Immigration

[Deleted member 219079]

What do you benefit from voting for bringing immigrants to your country?

 

[pyf]

Diversity?

 

[Deleted member 219079]

Diversity?

How do you benefit from diversity? You have different norms and values with people migrating to your country, conflicts are highly likely (and happen as we've seen, just rarely reported by the media).

I will answer myself too:
I'd get a good feeling when I'd know that a refugee got a safe place from my country, escaping from war, natural disaster or equivalent.

 

[Archimmonde]

I benefit with getting a better job and life

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

I benefit with getting a better job and life

That is what the immigrants get if your country is better of than the country they are coming from.
The only real benefit of accepting immigrants is a population boost, which is good depending on whether you want one or not.

America benefits from immigrants because you can't stay in the country for over 5 years without becoming an American citizen, the test they give to become American includes knowing all the presidents who have ever been elected!!!! The only other option is to join the army. Which means in actual Fact America only wants immigrants to join the army so that the country can benefit off the wars they fight

 

[pyf]

How do you benefit from diversity? You have different norms and values with people migrating to your country [...]

This way:
Titan : Faces - Culture Pub

(please disregard the commercial advertising part)

 

[Deleted member 219079]

This way:
Titan : Faces - Culture Pub

I don't get it?

Another answer:
I will belong to the society if I share publicly acclaimed values, which includes voting for immigration. This way I will have better chances to survive and spread my genes.

 

[Nowow]

the test they give to become American includes knowing all the presidents who have ever been elected!!!!

45 names including the current one, have mercy! Are there more difficult parts to this test? Because if you really want to you can memorize it in two weeks tops. Small price for citizenship.

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

45 names including the current one, have mercy! Are there more difficult parts to this test? Because if you really want to you can memorize it in two weeks tops. Small price for citizenship.

There are history questions as well.
'Who cracked the liability bell'
'Is the statement, 'The British are coming' an accurate representation of history'
'What is 'The shot that could be heard around the world' referring to?'

Questions Americans wouldn't even know, questions that are so tripy that the answer could be anything, Questions that I really have no idea what they ask of you.

 

[Nowow]

'Who cracked the liability bell'
'Is the statement, 'The British are coming' an accurate representation of history'
'What is 'The shot that could be heard around the world' referring to?'

1. No idea.
2. I think no.
3. The assassination of JFK. Otherwise it's the assassination of Franz Ferdinand sparking WWI, which is also kinda related to the US.

But there you have it. The reason behind this test is to show some level of understanding of American society, culture and history. And they're probably not going to ask about the Kardashians for culture questions. Whether doing this test is a prudent method of granting citizenship or no, I don't think it's good, but I can't come up with much better options.

Overall I think there are more draconic parts of the citizenship grant system. The test is just another hoop to jump through.

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

1. No idea.
2. I think no.
3. The assassination of JFK. Otherwise it's the assassination of Franz Ferdinand sparking WWI, which is also kinda related to the US.

But there you have it. The reason behind this test is to show some level of understanding of American society, culture and history. And they're probably not going to ask about the Kardashians for culture questions. Whether doing this test is a prudent method of granting citizenship or no, I don't think it's good, but I can't come up with much better options.

Overall I think there are more draconic parts of the citizenship grant system. The test is just another hoop to jump through.

you got all the questions wrong by the way, but don't worry 2 of the 3 were trick questions.

edit, you actually did get question two correct ^-^

 

[pyf]

you got all the questions wrong by the way, but don't worry 2 of the 3 were trick questions.

No-one cracked the 'liability bell', because no such thing exists in American history in the first place.


As for the third question:
"In addition to the American Revolution, the 'shot heard round the world' became associated with other historical events, such as the 1914 assassination of Austria’s Archduke Franz Ferdinand, which helped trigger World War I, and the 1951 game-winning, three-run homer by the New York Giants’ Bobby Thomson against the Brooklyn Dodgers; thanks to Thomson’s 'shot,' the Giants nabbed the National League pennant."

What was the “shot heard round the world”? - Ask History


@Nowow: congratulations, 3 out of 3

 

[Nowow]

Where's mah US citizenship?!?!!

@pyf I automatically assumed he meant the liberty bell. But I still have no idea...

 

[pyf]

Where's mah US citizenship?!?!!

@pyf I automatically assumed he meant the liberty bell. But I still have no idea...

Might possibly be a bit too late for that:
Immigration policy of the Donald Trump administration - Wikipedia

About the Liberty Bell:
Why is the Liberty Bell cracked? - Ask History

 

[Chaosy]

School goes down the drain, health care as well.

