Hate Speech vs. Freedom of Speech

[Herman]

Please do not confuse this post with TheHives rules, as this has nothing to do with it, TheHive is a privately owned and operated site and deserves to be ruled as such

I thought somebody could get confused over this
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Ok, I have been thinking about something, when you call somebody something derragotary, it is as if there is some kind of penalty, it seemed to make sense, as it is similar to simply insulting somebody, but what was a little strange, was "Hate Crimes"

I mean, you call somebody a "f*cking worthless piece of donkeysh*t" before you beat them, you get a sentence for beating them

You call a black man a n**ger, before you beat them, you get sentenced for beating them + more heavily punished for it being a hate crime

I mean, it seems to make sense in a ton of ways, but at the same time, it just isn't quite right, as if its being "un-racist"

And "un-racist" doesn't make any sense, because you would be discriminating against all other races (rascism!!! )

My point was that you have a freedom of speech, but if you speak your mind before you commit an atrocity, you recieve a higher penalty than if you kept your trap shut...

Censorship???

(Don't get me wrong, scum is scum, there has just been alot of talk about rights in the past year and it occured to me that it could be against a persons rights, I mean hell even saddam hussein who gased thousands still got an American trial, with various American rights [ranging from being given food to not being beaten to death along with a fair trial])

I would like to read some opinions from you folks, as I wanna get a good argument for each side (why its right, why its wrong, consequences of changing/not changing the rule, etc.)

 

[Elenai]

Political Correctness..feh...In the name of "equal" liberty they rip the freedom from many to pamper the few.

Common Decency is what we need. Certainly you shouldn't beat some one or call them a derogatory name in the first place. But why should you get in more trouble for breaking political correctness, when the same exact situation:

Ex) an African American beats up a white guy and calls him "cracker" "honky" and doesn't receive the same punishment as a white guy beating up an African American and calling him the N-word.

Fairness is dead.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Biggest difference between white pride rallies and black pride rallies is this: Black pride rallies are broken up by the KKK, white pride rallies are broken up by the government. "Freedom of speech" has been distorted beyond any recognition. Political correctness did a lot of it, ironically.

 

[Hakeem]

Sticks and stones > words.

Hmm, I think that about sums it up for me.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Nuclear ICBMs > sticks and stones.

 

[~Void~]

my sticks and stones > your sticks and stones

WHOA i went there :O

 

[GST_Nemisis]

sticks and stones = owns

oh yeh it rhymes...

 

[Herman]

Offtopic - I have an Albanian friend who through rocks at tanks when he was a kid

I don't really have much to come back to topic on ><, although that is a good point with the KKK breaking up rallies, although that was more in the 20th century, not so much anymore

I mean, I am not a member of the KKK, but I would assume they have been become pretty broken in the past hundred years

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Yeah, but you get the point completely, which is the point.

 

[Instant Ramen]

I just love how there is no freedom of speech. <3

 

[Herman]

Erm, there is freedom of speech, but when it comes to the personal level, it has its limitations

And to me that sounds exactly how it should be now that I think about it

But now I am still a bit uneasy about these politically incorrect phrases and such, as it seems to go against the whole "all men are [created] equal" thing (which today mean all humans)

 

[TheDivineBoss]

If we got no freedom of speech, then why are we still posting?

 

[Herman]

I just love how there is no freedom of speech. <3

Yeah, I could go ahead and interpret it as I would , but I'd much rather you elaborate

 

[Teh_Ephy]

If we got no freedom of speech, then why are we still posting?

Well obviously, the intelligent people need to make up for the huge amount of spam made by people who are less so.

 

[Herman]

Well obviously, the intelligent people need to make up for the huge amount of spam made by people who are less so.

Uhh... you lost me

 

[Teh_Ephy]

People who are "not so" in context of people who are intelligent. Eg: people who aren't so intelligent require people who are intelligent to make up the difference.

 

[Herman]

Uhhhmm.... I guess?

You had something about spam???

