Legion TD Mega 3.5 (B4) + 3.41 unprotect

[Gazelle]

It doesn't matter about -li or not, you can buy wisp 1 level later.

and I had proof that :
- element is very strong on early level 1-10 (7/2 - 7/3)
- element is average between 10-20 (didn't leak lvl14,17,20)
- element is very strong again after level 20 ( impossible to leak, I can even kill full leak on lvl29 from teammate

so don't tell me element is weak again.

I really like element because you can't just spam 1-2 unit for whole game.

Undead is in my opinion a much weaker race than element. But its the only one I can think of right now lol.
Without cb mode, beast by example would be weaker than element, since those dragon arent rly strong. But beast early-mid game is stronger.

So with cb being default mode it doesnt rly matter if element is strong late game since you could just random it later.

I think 7/2 for lvl 10 doenst mean element is very strong early game (or all races are very strong early game).

But ok lets say element is not a weak race.
Then i still think that mech, nature, elf, goblin, shadow, ghost, marine are much better.
Beast, demi, arctic, paladin are weaker overall (without cb).
Maybe paladin should go in the strong one, and maybe marine in the weaker one.
I had to write this fast sry if I'm missing a few important races lol.

 

[HuanAk]

More Questions: Is Spell dmg unaffected by armor type (100% for all)? Also is it unaffected by auras (eg by captain/admiral)?

On the element replay. Watched it yesterday but did not check if "hg/gg" turned off. As I recalled blue was consistantly leaking even in early rounds, the extra gold from leak will be too significant if "hg/gg" was on.

It have HG/GG on, I think I get 50-70 gold from leaked by level 10.

you can ignore the feed, and copy my safe build for important level: 5, 7, 10, 13, 16, 17, 20, 24, 28 . and spent whatever gold left on lumber.

The main reason for "element is strong race" because they are so powerful after level 20+
- not more hard level for element after 20+
- level 28 is piece of cake for element (you can clear full leak from teammate)
- level 29 is easier than 28 for element


-----------------

anyway, I am done with element talk, if someone still have problem with "element is too weak" in future, you guy can look after that.

 

[Gazelle]

Ok then can you now post replay of games with undead with good overall incoming.

I rarely play undead and if I do, I rarely play it without switching race after 10.
I'm curious to see if anyone found a way to play it that is very effective without feed.

 

[wcen]

Also, do we really need 3 dragons All the other tier 6 are really unique and has interesting abilities. With exception of azure dragon, the other 2 dragons are so so so so so ordinary. The negligible splash essentially makes them ordinary, big hitting fighters, with no special abilities.

If beast or undead are "weak" (waiting for replays that show otherwise), perhaps you can consider reworking the dragons?

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Without cb mode, beast by example would be weaker than element, since those dragon arent rly strong. But beast early-mid game is stronger.

So with cb being default mode it doesnt rly matter if element is strong late game since you could just random it later.

I think 7/2 for lvl 10 doenst mean element is very strong early game (or all races are very strong early game).

Yes. If we play without using cb it's a whole different story.

Here's the way I see it:

(By "strong" I only mean the extremely good units that allow you to income/defend easily, not just moderately good)

Races that have strong early game units/combos:
Nature (Tier 4,6), Arctic (Tier 2,4,6), Beast (Tier 5), Orc (Tier 1), Goblin (Tier 3,5), Mech (Tier 2), Elf (Tier 4,6), Shadow (Tier 5), Marine (Tier 6).

Races that have strong mid game units/combos:
Nature (Tier 5,6), Arctic (Tier 3,5), Beast (Tier 5), Goblin (Tier 3,4,5). Marine(Tier 6).

Races that have strong late game units:
Mech, Ghost (only after lv29 t_t), Shadow, Element.

Races that have strong support units/buffers:
Nature, Arctic, Orc, Demi, Shadow, Ghost, Goblin, Elf, Element, Mech (melee, so dies quick late game).

And of course, there's all those imba unit combos you can get with either prophet or cb; like Magnataur tanks, or Hades Goliath, or lifesteal Wardens.

Currently, the good races are mostly the races that are very strong early, but rely on cb to solve their late game problems (after getting a massive income), such as Nature, Arctic, Orc. Not using cb will indeed bring them down a lot (compared to races that only have "strong" late game units).

Not using cb also means the races that only have good supports are screwed

 

[HuanAk]

For me:

0 - "weak" race: leak with recommended value
1 - "good", "normal" race: do not leak with recommended value, small leak on hard level.
2 - "strong", "pretty good" race: do not leak with 90% recommended value, won't leak hard level with 100% recommended value.
3 - "very strong", "best" race: do not leak with 80-85% recommended value. can defend massive leak with 100% recommended value

so element is:
level 1-10 = 2
level 11-20 = 1
level 21-30 = 3
Overall = 2 = "strong" or "pretty good"

you can try same rules for other race

NOTE: above rules only apply to those never use CB

----------
I won't show you how to play undead/beast, because:
- for wave difficult adjustment during beta, I use Beast (and other) to test all wave, and beast can kill all wave with recommend value
- for undead, I post replay before, and I saw someone can reach level 31 with high income/value without change builder.

