Hive's First HD Model Contest - How HD should it be?

[Shar Dundred]

Since the Hive's HD model section experiencing a certain level of growth lately, we would like
to see Hive host its first HD model contest.

Due to the complexity of HD models, we would like to know the opinions of interested participants
regarding how "deep" the contest should really be. We were under the impression that editing a model
rather than create a new one maybe a better approach.

Should it be all kinds of edits? Moderate edits with a certain "higher" level of model editing?
Or no edits at all and completely "from scratch" made models?

Let us know! Also feel free to drop in some suggestions for the theme if you want.
There's going to be a seperate theme discussion but there's no harm in collecting some opinions now already.

@Mr Ogre man, @Ken Lenard Navarro @Moonman, @Tamplier777, @Retera, @Bagysta, @ShadiHD, @Vulfar, @Ardenaso, @Beregoed, @Adamus

 

[Mr Ogre man]

Why not both? People like Shadi or Tamplier excel at merging blender and RMS, while guys like Raddazong are very very good at making geoset edits. I suggest making it a contest with, at least, 2 different entry lists; one with models that are made from scratch or have ported assets, and another one that is strictly made with Reforged assets.

 

[Barorque]

Great news, I would really like to see more great HD models from everyone on Hive who is interested.
Heh, would love to see my team split up just for this once, and create models in secret from each other!

How some technical thoughts.
While we made great progress with implementation of fully custom HD models, I'd say it's in the region of 90+% perfect.
Specifically issues that we still face are normal map calculation and some material fuckery (WoW ports don't seem to have that btw).
Also, honestly, almost nobody knows how to really do it, except.. what 2 individuals maybe?
So I'd advice against a separate or fully custom only model competition for now. Let everyone from RMS editors to professional 3D artists compete.

But I would also like to see something really above the "average".
A Reforged native model edit with different weapons and some pauldrons? - Might work, but done already, a lot (not just us).
Now same stuff but with some great retextures and custom animation? - More like it!
But what if even more can be done? Something truly genius and original? I'd like to see it.

 

[Ardenaso]

my models were simply to fill up the missing unique models for named characters and special units so mine will probably be just considered as "simple edits" but I can try nonetheless

 

[Retera]

I would hope the Keith Sizemore would publish his Batch Export Designed By: Keith Sizemore - Copyright Blizzard Entertainment 2019 program that the Reforged beta files had logs from. If he publishes that Maya export plugin and a tutorial on how to use it, similar to how the 2003 devs published the War3 Art Tools and documentation that were used to make the Frozen Throne assets, then I think this would go a long way towards making a good competition if you were going to have people make models from scratch.

I wrote Retera Model Studio but I have really no idea what programs were used to make Reforged assets. Some time maybe during last Fall or so, Kam told me in a Discord message that he was considering pitching in to help get the guys making the Chronicles of the Second War thing some tutorials on how to actually make 3D models. It was pretty late in the evening and I was probably not at my best, but I just started swearing at him a bunch. I was hoping he would realize it is not that simple because of the formats. To me it is kind of comedic, knowing that whatever tutorials that he could find would end with making files that are 99% likely to be incompatible with Reforged. Not because they can't be compatible, but because we don't have the convenient converter technology that only exists inside of Blizzard offices.

what 2 individuals maybe?

But, who knows? I have been so focused on Warsmash... and meanwhile Taylor Mouse has been working hard, so, maybe I am living in the past, actually. I suppose I do that a lot. Maybe that's why I am still here
So, if somebody says that 2 people have it figured out, then maybe a lot of people are figuring it out.

 

[Chaosy]

I won't vote since I won't join.

Though it seems silly to win with a model edit.
In spells you would not win by copying a spell and changing a few lines.

