Making Neutral Melee Assets Viable for Ladder+Others

[Knecht]

They have light armor and

Only on shallow water.

Nah, you just need to buy 4 boats Haven't you seen grubby play Thawing Snow?
Jokes aside, sure you can surround them on shallow water and it's harder than it seems despite the size of the boat's pathing. You need to slow them down with spells/abilities.

Boats have 900HP and light armor now, they made them very similar to zeps in that aspect in the patch. Before that you couldn't even sink one ship.

Anyways, idk why boats would need to be changed now, if we could make maps with boats work when they had 1500HP and heavy armor, why couldn't we make them work now when they're not outright broken? The only thing that can accelerate any talk about boat changes is making more maps with boats that could get into tournaments like Taker's New Horizons Cup and to get maps into tournaments, they should excel in every aspect of mapping. I'd like to mention Hymn of Victory by @SaveHighKing which is looking like a potentially great boat map if he does some tweaks to it.

 

[deepstrasz]

Nah, you just need to buy 4 boats Haven't you seen grubby play Thawing Snow?

Nope. I see. Didn't realize the pathing was so big on them.

 

[deepstrasz]

Fountains dumb down the game.
When you retreat from a fight it should cost gold to restore your health and mana.
Imo they have no place in 1v1.

@Nudl9 gave me an idea that fountains could either have a cooldown period for regeneration (an AoE spell that would need to be clicked) and/or it should cost to use this ability.

 

[Nudl9]

I toyed with the idea of using corrupted moon wells in Warcraft Royale as a neutral building.
A neutral moon well means it can be depleted and full health units can't drain more from it, leaving spare moon juice for the other player.
Though i don't expect Blizzard to add any new game mechanics at this point.

The better option is to tweak fountains to provide flat+hybrid rate, which is a lot more balanced for fountains.
I actually implemented it myself in Warcraft Royale 2.0 and it's a big improvement.
Mountain giants took longer to regenerate, while a Huntress would heal at the same rate it currently does.
Low hp units like footies regenerated a little quicker than normal, but it's to be expected.

For mana fountain only do flat regeneration rate.

 

[deepstrasz]

A neutral moon well means it can be depleted and full health units can't drain more from it, leaving spare moon juice for the other player.

Yes but it heals instantly. Fountains are supposed to slow AoE heal.

The better option is to tweak fountains to provide flat+hybrid rate, which is a lot more balanced for fountains.

What do you mean by flat+hybrid?
If it heals percentages it means the same time for total HP heal for any units regardless of total HP.
If it's a fixed amount like 1HP/s it means units with less max HP will heal faster.

Besides, it wouldn't be fair to send your Blademaster or Warden/random night elf unit during the night to regenerate if the fountain regenerates 24/7 freely.
Also suggested before that the fountains should activate after the creeps are taken down.

 

[Nudl9]

I wrote too quickly lol, i meant: Flat+Percentage (Hybrid heal)
If you only use flat then Tier 1 heals too quickly.
If you only use percentage then Tier 3 units heal too quickly.
Therefore flat+percentage is necessary to balance the heal rate.

Besides, it wouldn't be fair to send your Blademaster or Warden/random night elf unit during the night to regenerate if the fountain regenerates 24/7 freely.
Also suggested before that the fountains should activate after the creeps are taken down.

Blademaster and Warden aren't meta right now.
Even if they can regenerate health, they depend on mana to keep up the harass.
So you'll need a faction shop to get your mana fixed or moon juice.

 

[deepstrasz]

Even if they can regenerate health, they depend on mana to keep up the harass.

Well, I was also referring to mana fountains, fountains in general

Therefore flat+percentage is necessary to balance the heal rate.

They should trigger it then based on max HP or unit-type.

 

[Nudl9]

Separate values for every unit creates a lot of confusion.
Simplicity is always better.
You don't want a "memory" game like dota where you need to spend time just learning values for each hero/unit.

Flat+percent just works.
Hunts is the main unit that gains benefit from having fountains on a map.
So you keep the hybrid regen rate so it regens at the same rate as it does with percent now.

