Heroes of Newerth

[Deleted member 157129]

Dont people get tired of the same time of game? I mean these are played endlessly...

Its like constantly raiding the same place every day, all the time, just with different classes/races


Boring....

I'm guessing you play one RPG through, and then sell the game, buy a new RPG and play that through, and go on like that?

It's NEVER the same battle. You've got lots of heroes to choose from yourself, and the combinations of teams are vast. You can't just pick the same hero every game, and because you are so used to it, win every time. If you play with the exact same players twice, the heroes probably won't be the same as last time, because they change tactic based on their experience of you, or even if they are the same heroes, they will play differently. It's always something new, and after you've learned all the basics, there's a lot of experimenting with builds, perfecting your timing, taking advantage of the map - make people call you a lucker for every kill you take, for every time you survive, it feels really good when you KNOW that you would have made that move exactly like that, and that it would work out no matter what happens, or even if it almost went wrong because an unexpected event happened, you managed to outsmart your opponent and still get away with the kill.

You really have to play it for a good portion of games before you can rate it. I've played well over 10000 games of DotA, and I am not fully confident with the map or every hero yet (partly because they keep changing them slightly and adding new heroes).

Don't you get tired of waking up everyday and eating food? Boring...

Agreed.

lol Dread

Well anyway, I've played Heroes of Newerth and it seems like a more polished version of DotA with better graphics. The stats system is cool, but can be a pain in the ass too. The BETA has some annoying glitches, such as your hero randomly deciding to auto-attack creeps at the most random, worst times ever, when you're trying to run back to your own base to heal because you have 10 health left.

Playing with random people is the same as in DotA. 90% of them are dumb, assholes, or foreign speakers who can hardly spell noob correctly. It's a bunch of complaining from the start of the game and retarded name-calling like "noob!" and "call miss fkcing idot!!" so playing public games without friends is terrible unless you'd rather not communicate with the players at all. It's surprising for me that DotA's community is the same as HoN's, since the community of Savage 2 seems rather civilized... or at least much more civilized that the DotA community.

Playing with friends is great though. So far I've only played with Shamanyouranus and Anarchianbedlam. Fun stuff with them. Otherwise you're alone going against guys who say they suck even though they destroy you from the start of the game.

It's been a while now since I played the beta - they use some sort of UDP access so I cannot connect to the games from where I live - but I've never experienced any trouble with auto-attacking. Though I never stand still either.

As for calling miss - I am actually supporting those who complain about this, because sometimes you've got so much to keep track of you can't also know which heroes are not in their line at all times, and when you are used to playing with people that do report missing heroes (ie bottom lane, Yurnero on lane, Furion woods - vs Shendelzare and Lina and situation is Shendelzare leaves lane, if Yurnero doesn't call miss, Furion will die most likely, because she will surprise him. If Yurnero calls miss, Furion back off and is aware Shendelzare might show up). It's just essential as a team to let each other know what's going on.

I play a lot of public games, and I never have any trouble with the community, so I honestly can't see why everyone is complaining so much about it. What pisses me off is all the leaving.

I'd probably be one of those who promise I'm not so good, and make your lane miserable. Either that, or I make a fool of myself early on, so you loosen up and take it easy, only to go head on a little later when I've learned your style.

 

[punwisp]

No i dont buy a game, play it and sell it. Including since Dota isnt even a RPG -.-

I dislike Dota, not only does it seem boring to me, the community is horrible, so many imature players, and many times people would cuss each other out and if one lossed the hero, everyone leaves.

Not only that if you dont have the right map, they boot you most of the time

 

[Deleted member 157129]

No i dont buy a game, play it and sell it. Including since Dota isnt even a RPG -.-

I dislike Dota, not only does it seem boring to me, the community is horrible, so many imature players, and many times people would cuss each other out and if one lossed the hero, everyone leaves.

Not only that if you dont have the right map, they boot you most of the time

I wasn't referring to DotA, but basically, the only games that are not repetitive at all are RPGs, whether it's a shooter or fantasy.. all driving games are just driving (boring isn't it?), multiplayer shooters (same thing over and over again), puzzles, whatever.. I honestly can't think of anything that isn't repetitive other than RPGs. Which is why I guessed you only play RPG, and you only play that RPG through once.

It seems boring to anyone who don't know it. Everything seems so all-powerful because, frankly, you don't know what they can do, and you don't know what you can do. You have to learn - school is also boring for the most part. The community is fine, it's just kids on BNet that play all games there is - this isn't the damn DotA community, in ALL games on BNet there are people who flame, whine and leave.

Just like with any other map, if you don't have it, they expect you don't know the game, and thus they don't want to wait for you to download the map. It's standard on BNet. You download the latest map from getdota.com, and all your trouble is gone. Besides, most of the open DotA leagues (PDC, DotAStats, DIV) allow you to download the map - they also register stats, so you can keep track of your progress. Of course, people are a lot more serious about the game once the stats are tracked, so you ought to start somewhere easy, like with an AI map - playdota.com/ai, and move on later when you know how the game flow is.

 

[Teldrassil]

If I cared or enjoyed DotA, I would definitely play HoN, and every other DotA player should too. Every single player of DotA should leave to HoN because it was specifically made to be superior, to incorporate many of things wc3 DotA can't.

A couple of my friends play League of Legends so they convinced me to suffer my way through AoS after AoS, even though I am biased and dislike AoS horribly I must admit it is a decently made game. Any annoyances I have with LoL is because it is an AoS (I just really hate how they're played) and not because of the game itself. I suspect HoN would be much the same. It is pretty much a remastered DotA though and out of every AoS I've played I hated DotA the most due to the items, player base, heroes, and balance. (I do not care what you say DotA is not balanced, and never will be, mostly because it's an AoS)

Anyways, long story short and biased aside, it looks like they're putting a lot of effort into HoN and it's at least worth a try if you enjoy any AoS. For that matter check out LoL too, who says you have to choose just one?