Element/Undead/Beast have ONE thing in common:
- you can't spam Tier 6 unit untill late game

 

[Gazelle]

Beast is much easier to play than undead I believe, maybe because its a race that exist for a while now.

I can play a fine game with undead till the end but if I play any other races in the same game I can get higher income and better value.

Could I know what are those "weak" race? I cant think of any race that leak with recommended value if you know how to play it. (on lvl 20 and under at least)
For beast there would be maybe one lvl and that's lvl 16.

"2 - "strong", "pretty good" race: do not leak with 90% recommended value, won't leak hard level with 100% recommended value."
All races before 10 can kill most lvls under value.


Btw pl0x I would add goblin to the very strong late game race, I think its the best without cb because of copter with tier 6 being ranged.
Elf are also pretty strong late game.
Ghost is very strong on mid game, on early game if you're rly strong before 10 you'll have a hard time at 10, and late game one of the best too.
You didnt talk about paladin, I think archer makes it strong early game, riders makes it strong late game.

 

[HuanAk]

I always make sure "All races are good", that is why it is hard to find "weak" race.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Btw pl0x I would add goblin to the very strong late game race, I think its the best without cb because of copter with tier 6 being ranged.
Elf are also pretty strong late game.
Ghost is very strong on mid game, on early game if you're rly strong before 10 you'll have a hard time at 10, and late game one of the best too.
You didnt talk about paladin, I think archer makes it strong early game, riders makes it strong late game.

Hmm. The way I see it:
1. Goblin tanks are really subpar compared to Mech's. They have a shorter range, which hinders their ability of forming a concave. They even have a lower dps per cost that surprised me, considering it is a smaller unit. The free Geo/Clocks that pop out after the tank die is pretty comedic, but that's about all they could do lol.

2. For Elf, it's kind of obvious you shouldn't put your bets on mass wardens, as it will fail pretty hard to lv24/29+. So I'm guessing the main carry unit of Elf is going to be Druids, since it has optimal dps per cost (and good hp too, at the same time). But the fact that magic damage isn't as reliable as Siege still puts me in doubt of this race, because you know, druids can't tank like phoenixes .

3. It seems to me that Ghost units are not very cost-effective (before lv30). They all have really low dps/health to cost ratio and thus you don't exactly get the stuff you paid for. For example, the Forsaken One costs 410 gold / 3 food and is a counterpart to the 385 gold / 2 food Greymane. Now you would think it should be a stronger unit; but in spite of that, it actually deals a much lower dps (179.2 vs 222!) and it requires a lot of luck to tank well. Not to mention that Greymane is buffed 24/7 and FO is only "occasionally" buffed. Similar conclusion can be drawn to a lot of other Ghost units. I would like to see what made it "very strong" in normal levels.

4. Paladin? Archers make you do crap at level 10, knights are again, one of those subpar Tier 5 melees compared to Goblin Blaster/Wandigoo/Greymane/Goliath/Krogroth. The nerfed priests require too much resource commitments for it to "support" properly. Again, not very cost-effective to me.

I hope it's interesting read. no TLDR's necessary D

 

[Gazelle]

Hmm. The way I see it:
1. Goblin tanks are really subpar compared to Mech's. They have a shorter range, which hinders their ability of forming a concave. They even have a lower dps per cost that surprised me, considering it is a smaller unit. The free Geo/Clocks that pop out after the tank die is pretty comedic, but that's about all they could do lol.

2. For Elf, it's kind of obvious you shouldn't put your bets on mass wardens, as it will fail pretty hard to lv24/29+. So I'm guessing the main carry unit of Elf is going to be Druids, since it has optimal dps per cost (and good hp too, at the same time). But the fact that magic damage isn't as reliable as Siege still puts me in doubt of this race, because you know, druids can't tank like phoenixes .

3. It seems to me that Ghost units are not very cost-effective (before lv30). They all have really low dps/health to cost ratio and thus you don't exactly get the stuff you paid for. For example, the Forsaken One costs 410 gold / 3 food and is a counterpart to the 385 gold / 2 food Greymane. Now you would think it should be a stronger unit; but in spite of that, it actually deals a much lower dps (179.2 vs 222!) and it requires a lot of luck to tank well. Not to mention that Greymane is buffed 24/7 and FO is only "occasionally" buffed. Similar conclusion can be drawn to a lot of other Ghost units. I would like to see what made it "very strong" in normal levels.

4. Paladin? Archers make you do crap at level 10, knights are again, one of those subpar Tier 5 melees compared to Goblin Blaster/Wandigoo/Greymane/Goliath/Krogroth. The nerfed priests require too much resource commitments for it to "support" properly. Again, not very cost-effective to me.

I hope it's interesting read. no TLDR's necessary D

1. Steamroller are weaker than Doomsday but less expensive.
How I see it, its exacly because goblin's tank have lower range that copter can stay out of trouble, while captain die rly fast, which make goblin's dps better for the cost overall.
Also, steamroller hp racio is better than doomsday machine hp racio.
The only minus is the lower range of steamroller but they are also smaller so they block themself less than doomsday.

