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[Altered Melee] If WC3 Had A Second Expansion?

Discussion in 'Idea Factory' started by Zoldam, May 3, 2018.

  1. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    The problem probably was that they wanted to keep the entire creeping and land based gameplay but adding meaningful water based gameplay would result in some maps where one might as well not even have heroes and focus almost entirely on ships. Heroes are core to the Warcraft III melee and hence not something they wanted to see banished only to some maps.
     
  2. Lordlycan

    Lordlycan

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    so what about the possibility to treat ships like transportable landmasses? Is this even doable in the WCIII engine?

    As soon as a hero enters a ship he gets shrunk to like 10 times smaller a size and you can walk them on the deck. Sails are 95% transparent. the ship can still travel north while the hero can walk from starboard to port. So a shockwave type spell can still be cast in all directions depending on where the heroes head is facing?

    Man i'd see ample opportunities to play around with currents that speed up and slow down your ships. And turn rate choices as well as change-able winddirections could actually make it very interesting. It might not be as straightforward as a terrain advantage but on the seas there's also different types of terrain winds and currents to abuse in naval combat which can be translated into warcraft III melee warfare. Perhaps even being able to play around with currents on top of the close to land type of combat where deep and shallow waters and rocks can be used to an advantage and disadvantage. And ships being used a sea buildings for bit as well in terms of projectile tanking with ships lying in the harbor.
     
  3. Trill

    Trill

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    Well, no, you still need ground forces to wipe out enemy bases and win the game. And ground forces are crippled without heroes. And ships still need gold to build, so you still gotta capture islands with mines.
    Plus they could easily give heroes ship versions - i.e. a hero morphs into a naval unit which retains its spells and stuff. Kinda how naval combat works in Age of Wonders 3.

    Early WoW had big troubles with that (not sure about modern), and it used heavily upgraded Warcraft 3 engine. So I'd say Warcraft 3 can't even dream about that.
    All you can do is:
    1) have separate ship "islands" outside main map (behind black mask), that all embarked units are teleported on. There they can fight boarding parties, and whenever ship takes damage, a random explosion happens on respective ship map bit.
    OR
    2) do it the Age of Wonder 3 way.
     
  4. Lordlycan

    Lordlycan

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    do you have an idea what the main resource-hogger is in that system? Which would make it so troublesome?

    since i'd think you might be able to try it like this. Remodel the ships to have a more clear deck, and remove the visible masts in alpha layer texturing to very low visibility. Every ship gets an anchor dummy unit. All units that board said ship are tethered to that dummy unit and become flying units but without the flying vision(only the ship provides vision) collision size decreased to 1 as well. Rotation axis of the ship should be linked to the dummy unit's orientation axis.

    When the ship sinks they will drop death in the water and take dmg overtime untill they die unless picked up by another ship. or maybe some more extensive shoreline type of code that drags them with a current until they reach land.
     
  5. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Yes except suddenly with >50% of the map filled with water there is no room for creeps, and heroes like the Blademaster cannot perform at all well hence a big part of gameplay disappears.
    Complete change to game dynamics. Probably not something that felt good.
    I am pretty sure WoW engine has always been as good as entirely different from Warcraft III. Sure it reused some components, but so has every Blizzard game from Diablo II to Overwatch.
    Or do what Warcraft III TFT did and not bother with naval combat to instead focus on refining and balancing the existing mechanics.
    Getting the dynamics to feel good in melee play would likely be the biggest problem. Such mechanics work great for turn based games or RPGs but with RTS games it can become clunky and annoying very quickly.
     
  6. Trill

    Trill

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    Creeps must guard something. Something must stand on land. There's a tiny island near waterborne creeps. Make them mostly melee, and so Blademaster can disembark on island and play out last fight from Dragon Soul.

    I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Vanilla Alpha ran on a bit tweaked Warcraft 3 engine (probably a branch from Warcraft 3 Alpha engine, I guess), and Vanilla engine was built on that, not replaced.

    What a horrible philosophy.
    Outside competitive scene balance is entirely inferior to juiciness.
     
  7. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    They would have reused parts of it, like some of the graphic code and such, however the core of the engine is totally different. For example Warcraft III does not support the client server model used by WoW at all, instead using lock step. You are probably referring to such an early time in development that in comparison StarCraft was still using the Warcraft 2 engine.
    Juiciness does not bring in money, competitive does.
     