 

[Voidwalker]

Only intelligent people should be allowed to speak freely. People should have madatory IQ test when kids so those kids with statistically low IQs have their mouths sewn and tongue extracted.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Voidwalker: Fail. Hard. IQ has nothing to do with one's ability to speak intelligently, aside from the fact that your idea is completely fascist, and very much elitist. Elitism isn't that bad, except you're taking it very far, and fascism can just rot in hell. Also: Delicious irony!

 

[Voidwalker]

Voidwalker: Fail. Hard. IQ has nothing to do with one's ability to speak intelligently, aside from the fact that your idea is completely fascist, and very much elitist. Elitism isn't that bad, except you're taking it very far, and fascism can just rot in hell. Also: Delicious irony!

Well, we can force the hand of fate or leave the world as it is.

Besides, if I really mean what I posted, I would've written a complete and detailed paragraph/speech.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Well, I assumed that you were exaggerating when you said their mouths sewn shut and their tongues extracted, but as for the rest of the post, it's fairly hard to discern what is sarcasm from what is not online.

 

[Arvedui]

slightly off-topic of what you are discussing.. but slightly more on-topic for the thread <.<

I know this is a touchy issue, and I don't care what politics you have..
but if Barack Obama had been a white man and had gone to a white supremest church for 20 years, he would not be a presidential contender anymore.

The fact is that white people here (the US), for some reason, feel that they need to keep on apologizing for slavery. So they don't recognize that maybe some black people are racist and do hate white people.

Everyone has the freedom to think or say whatever they want, but they cannot incite racial or religious hatred against anyone, because that inhibits the rights of other people.

Political correctness has gone too far in the U.S.
It's practically reverse racism now.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I believe that I've said that earlier in the thread, or at least in other threads. Racism works backwards now; White males are totally fucked, because women can pull the sexism card, and minorities can pull the racism card.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

You call a black man a n**ger, before you beat them, you get sentenced for beating them + more heavily punished for it being a hate crime

Because of the motive behind it. If you're kicking someones ass purely because of their skin color, that is a hate crime. Of course it is wrong to fight someone in any case, but the motive makes a big difference.

For example, if someone grabbed your girlfriend's ass when you were next to her it might just piss you off enough to start hitting them. That is completely different than walking up to someone who's Hispanic or Black and kicking their ass for no reason because of their skin color. The latter is a hate crime. The United States’ Constitution protects the freedom of speech, not the freedom of hate-speech.

And "un-racist" doesn't make any sense, because you would be discriminating against all other races (rascism!!! )

Race isn't real. It is a social construct that serves only to further divide us and push us apart. We are all human, we are all the same in that sense. Does heart surgery or brain surgery work differently in a Hispanic person as opposed to someone who's Caucasian? No, because race makes no difference in everything outside of how quickly do you get a sunburn. Race does not exist.

I believe that I've said that earlier in the thread, or at least in other threads. Racism works backwards now; White males are totally fucked, because women can pull the sexism card, and minorities can pull the racism card.

Do you seriously want to go there? Do you get pulled over by the police just because of your skin color, because you are white? Do you have, on average, lower salaries than your co-workers because of your race? Do you get put in prison more often than people of any other skin color? Is 12% of your ENTIRE race in America behind bars right now? I didn't think so. Black's have it much harder than whites and it is completely ignorant of you to think otherwise.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Because of the motive behind it. If you're kicking someones ass purely because of their skin color, that is a hate crime. Of course it is wrong to fight someone in any case, but the motive makes a big difference.

For example, if someone grabbed your girlfriend's ass when you were next to her it might just piss you off enough to start hitting them. That is completely different than walking up to someone who's Hispanic or Black and kicking their ass for no reason because of their skin color. The latter is a hate crime. The United States’ Constitution protects the freedom of speech, not the freedom of hate-speech.

I would assume that Herman means that under the exact same circumstances, calling an African a nigger is more legally serious than calling anyone a useless piece of shit (or whatever).

Race isn't real. It is a social construct that serves only to further divide us and push us apart. We are all human, we are all the same in that sense. Does heart surgery or brain surgery work differently in a Hispanic person as opposed to someone who's Caucasian? No, because race makes no difference in everything outside of how quickly do you get a sunburn. Race does not exist.