2. I never build forsaken, or rarely cause they rly "suck" lol.
Only because they need to get close to unit before getting the bonus amor makes them so weaker than greymane on ranged lvls.
Phantom/hellraiser dps is the best in game but against bosses, dont underestimate spell dmg late game.
With some tank in front massing them makes pretty much one of the best defense at those hard lvls like 28.

3. For elf, ofc you make only 1 line of warden which are very strong tank.
Druids have a part of spell dmg which is very effective, or Ascendant lower armor which make their magic dmg more effective than most attack type.
-Ascendant 420gold, 1450 hp.
-Fenix 745gold, 1700hp + 360mana
I think ascendant can still tank fine for the cost and almost no colision.
Dont forget my point here is that elf can be very strong late game, not that its better than element.

4. I never said paladin was strong at lvl 10, its exacly like ghost, very strong before 10 but bad at boss. (depending how you build it)
Also, strong late game, not mid game, exaclty because their tank is "ok" and healer are useless again.
I talked about archers, and Griffins, not healers and cavalier lol.
We shouldn't be arguing on what we both agree on... and before you say it, archer are weak after lvl 10, but they are effective enough to give you a good boost on income for later.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

In a lot of games I see Goblin players mass tanks and the 325 range won't allow backrow tanks to fire. In the case of Mech buffers die too fast, I build like 6 of them late game, and try to make them stuck at backrow as long as possible. They won't die out anytime before the other melee units die anyways.
Not counting the hp from clocks, Assault tank's hp-cost ratio is lower than DD machine. (0.3511 vs 0.3722) And the reason for not counting summon, because they don't do 260 dps anymore .


So, if you don't build forsakens, what will tank for phantoms? ... weee souls of heroes lol. But seriously, ghost needs melee tanks from other races.

hands shaken on elf. (fenix has 340 mana btw)

I don't see how Griffins are good. They belong to one of the more expensive Tier 6's, yet doesn't really shine anywhere. DPS is 200 which is really low, the bounce doesn't seem to do a lot of damage either. No ability and magic damage on top of that... everything to make it a bad carry unit. I usually make 1-2 Dragon Hawks for lv10 (impossible to beat otherwise, but even if you have them it's not guranteed) and stop there. However, I guess if I need to play paladin without cb I would build dragon hawks as my main unit. (meh magic/medium... will still get owned hard late game)

 

[Gazelle]

If I build outcast I rarely up them, for 200 gold its a fine tank, and soul hero is ok but kinda weak lol.

I just tested in single player for lvl 28 which is I believe the most important lvl to be strong at late game. It also gave me a good idea of what would happen on the other lvls.
I built for 13k value of tanks with goblin and mech, auras in the back.
Result at lvl 28:

Mech: 1 tank left, many tanks were blocking, barely killed the lvl.
Goblin: over 12 tanks left copter still standing, almost all tanks were attacking.
There were ofc many more stearoller and yet less blocking.

Because of blocking, doomsday are doing better against melee lvls though, but still not as good as steamroller.

I agree doomsday is strong, just had an epic game with them tonight, but without cb mode goblin wins against mech.
Also if you make a full defense with melee in front of tanks I prefer by far Goblin Blaster to Krogoth.

For paladin I agree they arent "that strong" btw I often mass dragon hawk before upgrading them, dps is better.
But they are still better late game than beast, undead, maybe even arctic, orc and marine.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Just tested too. Never thought assault tanks can be this impressive. You are right about the clogging on lv28, DD machine is indeed more severe than Assault Tanks on that. This level highly depends on luck (whether you have red hp tanks hitting or not)

Do note that the clogging issue wouldn't exist on any other levels, where either you don't have enough tanks, or the level has a shorter range.

My results: (formation is tri-hexagon)
2-8 DD machines leftover
5-12 Assault Tanks + copters leftover

But it's not over; pure tanks only exist on paper. In a real game there would be tier 5 melees tanking the siege damage for your tanks. (what irony xD) and thus you would have about a row of tanks, which would be delivering free hits and not clogging.

So the conclusion is drawn: for beating level 28, the optimal amount of tanks in a real game is one row; be it 10 DD machines or 14 Assault Tanks. They deal approximately the same dps, DD machines cost a bit less and hits from farther away, but assault tanks last longer in case your front row fails.

I still prefer DD machine though, they synthesize better with Oracles.

Edit: Goblin>Mech without cb on 28? I don't think so.

Just tested. Doomsday/Krogoth looks pretty even to Assault/Blasters, if not better, since Krogoth helped buffers to live longer.

Also for 30+, Mech is likely to better Goblin because of zeus.

 

[Gazelle]

I stoped at 13k value because it was the req value, but I always have around 15k value at lvl 28, just didnt wanted to test for too long with melee in front.
But in a real game you will have blocking later if you have a big defence, 1 line of DD machine is only 7290 value.