Well, I was also referring to mana fountains, fountains in general

Fountains need seperate regen types and rates for balance reasons.
Mana is the most valueable resource in melee games and should not be easily available.
That's why flat is the way to go.

 

[Folderz]

Fountains could just dry out as the time goes on. In 20-30 mins all of the fountains would dry out. Maybe the map maker could decide the exact time.

 

[deepstrasz]

Fountains could just dry out as the time goes on. In 20-30 mins all of the fountains would dry out. Maybe the map maker could decide the exact time.

That would make them useless in mid-late game. They are mos advantageous in early game, true, but since they have an AoE regeneration ability, more units come from mid game onward.

 

[Folderz]

That would make them useless in mid-late game.

I would like that. This makes the map end sooner but brings some interesting strategy options to early game. Also mana fountains are just maybe too useful for high level heroes?

 

[deepstrasz]

Also mana fountains are just maybe too useful for high level heroes?

Well, they won't be on just one side of the map nearer to one player only.
The regeneration rate could be tweaked. More mana->less regeneration rate. Or, dependable on hero level.

 

[Folderz]

The regeneration rate could be tweaked. More mana->less regeneration rate. Or, dependable on hero level.

I bet the fix will be something like this if bliz ever touches fountains. I still like the map evolving throughout the gameplay: gold mines get emptied, structures get built, trees fell down, creeps die out, maybe fountains could dry out as well

 

[deepstrasz]

I bet the fix will be something like this if bliz ever touches fountains. I still like the map evolving throughout the gameplay: gold mines get emptied, structures get built, trees fell down, creeps die out, maybe fountains could dry out as well

Maybe. Drying them out on choice isn't viable since the enemy might dry it out for you. But yeah, basically, them being timed naturally would be a good idea.
For instance, the timer could start once the creeps protecting the fountains are killed.

 

[Folderz]

I would like to have some lumber management unit to be sold from shipyards.

Goblin Carpenter
Carries 50 lumber at the time and has repair. Costs 2 food and some resources. About as strong as peons.

Laboratories and shipyards won't appear on the same map that often. It would be still good to have some options to boost your lumber economy. When you normally go for one shredder you could have two carpenters instead. Shredders can fight but carpenters can help repair.
Also carpenters and shipyards fit together quite well.

 

[deepstrasz]

Shredders can fight but carpenters can help repair.

For fairness, they should be able to repair any racial buildings.

Also carpenters and shipyards fit together quite well.

Do they also swim ?

 

[Folderz]

Do they also swim ?

Probably not but I invented this goofy game mechanic:
Carpenter has huge bag on his back to carry his 50 lumber. When the bag is full of wood he can also float and swim around.

 

[deepstrasz]

Carpenter has huge bag on his back to carry his 50 lumber. When the bag is full of wood he can also float and swim around.

If the carpenter is killed, the wood he collected will be dropped as a lumber bundle item

 

[Folderz]

Tavern improvement:
Pitlord's rain of fire should destroy trees. This would give all of the races option to destroy trees early game. I think destorying trees shouldn't be instant but rather pitlord would need to channel all of the 6 waves down before any of the trees get destroyed. This because he's such a op hero to begin with.

If not the pitlord how about Tinker and his cluster rockets. This hero is all about demolition.

 

[deepstrasz]

Pitlord's rain of fire should destroy trees. This would give all of the races option to destroy trees early game. I think destorying trees shouldn't be instant but rather pitlord would need to channel all of the 6 waves down before any of the trees get destroyed. This because he's such a op hero to begin with.

Basically, like catapults or workers hitting trees, lowering their HP until they fall.

If not the pitlord how about Tinker and his cluster rockets. This hero is all about demolition.

I think we also have to consider the mana cost. KotG also gets a temporary unit as bonus. And there's also the AoE circle to consider.

 

[Folderz]

@deepstrasz maybe tavern heroes destroying trees is actually a bad idea because why carefully build and wall your base if any opponent playing any race can break in with just one spell.

 

[deepstrasz]

@deepstrasz maybe tavern heroes destroying trees is actually a bad idea because why carefully build and wall your base if any opponent playing any race can break in with just one spell.

Right but, only human and night elf can do it on level 1.