Modelling & Animation Mini-Contests ~ Less Is More ~ The Results

Pharaoh_ · Mar 19, 2013

Your task is to create a low-poly model, which by definition should be consisted of 400 triangles or less.

	AlienAtSystem's Spirit Chakram	Points
Mesh	The mesh looks rather decent, however, it is nothing too impressive. The model could benefit from a few more changes, or something else to stand out and make it special. One thing that sort of bothers me is that the weapon doesn't look 'weaponized' enough. It doesn't look very sharp, since the wooden edges look rather dull.	3/10 points
Animations	The projectile version spins, whereas the attachment model has no animations. Although extremely simple, this is intended, and befitting of the model's role.	3/10 points
UV/Textures	The model uses a few simple Blizzard-made textures. Although they fit with eachother, they are rather boring. I honestly prefered your previous iteration of the model more, as it had a more interesting color scheme. Additionally, there are several wrapping issues on the main mesh of the model - the edges don't connect properly. Although, admittedly, they wouldn't be visible in-game at all.	2/10 points
Creativity	Honestly... I found the idea rather dull. It's a simple attachment\projectile model, obviously intended to fit with the Huntress and Sentry models, with a lightning theme. I've seen this kind of weapon often before, both in Warcraft 3 and outside of it.	2/10 points
Mechanics	All needed mechanics for a projectile model are present. Death sound, spawn sound and even a ribbon emitter.	5/5 points
Effects	I like the lightning effect. It stands out well in-game. The stock projectile ribbon emitter is also there. However, the effects are few, and rather simple.	3/5 points
TOTAL [C]While the model itself is fairly decent, it has a few wrapping mistakes, and is relatively simple. Personally, I think that attachment models are a rather cheap cop-out on the "Less is More" theme. I would've preferred a unit, a building or even a doodad.[C]18/50

	GhostThruster's "MC Hammer"	Points
Mesh	The mesh is well done. The helmet looks like an accurate representation of Master Chief's helmet, which, I assume, was the idea. However... I believe that it could've been done with less polygons, since it is merely an attachment model. As it stands, it's far too round and 'perfect' for Warcraft III. I honestly don't see this model being used often in-game. Additionally, there are several verticles and faces that are invisible in-game, and could have been removed.	4/10 points
Animations	Although the model has no animations whatsoever, that is to be expected of an attachment model.	3/10 points
UV/Textures	The texture, which I assume is hand-drawn, is well made. However, the color scheme is the absolute opposite of Warcraft 3's standard: It is muted, gray, and very unnoticeable in-game. Since the model will be visible from a top-down perspective most of the time, all that is visible is a grayish-green blob and a bit of orange. Additionally, there are a few very minor wrapping issues: One on the visor(the texture connects poorly in the middle), and one on the underside of the 'horns' of the helmet.	6/10 points
Creativity	Recreating the Master Chief's helmet from Halo is not a very creative idea, since you're essentially using someone else's idea and recreating it. Additionally, the same applies as what I said about AlienAtSystem's model: Attachment models are sort of cheap, considering the theme is "Less is More". I can hardly see the "more" part of making a simple attachment model.	1/10 points
Mechanics	All needed mechanics for a projectile model are present... That is to say, none, since this is an attachment model. It functions well in-game, however, and that's all that matters. I did notice a collision box, although I fail to see the use of it.	5/5 points
Effects	The model is completely devoid of any special effects whatsoever. You could've at least added a flashlight or something.	0/5 points
TOTAL [C]Again, while the model is alright, and the mesh is well done, it has a few wrapping mistakes, and is relatively simple. I think that attachment models are a rather cheap cop-out on the "Less is More" theme. A unit, or even a building or a doodad, would've been preferable.[C]19/50

	SuPa-'s Cave Goblin	Points
Mesh	The mesh is evidently expertly crafted. Everything looks great in the model editor, except for the forehead, which I found to be a bit too large\long, and flat. Also, the arms seem a little bit too long, especially compared to the legs, although that might be intentional to demonstrate the goblinoid form. It even has a rather recognizable silhouette in-game, which means you could easily tell when it's a cave goblin(or a horde of 'em!) that's attacking you. However, it does lack some additional details. Most importantly, a weapon. I realize that the idea is that you could simply attach your own weapons, but a weaponless model is not of much use to your average mapmaker, especially since this is not an epic hero or anything, but a simple cave goblin, which will probably serve as a low-tier unit, or a creep. You could have also added in some simple shoulderpads, or a hat, at the expense of some of those polygons that you used in the head, chest, or arms. The loincloth could also have been a lot simpler. A simple triangle would've sufficed, especially with an alpha'd out texture(you could've made a meld between the TC area and the alpha'd out area). Now.... I've made a decision to include your separate portrait file, since it was below the 400 triangle limit, and I feel that it would be unfair towards WhiteDeath's Heavy Trooper if I didn't include the separate portraits, seeing how he didn't include an inbuilt one. I didn't see anything regarding the portrait in the rules, either.	9/10 points
Animations	The animations are very bland and boring. There is little to no variation, and they seem rather stiff. A couple more variations of "Stand" would've really gone a long way, along with a simple "Spell" animation - perhaps a warcry kind of ability? Maybe he could throw a rock? I really liked your idea of a "Walk Fast" animation, but I couldn't get it to work in-game. I might've been doing something wrong, so I won't take away points for that. It looked pretty nice, too. One thing to note, however, is that most animations were rather... Fast. The Attack and Death animations are the chief culprits here. Additionally, the in-model "Portrait Talk" animation doesn't actually have him open his mouth: I was very disappointed in that. Of course, the separate model file rectifies that: The animations are much smoother there. However, I don't feel that the eyes are expressive enough - he just blankly stares, even while he talks, and this makes him feel a bit static and robotic, and not at all evil and beast-like, as he should be(since he's a cave goblin! :O).	6/10 points
UV/Textures	The model uses two very well made, custom, hand-drawn(I assume?) textures - one for the model and one of the portrait. HOWEVER... It doesn't fit the in-game style. Like, at all. And herein, I believe, lies the biggest problem of the model. The texture is very bleak, and white, and the teamcolor is heavily shaded, and very dark. It is nearly impossible to make out any details in-game, because... Well, there aren't any. It's just a white, cave-goblin-shaped blob. The teamcolor is nearly impossible to make out, and that's a big problem - I would've suggested teamcolored shoulderpads or a hat. The loincloth is just not visible enough in-game from a top-down perspective, and you can't see the eyes unless you look at the portrait. All in all, it just sticks out in-game, and that is a big problem. Even the portrait looks pretty strange compared to the other models.	5/10 points
Creativity	I think the idea has a decent amount of creativity in it. It is evidently based on Tolkien-esque cave goblins, with SuPa-'s own twists(teamcolored eyes are pretty sweet). However, it is nothing too special, either. It fits the contest's theme of "Less is More" by demonstrating that 400 triangles are more than enough to create a decent unit model, and a good looking one at that.	6/10 points
Mechanics	I have found that a few key mechanics were missing, or lacking in their execution. The model has no "gutz" bone texture, and therefore, it just slides off into the ground, unrealistically, without leaving behind a corpse. The cameras(both of them) were not placed very well: The in-model portrait camera was at a rather awkward angle, whereas the separate portrait camera was not centered properly, and gave the goblin a bit too much "headroom" - it should've been a bit lower. Blood and footprints were present, although there does seem to be an extra pair of 'footprint' nodes for the Walk Fast animation. This could've been avoided by simply adding the keyframes to the original footprint nodes, instead of creating two additional ones. A portrait was included, along with a team-glow background, which is good. There was also a death sound, although I didn't find it very fitting. The Ghoul's death sound was a bit too long, and a bit too squeaky, compared to how the model's expression looked like and how short the death animation was.	3/5 points
Effects	The model was completely devoid of any effects whatsoever. I would have suggested some team glow("Replaceable ID 2") planes over his eyes. Maybe some dust while he's walking?	0/5 points
TOTAL [C]I really like this model. The mesh and texture are very professional and well-done. I just don't think that it was optimized enough for Warcraft 3, and as a result, well, it sticks out. The animations were rather disappointing, as well.[C]29/50