And yes I know, I did mentionned DD machine works better on melee, but lvl 24,28,29,30 are the most important one. (only 1 on 4 is melee)
And at lvl 31, captain will already be dead, copter still standing, anyway I dont think you'll convince me that DD machine are more effective.
If I get them with prophet, or if I have mech I'll build them, but if I had to choose, I'll play with stearoller.
I do have a stronger start with mech builder than goblin though.

With cb mode the good point for DD machine, as you said great with oracle.
For steamroller, low range tanks allow all support to hide behind that huge wall, and also units like fenix etc.

I would also like to say than for lvl 31, you will be much better with only 1 player massing DD machine, the other steamroller, than 2 players with the same tanks.

 

[Gazelle]

Alot of player started to host 3.42 I think its time to releash another version lol.
I'm telling most host but many just dont care.

 

[HuanAk]

Check out this link, There are 5 difference 3.3 fake version that still hosting on Battlenet :
http://www.mapgnome.org/query/2386326/sort-hosted/all/1


But I havn't seen any success cracked on 3.41 yet:
http://forum.wc3edit.net/fulfilled-requests-f75/legion-td-mega-3-41-t23171.html

---------

3.42 is base on beta 3, and somehow I didn't turn on anti-cheat for that version

Next time I will remove loading screen on beta, and add lots of raw text (like 3.3's), so people can see the difference between "final beta" and "final release".

 

[Gazelle]

Check out this link, There are 5 difference 3.3 fake version that still hosting on Battlenet :
http://www.mapgnome.org/query/2386326/sort-hosted/all/1


But I havn't seen any success cracked on 3.41 yet:
http://forum.wc3edit.net/fulfilled-requests-f75/legion-td-mega-3-41-t23171.html

---------

3.42 is base on beta 3, and somehow I didn't turn on anti-cheat for that version

Next time I will remove loading screen on beta, and add lots of raw text (like 3.3's), so people can see the difference between "final beta" and "final release".

Ok so only beta 3 is hacked... well still suck, some people actualy prefer beta 3 because of gold change you did later. So everyone is hosting it :S

And lol on your second link, I find those people so lame "oh thx so much for hacking the map! I'm too stupid to play the real game I need cheats to win!"

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Doing race tests for level 31... Oracle buff does not work for lv31 (initial level). I assume it's not intentonal, because it works fine for the next wave.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

The result of my first lv31 race contests has finally settled!

I built all races to approx. 18750 value, try to optimize their lv31 power, and put them straight into the misery of gay armored Legion Lords!

Here are the results: (front, mid, backrow, buffers not mentioned)---------Kills
Beast (a row of bears, several harpies, Dragons)-------------------------------36
Nature (a row of Knowledge, 3 slow aura/Goliath, mass Thunderbird)------36
Arctic (a row of Wandigoo, 3 slow aura, row of Ice Shaman, Dragons)------35
Elf (row of Warden, row of Ascendant, 3 rows of Druid, Mavericks)----------48
Orc (row of Thrall, row of Warchief, 2 rows of Wolverine, row of Warlock, Wind Riders)--46
Shadow (2 rows of Doppel, Hades)------------------------------------------------22 (WTF. Full mana, old summons timed up, still won't summon.)
Element (row of Mud, 1.5 row of Phoenix, Disciples)---------------------------38
Ghost (row of Forsaken, 4 row of Hellraiser+6 Mercurial, 6 Meridian)------78
Mech (7 Krogoth, 1.2 row of tank, mass Zeus)----------------------------------64
Goblin (row of Blaster, tanks tanks tanks)---------------------------------------47
Marine (Pure hydra, a row of mermaid/Highborn)------------------------------55
Demi (7 Bigfoot+29 Mutant+6 Oracles to buff all, Medicine men)------------68 (1450 lumber spent to buff Mutants, no Oracle buff for first fight)
Paladin (row of Cavalier, 2 row of Griffin, row of Priest)-----------------------46 (won't pass lv30)
Undead (Guardian+3 Pudge, 1.5 row of dragon, Necros)---------------------42

QQ shadow and element... Looks like I need some revisions in my "strong unit" post...

 

[wcen]

What does the number represent? No of kills?

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Yea, I kinda wanted to mention that but don't wanna edit the post again.

 

[Gazelle]

Mass zeus is better than mass tank with mech?
You Blocked captain behind zeus? I think that's pretty much the best way.

Why 2 row of dopple with shadow? Btw with the new shity cooldown with hades I would make half lord of dead or something.

I knew for a while ghost was dominating that lvl especialy since its ignoring the armor.
If you focus more on hell raiser you'll get a even better result, ofc you need a few meridian for lvl 20 and 30.

Element would do much better in a team game with better tanks to defend fenix. Ofc at 31, mana reg is useless since they die too fast.

Surprised how good marine did.

For the previous mech vs goblin im not so surprised I knew mech would do great, I thought goblin would do better though.
After the first fight when all towers go mid, creeps come in straight line and mech has a better dps and range deal on them so they can kill more before actualy being dmged. (and its a melee lvl not ranged)

Nice with demi I always liked mutants

 

[Gazelle]

Hm I finally decided to install garena master so I wouldn't have to wait to join a room.

