situation?
Again, we've all been adjusting pretty well so far, except for those times when even the skilled crusaders have a hard time keeping aggro, in a larger group I mean. They GA one dps, another generates more aggro, or unfortunate splash damage right when the mobs spawn in some boss fights. Maybe add some aoe taunt or something, not every crusader has demoralizing shout.

man. this gonna be my last post. im not into another meaningless argument.

who will gain most benefit from that con formula. str classes gains aspd and crit rate. meanwhile agi classes gains arp which they alrdy have in their skills or talents. int classes have more mana and mdef from wisdom, are u fucking kidding me?

now enough argument for spell haste, let you have your own thoughts. all i can say is please do play cloth class before acting like knowing everything.

and actually, in killing bosses, things arent really complicated like how u said it. well maybe at first it does, but after several runs, u should notice what ure lack of. well, if until know u still cant figure out why agro loves to bug u instead of bugging sins, i have nothing to say really. oh and demoralizing shout is exclusive to berserker, so i really dont know what ure talking about in ur last statement.

 

[chiya]

hmm i think agi class would still stat full Agi Con rather than increasing some meaningless ArP. Mage could stat Agi instead of wis to increase their crit and haste too.. about Str class yeah maybe this class would benefit the most because they already got good Hp from Equipments, maybe some numbers could be tweaked

basically,

right now:
lv50, 0 Con = 0hp
lv50, 25 Con = 575hp

with 5hp per lvl and 15hp per Con:
lv50, 0 con = 250hp
lv50, 25 con = 250hp + 375hp = 625hp

or we could make 3hp per lvl and 17hp per con points, that way we would get
lv50, 0 con = 150hp
lv50, 25con = 150hp + 425hp = 575hp

my point is at the moment, last points in Con offer too high Hp to pass.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

A flat linear bonus to HP would make CON to weak in comparison to the HP you get from items in the lategame and would make it too strong in the early game. That's why the CON formula got changed to provide an exponential bonus.

Btw, this is also the case with wisdom, but I decided for a different approach here by adding additional resistances aswell, to make wisdom more attractive in lategame.

A level based bonus to HP would make CON even less attrative in lategame, as the gap between no-con-hp and max-con-hp would be even smaller. Also HP is an important factor in item design and allows for different customization strategies, hence you only get HP by speccing CON, not by leveling alone.
If you are not quite sure what I mean, just consider this:
Let's say you want an HP pool of 500 HP. You can either spec a lot of CON and then stack up items with lots of stats other than HP or you equip items that have HP on them and then invest spare points into other stats. This is an interesting way of playing out the char customization, which I want to encourage.

 

[frustatedmagician]

though i dont see how a few difference amount of hp will make early game easier,
but well said, the attractiveness is so damn true. its like players will have the urge to max con and will die hard much to reach level cap in order to unlock last lvl of con requirement.

 

[Malygos10]

man. this gonna be my last post. im not into another meaningless argument.

who will gain most benefit from that con formula. str classes gains aspd and crit rate. meanwhile agi classes gains arp which they alrdy have in their skills or talents. int classes have more mana and mdef from wisdom, are u fucking kidding me?

now enough argument for spell haste, let you have your own thoughts. all i can say is please do play cloth class before acting like knowing everything.

and actually, in killing bosses, things arent really complicated like how u said it. well maybe at first it does, but after several runs, u should notice what ure lack of. well, if until know u still cant figure out why agro loves to bug u instead of bugging sins, i have nothing to say really. oh and demoralizing shout is exclusive to berserker, so i really dont know what ure talking about in ur last statement.

It seems to me like you're giving up on your argument because I'm proving you wrong, and instead of admitting that my point makes sense, you play it off as a "meaningless argument".

Anyways, str classes gain very low atk speed and cc, keeping in mind we don't even know how many skill point they'll have left if hp was just awarded, and if that will be implemented at all, but agi classes gain more fucking arp. What's that bullshit argument that agi classes will get arp which they already get from items?? They'll get more arp! Same for berserkers. That's not even an argument, I don't know what it is you have against berserkers, but you sure aren't making any sense with that point.

