help me improve this unit

[Lord Aiden]

@-Phoenix- This whole argument basically depends on the level of micromanagement skills the player has; if he's really good at it he can keep a large army alive, if not then he can't, also the abilities the healers possess for instance abilities similar to healing wave would keep a larger number of units alive, were abilities like holy light or rejuvination would keep a small amount of heavily units alive for much longer. Larger armies can do more damage, however not everyone has the skills required to micromanage a large force. Anyway back to the subject, I never really dealt with splash or line damage, but @Rem I would suggest you experiment in such a way as to make the unit damage a few units close to it, similar to how cleaving attack works but with a smaller radius, or you could try modifying cleaving attack itself. Also a good point about medium armor, but I would suggest you just keep the anti-air attack rather than use ensnare.

@disruptive_ Those are some great ideas

 

[Rem]

Some great ideas u guys, im currently trying a few out

 

[Lord Aiden]

so @Rem any progress?

 

[Rem]

So I have a few options for the Scarlet Defender, or rather for his abilities, he will have an ability called "Scarlet Shell," (a PASSIVE ability) but Im not set on what exactly it will do,
here are the options

a) Scarlet shell will reduce ranged attacks by x (atleast 10) and deal 25% of incoming melee damage back to the attacker

b) Scarlet shell will reduce spell and magic damage by y (atleast 50%) and give the Scarlet Defender at least 7 armor

c) Scarlet shell will make the Scarlet Defender immune to spells and magic while giving him an armor bonus of 5 or so

d) Scarlet shell will make the Scarlet Defender immune to spells and magic and deal 25% of incoming melee damage back to the attacker

e) Scarlet shell will reduce all attacks by z (at least 10) while and deal 25% of incoming melee damage back to the attacker

 

[Lord Aiden]

e would be too OP, I'm going with either a or b,

 

[cleavinghammer]

Same. Maybe have a way to choose which upgrade it gets (resists ranged/magic) and have a special effect to show which t is, so you know what to counter it with.

 

[Lord Alyx]

a) Scarlet shell will reduce ranged attacks by x (atleast 10) and deal 25% of incoming melee damage back to the attacker


Strengths:

-Less vulnerable to ranged units

-Melee units will last a shorter time when attacking this unit


Weaknesses:

-Vulnerable to offensive spellcasters and offensive hero abilities (e.g. Storm Bolt, Frost Nova)



b) Scarlet shell will reduce spell and magic damage by y (atleast 50%) and give the Scarlet Defender at least 7 armor


Strengths:

-Less vulnerable to spellcasters and offensive hero abilities

-Less vulnerable to heavy air units (e.g. chimera)

-Can withstand more damage


Weaknesses:

-More likely to be swarmed by basic infantry units



c) Scarlet shell will make the Scarlet Defender immune to spells and magic while giving him an armor bonus of 5 or so


Strengths:

-Not vulnerable to spellcasters and offensive hero abilities

-Not vulnerable to heavy air units (e.g. chimera)

-Can withstand more damage


Weaknesses:

-More likely to be swarmed by basic infantry units

-Vulnerable to massing of ranged non-magic units (e.g. Berzerkers and Archers)



d) Scarlet shell will make the Scarlet Defender immune to spells and magic and deal 25% of incoming melee damage back to the attacker


Strengths:

-Not vulnerable to spellcasters and offensive hero abilities

-Not vulnerable to heavy air units (e.g. chimera)

-Will not likely be swarmed by basic infantry or other melee units


Weaknesses:

-Vulnerable to massing of ranged non-magic units (e.g. Berzerkers and Archers)



e) Scarlet shell will reduce all attacks by z (at least 10) while and deal 25% of incoming melee damage back to the attacker


Strengths:

-Will not likely be swarmed by basic infantry or other melee units

-Can take on much more damage


Weaknesses:

-Vulnerable to spellcasters and offensive hero abilities

-Vulnerable to heavy air units (e.g. chimera)