Then I started playing, for fun I tried reveal map stuff to see how it was working, wc3 closed saying I was cheating.

Then disable hack, play again, and wc3 keep crashing saying I'm eachting when I'm not lol...

Could anyone explain me why?

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

1.Zeus has really small size (which is good) so no blocking. If I get lucky the tank row can block an admiral for me. The thing is, you don't really need the captain buffs to do well with mech. the buffs from the king is quite fine already.

2. Since no summons for the second wave... Shadow is going to do shit no matter what I built. (Huan don't blame me for changing it, I didn't ask for not summoning when the old summon timed up lol.)

3. Perhaps I could cut some Meridians, (Mercurials debuffs really help your units live longer) but that will mean more Hellraisers idling at back during initial wave (also suspectible for lv29, bec you need the magic dmg)

4. If things are tanking for Phoenix, it means they aren't taking dmg to regenrate... Anyways things aren't looking good for element's 31+ capability. You might wonder why the disciples would do not nearly as good as zeus, it's because of the missile speed and range. Zeus focus is just really really good.

5. Marine did well because hydras have freakin' 4060 HP each. However, pure hydras isn't a legit build because it will struggle a lot vs. tough armor/attack types (like lv18).

6. For Goblin, the issue is exactly the range. Not being able to own some leglords as they approach can really bring down the score. Didn't try mass machine robots but I highly doubt if it is going to do any better if not worse.

7. You sacrifice a demon for demi that could have been used to attack, so I don't know if that is a big pitfall or a small one. How much of a difference will a demon make at the initial lv31?

@war3 problem, Dunno if it is the same problem, but it's just a message dialog box for me... Ignore it (dont click ok) and keep playing and nothing would happen .

 

[Gazelle]

Its not the same problem, my wc3 just close itself saying to reinstall wc3 remove cheat and then keep playing...

I dont understand since everyone is using hack, maybe I had to disable more commands, alot were default so I didnt touch them.

I personnally never wonder why disciple wouldn't do as good as zeus, its kinda obvious.
I never massed them I find disciple rly weak and too low on range, even meliai is better.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Disciples actually look pretty even to zeus on paper if not better. (slightly less cost, more hp, more dps, synergy with mana aura)
But the other attributes (range, attack animation, missile speed, collision size) made it bad I guess.

 

[Gazelle]

Disciples actually look pretty even to zeus on paper if not better. (slightly less cost, more hp, more dps, synergy with mana aura)
But the other attributes (range, attack animation, missile speed, collision size) made it bad I guess.

I think attack animation is their main problem, same reason why zeus are better than meliai, much faster projectile makes them much better.
If they had faster attack speed with faster projectile, even with the range they have now they would be ok.
They do a little like dragons, they target an enemy, but if the enemy die, then they stop and kinda waste an attack to target another one etc.

Anyway I'm not the biggest fan of zeus since they often fail on lvls like 17, I rarely make a full line.
Btw if you make ALOT of zeus there will have alot of blocking, especialy on ranged lvls.

Edit: Oh one more thing, this delay on attack that looks like an attack is wasted happen ofc much more with slow attack unit.
That's why fast attack unit are better at start, but late game, creeps have much more hp so slow attack unit do much better there.
So on your lvl 31 test many races with tier 6 that kinda suck early game did fine at that lvl, like undead.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Ofc you don't get a lot of them early game. I never massed zeus for late game either, but after this test I might. My bet is having at most 4 zeus for most part of the game, but start massing them at the very end (26+ or something) when tanks filled up the mid row space. (linear algebra anyone?)

To me the only reason dragons can get "some" kills is because they are air. Huan already improved their attack animation, so their breath comes out even before their mouth open

Undead is best of the three dragon races because it had a bit more legitimate backrow outputs. If we try to improve the score we might do it by cutting pudge/dragons.

So far I can get Beast's score from 36-->39, Goblin from 47->49, by adding bears/machine robots respectively. Nature also 36-->40 without doing anything lol.

 

[Gazelle]

Did you tried nature with meliai behind thunderbird, 1 or 2 lanes, they are kinda good too and too many thunderbird result often in part of them not fighting at 31.

And what's the result for only three of knowledge, or a row of tree of healing maybe instead of knowledge?

I keep playing undead to find a good way to play them and its such a weak race lol...
I tested pudge and they rly are bad, they should be doing fine at lvl like 17, but not rly.
Also super weak at lvl 14-15, and the guardian alternative kinda suck too because they have too low dps and splash.
Everytime I try to include war machines to my defense it fail badly.
Only good unit is necro, but clearly need some better tanks.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Meliai has rly bad dps and as you said before, missile speed. Their attacks most likely won't leave a scratch on leglords (they also take up too much space for their cost too). I sincerely wish I could get them as mech tho. LOL

I choose thunderbirds bec they have some magic damage, and also flying. No units were idling in my Nature build.