	Wandering Soul's Shadow Cat	Points
Mesh	The mesh looks fairly good. I can't say that I'm a big fan of that spiked tail, though. It looks a little strange. The legs look like they are very loosely connected to the body, however. The cat looks a bit "stretched out" and too long, and it sort of adapts a few canine features - before I read the name, I actually had trouble understanding whether that's a cat or a wolf. Of course, the tail is a dead give-away, at least if you ignore the spiky part. The ears look a little bit strange, too, and not very cat-like, and the jaw doesn't look connected to the skull at all. All in all, the mesh looks decent, although slightly deformed in a few places.	5/10 points
Animations	Most of the animations are well-made. I am assuming that these are custom, and not taken from a Blizzard model. The "Attack" animations are a bit too abrupt and quick, and they look rather static as well. However, I really like the Walk and Stand animations, as well as Spell Throw - they seem very smooth, and well-made. The death animation... Well, eh. I suppose it makes sense, in case the user wanted to use it as a summoned unit(as was the original intention of the creator), but the "Feral Spirit" spell already comes with a field specifically for that reason called "Art - Special", and this feels like a wasted opportunity. A proper death, with a corpse and all, would've greatly improved the model's usability. There doesn't seem to be any difference between "Portrait" and "Stand", though, which renders the "Portrait" animation useless.	6/10 points
UV/Textures	The model utilizes Blizzard's Shade texture, which, I believe, was a rather difficult texture to work with. The wrap is decent, I suppose, but could definitely use some more work here and there - especially around the head and the teamcolored areas. The teamcolor material should've also been "Unshaded", as is the case with most, if not all, Blizzard models. Although the model looks more 'unified', thanks to the use of a single texture, I definitely believe you could've used a couple more. For instance, you could've used the sacrificial skull texture and tinted it black for the head, and you definitely should've found a better texture for the teamcolored parts - perhaps the teamcolored crystal of the Ziggurat? That might've been interesting. I believe that the Shade texture was never meant for big models(as is evident by it's small size), and even then, the Shade is mostly covered in black smoke particles, which is why this particular texture might not have been the best choice for the entire model.	3/10 points
Creativity	Well, the idea of a shadowy, skeletal cat version of the Dire Wolf(or a similar summoned unit) is rather interesting. There are not a lot of feline models in Warcraft 3 as it is. However, it didn't "blow me away", as one might say. It's a decent idea, but that's about it. It fits with the theme rather well, seeing how summoned units definitely shouldn't have a lot of faces on them as they are, and with an awesome 399 out of 400 triangles used, it's just about qualified.	5/10 points
Mechanics	All needed mechanics are present... However, I personally don't think the Death sound fits too well(the one used is the Naga Myrmidon's), and the decision to use Troll footsteps seems a bit silly to me, seeing how there is an existing "paw" footprint. Additionally, there is no background teamglow in the "Portrait" animation! This is a pretty big thing, as it goes against Blizzard's established standards, and generally degrades the model's in-game appearance.	3/5 points
Effects	Although there seems to be a particle emitter during the "Death" animation, it doesn't seem to show up in-game. I do not know the cause of this, but as a result, the model has no visible effects at all. Personally, I think it would benefit greatly from a lot of team-glow planes, similar to the Spirit Wolf(on the eyes and all over the body), or, a black, shadowy fog all over the body, similar to the Shade. As it is right now, it seems a bit 'empty' and bare. Like I mentioned in the "UV\Textures" part, the Shade texture seems to be meant for a model with particles. The one particle that you did create does not seem to fit very well, at least judging by how it looks like in Magos. but you deserve a point for trying, at least.	1/5 points
TOTAL [C]The model fits the idea of a summoned unit, and looks pretty good. It fits the theme of "Less is More" - in fact, I think a summoned unit is exactly what the saying "Less is More" applies to the most in Warcraft 3. However, the model does contain a few technical flaws, and some of the animations could use some improvement, as well as the mesh and the UV Wrap.[C]23/50

	UgoUgo's Meteor Fly	Points
Mesh	Now... I'm, well, honestly not sure what's going on here. The mesh just seems like a lot of random, flat plates of... Rock, I assume...? And those random plates seem to be connected by... Team-glow. I'm just... Confused. Now, this normally wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but as it is, it looks very random and out-of-place in-game. I'm not even sure how it's supposed to attack! Does it throw fire? Does it stab it's enemies? I honestly have no clue, because of how random it seems! Now, I did really like the mouth area, with the eyes inside of it's mouth, but it is barely visible in-game except for the portrait.	5/10 points
Animations	Now, here, the model really shines. There are a LOT of animations, and they're all quite smooth. As random as the model seems, the animations are well-made. The "Death" animations are pretty sweet: The "fade" at the end of it gives a nice alternative to Blizzard's "explode into bloody bits", seeing how, well, your model doesn't seem like it could actually have any bloody bits in it. "Attack Slam" had me confused for a little while. It seems rather impractical for it to make a spin in the air just to stab someone. Maybe it would've been better as an alternate "Stand" animation? The "Morph" animations are quite interesting, even though, once again... I don't... I can't quite wrap my head about the purpose. Why does it stick out like that? Camouflage? It seems pretty darn visible to me. Maybe on it's native habitat it might look like a part of the environment? I don't even know. However, I really do think that the "Portrait" animations are what makes this model so great. You've made an excellent use of the technique that Blizzard used with the Frost Wyrm's portrait. I really like the starry night appearance, and the eye glow during the "Talk" animations. Sweet stuff there.	8/10 points
UV/Textures	Again, I... Have no idea what's going on. I can't even tell what material that's supposed to be. Green rock? Chitin? Metal? I mean, if I didn't know that was the Infernal's texture you're using, I really wouldn't be able to tell what it is. It just seems so random. Whatever wrap there is seems okay, though. I really like what you did with the mouth. You used a fairly underused texture for the teeth, and you used it very well. It looks cool.	2/10 points
Creativity	Alright. Well. You blew me away. I have no idea what the hell this is supposed to be, so, yeah, I'd say it's pretty creative. :V However, it is pretty... Random. I mean, I'm not saying you should make a footman or anything like that, but it might be a little too MUCH creativity when you really can't tell what it's supposed to be.	7/10 points
Mechanics	All needed mechanics are there. Not even one is missing. As a side note, I like the death sound. It fits well.	5/5 points
Effects	There's a LOT of effects on this model. The teamglow, the fire, the glowy eyes, the portrait backdrops, the dust... As a matter of fact, in some cases, I think it might be a bit too much, as it becomes hard to tell what's actually going on in-game. Also, the fire out of it's backside seems a bit... Random.	3/5 points
TOTAL [C]All in all, I think I can sum this model up as... Random. While it is very creative, obviously, I just can't tell what's going on. The effects and the animations are very good, though, and those are some strong bonus points for the model. As for "Less is More", well... I must say, while "less" might not be "more" in this case, it certainly is "something".[C]30/50

	WhiteDeath's Heavy Trooper	Points
Mesh	Although it does look a little bit crowded, and it's hard to make out what's what in-game, I do think the mesh is very well done. I'm not sure about the laser sight, though; It seems unnecessary, considering this is a heavy trooper. There really don't seem like a lot of need for aim in this situation. Plus, the way it looks a bit "cut" at the middle looks a little strange. It just distracts from the model in-game, and makes it much longer than it should be, causing awkward collision with other objects. The Goblin also doesn't look too stable: The cannon is far too long compared to the rest of the body, and it seems like it would fall over at any second. Of course, this is a goblin we're talking about here, so I suppose that a little lack of realism isn't such a huge problem. ^^ The portrait mesh is extremely well done. I love how you didn't just use the original model's mesh, but you actually added stuff on top of it and edited it to look great as a separate portrait.	9/10 points
Animations	The animations are incredibly well made. They're all very smooth, and play wonderfully. Although it would take a while setting up the proper projectile starting point and animation timing and such for a user in the World Editor, the attack animations still feel pretty good, and very "powerful", indeed. The "Stand Channel" animation is my favorite on the model itself - just spray and pray with a huge-ass Goblin cannon! All of the animations just "feel" very good, although I am slightly unsure about how well they hold up in-game. The "Death" animation is also pretty epic, HOWEVER, you really should've included "Decay" animations. The "Portrait" animations are my overall favorites, however. They are EXTREMELY well done. Probably the best I've ever seen in Warcraft 3. I LOVE how the helmet opens up as part of a global sequence, which gives it a rather 'random' feel. I love all the spinning and moving parts: They really remind me of Starcraft II. In particular, I'm thinking about the M.U.L.E's portrait here. It's just... Well, I really have no words to express how awesome and well done this portrait is. Great job! ...Although, one very minor thing to note is that the animation doesn't reset at the end of "Portrait Talk - 2" and "Portrait Talk - 3". It's not too noticeable, but you could've reset the keyframes there to avoid that sort of glitchy appearance.	10/10 points
UV/Textures	I was never a huge fan of the Tinker Tank texture, but eh, I suppose there really is not that many other futuristic\mechanical textures one could use. A few parts from the marine\chaos space orc textures really wouldn't have hurt for some variation, though, because it looks a bit like a gray blob with a big cannon in-game. It's incredibly difficult to make out any details, because it's basically all the same texture. The wrap is great, though - I see no flaws with it.	6/10 points
Creativity	A goblin heavy gunner, inside a fortified "bunker" power suit, with a huge-ass cannon sticking out in front of it. I'd say that's pretty creative. Of course, the overused Tinker Tank texture sort of ruins it a little bit.	7/10 points
Mechanics	Most needed mechanics are present, as well as a few extra ones. The Death sounds are excellent, in particular. The chain of explosions fits really well... HOWEVER. There are no proper "Decay" animations, and the model doesn't actually disappear upon death, which looks really bad in-game. A "Decay" animation would've gone a long way in this model.	3/5 points
Effects	There's plenty of effects on this model. Explosive flashes during the "Attack" and "Spell" animations, light gray exhaust added with a Geoset Sequence, as well as black, smoggy exhaust during the "Walk" animation, a laser sight, red glow around the 'eye'... And they all fit exceedingly well with eachother and the model. There is no overcluttering of effects visible at any point. In my opinion, the Death looks especially awesome.	5/5 points
TOTAL [C]This model shows exactly what "Less is More" means. It accomplishes so freaking much, all at 400 triangles and under. It's just excellent all around, even though there are a few very minor mistakes, and despite of the overused Tinker Tank texture.[C]40/50