Edit: also to Shiik, a lot of people dislike DotA specifically because of the player base. Specifically because they tend to take it so seriously, because people go out of their way to make a "getdota.com" and create open dota leagues. There IS a DotA community, and they tend to be elitists. Any new player to war3 knows that "getting started" with DotA is nearly impossible, if you aren't kicked for dling the map, you're banned for life for dying once, instantly kicked for not having stats on their "stat bot" or just flamed the whole game for being a "noob" You shouldn't have to play with comps only for hours on end just to be able to play online. It's ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

If I cared or enjoyed DotA, I would definitely play HoN, and every other DotA player should too. Every single player of DotA should leave to HoN because it was specifically made to be superior, to incorporate many of things wc3 DotA can't.

A couple of my friends play League of Legends so they convinced me to suffer my way through AoS after AoS, even though I am biased and dislike AoS horribly I must admit it is a decently made game. Any annoyances I have with LoL is because it is an AoS (I just really hate how they're played) and not because of the game itself. I suspect HoN would be much the same. It is pretty much a remastered DotA though and out of every AoS I've played I hated DotA the most due to the items, player base, heroes, and balance. (I do not care what you say DotA is not balanced, and never will be, mostly because it's an AoS)

Anyways, long story short and biased aside, it looks like they're putting a lot of effort into HoN and it's at least worth a try if you enjoy any AoS. For that matter check out LoL too, who says you have to choose just one?

Edit: also to Shiik, a lot of people dislike DotA specifically because of the player base. Specifically because they tend to take it so seriously, because people go out of their way to make a "getdota.com" and create open dota leagues. There IS a DotA community, and they tend to be elitists. Any new player to war3 knows that "getting started" with DotA is nearly impossible, if you aren't kicked for dling the map, you're banned for life for dying once, instantly kicked for not having stats on their "stat bot" or just flamed the whole game for being a "noob" You shouldn't have to play with comps only for hours on end just to be able to play online. It's ridiculous.

Everyone starts somewhere, it's not like I just downloaded DotA and was instantly a "pro" .. I honestly can't see how the DotA community is any worse than the other communities. Have you tried to play melee games online? Now that's hell compared to DotA.

Didn't quite understand what you were trying to point out in the bold sentence. That you have to download DotA from getdota.com is just to reduce the waiting time to start new games, besides, it takes much less time to download it from there, and if you have downloaded it there, you prove that you cared enough about the map to actually download it to play.. it's sort of a quality insurance to the players of the game.

This "banned for life" story you're trying to present here is completely ignorant, it just shows how little you've tried. You don't get banned from DotA.. it's nothing serious about those stupid ban lists. Sure, one or two guys banned you in a game for leaving (there's hardly any other reason), but they are probably not in the next game you join, and it's unlikely the host would bother to kick you because a guy says you left a game earlier. I am banned on the 'official ban list' for 'being too pro for public game' .. now how silly is that? I'll tell you something about your precious impression; what you view as the DotA community is all the players that are like you, they don't know the game, but after a few games they feel so arrogant they have to flame everyone that are better or worse than them. It's not the DotA community, it's the global noob community.

As for the 'stats bots' that kick you, it's probably because you don't quality for the game; for instance, DIV league (which is one of the public leagues, hosted with stats tracking bots on BNet), has at least three levels of leagues- you have the SAFE-LOW which is open to ALL players (might be a leave percentage barrier), after that you've got SAFE-HIGH which obviously requires you to have played SAFE-LOW enough times to accumulate a certain amount of points. Lastly, you have the LEAGUE, and I think that goes without further explanation.

So, if you want to learn DotA, the hard path is to go by standard public games (personal hosts), and slightly easier would be DIV SAFE-LOW for example. If you want the easy way, you go play against AI in Single Player (you can download AI Maps from playdota.com) and try out the heroes, as well as watch some game-play videos to see how the experienced players play. Now, for the ambitions-killer; yes, it takes time to practise, just like with every damn other skill. You don't become a football professional over the night either.




As for the first bit; yeah, HoN and LoL are the same game types like DotA (and HoN is very similar, considering it includes a lot of the heroes and items from the original DotA), but that doesn't mean it's better (yet). I still find DotA the better of all MOGA games. Besides, I can't play Demigod, HoN or LoL because of their stupid networking solutions.

 

[Teldrassil]

I'll try to explain that bold sentence a little better for you...

The fact that you have to play single player against AI to get good enough to play a public game of a custom map mod for warcraft 3 is a prime example of the DotA community. The fact you even suggest doing so reinforces it.

In a nutshell the DotA community tends to be Elitists, to the point where it pushes new players away from the game.

The fact there are DotA leagues enforces this general opinion of the DotA community. A series of games specifically designed so you can see how much better or worse you are than the other players.

If I want an even slightly enjoyable match to just play for fun I have to get 9 of my friends together, because playing publicly means dealing with the constant flaming, banning, kicking and other general annoyances that I previously mentioned. Annoyances which in fact, do exist and many of the casual warcraft players will confirm this.

"I'll tell you something about your precious impression; what you view as the DotA community is all the players that are like you, they don't know the game, but after a few games they feel so arrogant they have to flame everyone that are better or worse than them. It's not the DotA community, it's the global noob community."

You flame me by calling me a flamer, just thought you should know.