I've played every single class, and one of my favorite classes is bishop, so I know wtf I'm talking about. Concerning what you said about int classes having more mana and magic resist from wisdom, sigh... If you've ever played an int class yourself, maybe you'd know that most points go into int and con, leaving maybe 1 or 2 for wisdom, and some people don't even put one into wisdom (those players you might've seen who have like 600 mana and 400 hp with level 40+ int classes are newer players), so I'm trying to say that if hp was awarded, int classes would have more skill points to spend on wisdom. Like I said, please try to think about and understand what I'm trying to say here.

I don't know if you actually understood what I was trying to say so lemme clear it out for you, aggro wasn't just "bugging me", what I was trying to say was that crusders could use GA on a zerk and then when the duration of GA runs out, another dps could aggro a boss or spawns, and GA has a long cd, see how it doesn't only bother berserkers?
Whatever it is you have against berserkers, you can't be biased when you wanna argue for one side that you favor, because you need to understand both sides.

And yeah I admit I forgot that they made demoralizing shout a berserker only spell, I was probably just thinking of some earlier version.

 

[Malygos10]

hmm i think agi class would still stat full Agi Con rather than increasing some meaningless ArP. Mage could stat Agi instead of wis to increase their crit and haste too.. about Str class yeah maybe this class would benefit the most because they already got good Hp from Equipments, maybe some numbers could be tweaked

basically,

right now:
lv50, 0 Con = 0hp
lv50, 25 Con = 575hp

with 5hp per lvl and 15hp per Con:
lv50, 0 con = 250hp
lv50, 25 con = 250hp + 375hp = 625hp

or we could make 3hp per lvl and 17hp per con points, that way we would get
lv50, 0 con = 150hp
lv50, 25con = 150hp + 425hp = 575hp

my point is at the moment, last points in Con offer too high Hp to pass.

The problem with what you said about agi classes going full agi and then more con is that there's a level limit on how many agi and con points you can skill, like when you lvl up you can skill agi, and the next time you lvl up you can't skill agi again, you gotta go for something else.

And how is arp meaningless? It basically helps ignore armor and thus letting you deal more dmg. Also, this would help out the more hybrid-like classes like druid and monk

 

[Malygos10]

A flat linear bonus to HP would make CON to weak in comparison to the HP you get from items in the lategame and would make it too strong in the early game. That's why the CON formula got changed to provide an exponential bonus.

Btw, this is also the case with wisdom, but I decided for a different approach here by adding additional resistances aswell, to make wisdom more attractive in lategame.

A level based bonus to HP would make CON even less attrative in lategame, as the gap between no-con-hp and max-con-hp would be even smaller. Also HP is an important factor in item design and allows for different customization strategies, hence you only get HP by speccing CON, not by leveling alone.
If you are not quite sure what I mean, just consider this:
Let's say you want an HP pool of 500 HP. You can either spec a lot of CON and then stack up items with lots of stats other than HP or you equip items that have HP on them and then invest spare points into other stats. This is an interesting way of playing out the char customization, which I want to encourage.

I see how that could work, but is it maybe possible to increase the hp for speccing con then?

Also, generally you could go for the item that gives hp and spend the points that should've gone to con on something else, but usually the gear that gives hp is worse than those that don't and instead give other bonuses.

 

[chiya]

A flat linear bonus to HP would make CON to weak in comparison to the HP you get from items in the lategame and would make it too strong in the early game. That's why the CON formula got changed to provide an exponential bonus.

Btw, this is also the case with wisdom, but I decided for a different approach here by adding additional resistances aswell, to make wisdom more attractive in lategame.

A level based bonus to HP would make CON even less attrative in lategame, as the gap between no-con-hp and max-con-hp would be even smaller. Also HP is an important factor in item design and allows for different customization strategies, hence you only get HP by speccing CON, not by leveling alone.
If you are not quite sure what I mean, just consider this:
Let's say you want an HP pool of 500 HP. You can either spec a lot of CON and then stack up items with lots of stats other than HP or you equip items that have HP on them and then invest spare points into other stats. This is an interesting way of playing out the char customization, which I want to encourage.

I don't rly mind either way, it's only my opinion that Con is currently the most attractive stats because without it our survibility is really bad. with the 3hp/lvl 17hp/con formula, the gap between no-con and full-con would still be very high, it'll just make people easier to attain his target HP with lower Con, and sacrificing some Con like 5 points of it wouldn't make u lost 165Hp which is a lot. I believe people would still stat a lot of Con, at least I know I would because I prefer survivability.