Why? because in Sweden every immigrant is granted a -free- visit to the dentist. Which sounds nice on paper until you realize the dentist is payed by taxes which would be used for education or health care.
Fuck immigration.

Not to mention that if you don't have a job - no problem, you get some survival money - from our taxes.

 

[The_Silent]

It adds more people, whether that is good or bad depends on what those people do. Same goes for the natively born. Good integration allows immegrants to give back to the country they're immegrating to (taxes, work, science, culture, etc), bad (or a lack of) integration might make them a burden. Again, the same goes for native born people and education and work.

 

[Chaosy]

Good luck having a "good" integration if the person immigrating is uneducated.
1-2 years of learning the basic language and then 10 years of normal education. And that's counting kindly.

So fair enough, let's pay for the basic education like any other person. (In Sweden where school is free)
Except, in normal circumstances, the parent(s) are paying for the living expenses so the government only need to pay for the education.
So the government have to pay double.

Let's move forward, after the government has payed for your education and living expenses for 10+ years.
You pay normal taxes despite having cost more than most.
Sounds about fair doesn't it?

Also, if we look at it from another view. It will take twice as long for this person to repay.
We might be talking 30-40 years here, and in Sweden you only work until you're 65.

A pretty crappy investment.

 

[The_Silent]

Immigrants are not generally totally uneducated, except if they're kids under a certain age. Most of them previously had jobs, since they come from countries without social support.

I'd like to know where you have those numbers from. Are they conjecture, or are they actual stats from somewhere? Post-factual society has moved to a point where I no longer care about peoples opinions if statistics exist.

 

[Chaosy]

Immigrants are not generally totally uneducated, except if they're kids under a certain age. Most of them previously had jobs, since they come from countries without social support.

I'd like to know where you have those numbers from. Are they conjecture, or are they actual stats from somewhere? Post-factual society has moved to a point where I no longer care about peoples opinions if statistics exist.

Right now we have a lot of families coming in from syria, I do not know exactly how high their education is there. But I do know that they do not know Swedish or English which makes it impossible to teach them. With normal methods anyway, they are put in normal classes like any other kid, and our teachers do not know their language obviously. There is some teachers that are hired to help these kids out by speaking in their mothertongue, however, the demand is too high and the supply too short so they do not get enough time with this teacher. One school have maybe one or two of those teachers, and there are probably 1-2 immigrants per class. My mother is a teacher so I got second hand knowledge of the situation, she has worked on 2-3 schools the last 5 years or so.

My numbers were mostly made up with logic.
1-2 years = the time it takes for a baby to learn a language from scratch. And that is pretty poor language so if you learn quicker than a baby, your language would be acceptable by that time - probably.
10 years of education is mandatory in Sweden.
30-40 years is made up, but it does not matter, it's the percentage difference that is the problem here. The immigrant in my scenario costs more and pays equal to someone who cost less, exactly how much more is not really important.

 

[The_Silent]

Well, the media is sensationalist, which means they make statistically rare events seem common through over-representation. They rely on anecdotal evidence, which is not reliable, and every news source has an, often political, agenda. Which is why I would take any media, no matter their leaning, with a grain (or 3 tonnes) off salt.

Then there is the internet, which you can use to prove any claim, no matter how preposterous. Flat earth, chemtrails, giants, lizard-people, ect.
So basically, we're all doomed when it comes to know what is fact, and what is fiction. The internet is this regard is often even worse than other sources of news, since anyone can claim anything unchallenged; and often sound intelligent to boot.

When listening to certain media, you'll realize that the claimed problems is always places you're not. America media loves to claim that Europe is/has collapsed and is a islamist hellhole. Which is easy, since very few Americans will ever be able to check themselves.

Right now the media has a boner for immigration, making them the great scapegoat of the 21st century. Statistically speaking, I find they're not that significant many places in the western world (but do check for yourself). I cannot speak for every country out there, obviously, so I recommend that before anyone decides that anything is the bane of western civilization, that they look at the statistics, rather than the alarmist media (for previously mentioned reasons).

tl;dr
The media, and the internet, is not reliable sources of information, look at the raw quantifiable data, aka statistics. And use source criticism even so.

 

[pyf]

I'd like to know where you have those numbers from. Are they conjecture, or are they actual stats from somewhere? Post-factual society has moved to a point where I no longer care about peoples opinions if statistics exist.

