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Modifying the Riderless Kodo

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I've been mostly a lurker here since joining, and I sincerely hope this is the proper forum for this, and I believe so since it's not a request, but more of a few questions I had about modifying a model, and the best way to go about it.

I've been looking at the tutorials for 3D modeling and animating, as there is a supposedly simple edit I wish to make to an existing model for it to fit in with a scenario I am planning for myself and a few friends. Now, since it's still in the planning stages I do not want to make it a Model Request, and so aim to at least make an attempt in doing it myself.

The plan was to take the Riderless Kodo (Preferably Olof's “feral” one since we need that feral look: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/kotobeastnorider-47618/ ) and give it the Kodo Beast rider's “Spell Puke” animation and the accompanying 'gutz' set of polygons it burps out after killing a unit with its Devour ability. We both found this unique animation on the rider to be highly amusing, but were at a complete loss as to how to get the riderless kodo to utilize this silliness as well.

Here's where the trouble comes in. I ended up gathering together a large quanitity of tutorials from the forum, from various artists and for different techniques, but in the end all I accomplished at the end of the day was completely overwhelming myself. I didn't even know where to begin.

At first I thought “Hey, they're similar models, maybe an animation transfer?” but I pointed out to myself that while they do have similar animations overall, their geometry counts are different. The Kodo Rider has the rider itself fused to the kodo, the thunder lizards have their spikes, etc. On top of that, the Kodo Beast has the 'puke' geometry tucked away inside its head/neck, for when its not using that animation.

I thought, that if I could get those 'gutz' polygons into the riderless kodo, then maybe the animation transfer could work. So I started looking at tutorials for geoset merging. It was at this point I started running around in circles again, and completely forgetting exactly what it was I was trying to accomplish in the programs.

I've never worked with GMAX before (And do not own any version of 3DS Max), and only have minimal knowledge of Milkshape and Magos Editor. I've used Cinema 4D for some time, so 3D itself I'm not all too foreign too but I am quickly getting overwhelmed with this specific task, not even knowing exactly what tutorials I should be looking at, and why. Beginning Modeling? Basic Animation Transfer? Geoset Merging? All of them? http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/3d-modeling-tutorials-282/modeling-animation-101-a-41840/ For example?

It's quite a lot to take in all at once, which boils down to my ultimate question: Should I keep trying to figure this out on my own, and if so how would be the best way to go about it? (i.e., start with simple edits, maybe a doodad or something. Then move onward...)
Or should I try and have someone do this for me? If this is the case, I'll take the thread to the proper forum.
 
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You're well-spoken, and have certainly done your research. You definitely deserve helping (especially compared to the dearth of "request/help" threads one can find glutting forums like these). I can only wish you the best.

Thank you, I hope I can get it down eventually but sometimes it just seems so impossible. Then I look at other members of the community doing the same or even greater and realize it's not impossible, it just takes time and patience to learn.

It's such a seemingly minor addition to a model, but the more I read the less it seems like it! I suppose I am jumping a bit ahead of myself trying to do something like this as my 'first' model editing, since it obviously is making use of some fairly advanced processes despite the relatively simple goal.
 
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It's been years since I modeled anything for Warcraft, but in this case I think the easiest thing for you to do would be to take the original kodo, delete the orc, drums, and anything else, and then copy the texture coordinates for the kodo itself from the model you linked, and use olofmoleman's texture.

Note that you'd probably need to ask for his permission no matter what you do.
 
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It's been years since I modeled anything for Warcraft, but in this case I think the easiest thing for you to do would be to take the original kodo, delete the orc, drums, and anything else, and then copy the texture coordinates for the kodo itself from the model you linked, and use olofmoleman's texture.

Note that you'd probably need to ask for his permission no matter what you do.

Is he still active here though? I'll send a PM his way though regardless. *edit* Yeah seems he hasn't been on the site in ages, but I followed the link to his DeviantART account and sent him a message about getting permission to modify it there.

The only problem I can see is that the original kodo has the rider literally modeled into the mount - they're not separate geometry and if you delete the rider there will be a gaping hole in the model.

Thanks for the help and advice though, I greatly appreciate it!
 
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If the guts mesh moves, it should be attached to a bone that pops out from the kodo's mouth. With any luck, Blizzard has forgotten to delete the bone when making the riderless kodo. If not, you could just make a new bone in Magos. If the riderless kodo still has the spell puke animation sequence, then you could open Node Manager and paste the rotation and translation keyframes from the same bone on the orc-ridden kodo model. Then it should work.
 