The heal trees are meh. They do less dps and have less hp. The heal is insignificant for their cost. At least ToK's explosions can put it a little closer to Hellraiser's awesomeness xD.

For undead, try to use Guardians the same way you use Warchiefs. For 20 gold more you get 150 more hp which is supposed to be good.

Just got 61 and 64 kills with paladin/goblin... Pierce units ftw (more fail for pala at 30). 48 with mass oceans for element.

 

[Gazelle]

Hm tell me if I'm wrong:

Zeus dps is 68 + skill which is +50 dmg every 10 attack.
Attack speed of .25 so its 50 dmg every 2.5 sec which mean 20 dps
So 88 dps on zeus for 215 gold, ratio of .409

Meliai dps is 46.1 + skills
- 33% change to deal 160% so overall 120% bonus dmg every attack
- 25% more dmg from piersing so 125% bonus dmg every attack
46.1*120%*125% = 69.15 dps for 155 gold ratio is .446

So meliai dps would be actualy better, but animation and range of zeus + the cost might make it a more effective unit.
My math may also be wrong let me know if its the case lol.

For undead yeah I tried to play with guardians that but I dont know, its not rly working so well for me, and 320 gold is hard to save early, would have to stop income.
Maybe if they had either slower attack, higher dmg like warchief, or lower dmg faster attack.
Because it seem their dmg just dont suit for lvls under 10, work only very good at lvl 7.
If you take warchief at lvl 8, they kill 1 hit which is pretty useful.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

You are right about meliai, but for lv31 powers solely, each zeus deals 110+dps due to the fact that spell damage is 132% more effective. 155 gold also mean they take up lots of space when massed, which results in more idling units.

Tier 1 unit is pretty important for undead early game, try to use them (but dont overbuild, as they have little hp and range).

 

[Gazelle]

On version 3.3 I was always building far away from entrance, just at the start of dark green arena where the wall end.
That way you have extra space for more towers on the side, can add up to 3+ rows, so 12+ rows instead of 9, and yet you will fight without the bonus armor.
This way of playing is very usefull if you plan on massing less expensive towers like druids, hell raiser etc.
Would also enable you to build a line of meliai behind thunderbirds (which is an already cheap unit) without problem.
Also usefull with zeus, marverick, wolverines etc.

With undead I rly did tried all ways, revenant included, worked "ok" at start, but undead is very weak at lvls like 14 and 17 and making those towers rly wont help.
I prefer massing necros their dps is better.
I tried revenant mainly so they could protect necro's summon, but that makes too many weak units after lvl 10.

 

[MastaKilla]

Hey huan,

I did some thinking about the lag/delay thing and I can't let the idea go, that some specific unit might be responsible for causing such insane delays.

I just had a game with 8 players, with massive delay right in round 2. I instantly checked the pings and all pings were between 11 and 53ms, so very good pings!

And I think it has to be some unit or some combination of units causing the delay, as round 2 is pretty early and all the pings were constantly very good.

Maybe there is some endless loop or something, something being not terminated correctly, but is then ended by the new round trigger which normalizes the delay for a little while (or something like that.. i just try a shot in the dark here..) until the same "error" happens again

To narraw to problem down, I wrote down all the units being built in round 1 and round 2(unfortunately someone leaked in round 1 and i couldn't tell if the delay was already there in round 1, but it was definitely there in round 2 and all the later rounds till game ended in round 20)

New units in round 1:

Tier 1:
Wolverine
Tuskarr

Tier 2:
Frenzy Ghoul
Archer
Geomancer

Tier 3:
Ice Troll
Nightsaber

Tier 4:
Tree of Travel

Tier 5:
Halfbreed

Tier 6:
Orc Warchief

New units in round 2:

Tier 1:
Tuskarr Spearman

Tier 2:
Elite Archer
Clockwreck

Tier 3:
Machine Turret

Tier 4:
Prisoner
Mudman
Necromancer

So those are all the units which were built until round 2 started. Maybe you can take a look at it and maybe u can find some errors in the map code!
I think some/one of the units in round 1 are already responsible for the delay, but like i said, can't tell for sure if the delay was there in round 1.

if needed, find the replay attached.

greets

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

I think I found the reason why disciple wouldn't work as well as expected...

Disciple, zeus, messiah, fire archer's +damage orb ability are based on the ladder ability Searing Arrow, which actually deals PHYSICAL damage, not SPELL. They don't ignore armor... My above post is also wrong xD.

Huan, could you change base ability of these abilities to Orb of Annihiliation? because they are meant to deal spell damage (apparently you think so too when you mentioned Disciple for lv28).

 

[Gazelle]

I think I found the reason why disciple wouldn't work as well as expected...

Disciple, zeus, messiah, fire archer's +damage orb ability are based on the ladder ability Searing Arrow, which actually deals PHYSICAL damage, not SPELL. They don't ignore armor... My above post is also wrong xD.

Huan, could you change base ability of these abilities to Orb of Annihiliation? because they are meant to deal spell damage (apparently you think so too when you mentioned Disciple for lv28).