D would likely produce the strongest balanced unit, while C would make the strongest defensive unit

 

[Grey.Knight]

e) Scarlet shell will reduce all attacks by z (at least 10) while and deal 25% of incoming melee damage back to the attacker

This is what the naga dragon turtle has, yet its not too op because 1. Its extremely vulnerable to units with magic-type attacks and 2. spells, especially spells designed to damage a unit rather than put a negative buff on it, like shackwave, war stomp, impale etc. are very good at dealing with it

 

[Rem]

This really makes me think about the ability will have an effect on the gameplay, also i dont remember the naga sea turtle being op

 

[Lord Aiden]

This is what the naga dragon turtle has, yet its not too op because 1. Its extremely vulnerable to units with magic-type attacks and 2. spells, especially spells designed to damage a unit rather than put a negative buff on it, like shackwave, war stomp, impale etc. are very good at dealing with it

good point, it just depends on the amount of hp at the end, if it has 800 or 900 it will be just a regular tier 3 unit, if it has over around 1200 it will be op

 

[Rem]

i thought about it and giving the unit complete magic immunity will serve to make it too op, so that narrows a few choices down

 

[Lord Aiden]

so choices c & d are out?

 

[Rem]

I'm thinking

Reduces magic attacks and spells by 85% and deals 33% of melee attacks back to the attacker

 

[Lord Aiden]

Interesting tell me how it goes

 

[Lord Alyx]

If anything you could just raise the units armor while keeping its HP around 900-1000, that way it'll be slightly stronger but not op

 

[Lord Aiden]

Wait, how exactly would that work ?

 

[Lord Alyx]

armor has less of a variable effect than hp

when I was modding I had unit which was originally designed to have 1380 or so hp, however it was pretty much op when we tested it, so instead we gave it 1200 hp and increased its armor by 3, it was more less balanced

 

[ArchDuke]

A tank unit? just give it like 1500+ hp and hardened skin
where's @cleavinghammer on this, he likes giving advice on these sort of matters

 

[Lord Alyx]

It has to be a properly balanced tank unit, not just a strong tank, regarding the armor increase as an hp substitute. If you give a unit too much health it may become op, too little and it will be weak, one solution I found to work was to give it an hp between the min and the max but give it additional armor

for instance I had a unit that could've had anywhere from 750 to 1200 hp, at 750 it was extremely weak and got destroyed by 2 footsman, at 1200 it was too op, it could destroy 3 footsman or kill 2 tier 3 heavy units, so instead we have it like 12 armor and set its hp to 900, this balanced the unit, it was no longer weak or op...

 

[Rem]

ok , so I got it down to this: 900hp, 15 armor


attack1 damage 32-40 1.5s cooldown (normal melee attack)


attack2 damage 32-42 1.65s cooldown (piercing ranged attack, 500 range)


Abilities:


Scarlet shell – reduces magic & spell damage by 85% and deals 33% of melee damage to the attacker


Critical strike – gives a 20% chance to do 3x the damage on an attack


Resistant Skin – Makes the unit resistant to some spells and shortens the duration of other

@Lord Aiden @cleavinghammer @-Phoenix- @Grey.Knight @disruptive_ what do you guys think?

 

[Lord Alyx]

I don't know about the critical strike 20% chance to do three times the damage is a lot, but otherwise everything looks alright, test it out to see how it performs, then post the result so I can assist further, I think it seems more or less balanced, just gotta give it a food cost of 5 and make it somewhat expensive to train

One last time I would suggest you give attack2 a longer cooldown (like 2.5 or so) but increaase the damage to 38 -56 or so, that should balance the unit out

 

[Lord Aiden]

New
I would have to agree with -phoenix-'s statements, also isn't 15 armor a bit too much? But then again the unit has 900hp which is just 100 above an upgraded grunt, so I guess not

also 33% damage? isn't the strongest thorns aura like 30%?

 

[Rem]

New

also 33% damage? isn't the strongest thorns aura like 30%?