The problem with what you said about agi classes going full agi and then more con is that there's a level limit on how many agi and con points you can skill, like when you lvl up you can skill agi, and the next time you lvl up you can't skill agi again, you gotta go for something else.

And how is arp meaningless? It basically helps ignore armor and thus letting you deal more dmg. Also, this would help out the more hybrid-like classes like druid and monk

I don't get your first point but. I know most people alternate between their main stat and Con.

Hm what I meant is about Assassin and Hunter because they alrdy got very high ArP (maybe even the ArP is higher than the Boss' Ar) and adding Str is not going to be helpfull. About Druid, druid need to stat Int and Con, if druid want more dps, Agi would be the choice instead of Str. About monk, well if he wants to sacrifice, let's say 5 Con = 165Hp for 2.5 Arp and some crit bonus, it's up to him.

 

[Malygos10]

I don't rly mind either way, it's only my opinion that Con is currently the most attractive stats because without it our survibility is really bad. with the 3hp/lvl 17hp/con formula, the gap between no-con and full-con would still be very high, it'll just make people easier to attain his target HP with lower Con, and sacrificing some Con like 5 points of it wouldn't make u lost 165Hp which is a lot. I believe people would still stat a lot of Con, at least I know I would because I prefer survivability.



I don't get your first point but. I know most people alternate between their main stat and Con.

Hm what I meant is about Assassin and Hunter because they alrdy got very high ArP (maybe even the ArP is higher than the Boss' Ar) and adding Str is not going to be helpfull. About Druid, druid need to stat Int and Con, if druid want more dps, Agi would be the choice instead of Str. About monk, well if he wants to sacrifice, let's say 5 Con = 165Hp for 2.5 Arp and some crit bonus, it's up to him.

I wasn't talking about skilling str for druids and monks, I meant that if this is implemented and you get a few more skill points that you would've spent on con, that would help out druids and monks

 

[frustatedmagician]

there is none of your point that is actually valid.
all u do is blabbering invalid things and die hard tryin to make it valid.

things are clear enough for me so that u dont need to make things clear.
youre still missin few things that im tryin to point out to you.
thats why i call it all nonsense argument.

u played a berserker and u dont even know the real potential of the class u played.
saying str class has low aspd and crit.
and yet u claim to have bishop as ur fave and u dont even know how to do your spell haste.

sorry to say but,
u suck dude.

 

[Malygos10]

there is none of your point that is actually valid.
all u do is blabbering invalid things and die hard tryin to make it valid.

things are clear enough for me so that u dont need to make things clear.
youre still missin few things that im tryin to point out to you.
thats why i call it all nonsense argument.

u played a berserker and u dont even know the real potential of the class u played.
saying str class has low aspd and crit.
and yet u claim to have bishop as ur fave and u dont even know how to do your spell haste.

sorry to say but,
u suck dude.

Sorry, I didn't know I had to spell it out for you. What I meant was that if this is implemented and we get a couple of extra skill points to skill something else instead of spending them on con, and you skill agi on your berserker you're not gonna suddenly be able to attack super fast and have 100% cc with just a few more points in agi.

You got any proof that I don't know "how to do my spell haste"?

What you need to do is learn how to accept defeat like a man! All you're doing here is posting bullshit that doesn't even make sense, and just saying how my points aren't valid.

Maybe you don't know how things are done around here, but if you get something wrong you admit your mistake, instead of telling people they should learn the stuff they already know and accusing them of "not making sense"

 

[frustatedmagician]

lmao. this super pro dude got mad huh?
you dont need plenty agi to have a kicking zerk build.

you dont even know the reason zerk taking over all sin's agro, yet zerk are losing in dps from sin. u jst so confused and dont know what happened so u jst say "some reason".
and now, you defending yourself again about spell haste?

how cute.

 

[Malygos10]

lmao. this super pro dude got mad huh?
you dont need plenty agi to have a kicking zerk build.

you dont even know the reason zerk taking over all sin's agro, yet zerk are losing in dps from sin. u jst so confused and dont know what happened so u jst say "some reason".
and now, you defending yourself again about spell haste?

how cute.