  8. Trill

    Trill

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    Good point.
    But the "unit on moving platform casting spells" is probably part of the reused bits. So its safe to assume that it wouldn't work in Warcraft 3.

    1) Well, no. Fun attracts more people and if you're talking cybersport, then cybersportsmen play what's popular, even if its unbalanced (e.g. League of Legends). If you want a game to sell, you make it juicy. If you want to be noticed in the industry, you make juicy stuff and add interesting and original features. Chances that someone will hire a number-cruncher with zero fantasy are really low. Chances that someone will buy a game because its, like, REALLY well balanced are likewise low.
    2) We're talking about custom maps which bring zero moneys. Fun is the only thing keeping us all here.
     
  9. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    The joke is StarCraft probably brought in more money for Blizzard than Warcraft III did, at least if one excludes DotA Allstars tournaments. I believe part of the recent patches are to try and turn this around and encourage at least some competitive play as allegedly they are consulting various Asian pro WC3 scenes to help with the balance changes. This would also explain why the balance changes are pretty crazy.
     
  10. Trill

    Trill

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    Heh, Starcraft is a unique example. Few video games can boast being a whole nation's basically religion.
    And its popularity was not due to balance, but due to
    a) awesome setting (at the time at least) - i.e. juice, and
    b) crazy number of tactics and strategies in unit combinations - i.e. various new features, which you advised against, for some reason. By the "balance what you have, don't invent" philosophy Blizzard should've stuck with Warcraft I&II model, where factions were basically identical in gameplay, instead of inventing Creep, Pylons, and basically everything that an RTS needs.

    I don't think Blizzard have a master plan regarding Warcraft III. I think they just accidentally assigned a Warcraft 3 enthusiast to the Classic team, and now just don't want to lose face when the bus got rolling.
     
  11. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    I'm pretty sure most people would agree that the excellent balance of OG StarCraft is *indeed* one of the biggest reasons for it's staying power.
     
  12. Lordlycan

    Lordlycan

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    jup, but there's also something to say for perfect imbalance where some picks become better due to be popularity to something else which in turn increases the value of something a bit more niche.
     
  13. Trill

    Trill

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    Maybe, but it clearly wasn't what caught the people's eye back in the day, back when all RTSs were perfectly balanced anyway. It were new ideas. And Starcraft is more of an exception. Look at popular games - WoW wasn't balanced for a single day in its history, ditto for LoL, ditto for Heroes III, ditto... you get the point.

    New ideas and juice are what catches people's eyes, new ideas and juice in general ensure that a game or map remains relevant. There are exceptions, but there's only one South Korea and its already taken.
     
  14. disruptive_

    disruptive_

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    Right now companies (including potential sponsors) have the Esports literal dream on their radar. It's just too profitable. Whatever that is.

    One would think that you could insert yourself on it by making more competitive and/or perfectly balanced games so your product could incline more to the skill based side instead of the simple luck based side. You know, as the differentiation between a simple game (a simulation of reality on which luck is very important, and marginally skill and preparation) and a sport (a simulation of reality on which skill and preparation is more important and/or determinant than luck/chance, i.e. our beloved chess) could dictate (this was my subjective appreciation, but i think is valid enough).

    But right now this Esports thing is just plain irrational and biased speculation (like most enterprises), so game companies will simply do what they have been doing all their lifetime, and if they could force the Esports trend unto their luck or skill based games (this doesn't matter in fact) and get away with it then they will do it without hesitation (is that you Hearthstone?). Already established companies have even more incentives to do whatever they've been doing anyways.

    So yeah, i think the formula, even with this Esport trend that should've changed things a bit, is still lots of aesthetics, lots of bullshit lore (it amazes me how Blizzard justified a particular lore for HOTS, a game that is simply too amorphous to have one), lots of particles, lightnings, good ol' camera shakes, lots of resource recycling to trigger the "feel-good" nostalgia, hell...even re-recycling if you want (atleast companies are ecological). Give me fireworks, lots of fireworks.

    Internet navigation with 10-37 tabs per session, youtube videos, and others (use your imagination regarding what could be the other things), already have our brains flooding with dopamine. So a game to be good must surely trigger the reward system with a fury.