There is a DotA community, it has been widely recognized, it exists, it carries on into games such as HoN or LoL. The big difference is these games are specifically designed to cater to that community as well as give new players an equal opportunity to experience it. HoN and LoL are not restricted by the limitations of DotA, eventually, they will outgrow DotA, or at least war3's version of DotA.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

I'll try to explain that bold sentence a little better for you...

The fact that you have to play single player against AI to get good enough to play a public game of a custom map mod for warcraft 3 is a prime example of the DotA community. The fact you even suggest doing so reinforces it.

Just like you probably played some single player melee before you tried playing it online? There exist no such game where you know how to play before you've played it.

In a nutshell the DotA community tends to be Elitists, to the point where it pushes new players away from the game.

Push you away from our game, not from DotA. If you enjoy playing a game versus equally skilled players, it's outright annoying to play with a less skilled player on your team or the other.

The fact there are DotA leagues enforces this general opinion of the DotA community. A series of games specifically designed so you can see how much better or worse you are than the other players.

Yes, DotA is a competitive game, that's what makes it enjoyable for competitive players. Compare it with football; kids play football for fun (and because their parents want them to exercise), there's little to no skill involved; grown-ups play football on a competitive level, skill and teamwork is everything. DotA can be played on both levels, the problem occurs when 'the kids' try to play with 'the grown-ups' ..

If I want an even slightly enjoyable match to just play for fun I have to get 9 of my friends together, because playing publicly means dealing with the constant flaming, banning, kicking and other general annoyances that I previously mentioned. Annoyances which in fact, do exist and many of the casual warcraft players will confirm this.

You don't play competitive games for fun unless you're playing with people on your own level. Play with someone your own size, and I guarantee you'll have a good time. I have a good time every DotA game I play (given there are no lesser-skilled players involved, which is an annoyance to me).

"I'll tell you something about your precious impression; what you view as the DotA community is all the players that are like you, they don't know the game, but after a few games they feel so arrogant they have to flame everyone that are better or worse than them. It's not the DotA community, it's the global noob community."

You flame me by calling me a flamer, just thought you should know.

If you noticed how I wrote that, you'd realize I wasn't calling you a flamer. Especially considering I don't view the DotA community as flamers. I'm just saying you (probably) know nothing about the DotA community, because you've never met us. We don't play on BNet.

There is a DotA community, it has been widely recognized, it exists, it carries on into games such as HoN or LoL. The big difference is these games are specifically designed to cater to that community as well as give new players an equal opportunity to experience it. HoN and LoL are not restricted by the limitations of DotA, eventually, they will outgrow DotA, or at least war3's version of DotA.

Yes it does, I've never neglected the existence of a DotA community, I'm just saying you're not referring to the DotA community. HoN and LoL doesn't grant any better opportunity for new players. People like you (that don't know the game) still join the 'pros only' games and get flamed.. by all means, NO ONE would like to join 'noobs only' games, simply because no one is going to admit to be a new player. That's why things that this never work out - and this is why DotA is still more successful than HoN and LoL - because it already has established communities where you simply don't have the problem with arrogant noobs playing in the wrong league.

 

[darkro90]

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCOMBO BREAKER!

btw i have some invite wanna get some? xD

 

[Teldrassil]

Push you away from our game, not from DotA. If you enjoy playing a game versus equally skilled players, it's outright annoying to play with a less skilled player on your team or the other.

When people are unable to play any DotA game due to players with the same mentality as you, you're pushing new players away from the game.

Yes, DotA is a competitive game, that's what makes it enjoyable for competitive players. Compare it with football; kids play football for fun (and because their parents want them to exercise), there's little to no skill involved; grown-ups play football on a competitive level, skill and teamwork is everything. DotA can be played on both levels, the problem occurs when 'the kids' try to play with 'the grown-ups' ..

These 'grown-ups' you speak of are more like school-yard bullies, denying potential players because they don't fit in.

You don't play competitive games for fun unless you're playing with people on your own level. Play with someone your own size, and I guarantee you'll have a good time. I have a good time every DotA game I play (given there are no lesser-skilled players involved, which is an annoyance to me).

Games are called games for a reason, they're for fun. The reason why the general public such as me does not enjoy this community so much is because of that mentality, that DotA is for something more than fun, as if winning every single game is a necessity. I'm sure the "lesser-skilled" players find you equally annoying.

If you noticed how I wrote that, you'd realize I wasn't calling you a flamer. Especially considering I don't view the DotA community as flamers. I'm just saying you (probably) know nothing about the DotA community, because you've never met us. We don't play on BNet.

If you'll read what you said again, you will realize that you did in fact call me a flamer. Perhaps it was not how it was meant, but it was how it was written.

"all the players that are like you, they don't know the game, but after a few games they feel so arrogant they have to flame everyone that are better or worse than them."

Yes it does, I've never neglected the existence of a DotA community, I'm just saying you're not referring to the DotA community. HoN and LoL doesn't grant any better opportunity for new players. People like you (that don't know the game) still join the 'pros only' games and get flamed.. by all means, NO ONE would like to join 'noobs only' games, simply because no one is going to admit to be a new player. That's why things that this never work out - and this is why DotA is still more successful than HoN and LoL - because it already has established communities where you simply don't have the problem with arrogant noobs playing in the wrong league.

90% of the games on Battle.Net do not have a "pros only" tag, hosts just assume that you know it is moment you read the word "DotA". DotA's community is NOT new user friendly, partly because players of the game tend to take it so seriously, if you care so much about you rank up to the other players, join HoL or LoL that specifically support it. I'm just saying that if you are a part of the community that enjoys these sort of games, perhaps you should try the ones being made specifically for you instead of clogging up the game selection list.

HoN and LoL doesn't grant any better opportunity for new players. People like you (that don't know the game) still join the 'pros only' games and get flamed..