AlienAtSystem		MESH 3/10 ANIMATIONS 4/10 UV/SKIN 8/10 CREATIVITY 4/10 MECHANICS 4/5 EFFECTS 4/5 Total: 22/50 Seeing a projectile model, as well as fitting attachment to it, is quite uncommon, yet quite a nice idea. The execution of mesh and animations, at such level of simplicity, is good. The effects however might have more variation in more different particles rather than just one.
GhostThruster		MESH 8/10 ANIMATIONS 1/10 UV/SKIN 9/10 CREATIVITY 8/10 MECHANICS 4/5 EFFECTS 0/5 Total: 30/50 This attachment model is quite good looking and has a very good mesh and custom texture. You put much effort in composing the artistic parts. However the model is 'just' and attachment and therefore lacks any effects.
SuPa-		MESH 10/10 ANIMATIONS 10/10 UV/SKIN 10/10 CREATIVITY 9/10 MECHANICS 3/5 EFFECTS 0/5 Total: 42/50 A typical SuPa- model - great mesh, great animations and great custom skin. You can seemly feel this little fellow. One big negative on this model is that there are no major effects. It would have been very good to see some interesting particle effects on it. Also it is quite hard to select the model and interact with it in the World Editor.
UgoUgo		MESH 8/10 ANIMATIONS 10/10 UV/SKIN 8/10 CREATIVITY 10/10 MECHANICS 4/5 EFFECTS 4/5 Total: 44/50 Holy moley! When I first saw that model I had no idea what it might be. The mesh and animations are superb, yet the mesh does not feel entirely Wc3-ish and the texture is a bit too dull in some spots. I really love how you implemented the alternate animations. There a some minor flaws here and there, like some UV mapping issues on the arms of the model as well and the fact that the lower part of the tail looks too misplaced. The fading effect on death does, on my opinion, not really fit quite right. Furthermore the effects are good, but sometimes less is more.
Wandering Soul		MESH 7/10 ANIMATIONS 6/10 UV/SKIN 6/10 CREATIVITY 8/10 MECHANICS 3/5 EFFECTS 0/5 Total: 30/50 Dark Meow sound Hellish feling model with a great mesh and good animations and skin application. Very creative and through-thought design. What I don't like on this model that the animations are a bit too blocky, especially attack, and that the UV mapping is quite messy in some spots. There are also no effects.
WhiteDeath		MESH 8/10 ANIMATIONS 7/10 UV/SKIN 7/10 CREATIVITY 8/10 MECHANICS 2/5 EFFECTS 4/5 Total: 36/50 A cool gunned walker thingy with goblin content. The mesh, animations, effects and UV-mapping are great. The biggest problem is the death animation. The model should disappear at the end of the death animation, which is Wc3 standard.

Scores

AlienAtSystem: 22 + 18/50 = 40/100
GhostThruster: 30 + 19/50 = 49/100
SuPa-: 29 + 42/50 = 71/100
UgoUgo: 44 + 30/50 = 74/100
Wandering Soul: 30 + 23/50 = 53/100
WhiteDeath: 36 + 40/50 = 76/100

The winner is WhiteDeath with a reward of 40 reputation points! UgoUgo, SuPa-, Wandering Soul, GhostThruster and AlienAtSystem will receive 10 reputation points (placed in ranking order)!
Deolrin and Frankster will also receive 10 reputation points for their contribution as judges!

[Original Contest]

GhostThruster · Mar 19, 2013

fun contest, great judging, congratz to whitedeath, super ocngratz to my free 10 rep!

Wandering Soul · Mar 19, 2013

Congratulation to WhiteDeath for winning this competition, and to all who participate...

Hopefully there is another Modeling Contest in the weeks/months to come...

SuPa- · Mar 20, 2013

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Deolrin's judging of my model is complete bullshit.

But congratulations to everyone who participated!

Pharaoh_ · Mar 20, 2013

SuPa- said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Deolrin's judging of my model is complete bullshit.

But congratulations to everyone who participated!

Please, explain.

SuPa- · Mar 20, 2013

It kind've speaks for itself really. All you have to do is view my model and then look at his judging. It doesn't matter though at this point.

But I'll explain anyway.

First off, he gave my animations a 6/10, while giving WhiteDeath's a 10/10. My animations for the model aren't great or anything, but compare the models side by side and they're pretty much on par animation wise. Some of his are far clunkier, but he gets away with it simply because his is a robot and that makes it okay. He then goes on to give my model's texture a 5/10? The textures for the model and portrait are extremely well done. After that, he gives me a 0/5 for effects, while stating just after that that the model has blood and sound effects, while also having footsteps. His judging is also full of meaningless and highly subjective nitpicks.

Kyrbi0 · Mar 20, 2013

I don't remember; was 'fitting in Wc3' a contest pre-requisite? If not, then I agree for the most part (since that seemed to be the bulk of his problem). If so, then while I loved the Cave Goblin immensely (esp. the texture), I have to err a bit on the other side.

Good job to all who entered, and congrats to WhiteDeath! That guy's got potential.

Abelhawk · Mar 20, 2013

Is there a way to actually see the submissions? Like is there a gallery or anything?
Sorry if the answer is obvious. I've never had what it takes to enter a contest so I haven't really looked into them that much.

General Frank · Mar 20, 2013

Abelhawk said:
Is there a way to actually see the submissions? Like is there a gallery or anything?
Sorry if the answer is obvious. I've never had what it takes to enter a contest so I haven't really looked into them that much.

Just open the hidden thingy of my judging. I've attached images of all submissions.

GhostThruster · Mar 20, 2013

@abelhawk: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/2279061-post74.html

@supa: 25% of judging is following the criteria. the rest is subjectivity.

Deolrin · Mar 20, 2013

SuPa- said:
It kind've speaks for itself really. All you have to do is view my model and then look at his judging. It doesn't matter though at this point.

But I'll explain anyway.

First off, he gave my animations a 6/10, while giving WhiteDeath's a 10/10. My animations for the model aren't great or anything, but compare the models side by side and they're pretty much on par animation wise. Some of his are far clunkier, but he gets away with it simply because his is a robot and that makes it okay. He then goes on to give my model's texture a 5/10? The textures for the model and portrait are extremely well done. After that, he gives me a 0/5 for effects, while stating just after that that the model has blood and sound effects, while also having footsteps. His judging is also full of meaningless and highly subjective nitpicks.

I'm sorry if I have offended you.
I'll try to explain the reasoning behind some of my decisions. First of all, I really did find your animations quite static, and there were very, very few of them. Several key animations were missing. I found WhiteDeath's animations to be a lot smoother, and, to be honest, not clanky at all. It had nothing to do with his model being a 'robot'. They just felt more dynamic and 'alive' to me. You really could 'feel' the recoil as it shoots. Plus, there were a lot more of them than there were on your model.
As I have stated in the review, while both the mesh and the texture are extremely well done and professionally crafted, the texture does not fit well with the rest of the models in WarCraft III, which is a key aspect of any model. After all, the model is to be used in WC3, not in Crysis. If a model sticks out like a sore thumb in-game, its usability degrades. The lack of teamcolor in a visible spot(I had about 24 goblins owned by various players in my test map, and I really couldn't tell to whom most of them belonged because the loincloth is so obscured, and the eyes are so minor) is obviously another degrading factor.
I consider footprints, spawn objects, blood splats and such a part of "Mechanics", not "Effects". They are a requirement for most models in Warcraft III(each in its own unique way), and not a bonus objective, such as effects.
Again, I am sorry if you found my judging offensive, unfair or inappropriate. It was never my intention.

Kyrbi0 said:
I don't remember; was 'fitting in Wc3' a contest pre-requisite?

I consider "fitting in Wc3" a necessary pre-requisuite in any Warcraft III modeling contest. The fact that models that didn't fit in WC3 at all, but were very detailed\well made won most contests, whereas models that fit in WC3 extremely well, but weren't as technically impressive, or 'cool', placed low in most modeling contests in the past is what pushed me towards trying to judge contests in the first place. Back in the day, the modeling contests were pretty much 'ruled' by a council of a few modelers(whom I shall not name), and most things were decided in accordance to them(like who will judge a contest, or what will the contest's theme be, although the latter was somewhat more democratic towards the end of their 'reign'). And the way I remember it, the super-highly-detailed models that could never fit in the game properly almost always won.
In my opinion, the most important factor regarding a WC3 model is how well it fits in the game. If a model doesn't fit in the game, no sane map maker will use it, since it ruins the map's aesthethic. The only exception is when there is a huge pack of similarly-styled models - that is, enough for a whole map.