 

[Adamus]

As someone who is new to modelling, I do not create new textures or build from scratch, I just use reforged assets, because i have not yet learned how to do more, thats where all the finesse work and skill comes in. This is, of course, the beginnings as it takes some attention to detail as you have to attach things to the right bones animations etcs (preaching to the choir I know lol), but in the end, it just takes time and attention and not really that difficult when using reforged assets. I am not claiming to be good God knows you will all find something wonky in the models i posted lol, but there is some models that are being posted that are truly simple edits, they are excited that they are learning and thats great. The number of really skilled model makers I imagine is limited, but if the intention is to make other people in the hive who have a will or passion to try and compete, this may deter them, because they may get intimidated by the skill of the pro bros, so either they do not partake and be judges or you can separate their quality of work so have a pro model makers contest and new model makers contest. Keeping in mind the current abilities and tools that are accessible that can generate models. I hope it makes sense what I wrote haha. I am a fan of all of you lol... Peace

 

[Retera]

I do think I might enjoy making a model similar to the Owl Moon Priestess Reforged model that I made a while back. With these Reforged models for example, that owl rider was a simple Geomerge thing on Retera Model Studio with a late night of touchups and animation tweaks after the animation merge, but it was probably 5-8 hours of work, which is still pretty chill and is the kind of thing I could imagine doing again at some point. So, if somebody convinces me to get off my rear and make a contest entry in that style, it's possible that I would.

Though it seems silly to win with a model edit.
In spells you would not win by copying a spell and changing a few lines.

It would be cool to make a spell contest that bans anything that isn't a C++ class that extends CAbility. That way, any spell that was made would have to be new and have its own `code` column value in the SLK and couldn't just be a trigger that fires off of Channel or something. Seems silly to win with a trigger that fires off of Channel...

Anyway I know my previous post about the Keith Sizemore plugin that I wish I had was a bit silly, but if the first of this kind of HD contest requires models to be made from scratch, then that contest should be accompanied with a tutorial for HOW TO MAKE AN HD MODEL FROM SCRATCH FOR REFORGED INCLUDING AN EXAMPLE FROM START TO FINISH, otherwise I would not enter such a contest.

Edit: The tutorial should also include a description of how Reforged DDS texture layers are computer generated, since pretty clearly the in-game included models are using generated texture layers that were actually painted in 3D where the surface had the 14 parameters (Diffuse Red, Diffuse Green, Diffuse Blue, Diffuse Alpha, (Ambient)Occlusion, Roughness, Metalness, Team Color amount, Normal X, Normal Y, Normal Z, Emissive Red, Emissive Green, Emissive Blue)

 

[Mr Ogre man]

I won't vote since I won't join.

Though it seems silly to win with a model edit.
In spells you would not win by copying a spell and changing a few lines.

Sadly, Reforged modelling is not like classic modelling. You can't expect users to master blender, surface painter, RMS, photoshop, how to animate, how to optimize the model, how to edit manually skin weights in .mdl... in less than a year. Even Tamplier and Shadi have to work as a team -hell, when they make a custom unit they have several guys working together, from the concept art to the final result.

I believe that we should judge (just my take on it and from what I've seen from SD models):

Overall result.
Originality (how different it is from other assets).
Texture changes or good use of UV mapping. This should take into account proper ORMs and normals as well.
Usefulness and relation to the contest topic.
Complexity of the model.
Optimization (the model needs an icon, working portrait, footsteps, emissives when needed [though I don't believe those are mandatory], sounds...). Emissive use is a bit odd due to the stupid PopcornFX.


A good example of what the contest entries should look like is this: Mechano Spider It uses no custom textures but it's an intelligent use of UV maps, it's useful but original, the end result is great and if the contest was about, say, mechanical units, it'd be entirely related to it.

 

[Shar Dundred]

Why not both? People like Shadi or Tamplier excel at merging blender and RMS, while guys like Raddazong are very very good at making geoset edits. I suggest making it a contest with, at least, 2 different entry lists; one with models that are made from scratch or have ported assets, and another one that is strictly made with Reforged assets.

If there's enough interest, I see no reason why not to make a second contest for models
made from scratch if this one is mostly about edits.

Heh, would love to see my team split up just for this once, and create models in secret from each other!

Now that sounds promising!

Though it seems silly to win with a model edit.
In spells you would not win by copying a spell and changing a few lines.

@Mr Ogre man beat me to replying to you (and was more elaborate
than I could have been).

 

[Mr Ogre man]

If there's enough interest, I see no reason why not to make a second contest for models
made from scratch if this one is mostly about edits.

Yeah, I'd be up for that. I always wanted to try blender but I had no reason to. Even if the end result is a potato with eyes, it'd be better than doing nothing.

 

[Chaosy]

Would it not be similar to map making?