Both of these games feature a matchmaking system to limit the chances of that, both of them feature ranked and unranked matches.

@ the bolded text. You assume much.

But I digress, this has gone on too long already, speak your peace and let us be done with this trivial conflict over the definition of the "DotA Community".

 

[Deleted member 157129]

When people are unable to play any DotA game due to players with the same mentality as you, you're pushing new players away from the game.

Seriously, are you completely ignoring what I'm trying to say? New players play with new players, experienced players play with experienced players. That's it. When I started with DotA, I played with new players. I never had ANY trouble learning the game over a series of months, and I was hardly flamed at all.

These 'grown-ups' you speak of are more like school-yard bullies, denying potential players because they don't fit in.

Yeah, it would be awesome if Arsenal hired a little kid to play for them, aye?

Games are called games for a reason, they're for fun. The reason why the general public such as me does not enjoy this community so much is because of that mentality, that DotA is for something more than fun, as if winning every single game is a necessity. I'm sure the "lesser-skilled" players find you equally annoying.

Yeah, I'm sure those attending the Olympic Games are there just for fun as well. No, I don't have to win every game, but if I lose, I'd rather it be my fault, or the team's fault, not because one (or more) player(s) don't know how to play. If Liverpool hired a new player and in his first match, he did all he could to grab that ball with his hands so he could run ahead and touch-down in the opposite goal, I am quite sure everyone else would be annoyed (apart from those that enjoy stupidity).

If you'll read what you said again, you will realize that you did in fact call me a flamer. Perhaps it was not how it was meant, but it was how it was written.

"all the players that are like you, they don't know the game, but after a few games they feel so arrogant they have to flame everyone that are better or worse than them."

Read again.

90% of the games on Battle.Net do not have a "pros only" tag, hosts just assume that you know it is moment you read the word "DotA". DotA's community is NOT new user friendly, partly because players of the game tend to take it so seriously, if you care so much about you rank up to the other players, join HoL or LoL that specifically support it. I'm just saying that if you are a part of the community that enjoys these sort of games, perhaps you should try the ones being made specifically for you instead of clogging up the game selection list.

Games on BNet are the "Noobs Only" games, if you compare to HoN. There are no good players (only potentially good) on those public games. Why would you mark the game "Pro Only" when there are no "Pro" players on BNet at all? Other than to get a lot of lower-skilled players feeling like they are better than they are.

Furthermore, I think I already clarified, that the DotA community does not play on BNet, at all. We do not watch the game selection list to find a suitable game, we join a game with players our skill, and it's not hosted nor planned anywhere near BNet. The teams are determined before we join a game, and we agree on that, and then we play. The stats are tracked (wins, leaves, losses, in-game stats average, etc) and points are accumulated (or dissipated).

So to put it firmly, I am doing exactly what you suggested in the last bit. HoN is not yet suitable for a competitive game base, neither is LoL. DotA is perfectly suitable, with a well-established community, a vast amount of good inhouse leagues, famous teams and an incredible amount of competitive events arranged around the globe.

Both of these games feature a matchmaking system to limit the chances of that, both of them feature ranked and unranked matches.

It doesn't work. It's still an open league.

@ the bolded text. You assume much.

When you express your hate for AoS, and specifically DotA, then I am left to assume you don't play DotA on a serious level, thus you don't know the game. In order to know the game, you have to play the game, and you have to play it with the best.

But I digress, this has gone on too long already, speak your peace and let us be done with this trivial conflict over the definition of the "DotA Community".

It's not like you're the only one with an ignorant impression of what the DotA community is, so I'd rather go on and see some more inputs.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

League of Legends: Fast paced, too much teamwork involved, very few leavers (At least this is for people with ELO > 1800). Feels like it's still in beta (when technically it isn't).

HoN: Slower paced, farmfest, although battles are over very quickly (it seems). More skill potential but less teamwork. Feels like a polished game.

DotA: As much as you may hate the game, it really is impressive the amount of content it has and how well balanced it is for having all that content. (WTF why hasn't PotM been nerfed for..... 100000 versions?) I like the pacing of battles in DotA the best. In league of legends, if you are caught out of position, you lose, no hope, because there are so many stuns, slows, disables, it's impossible to escape (well actually about 1/4th of champions have blink).

So ya, there's my pros cons list.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

After the few games of LoL that I played, I had the impression it's not very fast paced at all, rather easy going - THOUGH, the matches are shorter, you don't farm for as much time.

HoN is a bit slower than DotA (as far as I recall, it might've changed anyway), actually it's very much alike.. the major difference lies in the possibility to increase the resolution so that you get a better view of what's going on.

PotM really isn't that strong without a good team to back her up.. she's a really great teamhero, with the invisibility, leap and arrow. The Starfall enables her to take care of herself, and also happens to be AoE. However, if you play her in a public game, you stand no chance, your ultimate is nearly useless because your team does not work together and utilize it, the arrows are nearly only useful for yourself as an assassin (when you really are not a carry), same goes for leap and starfall.

As for stuns and disables, that depends on the team set-up, again.. you can face a team, in a DotA match, that has incredibly many disables.. heck, just throwing in Lion (gank/support) and Rhasta (support/push) on one team and you already got 4 disables. Then add up with Sven (carry), Tidehunter (tank) and perhaps Vengeful Spirit (gank/support) who all have stuns as well. (I just came up with this team on the go, to find stunners.. so there's really no need to seek my flaws.)

Oh, and one of the problems with LoL, is that you're zoomed so far in (last time I played you could not zoom out), you don't know what's going on in front or behind you without moving the camera all the time.