UgoUgo · Mar 20, 2013

2 scores D:, I'll get you next time WhiteDeath! Just you wait! Good contest, congratulations to everyone. I really enjoyed it as I have learned how to create custom mesh etc. Sorry about the mesh, Im not really good at creating it. But glad the anims managed to backup my scores

General Frank · Mar 20, 2013

UgoUgo said:
2 scores D:, I'll get you next time WhiteDeath! Just you wait! Good contest, congratulations to everyone. I really enjoyed it as I have learned how to create custom mesh etc. Sorry about the mesh, Im not really good at creating it. But glad the anims managed to backup my scores

It's not abut the mesh.
It's about sending a message.

UgoUgo · Mar 20, 2013

Heh wanted to make something that has no resemblance to any game.
I might be able to think something better next time.
On to next competition!

SuPa- · Mar 20, 2013

"Very, very few" animations? Did you even view my model? My model has 11 animations, not counting the Decay Bone which is just there for bug-fixing purposes. You then have the audacity to say that WhiteDeath's has more. His model does not. It has 10. My portrait model also has four animations of its own, all which work very nicely. My model is an organic biped, while his is a mechanical walking cannon. Mine is more complex to model and animate. His is simple to model and very easy to animate. Not to mention mine has a very well made texture for both the model and the portrait.

My goblin didn't need any other effects. Your glowing eye suggestion was just tacky.

Deolrin · Mar 20, 2013

Please, SuPa-. I understand that you might be a bit frustrated, but I have no wish to argue.
I did not count your Portrait animations when I said your model has few animations. Your 'Decay' animations function in-game poorly. Walk Fast doesn't seem to trigger, either. In practice, WhiteDeath's model has more animations. I don't feel like I have to justify myself to you.
So you didn't like my suggestion. That's fine. That doesn't change the fact that your model has no effects. Do you expect me to give you points for nothing?

General Frank · Mar 20, 2013

Can't we stop arguing and start behaving like honest men with balls?
Seriously now!

PROXY · Mar 20, 2013

Congratulations to the winners.

SuPa- · Mar 20, 2013

Justifying your judging is part of being a judge. But your modeling opinion as a person doesn't really matter to me considering your capabilities as a modeler.

JesusHipster · Mar 20, 2013

What a cool chakram. It is so simple, but so flawless <3

Pharaoh_ · Mar 20, 2013

SuPa- said:
Justifying your judging is part of being a judge. But your modeling opinion as a person doesn't really matter to me considering your capabilities as a modeler.

Please, do not become offensive. If you have any arguments regarding his capabilities as a modeller and by extension as someone unable to judge a modelling contest, refer to me. You were accusing him earlier of subjectivity and you are now victimizing him under your subjective opinion.
In my humble opinion, I do not see anywhere how his capabilities as a modeller interfered or even impeded him to provide efficient reviews nor I can spot lack of experience in his statements. Therefore, the only thing that should concern you as a contestant is the review itself.

Additionally, I want to mention something about the 'subjectivity' rule that everyone seems to throw in discussions a lot lately. Regardless of what you think, subjectivity exist and should exist. This is a reason why we have two judges instead of one. Despite the technical details that are bound to objectivity rules, the rest is totally up to the judge's point of view. Each judge has a different background, experience and stimuli than another and this is exactly why we may see many variations and differences among their reviews.

JesusHipster · Mar 20, 2013

By the way in my opinion -Supa is the winner. No offence or anything, but his model is better then others. And high particle emiter count doesn't mean the effects are good.

WhiteDeath · Mar 20, 2013

I won!

to everybody.
To SuPa- :vw_wtf:

why all the hate towards my model that is very undignified, UgoUgo's model also had more points than yours how about some hating for him huh?
Seriously this is just a contest its not like your life ends just because you did not win. There is no shame in loosing if you gave it your best, there is however shame in loosing without dignity.
P.S. Notice how I did not rip on your model(hard work) because it would be demeaning.

SuPa- · Mar 20, 2013

WhiteDeath, I don't care about winning and I don't hate your model. I was using your model as comparison to mine to try and prove points to Deolrin because of the drastic difference he made in our scores, but I apologize for any offense. Your model is in no way bad and I quite like it.

General Frank · Mar 20, 2013

Then please, for the sake of having balls and dignity, cut the bullshit.

Marcos DAB · Mar 24, 2013

JesusHipster said:
By the way in my opinion -Supa is the winner. No offence or anything, but his model is better then others. And high particle emiter count doesn't mean the effects are good.

This.

Pyramidhe@d · Mar 24, 2013

do you guys realize how long this laptop takes to boot up? a long time, i assure you. and when's the last time i've posted here? a long time, i assure you. i got linked this from another chat and i HAD to come here to show some third party perspective.

SuPa-'s Cave Goblin Points

Mesh
The mesh is evidently expertly crafted. Everything looks great in the model editor, except for the forehead, which I found to be a bit too large\long, and flat. Also, the arms seem a little bit too long, especially compared to the legs, although that might be intentional to demonstrate the goblinoid form. It even has a rather recognizable silhouette in-game, which means you could easily tell when it's a cave goblin(or a horde of 'em!) that's attacking you. However, it does lack some additional details. Most importantly, a weapon. I realize that the idea is that you could simply attach your own weapons, but a weaponless model is not of much use to your average mapmaker, especially since this is not an epic hero or anything, but a simple cave goblin, which will probably serve as a low-tier unit, or a creep. You could have also added in some simple shoulderpads, or a hat, at the expense of some of those polygons that you used in the head, chest, or arms. The loincloth could also have been a lot simpler. A simple triangle would've sufficed, especially with an alpha'd out texture(you could've made a meld between the TC area and the alpha'd out area).
Now.... I've made a decision to include your separate portrait file, since it was below the 400 triangle limit, and I feel that it would be unfair towards WhiteDeath's Heavy Trooper if I didn't include the separate portraits, seeing how he didn't include an inbuilt one. I didn't see anything regarding the portrait in the rules, either.
9/10
points

Animations
The animations are very bland and boring. There is little to no variation, and they seem rather stiff. A couple more variations of "Stand" would've really gone a long way, along with a simple "Spell" animation - perhaps a warcry kind of ability? Maybe he could throw a rock?
I really liked your idea of a "Walk Fast" animation, but I couldn't get it to work in-game. I might've been doing something wrong, so I won't take away points for that. It looked pretty nice, too.
One thing to note, however, is that most animations were rather... Fast. The Attack and Death animations are the chief culprits here.
Additionally, the in-model "Portrait Talk" animation doesn't actually have him open his mouth: I was very disappointed in that. Of course, the separate model file rectifies that: The animations are much smoother there. However, I don't feel that the eyes are expressive enough - he just blankly stares, even while he talks, and this makes him feel a bit static and robotic, and not at all evil and beast-like, as he should be(since he's a cave goblin! :O).
6/10
points

UV/Textures
The model uses two very well made, custom, hand-drawn(I assume?) textures - one for the model and one of the portrait. HOWEVER... It doesn't fit the in-game style. Like, at all. And herein, I believe, lies the biggest problem of the model. The texture is very bleak, and white, and the teamcolor is heavily shaded, and very dark. It is nearly impossible to make out any details in-game, because... Well, there aren't any. It's just a white, cave-goblin-shaped blob. The teamcolor is nearly impossible to make out, and that's a big problem - I would've suggested teamcolored shoulderpads or a hat. The loincloth is just not visible enough in-game from a top-down perspective, and you can't see the eyes unless you look at the portrait. All in all, it just sticks out in-game, and that is a big problem. Even the portrait looks pretty strange compared to the other models.
5/10
points

Creativity
I think the idea has a decent amount of creativity in it. It is evidently based on Tolkien-esque cave goblins, with SuPa-'s own twists(teamcolored eyes are pretty sweet). However, it is nothing too special, either. It fits the contest's theme of "Less is More" by demonstrating that 400 triangles are more than enough to create a decent unit model, and a good looking one at that.
6/10
points

Mechanics
I have found that a few key mechanics were missing, or lacking in their execution. The model has no "gutz" bone texture, and therefore, it just slides off into the ground, unrealistically, without leaving behind a corpse. The cameras(both of them) were not placed very well: The in-model portrait camera was at a rather awkward angle, whereas the separate portrait camera was not centered properly, and gave the goblin a bit too much "headroom" - it should've been a bit lower. Blood and footprints were present, although there does seem to be an extra pair of 'footprint' nodes for the Walk Fast animation. This could've been avoided by simply adding the keyframes to the original footprint nodes, instead of creating two additional ones. A portrait was included, along with a team-glow background, which is good. There was also a death sound, although I didn't find it very fitting. The Ghoul's death sound was a bit too long, and a bit too squeaky, compared to how the model's expression looked like and how short the death animation was.
3/5
points

Effects
The model was completely devoid of any effects whatsoever. I would have suggested some team glow("Replaceable ID 2") planes over his eyes. Maybe some dust while he's walking?
0/5
points

TOTAL
[C]I really like this model. The mesh and texture are very professional and well-done. I just don't think that it was optimized enough for Warcraft 3, and as a result, well, it sticks out. The animations were rather disappointing, as well.[C]29/50

Now. From the top

Animation 6/10
Right from the start. Those animations? Definitely not 6. You know what 5 is? it is when it just barely considered average. Functional. Something that just gets rated as "Is Useful". 6 is something that does a little bit better but not much. 7 is an okay with a positive tone. 8 is good, 9 is great and 10 is goddamn great. Straight off. without real analysis, i would just say 7. Could say 8 after further inspection. Some animations could TAD bit more organic. But I wouldnt call them stiff.