Yes. But this is not an aura, it only effects the unit who possesses it, therefore its perfectly fine

 

[Lord Aiden]

what about adjusting the second attack like -phoenix- suggested

 

[Rem]

I think the second attack is fine. But I still might try his suggestion

 

[cleavinghammer]

It looks good, though I'm not sure about Critical Strike. Since the other abilities are anti-magic, maybe give it Feedback instead (like the humans' attempt at copying Spell Breakers).

How big is it in terms of collision? Footman or Knight-sized circle?

 

[Lord Alyx]

I think the second attack is fine. But I still might try his suggestion

@Rem: do whatever you want, I'm only giving you advice, or rather what I would think will make the unit overall better, at the end of the day its your unit, do whatever you want with it

 

[Lord Aiden]

It looks good, though I'm not sure about Critical Strike. Since the other abilities are anti-magic, maybe give it Feedback instead (like the humans' attempt at copying Spell Breakers).

How big is it in terms of collision? Footman or Knight-sized circle?

I do agree here with what you said about critical strike, however feedback would just make the unit good against mainly spell casters and heroes (especially intelligence oriented ones) if you take a paladin or another hero whos main attribute is strength and who has ~450 or so mana, feedback will damage him, but he can just use up all his mana in order to prevent this, and since his strength lies in his attack and hp he will still be useful, on the other hand intelligence based heroes are basically spellcasters, and if you deplete their mana they will fall rather easily, plus they have more mana to start with

 

[Rem]

@cleavinghammer Critical strike because its an easy way to make the unit deal more damage vs other unit and less damage against buildings which it doesnt work against, remember its supposed to be a defender

im not sure about the collision size yet. its not a huge unit though

@Lord Aiden yes i agree about feedback, its effective vs heroes, but does nothing against melee or ranged units with no mana

 

[Lord Aiden]

You could use demolish, modify it so it makes this unit do more damage against units and less against buildings, or maybe give it envenomed weapons or slow poison or something of that nature for the same purpose, otherwise I'm out of ideas here, I modded abilities, but I did not get this deep into it

 

[Lord Alyx]

Although I've delved very deeps into both the mechanics of the editor as well as how those very mechanics can be used to modify gameplay I've never actually had to create something that was purely defensive (besides those flying machines I've talked about which had no ground attack), I think normal attacks do 70 or so percent damage to fortified armor, so as long as the unit has normal attack it work be much of a threat to buildings (only siege attacks and spells like earthquake really are) But you can make an ability that for example sets a unit that is attacked on fire, or slows it down, a modified slow poison as well as other abilities can do this, and this will hurt units and will not impact buildings at all, also if the unit is purely defensive as someone had already suggested make it have slow speed, so it can't rush a base, also u could give it a devotion aura, but with the abilities you've described it would make the unit seriously op, anyway those are my thoughts on the matter.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Or you could just remove critical strikes all together, because it really messes up the whole "tanking unit" fantasy you seemingly want to go for

The same goes for other abilities... As it stands right now, it seems your unit has a really hard time deciding what it wants to be. On one hand, it's good against enemy casters (i.e. mostly ranged units), on the other hand it's also an anti-air option and an anti-melee option and it has critical strikes so that it can deal more decent damage against enemy units...

It might just be me, but I get the feeling that you want to design a unit that's basically a slightly more tanky core/anti-caster unit, not a specialized and flavorful tanking unit.

 

[Grey.Knight]

Ok so you want a tank, but 900hp? Don't most tank have more, like close to 1350 or so?

about the critical strike, I would replace it with stun or maybe something like roar, idk , im not an expert on this

the anti-air attack should be weak because otherwise this unit will get mass produced against everything

idk what else i can suggest to you

 

[Lord Aiden]

no response on the demolish?