 

[shaco]

I play LoL because there is no deny and I like the idea of adding more maps. Too bad they only have 2 maps and the 2nd map is still in beta not in the match making system while the first is nearly the same as dota's map. I miss Darkness and Light, right from the get go it had 3 maps and the most played map wasn't the map that was the dota rippoff, they added even more maps later on. The boss fights were amazing and one of the later maps had strong spawns. The company behind it folded though.

I think of LoL as being still in beta since there is no in game menu for guilds and there are only 2 maps.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

They still didn't add deny to LoL? That's ridiculous, it's not hard to implement and it's pretty much essential to allow for proper lane control. If you can't deny you can't really prevent your lane opponent from getting strong (he won't prevent you either) other than by killing him directly (or harassing him so much he retreats). Also, last time I played LoL (it was in beta, I didn't realize they had released it yet) the only regularly played map (out of three) was a map that didn't look much like DotA at all, with two lanes and vast differences. Guessing they've taken a sharp turn in development over the course of this autumn.

HoN will probably also add more maps, so for your reasoning, you play LoL rather than HoN just because it's easier (in the manner you won't have so much trouble farming) when there's no deny. I don't mind that, but I'm guessing you'll opt for more of a challenge later and go back to DotA or take on HoN.

 

[PurplePoot]

Denying is stupid, pointless micro for the sake of micro. DotA didn't hurt without it and it didn't add any new element to the game. They didn't not implement it because it's hard to implement (it's incredibly easy to)--they did so because it's stupid.

 

[Just_Spectating]

Denying is stupid, pointless micro for the sake of micro. DotA didn't hurt without it and it didn't add any new element to the game. They didn't not implement it because it's hard to implement (it's incredibly easy to)--they did so because it's stupid.

it's not pointless at all.

the tiny amount of exp difference that you get when you deny can easily stack up and allow a BIG advantage throughout the start of the game. it usually will end up with the deny-er's chance to kill the player easier, thus leading to big differences in hero level, eventually making the game easier to win.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Denying is stupid, pointless micro for the sake of micro. DotA didn't hurt without it and it didn't add any new element to the game. They didn't not implement it because it's hard to implement (it's incredibly easy to)--they did so because it's stupid.

Denying allows for much better lane control. If you effectively deny your creeps and only last hit enemy creeps, you force the battle closer to your own tower, making a successful gang on your enemy a lot easier as well as preventing yourself from being ganged. In addition, you prevent your enemy from making money (each creep is worth 35 gold on average, given you last hit it) as well as slowing down his/her XP gain.

Of course it's an important feature. If you're going without denying, you might as well remove the rewards for killing a creep. Thereby dishing out an equal income for all players, that is time based (with bonuses for taking down heroes - can you deny heroes in LoL? - and towers though). The more of these features you ignore, the less control a player has over the game.

 

[PurplePoot]

it's not pointless at all.

the tiny amount of exp difference that you get when you deny can easily stack up and allow a BIG advantage throughout the start of the game. it usually will end up with the deny-er's chance to kill the player easier, thus leading to big differences in hero level, eventually making the game easier to win.

Pointless as in if it was removed from both sides then there would be no difference in the game's outcome or playstyle really. It would just be back to sniping enemy creeps.

Denying allows for much better lane control. If you effectively deny your creeps and only last hit enemy creeps, you force the battle closer to your own tower, making a successful gang on your enemy a lot easier as well as preventing yourself from being ganged. In addition, you prevent your enemy from making money (each creep is worth 35 gold on average, given you last hit it) as well as slowing down his/her XP gain.

Of course it's an important feature. If you're going without denying, you might as well remove the rewards for killing a creep. Thereby dishing out an equal income for all players, that is time based (with bonuses for taking down heroes - can you deny heroes in LoL? - and towers though). The more of these features you ignore, the less control a player has over the game.

What? At a high skill level both players will be denying at essentially their maximum capacity and thus it will be neutralized. At a low skill level it just makes yet another way for higher skilled players to crush lower skilled players.

You love it because you're used to it. If your AoS of choice was not one that included denying I think you'd find it stupid because it wasn't in your ideal set of AoS features. I find it stupid because it adds nothing with a point to the gameplay; it's sort of like saying MBS in Starcraft 2 is stupid because players should have to cope with the increased macro that Starcraft players had to cope with to fight the interface.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Pointless as in if it was removed from both sides then there would be no difference in the game's outcome or playstyle really. It would just be back to sniping enemy creeps.

What? At a high skill level both players will be denying at essentially their maximum capacity and thus it will be neutralized. At a low skill level it just makes yet another way for higher skilled players to crush lower skilled players.

You love it because you're used to it. If your AoS of choice was not one that included denying I think you'd find it stupid because it wasn't in your ideal set of AoS features. I find it stupid because it adds nothing with a point to the gameplay; it's sort of like saying MBS in Starcraft 2 is stupid because players should have to cope with the increased macro that Starcraft players had to cope with to fight the interface.

At high skill level there are still differences, mainly because players focus on different skills, and what heroes are in the lane makes a difference as well. It is only natural that a Sniper (having the fastest missiles and a very short attack animation) will be the most efficient at last hit/deny. You don't go for a tactic that evolves around denying when you face Sniper, you aim to harass him, so that he can't stay and make your game hard. Besides, at high skill level, even if both deny and last hit as good, the game has already been changed. It's not like it would be the same without denying; because of the denying, the levels are generally lower for a longer time, and the carries have little farm, thereby less items than they should, making a huge benefit to the team with stronger early-game heroes.

DotA wasn't my first AoS, I loved denying as soon as it arrived. More micro tasks to do while otherwise not doing much in the lane, a fun little competition between you and the enemy without necessarily attacking each other directly. I mean, as a carry you will spend around 15 minutes moving back and forth, occasionally killing the enemy or dying. If you got something to do other than just being there and watching out for your enemy, that time doesn't get boring at all (in fact, I'm often surprised at how much time I've spent creeping).