One thing to note, however, is that most animations were rather... Fast. The Attack and Death animations are the chief culprits here.

Unlike warcraft models with weapons that are legth of their body, these things hold small one handed weapons. And why would someone use a small one handed weapon? cos they are light and fast. Do you see the correlation? Now, I think what you were MEANT to say is that there is barely any swingback time. Cos I've compared the actual swing speed with a footman. The actual speed of the motion comparable. What the animation lacks is a considerable swingback, both before and after the actual attack which gives the impression that the whole animation is super fast. Don't just say the animation is super fast. Explain it.
Considering death animation. These things are meant to be cannon fodders. They are meant to be killed by the thousands. For something like that, you dont need master grade death animations. They just need to die. They just need to fall down. They dont need a death gasp and an lunge and a twitch and a seizure. You should have judged the model according to its purpose and nothing more.

UV/Textures 5/10
Now...here is what I like to call a "too good for Warcraft 3" situation. A criterion that always pops up is "is it warcraft looking" which defeats the whole purpose of a contest. In a contest, you want to look as best as you want. But by current time standards, to look like warcraft, you want to look as crappy as possible. Now was "fitting in to the warcraft 3" an actual criterion this time around? It usually is. Lemme see the original contest thread...well. I was wrong. Looks like there wasnt even a set criterion in the contest post. Anyways, that aside. The contest only asks for a low poly model. No style, no genre, no type of model(atttachment, unit, effect). So it makes little sense that you penalised for not looking warcraft. I know you argued with me time and time again that this is a warcraft 3 modding website. And time and time again, I tell you that warcraft 3 is in the past. In the dust. People need to head to the future. None of this "look like warcraft 3" nonsense. You need to understand that Warcraft 3 is merely a stepping stone towards something bigger and better. And to tie down someone's ability at this level is idiotic. Moving on from that. Yeah, the team colour is terrible. But ya. once again, a fodder unit. Probably dont need team colour cos its going to be a shitty NPC. The team colour is more like an afterthought with these types of things. Also, a different colour placement defeats the concept. Which is the Hobbit cave goblin. If the thing had shoulderpads, it breaks lotr lore and therefore becomes useless cos as you mentioned, its not Warcrafty. You cannot penalise here for following the original concept here and then penalise again in the part for creativity.

Creativity 6/10
What I just said on top applies here.

Mechanics

I have found that a few key mechanics were missing, or lacking in their execution. The model has no "gutz" bone texture, and therefore, it just slides off into the ground, unrealistically, without leaving behind a corpse.

did you mean to say..."gutz" bone animation? The point that this is a fodder unit once again applies here. do you know what happens if a footman model keeps on dying by the truck-loads? Bad things. Corpse models actually do count as models. And they take processing powers. Less is more, once again. And not to mention that it adds to the overall poly count. Poly count is 394. To decrease the quality of the main model so he could have a corpse model would have not added much value to the model.

Effects 0/5
Now here is my real concern. Considering that this contest didnt have a criteria, how was one suppose to account for effects? Ghostthruster for example. Made an attachment. Save for an axe on fire, how often do you see attachments with effects added on top? Less is more. Do you even grasp the concept behind that saying? By not putting unnecessary things, you un-clutter and you achieve the biggest amount of good with the least amount of resources. He COULD have added particle emitter. but really, did he need to?

There is also this for Ghostthruster.
"Animation : Although the model has no animations whatsoever, that is to be expected of an attachment model. 3/5"
Why is it then, when an attachment is not really expected to have effects, is he penalised for not having effects? This applies to Supa- as well.

--------------------------------
What I see as an overarching problem is this. supa- has gotten 6/10 for his animation because according to the context of his own model, it wasnt organic enough. Whitedeath got 10/10 for his animation because according to the context of his own model, it was good enough. ie. its anims were for mechanical so is good enough. However, supa- then gotten 5/10 according to the context of fitting in to Warcraft 3. You dont switch between the contexts of the criterias. You either judge the model on its own merits or you tell people and then judge it against a chosen criteria/context. You cant do both without telling. Telling before hand is the most important part.

other than that. deolrin's judging on supa-: meh. 3/5 May be useful.
--------------------------------
i wish there was an easy way to view on the models. for a more even balanced view. but going through every thread pages? aint nobody got time for dat. Frankster's screenshots were at least considerate. which is good.

I think why everyone is telling supa- to basically stfu is because no one is judging the judges. and supa- hasnt made himself very clear on the first time around which just made everyone edgey.

In my humble opinion, I do not see anywhere how his capabilities as a modeller interfered or even impeded him to provide efficient reviews nor I can spot lack of experience in his statements.

if deolrin was better modeller than supa-, then getting a criticism from him will be understandable. Its like as if an architect student who just graduated say that the Eiffel Tower is a heap of junk. With that aside. Being able to judge and being able to model is a two separate thing. For example, Frankster's models are rated as among the good ones. Hell. He is a wll known wc3 modding vet that has been here from beginning to now. But that of his judging is kinda crap. Not gonna lie. Should really go in to more details next time for each category. I've had someone give me a review a bit more worse than this before and i just flat out told them that it sucked.

nor I can spot lack of experience

I dont know. last time i was here, you were not a modeller. its like how i cant tell DSG that his coding sucks. nor would i be able to tell if it sucked or not. Its not a personal insult to you. It's just how it is. And if more of the old modellers were here, the ones who deolrin-shall-not-name being among them, they would prolly tell you the same thing. It's a credibility issue, really. That's why we always got modellers to host.

Then please, for the sake of having balls and dignity, cut the bullshit.

i dunno...losing unfairly sounds pretty undignifying. and only a person without balls will just take it like it is.

PS: i've re-read mentions of a criteria again... and i still cant find it. maybe i've missed it somewhere. where is it?

by the way....where was the voting for this?

PPS: better sleep. may have mistakes. will rectify tomorrow...perhaps.

Kyrbi0 · Mar 25, 2013

Delicious contention.

It seems like the criterion of "for Warcraft 3" or "not" is a big sticking point here. While I side with Deolrin (it's a Wc3modding website) (for purely selfish reasons; I like to mod for Wc3, I want to see/have resources that can fit in Wc3, etc), without it being stated somewhere, it's kinda hard to tell.

Pharaoh_ · Mar 25, 2013

Pyramidhe@d said:
if deolrin was better modeller than supa-, then getting a criticism from him will be understandable. Its like as if an architect student who just graduated say that the Eiffel Tower is a heap of junk. With that aside. Being able to judge and being able to model is a two separate thing. For example, Frankster's models are rated as among the good ones. Hell. He is a wll known wc3 modding vet that has been here from beginning to now. But that of his judging is kinda crap. Not gonna lie. Should really go in to more details next time for each category. I've had someone give me a review a bit more worse than this before and i just flat out told them that it sucked.

I dont know. last time i was here, you were not a modeller. its like how i cant tell DSG that his coding sucks. nor would i be able to tell if it sucked or not. Its not a personal insult to you. It's just how it is. And if more of the old modellers were here, the ones who deolrin-shall-not-name being among them, they would prolly tell you the same thing. It's a credibility issue, really. That's why we always got modellers to host.

i dunno...losing unfairly sounds pretty undignifying. and only a person without balls will just take it like it is.

PS: i've re-read mentions of a criteria again... and i still cant find it. maybe i've missed it somewhere. where is it?

by the way....where was the voting for this?

Not that I took your statements the wrong way nor I am offended by them, at all, however I wanted to back me up nonetheless.

"if deolrin was better modeller than supa-, then getting a criticism from him will be understandable"

This has nothing to do with who is better than whom. A proper judge is someone that would give criticism, in a creative way, about the technical and creative aspects of the object that they are going to judge. It's the opinion that we value most of all, not the person, because the latter becomes too subjective. I could not possibly find a judge that would be great for everyone, because everyone will have a different opinion on the judge as a person.

Therefore, the output analysis will be universally given, regardless of what people think about the judge. Also, to get things straight, if I were Deolrin, I would certainly be offended by any of the accusations that were addressed at this late hour, granted that he has also been asked to join the staff as a Model Moderator.