Race is heritage, is likeliness of having a disease. Medically, race does exist, but only as far as susceptibility to disease.

Do you seriously want to go there? Do you get pulled over by the police just because of your skin color, because you are white? Do you have, on average, lower salaries than your co-workers because of your race? Do you get put in prison more often than people of any other skin color? Is 12% of your ENTIRE race in America behind bars right now? I didn't think so. Black's have it much harder than whites and it is completely ignorant of you to think otherwise.

That's because of culture, and I would go there, but I should have said that I meant legally. Legally, whites males have it much worse.

 

[Herman]

Because of the motive behind it. If you're kicking someones ass purely because of their skin color, that is a hate crime. Of course it is wrong to fight someone in any case, but the motive makes a big difference.

For example, if someone grabbed your girlfriend's ass when you were next to her it might just piss you off enough to start hitting them. That is completely different than walking up to someone who's Hispanic or Black and kicking their ass for no reason because of their skin color. The latter is a hate crime. The United States’ Constitution protects the freedom of speech, not the freedom of hate-speech.



Race isn't real. It is a social construct that serves only to further divide us and push us apart. We are all human, we are all the same in that sense. Does heart surgery or brain surgery work differently in a Hispanic person as opposed to someone who's Caucasian? No, because race makes no difference in everything outside of how quickly do you get a sunburn. Race does not exist.



Do you seriously want to go there? Do you get pulled over by the police just because of your skin color, because you are white? Do you have, on average, lower salaries than your co-workers because of your race? Do you get put in prison more often than people of any other skin color? Is 12% of your ENTIRE race in America behind bars right now? I didn't think so. Black's have it much harder than whites and it is completely ignorant of you to think otherwise.

Aye, that is the argument that makes it seem so plausible, yes the motive behind it is not good, but the motive behind any crime is not good, and the punishment should not be judged on the motive rather the crime, the law is the law, no matter what had transpired beforehand

As in, "I don't give a crap why you shot his head off, whether you hated him and wanted to, or you loved him and got pissy for a few seconds, you still shot his head off!!!"

When you betray the saying "The Law is The Law", it sounds to me like the start of corruption

I'm gonna kinda reiterate what I had said before, it seems to me the only reason these types of situations hold any weight is due to a large scale of people getting all pissy, and a scoundrel of a politicians jumping right infront of the crowd yelling "I know some lawyers, lets change this, follow me!!!"


The bit about being pulled over, getting paid less, etc etc, there are few things I'd like to respond with, the first is that kind of stuff is mostly TV bullsh*t, you get pulled over for doing something wrong on the road
There is a reason I recently came across that provides a very logical explanation as to why blacks have all these problems, between delinquents and bad pay

The Welfare Dilemma

 

[Teh_Ephy]

As a matter of fact, intent is a massive part of the law. Your two scenarios are the difference between 1st and 3rd degree murder, Herman. And the situation is the other part; shooting someone in self defense is different than shooting someone because you're angry at them. By that sort of logic, off-duty police officers are comparable to robbers and thieves.

 

[brad.dude03]

The racist card is a bullshit one. Political correctness is pointless if you ask me. Seriously, the problem with minority groups is that most of them are extreme, in that instead of them wanting to have an equal peaceful existance with you, they want to completely conquer you and force their opinions down your throat. Fuck that. I'm all for black people being treated equal to everyone else, but why the hell should I have to take shit just because i'm white?

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

The ignorance level in here just went up tenfold. Brad, I'm pretty disappointed with you after that post. Are you really that oblivious to the substandard treatment minorities get in comparison to Whites? If you are "all for" equality then you would agree that racism is a BAD thing and needs to be overcome and dealt with. That statement only serves to contradict yourself from your introductory sentence "the racist card is a bullshit one".

 

[brad.dude03]

Yeah, if you're familiar with the phrase "pulling the racist card" it implies that someone is using their racial minority to abuse a situation. I'm not fucking for that, and I never will be.