About the lower skilled players being crushed; of course, as if there was anything a lower skilled player wouldn't get beaten at by a higher skilled player. The denying is just another skill to practise so you don't get bored.

 

[PurplePoot]

The obvious solution if you like the results is to just lower experience gain and gold bounty.

Also, I (and many people I know) would classify denying under "boring and tedious" rather than "interesting and engaging". I actually happen to know an ex-pro DotA player (at university), so I'll ask his thoughts on it when I get back and have him explain why it's good to me if he thinks it is.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

I'm not saying I like the results of perfect denying from both sides, I'm saying I like the diversity of games and the additional tactics that are made because of the possibility to deny and last hit. I would feel powerless without any control over how my farm turns out. Besides, how can actively denying be more boring than standing still?

 

[PurplePoot]

I'm not saying I like the results of perfect denying from both sides, I'm saying I like the diversity of games and the additional tactics that are made because of the possibility to deny and last hit. I would feel powerless without any control over how my farm turns out. Besides, how can actively denying be more boring than standing still?

Because it's frustrating and if you're any good at it it's essentially mechanical.

As I said earlier, this is like arguing that the lack of MBS adds diversity and additional tactics to Starcraft. Sure it's neat to learn how to exploit it for a few seconds, but once you do it's just annoying. I can 1t2t3g4g5v6v7v8v just fine when I need to, but why shouldn't I be able to go 1t2g3v, or better yet, 1ttggvvvv?

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Because it's frustrating and if you're any good at it it's essentially mechanical.

As I said earlier, this is like arguing that the lack of MBS adds diversity and additional tactics to Starcraft. Sure it's neat to learn how to exploit it for a few seconds, but once you do it's just annoying. I can 1t2t3g4g5v6v7v8v just fine when I need to, but why shouldn't I be able to go 1t2g3v, or better yet, 1ttggvvvv?

I don't know what the hell MBS is or 1t2t3g4g5v6v7v8v..

It's not frustrating to deny.. I can't see how that's even possible. It's definitely not mechanical, unless guessing your opponents move is mechanical. In which case DotA is mechanical altogether.

 

[PurplePoot]

I don't know what the hell MBS is or 1t2t3g4g5v6v7v8v..

It's not frustrating to deny.. I can't see how that's even possible. It's definitely not mechanical, unless guessing your opponents move is mechanical. In which case DotA is mechanical altogether.

MBS is multiple building selection.

1t2t3g4g5v6v7v8v means I have hotkeyed factories as Terran on control groups 1 through 8 and am telling the first two to build tanks, the second two to build goliaths, and the last four to build vultures.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

In that case I'd definitely prefer 1t2t3g4g5v6v7v8v rather than any of the other two choices. Anything else would force the game to assume what I want rather than taking my command.

 

[PurplePoot]

In that case I'd definitely prefer 1t2t3g4g5v6v7v8v rather than any of the other two choices. Anything else would force the game to assume what I want rather than taking my command.

Not at all. Besides, you don't seem to understand that this is all happening in a fraction of a second; you aren't analyzing which factory is where and thus which should produce which unit. You just want two tanks, two goliaths, and four vultures to come from eight given factories.

Also, the second choice is just as unambiguous as the first anyways.

 

[Dougletron]

LoL is trash. HoN is coming out really nice i must say. I love it so much more than dota just because of the features: ingame voice chat, rejoin if you d/c, stat tracking, and so much more. It's not a complete rip of dota either, they have a lot of custom heroes as well which quite a few have better concepts and themes then dota heroes. Theres so much that can be done with an AoS map with its own platform--dota is limited to to the chains of wc3 and the world editor.

 

[PurplePoot]

You and the DotA development team severly underestimate the Warcraft III World Editor though.

 

[Dougletron]

How is that relevant? A lot can be done with the WE but it does have its limits and it is becoming outdated.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Not at all. Besides, you don't seem to understand that this is all happening in a fraction of a second; you aren't analyzing which factory is where and thus which should produce which unit. You just want two tanks, two goliaths, and four vultures to come from eight given factories.

Also, the second choice is just as unambiguous as the first anyways.

1t2g3v doesn't tell the game to make two tanks, two goliaths and four vultures, it tells the first factory to create a tank, second to make a goliath and third to make a vulture while the 5 last are idle (or already working).

1ttggvvvv tells the first factory to make two tanks, two goliaths and four vultures, while the other 7 factories are idle (or already working).

Hot-key paths has to be logical. What if you aim was to order four tanks from the first factory, but the game assume you wanted four tanks and create one tank in each of the first four factories. Of course, the latter is a better solution if the other three factories are idle, and you're not planning to make something else there, but that's not the point at all.

Anyway, sorry for striding completely off topic. Denying has nothing to do with hot-keys though. It's a process that is a LOT more intricate, and comparing hot-keys with denying is silly. You have to guess when you opponent will try and last hit (based on his damage, attack animation and missile speed) so that your hit will take down the creep just before he can; it's practically impossible if the enemy has higher damage output. You also have to make sure that by denying that creep, you're not wasting a chance to get a last hit (which is more important in the long run); consider cooldown, creep's damage (if you kill an allied creep, the damage being dealt to an enemy creep could be reduced) and how the enemy now will react. Core features of DotA are typically considered of lesser importance by not so serious players. When I claim denying is an important feature, it's because it is in my experience. DotA would be a lot harder without being able to deny (as opposed to easier, as it seems most of you think).

 

[PurplePoot]

1t2g3v doesn't tell the game to make two tanks, two goliaths and four vultures, it tells the first factory to create a tank, second to make a goliath and third to make a vulture while the 5 last are idle (or already working).