My numbers were mostly made up with logic.
1-2 years = the time it takes for a baby to learn a language from scratch. And that is pretty poor language so if you learn quicker than a baby, your language would be acceptable by that time - probably.
10 years of education is mandatory in Sweden.
30-40 years is made up, but it does not matter, it's the percentage difference that is the problem here. The immigrant in my scenario costs more and pays equal to someone who cost less, exactly how much more is not really important.

@The_Silent @Chaosy

Facts, numbers and worldwide comparisons from the [CIA] World Factbook:
Sweden - The World Factbook — Central Intelligence Agency
The World Factbook — Central Intelligence Agency

Fyi, the fields in the Economy category were updated one month ago for all countries, with the latest available data. This category is updated once a year, around January-February.


** update **

tl;dr
The media, and the internet, is not reliable sources of information, look at the raw quantifiable data, aka statistics. And use source criticism even so.

 

[Nowow]

1-2 years = the time it takes for a baby to learn a language from scratch. And that is pretty poor language so if you learn quicker than a baby, your language would be acceptable by that time - probably

Actually it would take more than 2 years to learn. Babies learn language in a non-structured way in 2-3 years, but this learning curve becomes much steeper as the person grows up. Especially if that language is entirely different from what you're used to.

Also, while a large part of the immigrants might not be educated, they do have a profession. These people fled from cities, where they most probably held some sort of family business like a bakery or cloth making. Problem is those professions are not as required in an industrialized western country.

 

[chobibo]

Depends, if the immigrant has a lot of cash on hand and is willing to waste it all in our country... Welcome. Although, a lot of people here want to emigrate so I guess it'll get sorted out eventually haha XD

Also, fun? What I mean is that you get laughs from hearing foreigners speaking in your language (whilst they are still learning and not yet familiar with it). It works both ways though so the immigrant has some laughs too so the both of you share laughs. Anyway, the Philippines is now a haven for SJW people so I have problems enjoying it publicly nowadays.

If ever the immigrant gets good enough with the language, the locals treat him or her naturally, like asking you to drink liquor with them or asking a loan that won't be paid, bring over food you don't like nor want to eat at first sight, and of course, gossip... "Hey, did you know? Mr X is seeing Mrs Y!" things like that. The overall impact really depends on the type of person the immigrant is.

Now if you are asking if I (personally) like the idea of immigrants, then I got no problem with them. I don't think they're outrageously different or anything disagreeable, nor are they capable of ruining the country, we already have politicians for that line of work. What I just like to think is that there are shit people and there are nice ones, and that foreigners can fit with those categories or classification or whatever you want to call that. One time we had someone from Germany who started living here, he didn't like us though and I think it was him who resisted integrating with us. Sometimes he would accuse us of stealing his stuff and sometimes he'd just be rude and shout at us, especially in the morning, I don't know why though. Another time there was this Japanese guy, he would join in on whatever else the locals would do and shove stuff in his mouth that we told him is edible. There was also this guy from Korea (I have no idea if south or north) who loved gossiping, he must have been here for a long time since he knows Tagalog well.

On the issue you guys are talking about, that Germany extortion thing, I guess it's not really the immigrants that are to blame but the people who gave them the said "benefits". Sounds like politicians to me, Oh boy!

Hope that helped Jon, I'm back to loli watching man, see you around.

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

The whole issue with the immigration isn't a choice. Countries are basically forced to accept these Immigrants, this is why the UK has pulled out of the European union.

Stop the Immigrants by any means!

 

[Zombie]

Depends on what sort of immigrants.

 

[MatiS]

Depends on what sort of immigrants.

Yeah, mostly that. My argument here will be huge hyperbolization, but I think it's rather accurate.
So, immigrants generally fall into two categories. First one are people, who come to the richer countries to work. They don't have to assimilate, but they interact with society and show respect to the local culture, so locals treat them with respect too. Many of them are rather well educated, and some start their own buisinesses (especially Asians, I don't know why). These immigrants boost economy of the country, create jobs for locals and do not cause problems for anyone. I've seen many of them, and that's kind of immigration I strongly support.

Well, there is also another kind of immigrants. These are the guys Chaosy was talking about. They do not come to the country to work. They come for social help only. They want to live for free and have idealised vision of said country. And that's a huge problem. Most of this people are low-educated and they live only for country's (so citizien's) money. They also have no hope of getting well-payed job, mostly because they have no qualifications and they don't really want to. Lack of hope and being poor leads to pathology. Pathology is really good for crime, religious fanaticism etc. Of course every country has it's own pathological citiziens, but importing more is generally not a good idea. In my humble opinion every immigrant who belongs to this category should be sent away, because he hurts both locals, himself and his family. Plus countries are not charity fundations.

