Making your own Hero vs having pre-set abilities

[Lightstalker]

Would you rather be able to fully customize your Hero's abilities (like custom line wars), or be able to choose from X number of Heroes, each with 20 abilities that you can choose from (kinda like in D2)?

 

[Mcasdf]

Well, full custimaization is awesome if it's made good. And i think it's easier to make a diablo 2 version

 

[Trillium]

depends on the kind of map imho. in arena/AoS you don't care 'bout lore behind ur hero and his skills, so you can pick whatever you want. In rpg lore is usually an important aspect, so it would be logical to have preset skills (like a warrior wouldnt be able to lear teleport - it requires a great magical skill and alot of training in magic, same goes for a mage and some kind of uber attack)

EDIT: also, if you have a hero with with preset abilities, you can create some kind of a distinctive gameplay, such as D2 Assassin's Charge Ups, WoW Rogue combo points & energy, Warrior's rage or DK's runes. Also, ability combos always look appealing imho.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Choosing your own abilities is kind of stupid from the designers point of view. You have to create all abilities equally powerful and useful which ends up rather dull or bland or else ballence becomes hideous.

In almost all ability choosing maps I have played, certain combinations of abilities were noticably stronger than others. Eg in long maps a pure passive hero ended up being extreem while damage move heroes ended up being usless. This basically results in smart people choosing the same abilities again and again as they are near unserpasable by other ability move sets, so why even have the choice in the first place. Frankly in every choose your abilities map I played, most abilties I would never choose which kind of ruins the point of having them for choice. I also end up picking passive skills like drunken brawler, critical strike, cleaving attack or nasty effect moves like charm, resurrect or divine shield.

Using heroes with fixed abilities on the other hand is generally easier to ballence. Their abilities can vary more in strength as you can not end up with deadly combinations. Also if people notice one being strongr than others, you can always try making a counter hero or nerfing that hero. In the end you end up like DotA, whereby you have huge choice and for your first 60 games you are still learning and discovering all the heroes and their potential with no real hero standing out above them all for ages. If you choose the choose ability system, your map will suffer from people choosing only the best and most lethal moves resulting in 70% of the choice being unused while 10% will nearly always be used with combat and gameplay being quite repetitive and boring.

Thus I concluded.
The D2 way - Easily capable of allowing 100% use of all available choices on average and constant abilities mean that hero aspects can be more easilly controled for better ballence.
The custom way - Large numbers of abilities will never be used (over 50%) and variable abilties allow for dangerous and rigged combinations (eg mass stun characters or passive masters with insane physical capabilities). Ballence is near if not impossiable and results in all abilites feeling the same (equally as powerful).

 

[Lightstalker]

Choosing your own abilities is kind of stupid from the designers point of view. You have to create all abilities equally powerful and useful which ends up rather dull or bland or else ballence becomes hideous.

In almost all ability choosing maps I have played, certain combinations of abilities were noticably stronger than others. Eg in long maps a pure passive hero ended up being extreem while damage move heroes ended up being usless. This basically results in smart people choosing the same abilities again and again as they are near unserpasable by other ability move sets, so why even have the choice in the first place. Frankly in every choose your abilities map I played, most abilties I would never choose which kind of ruins the point of having them for choice. I also end up picking passive skills like drunken brawler, critical strike, cleaving attack or nasty effect moves like charm, resurrect or divine shield.

Using heroes with fixed abilities on the other hand is generally easier to ballence. Their abilities can vary more in strength as you can not end up with deadly combinations. Also if people notice one being strongr than others, you can always try making a counter hero or nerfing that hero. In the end you end up like DotA, whereby you have huge choice and for your first 60 games you are still learning and discovering all the heroes and their potential with no real hero standing out above them all for ages. If you choose the choose ability system, your map will suffer from people choosing only the best and most lethal moves resulting in 70% of the choice being unused while 10% will nearly always be used with combat and gameplay being quite repetitive and boring.

Thus I concluded.
The D2 way - Easily capable of allowing 100% use of all available choices on average and constant abilities mean that hero aspects can be more easilly controled for better ballence.
The custom way - Large numbers of abilities will never be used (over 50%) and variable abilties allow for dangerous and rigged combinations (eg mass stun characters or passive masters with insane physical capabilities). Ballence is near if not impossiable and results in all abilites feeling the same (equally as powerful).

True, true but I could always have requirements. For example, if someone learns bash, then they won't be able to learn another ability that stuns. I could also make it so that some abilities have pre-requisites. For example, if you cannot learn "Fire Nova" without first having learnt "Fireball". I also plan on making most abilities custom.

 

[Trillium]

...and you get back to diablo II, but with 40 (50,60, 100, 10⁷, etc.) abilities instead of 20 =)))

 

[Lightstalker]

...and you get back to diablo II, but with 40 (50,60, 100, 10⁷, etc.) abilities instead of 20 =)))

So "altered d2 way" would be the best? Basically, no matter what Hero you are, you can choose any skill you want, but some skills have pre-requisites to encourage combo stuff (like the assassin you mentioned) and prevent players from picking only stun spells?

 

[Trillium]

yeah, a wider d2 system. maybe even d3 - less actual skills, but more passives, that enhance actyve spells.
btw, what kind of map is that gonna be?

 

[Lightstalker]

yeah, a wider d2 system. maybe even d3 - less actual skills, but more passives, that enhance actyve spells.
btw, what kind of map is that gonna be?

Well I would classify it as "Other" but I think it's more closely related to AoS, although it combines elements from RPGs such as an Equipment system and a Mount system.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Nah i say custom abilities are the best from the players prespective. give them class and ability outline: if you a mage you cannot use warrior-intense abilities, like "hyperbash" or vice versa: a warrior cannot learn "superfireball" but a mage can learn "hamstring" or sommit and a warrior can learn icicle, etc. also say you learn Bash, well then you cannot learn Critical hit. etc. cause its different focus so you cancel the other spells out. etc.

 

[Vosty]

I like the D2 way, seeing as in custom hero arenas, like Dr supergodd said, if you have certain skills together, you are really unstoppable. Combining buy getting all kinds of nukes and such really makes you unstoppable. Even in one custom hero arena i played, where you get an offensive, defensive, passive, and ultimate, it was partially unbalanced, and all of the spell were pratically the same, wit hdifferent icons, eyecandy, and sometimes they added up to same total (did math. X waves of X damage = X nuke.)
Yes picking presets stops a mage from having Bladestorm etc, so another point for presets.

20 prestets is best IF properly handled. Don't let the player pick 3 Nukes and an Ultimate Nuke. That is just SICK.
Well good luck on your map.

 

[Cec]

Defiantly preset abilities!

I like it when each hero, has his own "theme". Not just some random spells.

 

[HappyCockroach]

Full customization sucks, it leaves too much space for unbalance and makes some skills be never picked. In addition it is pretty tiring to choose skill by skill and players will always be concerned about not making "the perfect pick" with only practically usable abilities.