Sorry, were you trying to make sense?

 

[frustatedmagician]

seems it doesnt make sense for you? then il list down my question for you.
dont worry, il make it easy for you, il even do it in multiple choice

1. which is better for spell haste.
(a) low base agi with option item agi + spell haste
(b) high base agi with option item agi + spell haste
(c) hold on, gimme 1 hour to think.

2. why agro boss went to zerk instead of sins, yet sins dps are higher.
(a) i dont know
(b) stop asking me that, cant we jst say it for "some reasons"
(c) -put your optional answers here-

3. str class gain the most benefit from hybrid build
(a) wrong
(b) ok
(c) blablablablablabla.. blublublublu.. ok.

4. a few agi wont get your zerk kicking. a "few" out of 25 is
(a) around 3 or 5
(b) less than 17 id say, coz 17 is still less than 18.
(c) the fuck are you askin? i dont get it.

 

[Malygos10]

seems it doesnt make sense for you? then il list down my question for you.
dont worry, il make it easy for you, il even do it in multiple choice

1. which is better for spell haste.
(a) low base agi with option item agi + spell haste
(b) high base agi with option item agi + spell haste
(c) hold on, gimme 1 hour to think.

2. why agro boss went to zerk instead of sins, yet sins dps are higher.
(a) i dont know
(b) stop asking me that, cant we jst say it for "some reasons"
(c) -put your optional answers here-

3. str class gain the most benefit from hybrid build
(a) wrong
(b) ok
(c) blablablablablabla.. blublublublu.. ok.

4. a few agi wont get your zerk kicking. a "few" out of 25 is
(a) around 3 or 5
(b) less than 17 id say, coz 17 is still less than 18.
(c) the fuck are you askin? i dont get it.

Ok, with that first question you just proved my point...

2. Wow, I never said aggro only went to berserkers, I said it went to all dps classes, but only berserkers were blamed for it. Say if there's more than one dps class in a party, chances are one of them will get aggro for a while at some point of the boss fight. Just goes to show how you don't even read. Or are you just having a hard time understanding? I noticed English wasn't your best subject

3. LOL, I said hybrid classes like druid and monk, I never said str classes should go hybrid build. Druid and monk are considered hybrid.

4. Ok I really don't understand what you're trying to say here dude... Seriously, use other words to explain this to me, cause like I said your English might not be perfect

 

[frustatedmagician]

1. proved your point of what? ure not even answering it.
2. thats my question. u keep sayin "for some reason" berserkers were blamed. ur #2 answer is absurd as well.
3. oh no you dont. at first you keep mentioning agi classes in general. and you keep being persistent on how arp gives much benefit. the #3 question doesnt ask for your opinion, it demands your answer.
4. yea and you think its cool to be a grammar geek and make a big deal out of incorrect words when you alrdy cornered? i find it pointless if you alrdy understood yet you pretend not to. if you really dont understand, im just curious about how many of your "few" is. and again youre not answering.

 

[frustatedmagician]

come on, whats so hard to answer those easy questions.
you even alrdy have the multiple choice listed for your answers.

dont be shy, answer them

 

[noobcake]

frustratedmagician, I suggest you learn proper English before spamming like a madman. Most of the stuff you're posting makes absolutely no sense.

I honestly don't see why this discussion is still going. The only valid point the OP raised was the fact that Sorcerer is basically a nerfed hunter. Everything else was not even worth discussing. Give it a rest, guys.

 

[TooMuch]

LOL. This is very funny. allow me to clear some things up here.
First off malygos, do you know how many times you just contradicted yourself trying to prove your point? Its hilarious. If you were to remember all the other posts you typed in the past, you will see what i mean. hint: "Anyone can keep aggro"......"i understand how hard it is to keep aggro"

Frustrated magician, sad to say but you are still a frustrated magician. now dont get me wrong here, i understand your point of view and malygos is just trying to be his cocky stupid self.
But dont act like a fool towards the end. Dont let stupidity destroy your composer.