Hm interresting this would also explain why I always thought zeus should do fine at lvl 20 but yet, it never worked as good as expected

 

[HuanAk]

Hey huan,

I did some thinking about the lag/delay thing and I can't let the idea go, that some specific unit might be responsible for causing such insane delays.

I just had a game with 8 players, with massive delay right in round 2. I instantly checked the pings and all pings were between 11 and 53ms, so very good pings!

And I think it has to be some unit or some combination of units causing the delay, as round 2 is pretty early and all the pings were constantly very good.

Maybe there is some endless loop or something, something being not terminated correctly, but is then ended by the new round trigger which normalizes the delay for a little while (or something like that.. i just try a shot in the dark here..) until the same "error" happens again

To narraw to problem down, I wrote down all the units being built in round 1 and round 2(unfortunately someone leaked in round 1 and i couldn't tell if the delay was already there in round 1, but it was definitely there in round 2 and all the later rounds till game ended in round 20)

New units in round 1:


New units in round 2:


So those are all the units which were built until round 2 started. Maybe you can take a look at it and maybe u can find some errors in the map code!
I think some/one of the units in round 1 are already responsible for the delay, but like i said, can't tell for sure if the delay was there in round 1.

if needed, find the replay attached.

greets

can't find anything special, so I have to guess:
- Clockwreck's ability is bug atm, so maybe it cause lag ?
- W3MMD cause lag ? (because it update at the end of every wave)
- Lag cause by player with slow PC ?

I remember if I use my old laptop to play legion TD, my Ping still same as play with Desktop PC. but it will lag during fight. (lots of action delay)

so keen an eye for the person with slowest loading, see if they are the one complaint for lag/delay.

 

[ArcticWolf]

I think the lag is comming from wave's not from users ... in older versions it's start to lag after 26-7(because i have 1 row(9 units) tanks to take dmg(like demi's BigFoot), 1 row tanks to make dmg(mech's demoliton), 1 row something flying(phoenix or azure), 1 row with flying and units with special auras) lvl, i think u should use the source files for waves from older maps (like 2.7 or 2.8) I think it will be better in battle and the loser's team to get some gold (like 20 ot 25) and for first battle when someone left from one team to add 10-th lvl bosses(3 of them) cause this turtle is OP, second battle is ok, gold from her must be arround 40-50... I think also u must reduce phoenix's price ... this unit with aura's from mech and goblin still making 312-330 crit dmg (normal dmg with this auras is more than the crit ) And i think it will be better to add 1 more worker and the max lumberjacking to be 14 or something like this :
if you wish u can make 7/15, after start upgr ur lumberjacking to lock 8-th worker or if you have 8 workers to lock the 15-th upgr for lumberjacking.
Mech's infantry is weaker now ... lower dmg with faster atack... it will be better like before - more dmg lower speed.
Ghost's unit for tank(that from 200 gold, now i cant remember the name ) after upgr to be with medium armor
Change beast's dragon splash attack to be double to this that now it makes, cause this unit now is really weak ... Add mercenary to -ar and -sd mode, and also remove this li , it's horrible, cause no one want to write the full mods ... some races are able to make 1 worker 1-st lvl, but because this li they cant => losing lumbers ....

P.S. I think it will be some horror to understand what i wrote, sorry :S

 

[iNfamous]

Mostly the lag has 2 reasons:
1. Poor GUI coding with mass Memory Leaks. Rewriting 80% of the code in clean vJass would reduce the lag heavily. But that needs a skilled coder and is awfully time consuming.
2. The Warcraft 3 Engine cant deal that well with mass units. At some points units will allways stop to move smoothly. (You can see that phenomenon @ level 11 perhaps)

All in all we will have to live with it i'd say.

 

[Gazelle]

Well, 3.42 is the main version hosted now, tried to explain to these host but unless i show them a link, I'm the crazy one.

I kinda stoped playing mega version.

I started playing version 2.9 with dual builder mode and 40 lvls, kinda fun.
The version is much harder so much more fun, but I went only 1 time past lvl 15 cause people can't play it.
Even though games are shorter, I still prefer it, dont see the point of too easy games and yes mega has become a noob friendly game.
Since there are more noobs than good players its kinda good for HuanAk though.

Sad thing is 2.9's races are less balanced, but dual builder mode kinda fix that.

Nice stuff that could be included in mega from 2.9, dual builder, more lvls (which I think you're already working on) gg mode give only around 1 gold per leak but no limit to how much you can get. (better than mass feed at start then nothing)

But you know, if income balance system is put back on, I dont rly see the point of trying so hard to get high income, therefor, for me, I dont see the point of playing it.
That's only my personnal opinion ofc, I think easy game are a waste of time, but many like easy game so np.

Or another option, add a chaos mode, which would make the game harder but only if host type it.

Edit: Even if people prefer easy games, they'll get bored fast (as I did after a while lol), if the game is too hard, they'll be discourage fast, but if the game is just hard enough people will keep playing and playing until they are good at it.