You'd use:
-Writing
-Coding
-Map Design/Terraining

As more or less mandatory with optional things like:
-Model/Texture/Icon edits
-Music/Sound
-Cinematics

In fairness, you usually lean on some things when doing a map. There is a good selection of models and such.
Still, I was never opposed to all edits. If someone makes a fantastic model+texture with footman animations, fine by me.
But if the texture+animations are straight up copied and the model is just an edit.. too far.

 

[Superfrycook]

I do some models, custom maps, altered melee, skins and all thing simple. I am looking forward to make simple, yet complexed and useful models.

 

[Mr Ogre man]

But if the texture+animations are straight up copied and the model is just an edit.. too far.

Obviously, small edits wouldn't win the competition. For the textures, there are realistically only 2 approaches, either it's a recolour or it's painted in substance painter, which is still not fully supported (and expensive if you're not a student). For the models, every asset has to be made in RMS, which is still in Beta, unless you are willing to sell a kidney to pay for blender + substance painter and end up in RMS anyway, at least for the animation part.
A footman with grunt animations and a party hat is a basic model. This one: Fel Orc - Heresiarch would be deemed to simple in a Classic contest (textures are recolours, it's "only" a geomerge and has no custom animations), but for Reforged standards it's incredibly well made.

 

[Vulfar]

This is a good idea. Variants with simple transplants are of course boring. Yes, they bring some variety, but it's still more interesting when the model is still repainted and something new is assembled from different elements. The competition will be a good way to demonstrate the development potential of the reforged model's base. When people will see the results in the form of various interesting models, then some will feel the desire to try to do something of their own. But don't forget about the educational base, which many people simply don't have enough to start creating.

Models made from scratch can be fitted to reforged skeletons and then simply transfer animations. Just how many people here are able to model good quality game resources? Personally, I am now studying and taking courses)

I would also like to add that now, the resources of World of Warcraft are more relevant than ever and can bring a huge variety to the development of Warcraft 3 mapping. Moreover, models from WoW look very good with normal and orm maps. And it would be nice to develop this direction as a separate section of models and a separate competition for modelers.

 

[SkaldCG]

Hi, today I felt like opening that old friend World Editor after 10 years
I would be interested in sth. like this maybe, I just started thinking about ideas for a new project anyway and some practice in reforged model editing would be great.
Need to get up to date with art tool/scripts/software being used right now...

From what I read there is this RMS? Never heard of it, will have a look into it.
I am comfortable using Maya, but this could be agood opportunity to learn some more blender, never got the hang of modeling inside that one unfortunately, it is so over-complicated to me compared to good old Maya^^

 

[Barorque]

[QUOTE="it's painted in substance painter ... (and expensive if you're not a student)."
"... unless you are willing to sell a kidney to pay for blender + substance painter."[/QUOTE]

Spoiler

Just theoretically of course...

 

[SkaldCG]

Yeah, I might reactivate my Substance license anyway, blender is free, for me it is not a problem, but I don't think substance painter is absolutely necessary, I don't really see why that would be the case. You can do any kinds of texture maps in Zbrush, 3DCoat, even blender these days, or just with 2D Painting tools, too.

(btw. whoever wants to do 3D/Digital Art and doesn't want to pay for Photoshop -> Affinity Photo is in a lot of VFX Studios now, pay once, get lifetime upgrades, and in 32-bit editing it is even better than PS.

Free comp can be done via Natron/blender/Fusion

3D/Texture painting can be done in blender...

fortunately there are so many open source programs these days..

 

[Archian]

I'm pleased to see that people like the idea of HD model contest

 

[Donut78]

Even though it could be tough to do something original, maybe this contest will inspire someone to accidentally find a better way to work with custom Reforged models.

 

[Ralle]

Exciting stuff!

Yet. About edits. If we allow edits. They should be based on the actual work and creativity. You can't just take a really good model, give it a hat and expect the source model to speak for itself.

 

[Taylor Mouse]

Maybe split this contest up into different parts ?

Like, best art for a new character, best sculpt, best baking, best retopology, best animation, and last the conversion to HD WC3 Reforged?

Or maybe start with a neutral new building ( I know my exporter can handle that )

 

[Archian]

Poll closed yesterday. Let's go! @Shar Dundred

 

[Shar Dundred]

Theme Discussion time!

 

[Riki]

HD Modeling Contest #1 - Hero's Journey

Archived.