 

[Rem]

@Lord Aiden i have not had the time to experiment with it, that all

 

[Lord Aiden]

Try playing with the naga dragon turtle unit, make it a melee attacker and make its second attack an anti-air piercing attack, its just another idea I've had

 

[Lord Alyx]

The naga dragon turtle is more or less a multi-purpose siege unit(it was designed to take care of buildings), sure it can be a tank, but it can be easy taken out by multiple spellcasters.

One suggestion I have if the unit is purely defensive give it skills like fan of knives that could be used to deter multiple attackers but are useless against structures, also make this skill powerful but give it a small range (like 380 or so) so although it would hit hard, it wouldnt hit far away units.

 

[DevZ]

Although I've delved very deeps into both the mechanics of the editor as well as how those very mechanics can be used to modify gameplay I've never actually had to create something that was purely defensive (besides those flying machines I've talked about which had no ground attack), I think normal attacks do 70 or so percent damage to fortified armor, so as long as the unit has normal attack it work be much of a threat to buildings (only siege attacks and spells like earthquake really are) But you can make an ability that for example sets a unit that is attacked on fire, or slows it down, a modified slow poison as well as other abilities can do this, and this will hurt units and will not impact buildings at all, also if the unit is purely defensive as someone had already suggested make it have slow speed, so it can't rush a base, also u could give it a devotion aura, but with the abilities you've described it would make the unit seriously op, anyway those are my thoughts on the matter.

Modified slow poison is indeed a good option imho

Or you could just remove critical strikes all together, because it really messes up the whole "tanking unit" fantasy you seemingly want to go for

Critical strike does make the unit very efficient against other units, but not structures, its not actually a bad ability to have on a unit like this, just as long as it doesnt make the unit OP, and if its 20% to do 2x the damage it should be fine

Ok so you want a tank, but 900hp? Don't most tank have more, like close to 1350 or so?

I have actually opened the editor and experimented with it. . . with enough armor (anywhere from 12+ armor) you could give the unit like 850 hp and it will take quiet a lot of abuse, with the exception of spells, so it doesnt need 300 extra hit points to be tough

The naga dragon turtle is more or less a multi-purpose siege unit(it was designed to take care of buildings), sure it can be a tank, but it can be easy taken out by multiple spellcasters.

One suggestion I have if the unit is purely defensive give it skills like fan of knives that could be used to deter multiple attackers but are useless against structures, also make this skill powerful but give it a small range (like 380 or so) so although it would hit hard, it wouldnt hit far away units.

Good point on the fan of knives ability, but the naga sea turtle is just the Naga's short range siege unit, its strong, but its not intended to be a tank, plus I believe you can polymorph or hex or slow it. . . so its not the best choice here

 

[Lord Alyx]

Ok about the naga sea turtle and its abilities: it basically returns 30% of melee damage back to the attacker, which is really good

It has hardened shell but only 2 armor

Now here is what hardened shell does as opposed to having high armor:

Hardened shell decreases all non-spell attacks by 12, but it cannot decrease them to lower than 3 damage
Armor on the other hand decreases all non-spell attacks by a given percentage, the higher the armor, the higher the percentage

I gave a unit 17 armor which reduces all non-spell attacks on it by 50%

I gave another unit the hardened skin ability

If the unit is attacked by another unit whose attack damage is 23 or lower then hardened skin is a better option, units with low attack damage are usually tier 1 soldiers (footman, grunts, etc.)

23-12 = 11 23*0.5= 11.5 11<11.5
Hardened skin 17 Armor Comparison: Hardened skin is better

If a unit is attacked by another unit whose attack damage is 24, hardened skin is exactly the same as having 17 armor

24-12 = 12 24*0.5 = 12 12 = 12
Hardened skin 17 armor Comparison: Draw

If a unit is attacked by another unit whose attack damage is 25 or greater than having 17 armor is the better option, these can either be upgraded units, or tier 3 heavy units (tauren, knight, druid of the claw in bear form)

25 - 12 = 13 25*0.5 = 12.5 13>12.5
Hardened skin 17 armor Comparison: 17 Armor is better