As for the judging criteria, I am trying not to repeat mistakes of the past and I really consider that the latest judges emerge with much more creative reviews (not that I didn't find older judges creative, but at least not all of them). By creativity I mean giving suggestions on top of the criticism. So, as you mentioned, being a judge is a different thing than being able to model. Proof of experience is enough for me to evaluate the potential of a judge, along with the way one judges. If he had no experience whatsoever, I wouldn't assign him anyway, but just because you or SuPa- don't find his art of higher quality, it doesn't exclude him from being an effective judge either.

Also, I find it unfair that you basically "edit" Deolrin's reviews, just because you have a different opinion than his. If you wanted to judge, you could only throw me a pm. However, given that you are a bit inactive in the forums (a reason why you don't know that Mini-Contests have no polls for the public), I can only see your statements stirring up further fuss. You want my opinion? I also thought that SuPa-'s model was a clear winner, but that's only because I have no experience to make out the technical details, but really, you give criteria for everything; first being who is deemed qualified to judge, second being who is the qualified modeller and third who should be the host. If you were around, you would notice that without me hosting, there would be no modelling contest at all -mostly because the most active modellers are gone-, which leaves no space for focusing on every possible detail about the "perfect" candidates.

Returning to the criteria thing, mini-contests are much more flexible in terms of criteria than the Arena contests. The judges are able to follow a certain pattern (Arena's), if they are uncertain of pointing things out themselves, along with giving their very own touches in their reviews (e.g. add criteria that they think they are important). It's funny when you actually speak of warcraftish look, when it has always been a criterion -and from your experience as an Icon moderator, you should know that to your very core-. As for the fast animations, you may bring up a very considerable arguments about the light weight of the weapons, but you also forget that for the anatomy they refer to (a giant cave troll - You may also argue about the actual race of the model, which may be a goblin, but from my stimuli all these years from movies and games alike, I find this to be a troll; Lord of the Rings has had an almost identical concept, while League of Legends also features a troll who is more magnificent in size, compared to human models), they should be slower, given that the moves of such a creature, compared to a small footman would be a lot less flexible.
"Considering that this contest didnt have a criteria, how was one suppose to account for effects?"; I don't see why you only address that to Deolrin, when Frankster added it in his own reviews either. From past contests, one should very well know that effects are taken into consideration. Particle emitters was a suggestion, an observation, if you want, not some mandatory expectation.

Finally, I would want to mention that I am not trying to get into a discussion about the way everything is run, neither I am trying to prove you wrong or anything.

I3lackDeath · Mar 26, 2013

Why exactly is the discussion augmented like this?
Suck it up, take the results as they are, and move on.

SuPa-'s abilities surpass what Warcraft 3 can handle - it's fit for completely different settings and therefore, expectations. Good for him, and he is very well aware of what he can do. (Note that this does NOT compare his skills to those of the other contestants. It's a statement of facts.)

We are by far no "professional" modelling site, but we try our best to support everyone in various aspects, and this was a mini-contest, for god's sake.
Getting worked up over something this trivial is beyond me.

Maybe you (generally speaking, not talking to anyone specificly) have been "misjudged". Maybe all of this seems unfair to you.
But: focus on the less trivial, and thus more important, aspects.
If you know you are good at something, why give other people's "judgings" so much power over you?
They are anything but ultimate - 10 judges will come up with 10 different results and reasons.
Take whatever feedback/opinion you are provided with, and try to include them into your thought process. Improve, evolve, both artistically aswell as a person.

THIS should be the essence of (especially Hive) (Mini-)Contests, or at least a big part of it.

HappyCockroach · Mar 26, 2013

EXCUSE ME BUT I WILL JUDGE THE JUDGES.

Both made a judging that left quite too much to desire, specially Deolrin.

Judging effects doesn't mean to judge how MANY effects are there. (and I said this a couple of times already, to Deolrin directly) It means ONLY to judge - do this model is good enough regarding its effects?. Then it might be:

- Yes, it has good-looking and suitable effects
- Yes, although it has little effects it doesn't need them
- No, it is overdone and crowded, too many and too bad quality.
- No, it lacks effects therefore looks empty and disconnected.

PS: lol, I didn't see the page 2. The discussion was took way farther than I expected, I'll post nevertheless...

GhostThruster · Mar 26, 2013

why does everyone care so much? like supa, your honour may be hurt, but fuck it. you only lost 40 rep. if you really want, ill rep u ten times so u can have it. plus dont listen to debode, hes dumb. debode, dont listen to people who call u dumb, judging is meant to be subjective and i think u did a sound job. pyramidhead, of all the things to come back for, you choose a minimodelling contest with like 5 contestants. i feel like u came back only to attack debode at the command of the c00l gang at deviantart, whom ive seen before argue with debode all the time. i agree on some points u raise, like the 'for warcraft' criteria imposed by judges, but the rest seems as subjective as debode's judging itself. im not biased nor do i like debode, in fact i got second last in judging, so plz dont call me a kiss ass or anything.

Pyramidhe@d · Mar 26, 2013

pyramidhead, of all the things to come back for, you choose a minimodelling contest with like 5 contestants. i feel like u came back only to attack debode at the command of the c00l gang at deviantart

well. to be quite honest, i had heaps of opportunities where i could have just slipped back in. like the thread discussing all those other threads and users that somehow dont exist anymore. and new changes being made, new mods being placed. but thats mostly administration and i didnt have business with the administration. but i do have businesses with modelling. and a contest nonetheless. as for the c00l gang. no one remembers this place anymore and i just got linked here by a third party showing all the butthurt on both sides. i didnt think anyone was supporting supa-'s side of view so i decided to pitch in as a fellow modeller whom i have greate respect for his skills. its no c00l gang agenda here. just my own "professional" agenda.

"if deolrin was better modeller than supa-, then getting a criticism from him will be understandable"

This has nothing to do with who is better than whom. A proper judge is someone that would give criticism, in a creative way, about the technical and creative aspects of the object that they are going to judge... contd

and that is all correct. no denying it. but people are people. and the judged would swallow the critique a bit better if they thought the judge was someone superior to themselves. i am merely pointing this out as a psychological point of view. i dont let a homeless man judge my behaviour, i dont let my neighbour judge my behaviour. i let god judge my behaviour. (as a note. no. i am not religious and this is just hypothetically speaking)

and psychologically speaking, it would be in the best interest for the community if indeed someone really really good at modelling judged. it promotes confidence in the authoritive position(the host/mods) as well as the system and thus, it promotes further contests to take place. like all things, consumers take to products if they are confident in it. i know i said good modeller != good judge and vice versa. but a good judge may not be the best judge for the situations. that's why frankster is an appropriate judge.

It's funny when you actually speak of warcraftish look, when it has always been a criterion -and from your experience as an Icon moderator, you should know that to your very core-.

I don't see why you only address that to Deolrin, when Frankster added it in his own reviews either. From past contests, one should very well know that effects are taken into consideration. Particle emitters was a suggestion, an observation, if you want, not some mandatory expectation.

but we've always(or at least i hope it was always) STATED the criterias. people needs solid statements. you cant just imply something and expect people to know that they will be penalised for not putting on an effect. what happens to new people? to younger modellers who never went in a contest? its not just new people. what's to say people dont forget. you cant just assume that everyone knows what they are doing. you need to cover all bases so shit like this doesnt have an excuse to pop up. why? cos people obviously spend time and effort on these things. and the chances are, people would get offended if they deem the justifications for low scores to be not enough. its not the score that pisses people off. it is the feeling of being unjustly ripped off(+the fact that they lost. but its the unjust ripping that's the main part). having a list of desired things is also an indirect way to make people better themselves. make sure they know all the options. and is also a checklist. i follow criteria checklist when modelling normally, pretty much in that order show. mesh, animation, texture, mechanics/effects. just makes sure i dont leave anything that could be utilised.

if I were Deolrin, I would certainly be offended by any of the accusations that were addressed at this late hour

good. i hope he does get offended. and really angry at me. and i hope being angry pushes him into not stagnate his modelling skills. i hope he angrily churns out some models. if he gets angry about this and decides to better himself, then its doubly admirable for him. its not a good way to encourage someone. but it may be a necessary way.

something unrelated to this contest

a giant cave troll - You may also argue about the actual race of the model, which may be a goblin

the title says it is a goblin. trolls in the hobbit also have a different physique(lack of muscle mass and a more prominent gut) than the model and from looking, i would call this more of a goblin. your point on the thing being a less flexible than human does bring up a good point though

Kyrbi0 · Mar 26, 2013

Pyramidhe@d said:
and psychologically speaking, it would be in the best interest for the community if indeed someone really really good at modelling judged. it promotes confidence in the authoritive position(the host/mods) as well as the system and thus, it promotes further contests to take place. like all things, consumers take to products if they are confident in it. i know i said good modeller != good judge and vice versa. but a good judge may not be the best judge for the situations. that's why frankster is an appropriate judge.

(To All) It might be ideal, it might not. I've found that in the artistic fields, often just about anyone can tell you what's wrong with a piece of art (especially if it's the human form; difficult to draw, easy to detect).
Then again, maybe that's just with the human form. I certainly agree the better a modeller is, the more ideal of a judge he is. But laypeople can catch a lot of errors too; so long as they are meticulous.