1ttggvvvv tells the first factory to make two tanks, two goliaths and four vultures, while the other 7 factories are idle (or already working).

What in the hell? I'm talking about different hotkey schemes. In the 1t2g3v example 1 is 2 factories with machine shops, 2 is 2 factories (not necessarily with machine shops), and 3 is 4 factories (not necessarily with machine shops). In the 1ttggvvvv example, 1 is 8 factories with at least 2 machine shops present. This should be incredibly obvious... Why the hell would I be talking about the advantages of MBS and then not using it? Think please.

Hot-key paths has to be logical. What if you aim was to order four tanks from the first factory, but the game assume you wanted four tanks and create one tank in each of the first four factories. Of course, the latter is a better solution if the other three factories are idle, and you're not planning to make something else there, but that's not the point at all.

Look at how Warcraft handles upgrades. If I select three barracks and click for a footman, it will queue a footman on each. Then I select one and click for a rifleman, and now the first will have a footman and a rifleman and the other two will only have footmen. Now I select all of them and click defend and war horse training; notice how the upgrades will always go on the two buildings with shorter queues (the ones not training the rifleman). Presumably a unique click system would behave the same way in Starcraft 2.

Anyway, sorry for striding completely off topic. Denying has nothing to do with hot-keys though.

Not at all; denying is so necessary in pro games that it is akin to an interface component you need to fight in terms of importance.

It's a process that is a LOT more intricate, and comparing hot-keys with denying is silly. You have to guess when you opponent will try and last hit (based on his damage, attack animation and missile speed) so that your hit will take down the creep just before he can;

This can be memorized through practice.

it's practically impossible if the enemy has higher damage output.

Sometimes, yes. Usually, no. After all, the unit will often be taken down more than the minimum amount required for your enemy to kill them in one hit.

You also have to make sure that by denying that creep, you're not wasting a chance to get a last hit (which is more important in the long run); consider cooldown, creep's damage (if you kill an allied creep, the damage being dealt to an enemy creep could be reduced) and how the enemy now will react.

Cooldowns are generally rather short (except possibly in the very early game) and the other factors are more important in theory than in practice (aside from memorized patterns you won't have enough time to handle that much evaluation).

Core features of DotA are typically considered of lesser importance by not so serious players. When I claim denying is an important feature, it's because it is in my experience. DotA would be a lot harder without being able to deny (as opposed to easier, as it seems most of you think).

And useless features are often considered core by serious players because they find them comfortable, normal, and standard. Just because you play more DotA than I do (in fact, I can't stand it) doesn't make you automatically better at AoS game design.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

What in the hell? I'm talking about different hotkey schemes. In the 1t2g3v example 1 is 2 factories with machine shops, 2 is 2 factories (not necessarily with machine shops), and 3 is 4 factories (not necessarily with machine shops). In the 1ttggvvvv example, 1 is 8 factories with at least 2 machine shops present. This should be incredibly obvious... Why the hell would I be talking about the advantages of MBS and then not using it? Think please.

I think you'd realize I didn't know anything about MBS when I asked what it was. "Multiple Building Selection", I assumed that meant hotkeys for each building, ie 1 is a barrack, 2 is a factory, etc.

Look at how Warcraft handles upgrades. If I select three barracks and click for a footman, it will queue a footman on each. Then I select one and click for a rifleman, and now the first will have a footman and a rifleman and the other two will only have footmen. Now I select all of them and click defend and war horse training; notice how the upgrades will always go on the two buildings with shorter queues (the ones not training the rifleman). Presumably a unique click system would behave the same way in Starcraft 2.

Sure, I didn't know anything about it, so making such assumptions would have been impossible for me. I don't usually play melee, and whenever I do; I do not utilize hotkeys beyond what I talked about in my previous paragraph (or for referring to a group of units as 1, 2, 3 etc).

Not at all; denying is so necessary in pro games that it is akin to an interface component you need to fight in terms of importance.

It's a skill, not an interface component. You don't click 1d and automatically deny one creep.

This can be memorized through practice.

Yeah right, I can memorize all your forum replies before you make them, too. You can't memorize something that is going to happen, you only build up experience to make a better guess. You never know exactly what your opponent will do at any time, unless you're a psychic.

Sometimes, yes. Usually, no. After all, the unit will often be taken down more than the minimum amount required for your enemy to kill them in one hit.

Usually, yes. Sometimes, no. The unit is denied/last hit at the point where either of the heroes in lane have enough minimum damage to kill it. You make your attack so it will land exactly after the creep has made sure the HP of the target is below your minimum. You don't start your attack when you know you'll kill it, that's too late. There are tricks to put the enemy's timing off, like taunting/aggro.

Cooldowns are generally rather short (except possibly in the very early game) and the other factors are more important in theory than in practice (aside from memorized patterns you won't have enough time to handle that much evaluation).

You don't go to a lane and start denying after you've made enough items for a decent cooldown. It's merely in the early phase you deny and last hit. The cooldowns are long enough, in combination with length of attack animation (possibly missile speed and distance as well), for you to require careful planning if you're going to get all the creeps.

And useless features are often considered core by serious players because they find them comfortable, normal, and standard. Just because you play more DotA than I do (in fact, I can't stand it) doesn't make you automatically better at AoS game design.

Everything that affects game-play and gives players more control over the situation is useful. Are spells useless too? Maybe DotA should be like this; you roll for a number between 0 and 100, and the team with the highest sum wins the game.

 

[PurplePoot]

I think you'd realize I didn't know anything about MBS when I asked what it was. "Multiple Building Selection", I assumed that meant hotkeys for each building, ie 1 is a barrack, 2 is a factory, etc.