Now to get back to the OP. Think of the whole situation like this. If this change was implemented, exactly who would do what? hmm let me see, people still think that they need hp to live longer and do more dmg. So max const. will more likely be there. And since a couple more attribute points only make so much of a difference with exceptions to the flat bonuses. The change will be minimal. However, there are people who will sacrifice thier survivability to do more dmg. But how many of you are willing to do that?

With respect to the whole wisdom and cd reset. look at it like this, most people dont get alot of wisdom because they mainly max const. and primary attribute. so they rely off of pots. But is the 5% chance always going to be there? Are they willing to sacrifice thier independent sustain for a chance to reset the pot? thats all up to you. and thats the very nature of games. people have different playstyles. let them adjust accordingly.

It really depends on how you play the hunter/sorcerer. remember, sorcs and necros can equip daggers. why would zwieb implement that? becasue sometimes basic attacks are more useful than your spell casts.

And about the arp... well that factor varies. But lets look at the crusader.
most go int crus becasue of the dmg bonus it gives to base attack and spell casts. Even though true tanks shouldnt be reliant off of such factors. anyways, the bonus dmg they recieved practically offsets the arp they can acquire if they were to go points/gear in str. Yeah they have less arp but they have more overall dmg. however, that bonus magic dmg isnt always enough against high armor guys. so therefore comes the different playstyles of a crusader, hence str crus vs. int crus. int wins in spells becasue of aoe bonus while str wins in solo boss. To find the perfect balance is up to you and future items.

 

[frustatedmagician]

@noobcake

hi noob. mind to re-read the thread title, noob? now you see, noob.

@TooMuch

- i need to sync a little with him so i can bait him out.
- and thats what im tryin to say. if this was implemented, only str classes will benefit and convert some cons into agi, to maximize their crit rate chance.
- regular hits from daggers is more useful than spell casts? hows that.

 

[chiya]

@noobcake

hi noob. mind to re-read the thread title, noob? now you see, noob.

@TooMuch

- i need to sync a little with him so i can bait him out.
- and thats what im tryin to say. if this was implemented, only str classes will benefit and convert some cons into agi, to maximize their crit rate chance.
- regular hits from daggers is more useful than spell casts? hows that.

hahaha yeah, this is just my random suggestion, if noobcake's personal opinion think that this is not worth discussing maybe he shouldn't discourage others who might want to discuss it!!

I think some mage class could benefit from it too because with a little less Con mage would still have decent hp and could allocate points to Agi or Wis.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

You can already allocate a good number of CON points into Agi or Wis. Nobody says you really need 700 HP to survive certain bosses - it's just that extra amount of safety that people prefer in their playstyle.

On a side note, I want to clarify one thing here that some people seem to be confused about:
"base stat" on the formulaes for crit, haste, etc. refers to the "naked" base stats WITHOUT skill points assigned.
So adding agi by skill points WILL increase your haste rating the same as an agi point awarded by gear.

 

[frustatedmagician]

@Zwieb
omggg.. so thats the real meaning of base agi.
i jst knew it now.

all this time i thought it was white agi without + from greens.
no wonder my spellhaste % calculation always went wrong.

yeah correct, tried and tested.
gets my argument for spellhaste invalid.

@Malygos10
regardless of that, im still waiting for ur answers

 

[Malygos10]

1. proved your point of what? ure not even answering it.
2. thats my question. u keep sayin "for some reason" berserkers were blamed. ur #2 answer is absurd as well.
3. oh no you dont. at first you keep mentioning agi classes in general. and you keep being persistent on how arp gives much benefit. the #3 question doesnt ask for your opinion, it demands your answer.
4. yea and you think its cool to be a grammar geek and make a big deal out of incorrect words when you alrdy cornered? i find it pointless if you alrdy understood yet you pretend not to. if you really dont understand, im just curious about how many of your "few" is. and again youre not answering.

And again I gotta spell it out for you.
Ok, I'll play this little game of yours.

1. Let's just go with the obvious answer of choice b. Where does higher agi comes from? That's right, if you can spend a few more skill points that would normally go to con on agi, then you'd have higher agi = more spell haste, just to prove to you that int classes would also benefit, since you're so concerned about berserkers going op with crazy fast atk speed and cc (which is not likely, considering it'd only probably be like 5 more skill points?). And here's a hint, if you don't want more spell haste and cc, you don't have to spend them on agi, you can just put them on con resulting even more hp.