Pyramidhead said:
but we've always(or at least i hope it was always) STATED the criterias. people needs solid statements. you cant just imply something and expect people to know that they will be penalised for not putting on an effect.

This.
All the applicable criteria must be stated at the beginning of the contest, and in plain text for all to read & follow. It's ok to add/remove things if the course of the contest demands it, IMO; just let everyone know. We cannot be graded on things that are not included.

Pyramidhead said:
the title says it is a goblin. trolls in the hobbit also have a different physique(lack of muscle mass and a more prominent gut) than the model and from looking, i would call this more of a goblin. your point on the thing being a less flexible than human does bring up a good point though

Yeah, Trolls and Goblins and Ogres and all that in Wc3 are very different from how they are presented in many other fantasy venues (such as LotR). That's not a problem; just say the one you are making (in this case, a Cave Goblin from probably LotR).

Deolrin · Mar 26, 2013

I am very much unwilling to have this conversation. I'll respond to Pyramidhe@d, and perhaps a few other people in short.
If any of you would like to discuss this further, please contact me via private message or visitor message.

Right from the start. Those animations? Definitely not 6. You know what 5 is? it is when it just barely considered average. Functional. Something that just gets rated as "Is Useful". 6 is something that does a little bit better but not much. 7 is an okay with a positive tone. 8 is good, 9 is great and 10 is goddamn great. Straight off. without real analysis, i would just say 7. Could say 8 after further inspection. Some animations could TAD bit more organic. But I wouldnt call them stiff.

I find these animations a definite "6", perhaps even "5". Since you're so fond of comparing SuPa's model to the footman, I'd say SuPa- did a far worse job than whoever animated the Footman, back in the day. I believe that the animations were static and inorganic, and lacked any interesting factors. Fodder or not, pretty much every model in WC3 has at least one semi-interesting animation. The Footman drinks water from his flask. The Grunt looks around and scratches his arse. The Peon stretches. The Villager scratches his head. SuPa-'s had nothing of the sort.

Unlike warcraft models with weapons that are legth of their body, these things hold small one handed weapons. And why would someone use a small one handed weapon? cos they are light and fast. Do you see the correlation? Now, I think what you were MEANT to say is that there is barely any swingback time. Cos I've compared the actual swing speed with a footman. The actual speed of the motion comparable. What the animation lacks is a considerable swingback, both before and after the actual attack which gives the impression that the whole animation is super fast. Don't just say the animation is super fast. Explain it.
Considering death animation. These things are meant to be cannon fodders. They are meant to be killed by the thousands. For something like that, you dont need master grade death animations. They just need to die. They just need to fall down. They dont need a death gasp and an lunge and a twitch and a seizure. You should have judged the model according to its purpose and nothing more.

On the subject of judging the attack animation, I suppose you are right. I was rather tired and wanted to finish writing my judging quickly. It really is swingback time that the model lacks, rather than the animation being fast. I'm sorry for not making that clear.
As for the death animation. You keep bringing up the footman. Did you compare the death animation on SuPa-'s model to the one on the footman model? The Footman's death takes longer. It's more interesting. He falls more slowly and dramatically, and it actually looks like he was impacting something. It's a full 3 seconds, versus SuPa-'s half a second.
Putting the Footman as the ultimate 'cannon fodder' unit in WC3, SuPa-'s death animation is inadequate by comparison.

Now...here is what I like to call a "too good for Warcraft 3" situation. A criterion that always pops up is "is it warcraft looking" which defeats the whole purpose of a contest. In a contest, you want to look as best as you want. But by current time standards, to look like warcraft, you want to look as crappy as possible. Now was "fitting in to the warcraft 3" an actual criterion this time around? It usually is. Lemme see the original contest thread...well. I was wrong. Looks like there wasnt even a set criterion in the contest post.

The missing criterion in the contest post was something I was personally confused about as well. I specifically asked Pharaoh_ for a proper criterion(For fairness' sake) in a private message, and Pharaoh_ delivered. From the writing style, and thanks to a few very vague memory, I am assuming the criterion itself was written by, possibly, anarchianbedlam, back in the day. Of course, I could be entirely wrong. Regrettably, I have removed the private messages regarding the contest in my inbox, since it's pretty much full and those seemed like the least important messages around. Rest assured, however, the criterion DID mention how well the model fits in-game in at least one of its criteria. Pharaoh_, if would be much appreciated if you could find the criterion in your "Sent Items" folder or elsewhere and post it here. Thanks in advance. ^^

So it makes little sense that you penalised for not looking warcraft.

I've already responded to that in one of my first posts. I've said all I have to say about the whole "fits in WC3" topic.

Yeah, the team colour is terrible. But ya. once again, a fodder unit. Probably dont need team colour cos its going to be a shitty NPC. The team colour is more like an afterthought with these types of things.

This is a really stupid way to think. Footmen, Grunts, Archers, Ghouls - all cannon fodder units, all have very obvious TC placements. One could argue that a few creep units don't have teamcolor at all, but that is a different subject altogether. In my honest opinion, I think that the artists simply ran out of time, and the less well-made models in Warcraft 3 are a result of re-using old textures and artwork, as well as hastily thought-of ideas. I've had experience with artists who worked on Blizzard's RTS games, and I know, for a fact, that sometimes they have to cut a lot of planned features off because of time limits. (The Zerg evolutions in SC2: Heart of the Swarm were to be a lot more unique, for example, but due to time restrictions, they had to cut a few edges and made simple pallet-swaps and minor changes to the models instead).
The point here is... The TC placement was obviously an oversight by SuPa-. It was bad planning. He got SOME teamcolor done, and therefore, I believe he could've done it better. Hell, a ragged shirt would've done a much better job, without breaking the immersion\"LotR lore" too much.

Also, a different colour placement defeats the concept. Which is the Hobbit cave goblin. If the thing had shoulderpads, it breaks lotr lore and therefore becomes useless cos as you mentioned, its not Warcrafty. You cannot penalise here for following the original concept here and then penalise again in the part for creativity.

But teamcolored shoulderpads would've helped the WarCraftiness factor immensely. There's nothing more "WarCraft" than massive, unrealistic shoulderpads made from a suspicious colorful material. In my honest opinion, how well the model fits in the game matters more than how well it represents the intended source material, unless it's made with a specific project or goal in mind.

The point that this is a fodder unit once again applies here. do you know what happens if a footman model keeps on dying by the truck-loads?

Yes, I know exactly what happens. He dies and leaves behind a proper corpse. The same as EVERY OTHER applicable model in Warcraft 3. The model itself being there in large amounts takes more processing power than the model's corpse being there in large amounts.
There's really nothing to argue about here. A proper corpse is a part of the "Mechanics" criteria. In fact, in my opinion, it's the SINGLE most important part of the "Mechanics" criteria.

Now here is my real concern. Considering that this contest didnt have a criteria, how was one suppose to account for effects?

Honestly, I myself consider this a major problem with the original concept thread in the first place. No criteria means no idea what you're stepping into. No idea what you're going to be judged for.
However... Effects have ALWAYS been a criteria, in pretty much every single modeling contest. There is no reason to believe that this contest is any different.
Now, the way I personally see the "Effects" criteria is that it's a sort of "bonus" five points, nothing you have to do, but it definitely can affect your judging, and giving your model various special effects definitely does give you an advantage over other modelers who don't. In retrospect, though, I do realize that is kind of dumb. In the future, I'll try and be more objective about this criteria in particular.

Why is it then, when an attachment is not really expected to have effects, is he penalised for not having effects? This applies to Supa- as well.

Different criteria. Animations and effects. Having no animations is okay for an attachment model. I still gave GhostThruster a 0\5 in "Effects". Same silly reasoning as above. I did kind of screw up here. I apologize.

Whitedeath got 10/10 for his animation...

...Because I really, really liked them. They felt just... Great, in general. SuPa-'s didn't. I gave that reasoning in the judging. As a matter of fact, WhiteDeath's animations DIDN'T feel robotic to me, at all. In fact, all I could think of was the organic goblin inside. I think WhiteDeath's model has a sort of "powersuit" concept behind it, rather than a robotic unit. This is evident in the Portrait's global sequence(which, by the way, also added towards the 10\10 in "Animations").

You want my opinion? I also thought that SuPa-'s model was a clear winner...

And, to be honest, I did as well. That is, when I saw the screenshots of every single model in the contest. I just told myself, "Well. No real competition here. I think SuPa- won this one".
But, then... I opened the model in Magos. And then I viewed it in-game. And, alas, SuPa-'s model now seems to me more like a really crappy book with a sweet-looking cover. WhiteDeath's attention to details and creative thinking is what really made him win, in my eyes. In my opinion, that guy's a genius, and his model is a masterpiece, even if it isn't nearly as externally impressive as SuPa-'s model.

but you also forget that for the anatomy they refer to (a giant cave troll - You may also argue about the actual race of the model, which may be a goblin, but from my stimuli all these years from movies and games alike, I find this to be a troll; Lord of the Rings has had an almost identical concept, while League of Legends also features a troll who is more magnificent in size, compared to human models)

Honestly, this is where I'll disagree with you. SuPa-'s model is most definitely a goblin, like the ones in the Hobbit. Goblins are famously very small - human-sized goblins are probably considered giants. This fellow is most definitely not a troll - he is too thin and lightweight to be one. Trolls are meant to be fat and bulky, and full of muscle mass. This fellow here isn't.