In Starcraft you can only select one building at a time as opposed to twelve units. That was the entire point.

It's a skill, not an interface component. You don't click 1d and automatically deny one creep.

So is, say, deciding what to have your workers do and telling them to do it at the start of a melee game. Doesn't mean it isn't routine and subconscious.

Yeah right, I can memorize all your forum replies before you make them, too. You can't memorize something that is going to happen, you only build up experience to make a better guess. You never know exactly what your opponent will do at any time, unless you're a psychic.

Many things that seem to need thought are simply applying pattern matching skills to problems you've seen before.

You don't go to a lane and start denying after you've made enough items for a decent cooldown. It's merely in the early phase you deny and last hit. The cooldowns are long enough, in combination with length of attack animation (possibly missile speed and distance as well), for you to require careful planning if you're going to get all the creeps.

You don't have time for careful planning in a twitch game. Most of the twitch "strategy" is worked out beforehand.

Everything that affects game-play and gives players more control over the situation is useful. Are spells useless too? Maybe DotA should be like this; you roll for a number between 0 and 100, and the team with the highest sum wins the game.

Resorting to fallacies? I guess you basically just surrendered.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

You're arguing that denying is useless because it's routine. Everything in DotA is basically routine- and everything in every game, at some point, becomes routine-, which ultimately sums up to DotA being routine, and therefore useless. Of course, I could agree gaming in general is useless, but it's still entertaining. Besides- can routine be challenging?
The point, though, is that being a routine doesn't warrant removal.

Of course there's time for careful planning. You just don't plan too far ahead at a time, and your plan doesn't always succeed. It doesn't mean you don't plan at all, just because it might fail. It's quite simple maths that when two enemy creeps are losing HP as fast, and they both began at the same amount, they will die at approximately the same time unless something interferes. Therefore, you interfere so that you are able to potentially kill both creeps and not just one- that is unless you got spells to make that job easier.

 

[DevilDuke1995]

DotA 4ever
HON's heroes voices suck and heroes that are not exact copies from dota are far than imbalanced

 

[Dougletron]

DotA 4ever
HON's heroes voices suck and heroes that are not exact copies from dota are far than imbalanced

The voices suck? Your not going to play a game because you think the voices suck? ...lol.. The heroes that aren't exact copies are fine atm... it's the heroes that are from Dota that the HoN community is theory crafting to fix like Tempest/Enigma which carry over imbalance.

 

[LordDz]

I have to side with Purple on this one, I for one think denying is plain boring, sure you get the little "Oh Im so good at denying" feeling when doing it, but its frustrating to not get any gold.

and by saying like LoL:
Killing your own troops, WTF?

 

[Deleted member 157129]

I have to side with Purple on this one, I for one think denying is plain boring, sure you get the little "Oh Im so good at denying" feeling when doing it, but its frustrating to not get any gold.

and by saying like LoL:
Killing your own troops, WTF?

No, you don't get a good feeling because you manage to deny, you get a good feeling when your level starts to skip ahead of your opponent, and after a while you'll be two levels ahead, and having a huge advantage in your lane. Plus, you keep yourself safe by forcing the battle near your own tower AND you take away money from your enemy. You're only denying troops that are going to die in less than a second anyway, and thus you could hardly argue morale into this. It's like pulling the plug for someone on life support (I consider it inhuman to force them to live like that).
Besides, if you're good at denying, you're also good at last hitting, it's a complimentary skill.

 

[Insincerity]

DotA/HoN is like a fucking triathlon. First, it's a game of accuracy and timing; you deny and last hit creeps in a sort of tug of war to control the lane. Then, you go around and gank people, and then you just beat the shit out of each other until someone wins.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

DotA/HoN is like a fucking triathlon. First, it's a game of accuracy and timing; you deny and last hit creeps in a sort of tug of war to control the lane. Then, you go around and gank people, and then you just beat the shit out of each other until someone wins.

In all banality, indeed. Except one tends to execute the secondary event at all times through the game. Ganging is essential to get the upper hand in an advance towards the enemy base.

 

[Just_Spectating]

shiik obviously plays too many games here.

 

[Rokushiki]

awesome graphics but way too many bugs

 

[SwampRaider]

Open Beta Has arrived.


There aren't as many bugs anymore, the game is SHWEET!

 

[White-Lion]

I agree with SwampRaider
People who likes Dota should check this out

 

[choji]

i played HoN and i have to say its not so good as League of Legend and LoL is much better the the real Dota

 

[MortAr]

Too bad they are making it P2P (Pay-to-Play), which means there's a one-time fee ($30). Also, after 12th of May you won't be able to login with non-purchased account.

Also this stinks and I hope the game looses all of its popularity and die soon.

 

[Arowanna]

Too bad they are making it P2P (Pay-to-Play), which means there's a one-time fee ($30). Also, after 12th of May you won't be able to login with non-purchased account.

Also this stinks and I hope the game looses all of its popularity and die soon.

That's a lie :S
HoN won't lose it's popularity just because it's P2P. People are way to addicted.

 

[N1ghthawk]

Is this the one with the cartoon tree model that looks like it was made in the 80s or is that league of legends?

 

[syltman]

Too bad they are making it P2P (Pay-to-Play), which means there's a one-time fee ($30). Also, after 12th of May you won't be able to login with non-purchased account.

Also this stinks and I hope the game looses all of its popularity and die soon.

Hopefully it will clear out the morrons

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Too bad they are making it P2P (Pay-to-Play), which means there's a one-time fee ($30). Also, after 12th of May you won't be able to login with non-purchased account.

Also this stinks and I hope the game looses all of its popularity and die soon.

I thought Pay-to-Play indicated playtime-fees, ie a monthly fee.