2. How is my answer absurd when it's only the truth? I'm sorry, am I going too fucking fast for you? Seriously, it's like you don't even read before replying.

3. Ok, show me to a post of mine where I mention str classes going hybrid build, I don't think we understand each other here.

4. First of all, if I understood your comment, why the fuck would I waste my time pretending that I didn't? Second, if I wanted to make fun of your English I would've done so long ago (it,s not to say my english is that good either, but if you want me to understand you, you gotta do better than that). It's just frustrating not being able to understand what you're talking about

 

[Malygos10]

LOL. This is very funny. allow me to clear some things up here.
First off malygos, do you know how many times you just contradicted yourself trying to prove your point? Its hilarious. If you were to remember all the other posts you typed in the past, you will see what i mean. hint: "Anyone can keep aggro"......"i understand how hard it is to keep aggro".

Ok here's the thing, when I said that anyone can keep aggro i meant, like, let's take alch for example, any dps class can keep aggro on him, even the bishop (and obviously sorc and necro), but it's harder for crusaders to keep aggro on themselves the whole fight without some other dps classes getting it at some point, especially after he used that fire spell (I forgot what it's called) and goes berserk. Might 2-3 shot some dps like that. That's why it'd be easier if crusaders could somehow get more dmg or arp

 

[SHBlade]

Zwieb, for me u should buff the Hand of Doom a little, my suggestion is to remove 10% attack speed reduction of the sword.
Regards.

 

[Malygos10]

frustratedmagician, I suggest you learn proper English before spamming like a madman. Most of the stuff you're posting makes absolutely no sense.

I honestly don't see why this discussion is still going. The only valid point the OP raised was the fact that Sorcerer is basically a nerfed hunter. Everything else was not even worth discussing. Give it a rest, guys.

I do agree that this conversation is totally pointless. Going back to frstratedmagician's original post, I only engaged in this cause he seems to have some sort of a vendetta against str classes (and by that obviously he means berserker, since a crusader wouldn't benefit much from "increased atk speed and crit rate"), or he just doesn't like them. In any case, the only point I was trying to get across is that all classes would benefit if this was implemented and not just berserkers.

And I also suggested that maybe they add some sort of aoe taunt (like demoralizing shout, but would generate much more threat) to at least help out crusaders keep aggro with a little more efficiency

 

[Malygos10]

Zwieb, for me u should buff the Hand of Doom a little, my suggestion is to remove 10% attack speed reduction of the sword.
Regards.

Yeah that'd be awesome

 

[frustatedmagician]

ok, you finally manage to have a quite good answer there, malygos10.
at first i thought youre just tryin to say things that youre not certain of, acting knowing everything, but now i guess not entirely. well il jst make myself clear now.

1.

if you don't want more spell haste and cc, you don't have to spend them on agi, you can just put them on con equalling even more hp

this statement really save you from the bait. i planned to find out if you noticed, cloth class really doesnt need to stat agi. bishop and sorc really doesnt need to put agi. reason is, with the existing equips, the flash of light cooldown alrdy fully covered with the amount of agi + spell haste obtained from items. as for sorcerer, the more agi you put, the more haste you will be, the more easily ul be running out of mana during boss fights.

2. il tell you why. sins have into the shade. no matter how fast a sin produce a dps, once its near 100%, they can cast this anytime. not to mention the skill reset. this makes assassin the best dps in boss fights. since sins doesnt need to hold back and other dps class needs to, and thats the way it is. nothing need to be changed. oh and maintaining agro of a zerk is not as complicated as bishop, where at certain moments the agro meter of a bishop is at its peak and the situation demands you to heal so please stop your complain on this.

3. i just want to know if you agree or not about str class will gain most benefit from this suggested con formula. even zwieb alrdy make this clear and you can still be persistent. i have nothing to say.

4. seems you really dnt wanna tell me how much is your "few". its regarding your statement "few agi wont make zerk kicking". makes me curious of how much is this "few" u meant. in numbers.

 

[frustatedmagician]

the heck, so many zerk players still wants zerk to be even more stronger?
sheez. guys. really.

 

[Malygos10]

ok, you finally manage to have a quite good answer there, malygos10.
at first i thought youre just tryin to say things that youre not certain of, acting knowing everything, but now i guess not entirely. well il jst make myself clear now.