Anyway the point I'm making is this: the abilities and/or armor you give it should depend directly on what you're trying to make it counter; if its a lot of un-unpgraded tier 1 units (footman, grunts, etc.) like at the beginning of a game then go with the hardened skin, however if your gonna be fighting rushes consisting of tier 3 units, or upgraded mid range units, you'd best go with the higher armor (in the campaign I was working on upgraded footmen did close to 30 damage, so I had to opt for higher armor)

tldr:

if you are planning to get attacked by 5 footmen --->pick hardened skin

If you are planning to get attacked by 5 knights or any higher tier units ---->pick higher armor

 

[DevZ]

@-Phoenix- :

There are various flaws to your reasoning:

>17 armor is way above the norm (even if its a result of upgrades)

>Its much easier, less costly, and more timely to rush with footmen or grunts than it is with knights or tauren, therefore its much more likely to actually happen

>Hardened shell works in sync with armor, meaning that whatever armor you give the unit will also help when you have hardened skin. So your calculations are incorrect unless you gave the unit 0 armor

>Upgraded footman deals 19 damage max which is less than 24. so hardened skin would still be better in your calculation, but I guess you did this for your campaign where tft stats are not relevant

I understand this particular unit is designed to have high armor, so I guess 17 is theoretically ok. But the only way this is better than hardened skin is if it only tends to gets attacked by very strong (attack-wise) unit, think heroes or tauren or something of that nature

 

[Lord Alyx]

ok, fair enough, but my argument was merely on how these two options effect a unit, and here you even stated that it would be better off when it was being attacked by units with strong attacks (which is what I imagined happening to a unit called the "Scarlet Defender") Also if I understand the mechanics used to make this unit correctly It could have either hardened skin or reduced magic and spell damage, and in addition to either choice it could return melee damage as well as have high armor.

If you have to choose between hardened skin and magical resistance knowing that the unit would have good armor in either scenario I would choose the resistance, otherwise although you may survive some footman rushes you will utterly get crushed by spellcasters and heavy aerial units

 

[DevZ]

No one mentioned the unit had heavy armor, and yes I see that if you have a choice between the two option the magic resistance is the better path

But if you are making a regular unit, 5 armor + hardened skin will effective defend against everything besides heroes, offensive spell casters, and some air units

 

[Lord Alyx]

I think the point is to make it well rounded

well rounded = no real weakness

But ye, for a regular unit hardened skin does wonders

Also the whole argument really depends on how much damage upgraded tier 1 units do in the map, if they do 15-19 damage, then yes you are absolutely correct, however if they do ~30 then your arguments are not valid, in my maps I give units 2 dice for every upgrade, so the attack increases quite a bit when you upgrade fully

 

[DevZ]

Why have such OP footmen???

 

[Lord Alyx]

Look at it this way; they need the 30 attack to be able to be balanced against what the tier 3 1000+hp units get for their attack, plus the tier 3 units have extra abilities

 

[DevZ]

ok. This has gone off topic too much. to get back on I, I would suggest to give the Scarlet defender magic & spell resistance, good armor (>10) and spiked shell or whatever else that damage return ability is named

 

[Rem]

Look at it this way; they need the 30 attack to be able to be balanced against what the tier 3 1000+hp units get for their attack, plus the tier 3 units have extra abilities

Sounds like you got some real OP tier 3 units in your maps =)

 

[Limitteditemeater]

Well going with the scarlet crusades theme you could give him possibly offensive light themed abilities such as giving a buff to themselves, healing themselves or an ally or a smite like abil. Going with the tank theme a piercing resistance is a good idea that I think you should keep in. Related to their tank nature a taunt could be a good idea along with a general damage reduction. Just some quick ideas I came up with so might not be best ;p

 

[Lord Alyx]

Sounds like you got some real OP tier 3 units in your maps =)

Tier 3

 

[Lord Aiden]

Sounds like you got some real OP tier 3 units in your maps =)

He probably got units like those scrapped Crusaders or Astral Knights from Silventria, some seriously op stuff