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The riderless kodo does not appear to have the spell puke animation sequence in it, only the spell slam (The one used when it devours something). As for what bone the guts polygons are parented to, I don't know. All I can think of is just deleting the bones specific to the orc rider then copying the whole rig over to the riderless one and hope stuff works. Not sure how to do that though... I think I'm way over my head with this one. I thought it'd be something quite simple, but every tutorial I read just makes it all the more confusing for me...
 
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Well, if you want an accurate animation transfer, you must make a new sequence and copy the keyframes for all bones manually, bone by bone. Though I thought the storm wyrm model had a sequence analogous to spell puke (its default spell animation), so perhaps you could use that instead?
 
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Well, if you want an accurate animation transfer, you must make a new sequence and copy the keyframes for all bones manually, bone by bone. Though I thought the storm wyrm model had a sequence analogous to spell puke (its default spell animation), so perhaps you could use that instead?

I'll have to do more reading then... I'm only barely familiar with Magos, have never once used MAX or GMAX (And don't even own MAX), and have only ever used Cinema 4D. I know a little about how these things work, but not enough apparently. I've done modeling and rigging before, UV mapping and animation...
http://sylxeriaguardian.deviantart.com/art/Laboratory-Hall-wip-364092231
But never with these tools. So everything seems new to me, new and confusing. The more I try and take in at once, the more confusing it is. I should probably just start with something else first, since this is clearly beyond my ability to do on my own :(

Nah, the Storm Wyrms are based on the kodos and share similar animations, but they only have the Spell Slam animation which the kodo also uses when devouring enemies or casting spells - if the kodo is given such an ability. The spell puke animation is unique to the Kodo Beast/Rider, and the Storm Wyrm doesn't have that animation or the 'gutz' polygons used in the puke animation. They both share the same Spell Slam (Devour/Spellcast) animations, walking animations and death animations, but the Spell Puke isn't included.


*EDIT* The kodo/wyrm/salamander's Slam animation is fairly similar to the Kodo Beast's Puke animation, but there are some subtle differences, notably in how wide the kodo opens its mouth, and how it pulls back slightly before burping, wheras in Spell Slam it lunges forward aggressively. They're not exactly similar, but they are fairly close.
 
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Here, is this what you need?

Well it's certainly close yes, though the model itself when imported has a bit of an odd geometry issue, part of the head geometry is shooting off into the distance. Loading it in Magos it looks just fine, but in-game? As far as I can tell I've imported it correctly. Restarted the editor and everything.

But yes, that is what I'm aiming to accomplish. Other than the geometry problem it's spot on, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to do that.
 

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My mistake, here it is.

Strange... This time it just doesn't load at all. Comes in completely empty and says it can't find the file.


Also if I may ask, what went wrong with the first file? What caused the geometry to shoot out like that? I'm a bit curious as to the cause since it may help me troubleshoot similar problems in the future ^^
 
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attachment.php




Problem with ObjectId and Parent in the bone.

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong then. I imported the first file as I usually do and restarted the editor and it showed up fine. I import the revised model in the same way after deleting the older import, and it doesn't show up at all.

It didn't really matter if I edited it to just say WildKodo.mdx either - the default path and revised path both don't load for me. Not sure why, as far as I know I'm doing everything correctly... *edit* I just started a new map, and imported both the first file you gave me and the revised one. The one with the bone problem loads fine, the fixed one doesn't. At least not for me anyway.



Ahh I see, so it was parented incorrectly then?
 
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It's working, check the map.

I opened the map, but the models are still empty. Not sure why it's working on your end but not for me. Very strange.
If it matters, the Import Manager in the map you provided states their file size is 0.
 

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I don't know what's happening. Is working for me, and in the Import Manager the file-sizes are 145/146.

It's very strange indeed... The first model you sent me imported and loaded fine, but the second one only worked for you... I don't know enough about the mdl/mdx files and these editing to know what could be going wrong, so I'm at a complete loss as to what to do or even what to research what's causing it.
*Edit* I opened the file in Magos, and it loads fine. Even comes in with the textures. Animations all work, everything - to me - appears just fine... But It just doesn't want to load for me in-game. I've re-saved it as a different filename and tried it, to no effect.

That aside, I thank you for having helped me, it really means a lot.
 
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Test this one.