1. this statement really save you from the bait. i planned to find out if you noticed, cloth class really doesnt need to stat agi. bishop and sorc really doesnt need to put agi. reason is, with the existing equips, the flash of light cooldown alrdy fully covered with the amount of agi + spell haste obtained from items. as for sorcerer, the more agi you put, the more haste you will be, the more easily ul be running out of mana during boss fights.

2. il tell you why. sins have into the shade. no matter how fast a sin produce a dps, once its near 100%, they can cast this anytime. not to mention the skill reset. this makes assassin the best dps in boss fights. since sins doesnt need to hold back and other dps class needs to, and thats the way it is. nothing need to be changed. oh and maintaining agro of a zerk is not as complicated as bishop, where at certain moments the agro meter of a bishop is at its peak and the situation demands you to heal so please stop your complain on this.

3. i just want to know if you agree or not about str class will gain most benefit from this suggested con formula. even zwieb alrdy make this clear and you can still be persistent. i have nothing to say.

4. seems you really dnt wanna tell me how much is your "few". its regarding your statement "few agi wont make zerk kicking". makes me curious of how much is this "few" u meant. in numbers.

Well you shouldn't have been so vague about it. Idk if you know this but I can't read minds, I thought we were talking about spell haste and agi.

1. True, higher spell haste will result in you running out of mana faster in boss fights, but you also kill the boss faster. And also, that's why I think the skill reset should stay the way it is and not changed to spells only.

2. I'm not complaining, just stating the facts. Like I said, imo a tank should be able to hold aggro so that dps classes don't withhold their attack and can just go full dps on the bosses, but that's just my opinion.

P.S. I usually use the mind breaker on wishop instead of the willow staff, cause it gives more sp and hp, and it's active ability is it removes 30% threat or 30 threat I don't remember, so for those who also use that staff I don't think losing some aggro with bishop is gonna be that big of a problem

3. Not sure if str classes would benefit the most because we haven't tested it yet. Also, as a berserker you wouldn't have to put all bonus skill points on agi, you could spend some (or all) of them on con if you wanted even more hp for more survivability.

4. Dude, I have no idea, although I've been assuming it could be around 4-5 bonus skillpoints I guess? (Not according to chiya's suggestion)

 

[Malygos10]

the heck, so many zerk players still wants zerk to be even more stronger?
sheez. guys. really.

Idk if you noticed but it's fairly easy to kill berserkers. Let's compare berserkers to sins since they both deal physical dps. Sins are generally easy to kill, a little easier than zerks, but they make up for it with high dps and atk speed, much higher than zerks' mind you. And they can also avoid any aggro and getting killed by just going invis in the middle of a fight. And they're not too bad with mobs either thanks to sweeping blades. Not to mention those sins that keep trap skill can easily disable some enemies and take them out without dying. Now let's talk about zerk advantages, oh that's right, having only slightly better armor and hp, and being one of the best at killing mobs. I'd say that's 1.5 advantage but let's round it up to 2. They're only attractive because they look better and they can deal a percentage of dmg to a second unit standing close to the primary target (considering you position yourself properly), wearing a 2h also lowers atk speed by 10%

Try playing a zerk

 

[frustatedmagician]

2. i also use mind breaker and have you been healing some decent geared ppl that needs plenty of heals?

4. 4-5 agi you say, then its just like around 100 hp trade off. what about 300 hp for 15 agi? sounds painful enough now?

man, dont compare zerk to sin.
sin cant tank, they have low armors.
berserker, u can always switch to crus armor that offers more hp, evasion, def, and resistance.
and you say i dont play berserker? i say i can tank all existing boss as a berserker.
i can even solo hill giant using zerk lv 44 with green items only.
also berserker have more AOE, wider range of AOE and faster cooldown.
and berserker even have a quite long cd pvp kill blow.

and you still want more?

 

[Malygos10]

2. i also use mind breaker and have you been healing some decent geared ppl that needs plenty of heals?