 

[toasted]

[...]
Nice stuff that could be included in mega from 2.9, dual builder, more lvls (which I think you're already working on) gg mode give only around 1 gold per leak but no limit to how much you can get. (better than mass feed at start then nothing)
[...]

I would also appreciate more lvls and the return of tier 3 creeps. They don't have to cost all >1500 wood but some diversity would be fine (if you do so, don't raise required lvl too much).
Dual builder is a good idea but then i would either reduce or remove change builder in this special game mode.

 

[HuanAk]

Been busy, and can't find any motivation to sit down for next version yet... but I will start working on ideas/detail now. :

Phase 1 (beta 1): end of Dec or early Jan
- Wave 30-35
- Tier 7 (can upgrade to many difference aura, can upgrade one per Master of <race> title)
- Start with 500 gold (so player can testing title system and 30-35

Phase 2:
- change back to 300 gold
- new race

Phase 3:
- minor changes eg: possible ideas: 3rd upgrade for tier 1, new mode ( too early for detail)

Possible time for final release: end of Jan

 

[Gazelle]

Been busy, and can't find any motivation to sit down for next version yet... but I will start working on ideas/detail now. :

Phase 1 (beta 1): end of Dec or early Jan
- Wave 30-35
- Tier 7 (can upgrade to many difference aura, can upgrade one per Master of <race> title)
- Start with 500 gold (so player can testing title system and 30-35

Phase 2:
- change back to 300 gold
- new race

Phase 3:
- minor changes eg: possible ideas: 3rd upgrade for tier 1, new mode ( too early for detail)

Possible time for final release: end of Jan

Nice, tier 7 and one more upgrade on most tier 1 will make x3 version much better I think.

Tier 7 will mainly be a none attacking unit? that only gives bonus aura?
With 5 new lvls, will you put another boss at lvl 35, or 5 special lvls?

Keep up the good work, I hope the stupid 3.42 version will soon be gone

 

[Aeroblyctos]

Hey, nice game you got there.

I'm keeping my thumbs-up for futher versions and development.

 

[MastaKilla]

With 5 new lvls, will you put another boss at lvl 35, or 5 special lvls?

You ever happened to noticed the "The Burning Legion" unit in the middle of the map below arena?

*hint*

ah, apropos arena: arena really needs to be made bigger or somehow reworked. there is just not enough space if its a decent 3v3 or 4v4 game. e.g. trees are always in the back, blocking and totally ruining the arena fight. like default loss..

first arena is pretty balanced if the teams are uneven by 1, 2v3, 3v4... sometimes the team with one player less wins, sometimes the other team.

but the second arena is still imbalanced, team with less player loses in like 99 of 100 games.

lookin forward to new version, like ur thoughts

 

[Tele]

Been busy, and can't find any motivation to sit down for next version yet... but I will start working on ideas/detail now. :

Phase 1 (beta 1): end of Dec or early Jan
- Wave 30-35
- Tier 7 (can upgrade to many difference aura, can upgrade one per Master of <race> title)
- Start with 500 gold (so player can testing title system and 30-35

Phase 2:
- change back to 300 gold
- new race

Phase 3:
- minor changes eg: possible ideas: 3rd upgrade for tier 1, new mode ( too early for detail)

Possible time for final release: end of Jan

A lot of people are waiting for new release! You motive us to continue playing Legion...do not leave us with empty-handed
I understand that you don't have motivation...bad luck for us

 

[toasted]

Wow, and now they are hosting a 3.43 version.

Please add a note, that the only real version is at hive or something like this.

 

[Kryzon]

Hi,
I sent an e-mail to HuanAK but I don't know if he got to see it, so I thought I should post here.

1) After the first arena level the background music breaks. We can hear the countdown sound-effect, but as soon as that ends and the battle starts the music silences.
If you force-play the music with CTRL+M twice you can hear the track HuanAK originally intended for the players to hear (a 'dramatic battle' theme), but somehow it's not being played correctly.

After the arena battle, warcraft3's default background music for the race of the player stops playing, and if you force-play it again with CTRL+M twice you can only hear the arena's 'victory theme'.

2) Everytime the Advanced Barracks receives new creep stock (like at level 10 or 15), we lose the hotkey assignment for it (hotkeyed with CTRL+1,2,3...).
You need to change the creep stock by code, not by replacing the barracks with a new house that looks just like it but has the new creep - this new house won't have the hotkey assignment.

My suggestion:
- Make the units' 'Stock Maximum' value be zero, and 'Stock Start Delay' be something like '1 second'. Keep the 'Stock Delay' as usual, don't change it.
- When the unit is supposed to be available (level 10 or 15), change 'Stock Maximum' to '2' or whatever the number it should be. The unit should be then available.

 

[Tele]

Legion TD 3.4.3 . uploaded by Huanak http://www.epicwar.com/maps/192908/

 

[toasted]

Legion TD 3.4.3 . uploaded by Huanak http://www.epicwar.com/maps/192908/

And the link leads you here with the original 3.4.1 version.
Whoever uploaded it there has to be very very dumb.