This one gives me the same message: "Could not load file"

It's just odd, the files load in Magos just fine, and the textures show up too. Model Viewer loads it, but without the textures... But the World Editor just doesn't want to read the file for some reason.
 
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Another map with the new unit. Test the map with the game, test the other map as well. Is like your WE is the problem.
If that is not the problem, then I ran out of ideas because the models are working.

I don't know why, but this time it worked. The kodo model still does not show up in the editor, and for whatever reason the Import Manager continues to claim that the two imported files are 0kb in size, but in-game the kodo shows up perfectly. I tried it with both the default editor and the NewGen editor. They both behaved the same.

Again, thank you very much for this, and I apologize for the trouble that you had to go through
 
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Good to know that it worked, and no problem.

Well it works in the map you gave me anyway. Importing the Kodo New file results in the same "No Model" problem even when tested in-game. It works in your map only, and I can't export it either.


Still, it shows that it's probably not the model, although I'm not sure what could be making it do this. I'm using patch 1.26 if that makes any difference.
 
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If something works in WC3ME or the model viewer it doesn't mean it will work in-game, sadly. The game (and editor) follows more restrictive rules.

The above problem is really weird though.

/Edit
Downloaded WC3 because this intrigued me, and it indeed fails to load in the editor.

Yeah...you changed the texture path from Textures\WildKodo.blp to WildKodo.blp :p
 
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Yes, see my edit. You changed the texture path, and I (and probably Rezca) used the original.

It certainly is unusual, but would changing the texture path really make the model itself unloadable? He's shown already that it's working for him, but for one reason or another it's not working in ours. Very perplexing to say the least.
 
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If the editor fails to load a texture reference, it "fails" to load the model.
In the import window, simple change the path to "WildKodo.blp".

Well changing the import path from "Textures/WildKodo" to just "WildKodo" solved it. The two files with the fixed geometry now load both in-editor and in-game. After which I was able to spot something else... The sound effects when playing the 'spell puke' animation are muted or just missing. The rest of the animation sounds (Yes, What, Attack, Death, Slam/Spell, Pissed) all are there but the puke animation has no sounds attached to it. At first I thought it was just something making it quieter in the video he posted, but I looked closer and it really is gone.


Thank you for the tip about the texture path by the way, I kept thinking it had to always be Textures\Filename. I didn't know the model's texture references had anything to do with the model loading or not.
 
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Thank you for the tip about the texture path by the way, I kept thinking it had to always be Textures\Filename. I didn't know the model's texture references had anything to do with the model loading or not.
Ah yeah. Textures are integral to having models work; the geometry is effectively "invisible" unless wrapped. That being said, it's not always "Textures/___.blp", either; all those words and slashes are just 'game code' for "where in the MPQ" (repositories of files) the information is. That's why icons are "ReplaceableTextures/CommandButtons/_icon_name_.blp" (or whatever, I can't remember); they are in the "CommandButtons" file, in the "ReplaceableTextures" file. It's all just a big directory.

If you're serious about modding, I'd highly suggest just poking around the MPQs (use any old model editor or MPQ Browser to do so; Magos & War3Viewer are great) and looking at what's available, how it's used, where it is. Lots to be learned. :p
 
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Ah yeah. Textures are integral to having models work; the geometry is effectively "invisible" unless wrapped. That being said, it's not always "Textures/___.blp", either; all those words and slashes are just 'game code' for "where in the MPQ" (repositories of files) the information is. That's why icons are "ReplaceableTextures/CommandButtons/_icon_name_.blp" (or whatever, I can't remember); they are in the "CommandButtons" file, in the "ReplaceableTextures" file. It's all just a big directory.

If you're serious about modding, I'd highly suggest just poking around the MPQs (use any old model editor or MPQ Browser to do so; Magos & War3Viewer are great) and looking at what's available, how it's used, where it is. Lots to be learned. :p

I remember browsing around in the MPQs, extracting textures and planning on retexturing them, and then never actually getting around to retexturing them!
Hah, I think I rextextured the dragon turtle once, but when it ended up replacing the standard dragon turtle and I couldn't figure out how to get both model skins to coexist at the same time... Well yeah, I sort of gave up on texturing after that. I still rummaged around in the game files looking at things though.
 
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Yeah, I've switched the texture path to work with the model easily... and I forgot to switch the path after the edit.

Here, i've added the Event Sound.

It now works perfectly, everything.

Thank you both so much for the help!
 
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