4. 4-5 agi you say, then its just like around 100 hp trade off. what about 300 hp for 15 agi? sounds painful enough now?

man, dont compare zerk to sin.
sin cant tank, they have low armors.
berserker, u can always switch to crus armor that offers more hp, evasion, def, and resistance.
and you say i dont play berserker? i say i can tank all existing boss as a berserker.
i can even solo hill giant using zerk lv 44 with green items only.
also berserker have more AOE, wider range of AOE and faster cooldown.
and berserker even have a quite long cd pvp kill blow.

and you still want more?

2. Yes I have, in fact, I usually only heal lvl 40+ people in boss fights, and most of them are lvl 48+ zerks or crusaders, or both. Now, how is that relevant to what we're talking about here?

4. it's a 100 hp trade off depending on what lvl you are. And I still don't understand what you mean. Ok, 15 agi is a lot, then what?

Sure, you can switch to tank gear, but at the cost of losing a lot of dmg, atk speed and cc. So my point remains.
Anyone can tank bosses as a zerk with full tank gear and good healer, but why don't you go ahead and post a replay of your lvl 44 zerk soloing HG with all green gear (obviously pots and merc included). I can also say that I can do that, if I'm certain that everything will go as planned. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure you can do that, since there's so many things that could go wrong, starting from lag, to your merc running off while your pot is on cd and if you move you get killed by earthquake, and if you don't HG kills you...

 

[frustatedmagician]

and what if i did upload a replay?

 

[Malygos10]

and what if i did upload a replay?

By all means, go ahead

 

[frustatedmagician]

here

 

[TooMuch]

@noobcake

hi noob. mind to re-read the thread title, noob? now you see, noob.

@TooMuch

- i need to sync a little with him so i can bait him out.
- and thats what im tryin to say. if this was implemented, only str classes will benefit and convert some cons into agi, to maximize their crit rate chance.
- regular hits from daggers is more useful than spell casts? hows that.

with regards to the base attack damage. Since most sorcs/necros go max INT, thier base dmg is increased. the daggers zwieb made in the past were there for like a hybrid hunter/sorcerer build. So like, you will use your insta cast spells for a high burst than use your auto attacks to finish it up.
now ofc it varies, especially when you are up against a boss.

Though the point is that instead of wating for your lets say water globes to cast. you managed to deal maybe more dmg with your base attacks, cause you got them off quicker. hence that some guys will go agi for faster speed and faster spell casts. so... fast but weak dmg, or slow but high dmg. kinda becomes situational.

However, since there are no new mage daggers. This playstyle can only be based off of sin/bard daggers. which gives a certain twist to it all. On the most part, zwieb said he will be giving more active gameplay later. so who knows what will happen.

 

[LittleTim]

reply

You can already allocate a good number of CON points into Agi or Wis. Nobody says you really need 700 HP to survive certain bosses - it's just that extra amount of safety that people prefer in their playstyle.

On a side note, I want to clarify one thing here that some people seem to be confused about:
"base stat" on the formulaes for crit, haste, etc. refers to the "naked" base stats WITHOUT skill points assigned.
So adding agi by skill points WILL increase your haste rating the same as an agi point awarded by gear.

i like how the game maker comes out and says you dont need 700 hp and you can build anyway you want. aside from these asshole anal control for power who say your noob and cant play with them if you under 600 hp and have more then 250 mana if im a bishop.

 

[LittleTim]

frustratedmagician, I suggest you learn proper English before spamming like a madman. Most of the stuff you're posting makes absolutely no sense.

I honestly don't see why this discussion is still going. The only valid point the OP raised was the fact that Sorcerer is basically a nerfed hunter. Everything else was not even worth discussing. Give it a rest, guys.

If you can't win an argument, correct their grammar instead

 

[LittleTim]

Ok, with that first question you just proved my point...

2. Wow, I never said aggro only went to berserkers, I said it went to all dps classes, but only berserkers were blamed for it. Say if there's more than one dps class in a party, chances are one of them will get aggro for a while at some point of the boss fight. Just goes to show how you don't even read. Or are you just having a hard time understanding? I noticed English wasn't your best subject

3. LOL, I said hybrid classes like druid and monk, I never said str classes should go hybrid build. Druid and monk are considered hybrid.

4. Ok I really don't understand what you're trying to say here dude... Seriously, use other words to explain this to me, cause like I said your English might not be perfect

If you can't win an argument, correct their grammar instead