I'm all for racism ending, I just hate when people abuse their situation. It's like the homeless. We pay taxes in order to support social services, but how many of these homless people abuse their welfare checks for alcohol and drugs? Should we keep paying out the ass to support their bad habits?

It's the same way. There are obviously people out there in genuine need of support, just like there are minorities that are being treated like shit, but there are plenty of them out there that just give the rest a shit name, and it's these people that I have no tolerance for, not the minority as a whole.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

What brad.dude03 means is something that actually happens a lot; the assholes of society ruin the fun for the people who actually play by the rules. For example, some guy walks into a store my friend is assistant manager at, and asks if they are applying. My friend simply says "no," and the person says "Oh, well you just don't want to hire me because I'm gay." That's pulling the discrimination card; that person was abusing the system, which was put in place because of abuse happening in the other direction. Egalitarianism is a joke, because of ridiculous things like that.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Alright, abusing the system is completely different than what I had been talking about though. I can definitely see that point and I agree it is wrong to take advantage of being disadvantaged (like homeless spending all their money on alcohol/drugs instead of using what the earn to try and get back on their feet), but that is way off of what I had been discussing.

 

[Herman]

As a matter of fact, intent is a massive part of the law. Your two scenarios are the difference between 1st and 3rd degree murder, Herman. And the situation is the other part; shooting someone in self defense is different than shooting someone because you're angry at them. By that sort of logic, off-duty police officers are comparable to robbers and thieves.

Aye that is a very strong example of intent and law, but in my eyes I do in fact see a killer as a killer not matter whom he works for or what he believes in
(By what he believes in I mean what he believes a police should react in specific situations)

This is where the big ol' "Society makes the Rules" comes into play, where I get the feeling America is on a serious landslide, not due to any specific party, but more-so where the culture and general society as a whole is headed

In my defense I'd like to point out the utterance of a few harsh vowels is a bit different from staring down a murderous criminal who wants you dead

 

[Hakeem]

The ignorance level in here just went up tenfold. Brad, I'm pretty disappointed with you after that post. Are you really that oblivious to the substandard treatment minorities get in comparison to Whites? If you are "all for" equality then you would agree that racism is a BAD thing and needs to be overcome and dealt with. That statement only serves to contradict yourself from your introductory sentence "the racist card is a bullshit one".

I have not experienced racism, other then feeling like my speech is limited by political correctness. That's my primary concern, so sue me.

This is where the big ol' "Society makes the Rules" comes into play, where I get the feeling America is on a serious landslide, not due to any specific party, but more-so where the culture and general society as a whole is headed

I don't make the laws, the government does. Maybe we should consider this when electing officials.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Alright, abusing the system is completely different than what I had been talking about though. I can definitely see that point and I agree it is wrong to take advantage of being disadvantaged (like homeless spending all their money on alcohol/drugs instead of using what the earn to try and get back on their feet), but that is way off of what I had been discussing.

Well then we were arguing about two different things, and that argument was pointless.

Aye that is a very strong example of intent and law, but in my eyes I do in fact see a killer as a killer not matter whom he works for or what he believes in
(By what he believes in I mean what he believes a police should react in specific situations)

That sort of black-and-white is the sort of thing that keeps politicians from making it into Congress. For example, being unwillingly forced to kill someone by someone else (ie: hostages, or other such situations, and yes I know it doesn't happen) is much different than pulling a gun on someone you have slight issues with because you've got anger issues, is much different than meticulously planning and executing a murder. Context is the most important thing in the law, and while a killer is a killer, they come in different styles.

This is where the big ol' "Society makes the Rules" comes into play, where I get the feeling America is on a serious landslide, not due to any specific party, but more-so where the culture and general society as a whole is headed

It's because of secular progressives, and their completely backwards view of how people should be treated, and their immaculate understanding of U.S. law.

In my defense I'd like to point out the utterance of a few harsh vowels is a bit different from staring down a murderous criminal who wants you dead

Er... where did this come from?

 

[Herman]

Lawl, forget the last bit I don't understand nor remember what I was thinking when I wrote it