Judging effects doesn't mean to judge how MANY effects are there. (and I said this a couple of times already, to Deolrin directly) It means ONLY to judge - do this model is good enough regarding its effects?

You raise a fair point, and I will consider this, should I judge another contest. Thank you, and I apologize for the current situation.
Honestly, I actually originally wanted to do something similar to what you're saying, but I just felt really strange about giving models with no effects whatsoever a "3\5" or a "5\5" just because they don't need any. I think further contests should be clearer about whether a model is meant to be a unit, a hero, an attachment, a building or a doodad. Different types of models require different judging points of view - for instance, in this case, attachments and doodads simply had no chance the moment a unit entered the fray.

but we've always(or at least i hope it was always) STATED the criterias. people needs solid statements. you cant just imply something and expect people to know that they will be penalised for not putting on an effect.

All the applicable criteria must be stated at the beginning of the contest, and in plain text for all to read & follow. It's ok to add/remove things if the course of the contest demands it, IMO; just let everyone know. We cannot be graded on things that are not included.

Absolutely agreed here. This is something that really confused me when I agreed to judge. In fact, it's probably also partially my fault. As soon as Pharaoh_ sent me the criterion, I should've posted it on the thread. I know this wouldn't have exactly helped, it being after the event, but at least it would've helped prevent some of the arguing that's going on right now.

Yeah, Trolls and Goblins and Ogres and all that in Wc3 are very different from how they are presented in many other fantasy venues (such as LotR). That's not a problem; just say the one you are making (in this case, a Cave Goblin from probably LotR).

Well, I think there's a certain standard fantasy "idea" for those races. WC3 makes a notable exception with trolls here, but in general, trolls are big and hairy, goblins are small and cheeky, and ogres are big and brutish.

Pyramidhe@d · Mar 26, 2013

I find these animations a definite "6", perhaps even "5". Since you're so fond of comparing SuPa's model to the footman, I'd say SuPa- did a far worse job than whoever animated the Footman, back in the day.

you misunderstand me. the reason why i pick the footman is because it has good animations. the details you mentioned are the exact type of stuff that will get me to rate animation 8, 9 or even 10. supa- fell behind the really interesting details you mentioned and hence, he falls short of 8. the footman model, for a fodder, is actually quite excellent and above the expectations. i know, and you know, that i've always said warcraft models are shitty in terms of mesh and texture. but almost never for anims.

The point here is... The TC placement was obviously an oversight by SuPa-. It was bad planning. He got SOME teamcolor done, and therefore, I believe he could've done it better. Hell, a ragged shirt would've done a much better job, without breaking the immersion\"LotR lore" too much.

i agree its an oversight. but i guess i

...Because I really, really liked them. They felt just... Great, in general. SuPa-'s didn't. I gave that reasoning in the judging. As a matter of fact, WhiteDeath's animations DIDN'T feel robotic to me, at all. In fact, all I could think of was the organic goblin inside. I think WhiteDeath's model has a sort of "powersuit" concept behind it, rather than a robotic unit. This is evident in the Portrait's global sequence(which, by the way, also added towards the 10\10 in "Animations").

i am fine with you giving the score 10 cos that's...i dont know. i really dont have a problem with it. as i cant see whitedeath's animations, i may only speculate. what i am pointing out is that speculating that it is indeed a 10, giving supa- a 6 seems to be a big ass gap. my concern here is that whether a 40% jump in score is justified. now i dont know how you assign scores, but i always thought using a bell curve as a sort of a standard is a good thing. meaning, to go from 5 to 6 is easy, 6 to 7 is exponentially harder and 7 to 8 is even more harder. 9 and 10 are kind of a blurred line.

Yes, I know exactly what happens. He dies and leaves behind a proper corpse.

umm...i was gonna say on a shittier machine, the screen and lighting goes all fucked up. maybe it just happens to me...the point is. a lot of stuff on screen for unnecessary reasons could only mean a bad thing

You raise a fair point, and I will consider this, should I judge another contest. Thank you, and I apologize for the current situation.
Honestly, I actually originally wanted to do something similar to what you're saying, but I just felt really strange about giving models with no effects whatsoever a "3\5" or a "5\5" just because they don't need any. I think further contests should be clearer about whether a model is meant to be a unit, a hero, an attachment, a building or a doodad. Different types of models require different judging points of view - for instance, in this case, attachments and doodads simply had no chance the moment a unit entered the fray.

nothing to...apologise? i mean, you did what you had to do and i do what i think i have to do. we are all just arguing(debating if you want a better word) here. you just followed criteria and etc and i am fine with that. its just that the main problem is that these criteria were not public. i mean. it make perfect sense to give a model a 0 for having no effect. but it also makes perfect sense to not penalise for not putting when not needed. it really goes both ways. and hence the need for public clarification.

Absolutely agreed here. This is something that really confused me when I agreed to judge. In fact, it's probably also partially my fault. As soon as Pharaoh_ sent me the criterion, I should've posted it on the thread. I know this wouldn't have exactly helped, it being after the event, but at least it would've helped prevent some of the arguing that's going on right now.

well. i'm glad we agree on that part. aaaand...i think thats pretty much all i wanted to argue about really.

SuPa- · Mar 26, 2013

I don't really care much about this anymore, but calling WhiteDeath's model a "masterpiece" is a huge overstatement. I could make the same exact thing in a day. You're really overstretching his achievement. It's a simple model with easily done animations and uses an uncreative and obvious pick of an in-game texture. Having said that, I like the model a lot and think that it's useful. Does it show any technical modeling skill or challenge? No. You don't know what you're talking about. But how could you? Have you ever animated a unit model? Or textured one? Or fully modeled one? 70% of what you do is done for you by Blizzard, Deolrin. Harsh, but completely true.

I didn't spend a huge amount of time on my animations, and I'm perfectly fine with that. The attack animations, to me, look fine with a weapon attached and they were designed to have a weapon attached. And I really like the walk fast animation, which I prefer as his primary movement. The other walk is on the derpy side, but not as derpy as WhiteDeath's walk on his, that's for sure. I don't necessarily think that my animations are poorly made or inorganic. They are, on the other hand, uninventive.

TaShadan · Mar 26, 2013

There is no need to be bad mannered. Although the model is excellent the animations are not and the model is not wc3ish. Also the teamcolors are lacking. And yes iam a noob.

SuPa- · Mar 26, 2013

I'm not being bad mannered, I'm being honest. And honesty isn't always nice.

WhiteDeath · Mar 26, 2013

OK than be honest and rate your own model if you have the time, I am just curious how much you would give yourself. Do it with explanations like Deolrin did so it is clear why you give a certain score.
And again be honest when you rate.

Kyrbi0 · Mar 26, 2013

C-C-C-Combo Breaker!

I loved the idea behind WhiteDeath's, but the legs & the gun throw me from being able to use it much. The 'mech-suit' angle is great, though.

Cakedog345 · Mar 27, 2013

I think this is a healthy thread.
It's good that people still argue and support their opinions(means they still care and don't give up, are fighters).
Congratulations to the participants!
They did a great job, imo, and only the fact that they participated (spent some of their free time) is great.
Don't want to offend anyone, but i think one of the important features of the jury is to be as objective as possible. The feeling of being wronged, discourage, or rather decreases people's interest to participate in contests.
That said, i'm not good at modeling but, if i were in SuPa's shoes, probably would have reacted the same.
Off topic: glad to see Pyramidhe@d around.

Khil · Mar 28, 2013

SuPa- said:
I'm not being bad mannered, I'm being honest. And honesty isn't always nice.

- Well, i'm just pass through and see this topic accidentally. Then i try to test both model with my experience and check back to the review at page 1st again. And you have your own shoes , Supa.
- Honestly, my opinion is not matter here. May be next time we can made a quick youtube video which review every model of the contest for each judge. For example here we'll have two videos, each video review 6 models.
- You know, youtube is free and people can even vote with the like/ dislike.
- If anyone have further question about my opinion , feel free to pm me. Since i dont want to push any conflict here.

takakenji · Apr 8, 2013

jesus so much drama on a mini modeling contest

Kyrbi0 · Apr 8, 2013

^Yeah, Can't wait to see what happens with the full-on Modelling Contest... Speaking of which, hey Pharaoh, when's the ETA for that one?

HappyCockroach · Apr 10, 2013

takakenji said:
jesus so much drama on a mini modeling contest

you don't look as cool as you might have expected complaining about it.

all contests in THW have no prize, but all contestants expect fairness and coherency on the results, and discussing about it is legitimate. so please don't try to make everyone appear ridiculous with your insolence.

Modelling & Animation Mini-Contests ~ Less Is More ~ The Results

Similar threads