This divide causes even more problems. Right side populist treat all immigrants as this second category (which makes me really angry, because I'm a conservative libertarian, so I identify with political right :-(), which leads to racism towards normal immigrants. On the other site, left site populists say that taxpayers should pay for every single poor person on the world (that's a generalization, but their propaganda mostly leads to that), and everyone who disagrees is nazi, racist etc. This is also dangerous, because it endangers freedom of speech and makes people blind to the obvious pathologies.
That being said, people should be much more open-minded about the immigration and do not treat all people the same, but at the same time they shouldn't be afraid of expressing harsh opinions about some immigrants.

 

[MatiS]

The so called 'refugees' problem should not exist at all. Refugee status should be given only to people in first safe country they approach (EU and team do not share any border with Syria). So most of this people are just economical immigrants that easily fall into the second category I mentioned in my previous post (ofc there are exceptions that really need help or want to work). Countries are not charity organisations. If somebody wants to help people, that's good for them, but they should do it individually and do not expect any gov help. Any help from the government always costs tax money (to help they always raise taxes, in many different ways), and this money should be spent on citiziens (or stay in their pockets in the best situation). There is one more thing. The most important matter for the government should be citiziens (their freedom and personal property), and said government should be ready to do everything to protect those values. Even more, if saving one citizien requires nuking half of the planet, the government should do it (ofc such situation is impossible), because only citiziens give up part of their freedom to the government. So, if any action taken by the government threatens freedom of a single citizien and doesn't give anything in return, said government cannot do it. That doesn't mean that individual citiziens cannot do it, because they can take the risk. Gov cannot.

 

[Chaosy]

Quoting myself.

Spoiler

Take the joke with a grain of salt.
Though this did actually happen.

 

[pyf]

Quoting myself.

Spoiler

Take the joke with a grain of salt.
Though this did actually happen.

Meme vs. facts, for those who care:
- about 'Trump': Last Night in Sweden - Wikipedia
- about 'Media': Media of Sweden - Wikipedia
- about 'Today': 2017 Rinkeby riots - Wikipedia

Also, here is another link of possible interest imho:
Immigration to Sweden - Wikipedia

 

[Deleted member 219079]

- about 'Trump': Last Night in Sweden - Wikipedia

he falsely claimed that the previous day Sweden had suffered a terrorist attack

Expect that he didn't... Sad to see that written there and article locked.

Here's the bottom line. We've got to keep our country safe. You look at what's happening. We've got to keep our country safe. You look at what's happening in Germany, you look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this. Sweden. They took in large numbers. They're having problems like they never thought possible.

So you could say he implied large numbers being taken the night before. Which would be false.
What comes to statistical claims, you can really make them beneficial to your point of view, whatever it is.

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

honestly they should just create a special reform school for immigrants. like prisons but only less punishment and more to improve the possibility of reintegration into life

Like prison, the immigrants can work in this reform place to effectively pay off their living costs as they learn to adapt to this new world. however I see one problem with this, people might argue that it is prejudiced since you are basically demanding they do a menial job. Since the progression will probably start with general labour or factory work

 

[The_Silent]

Youtube videos, like blogs, webpages, etc. etc., is not credible sources of news. Not unless they cite credible sources of information and does not misuse them to make unsupported conclusions. In which case they may lend some of the original sources credibility.

The internet already has way to many know-nothings creating opinion-pieces and trying to label them as representative of reality. Sad fact is, anyone can seem credible and informed on the internet (and everywhere else), and confirmation-bias will make people who already agree with them think it is supporting evidence for their conclusion.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

He used brå...

 

[The_Silent]

Then link brå, not this guys opinion on brå.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

How on earth would that be relevant to 'What comes to statistical claims, you can really make them beneficial to your point of view, whatever it is'?

 

[The_Silent]

But I agree, people will use statistics to support claims they do not support via confirmation bias. Correlation isn't causation and all that vjass.

 

[pyf]

Then link brå, not this guys opinion on brå.

@jondrean: too late...

International comparisons - Brå
Crime and statistics - Brå

 

[Deleted member 219079]

too late...

Too late when my intention was not to give the statistics, but to note how statistics in general can be misleadingly represented in a way that is beneficial to your agenda...

 

[Pinzu]

It gives rightwingers a validity to their cause and leftwingers a false sense of virtue.
Businesses get access to cheaper labor.
Government administrators get put to work in big projects that are different from their previous day to day grind. Now they have a sense of urgency. Who doesn't like to be involved in big projects?