Government

[Nitrious]

Hey this might come across as weird, but it's the OT.

What do people think of governments? I personally think capitalism is the most stable form, but I can't stand when people think Communism is evil. It starts as a good intention which is then ruined by a corrupt leader (e.g. Stalin, Mao, etc.)

Contrary to what you're told in school, socialism is NOT communism.

What do you people think?

 

[Kwah]

Firstly, capitalism is an economic, not governmental system.

Communism is an example of a socialist state, where socialism is again an economic system where the government controls the means of production.

It starts as a good intention which is then ruined by a corrupt leader (e.g. Stalin, Mao, etc.)

But empirically, you can see that corruption follows from a socialist system. No one is motivated to work, as they receive benefits anyway, and a highly bi-modal distribution tends to occurs between 'party members' and non. Having an idealistic system that simply, does not work isn't exactly useful when the practical application always fails.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Not really, communism, capitalism and other shit doesn't matter. It's state of mind of country, usually those countries tend to evolve some sort of dictatorships. After all, after fall of communism, in these countries the living isn't really better, just because US and EU now can sell products there, doesn't mean the living is now better there.

 

[Tleno]

Well, Socialism is lighter form of communism, which trues to achieve not a complete equality and money-free civilization, but just so all people would be more financically and politically equal.

 

[Zombie]

Communism is not evil, humans are.

As a devoted communist nazi, I approve of your message.

And yeah, American schools are brainwashing children.

 

[Tleno]

Communism is not evil, humans are.

As a devoted communist nazi, I approve of your message.

And yeah, American schools are brainwashing children.

Most of European schools do the same. They keep saying to us that Communists are godless liar muggers...
Plus Lenin was also quite liberal, he actually allowed the freedom of marriage and most of things like that (Well except for freedom of religion, they believe that religion makes people unequal), Stalin made all those strict laws and limitations, plus he was quite paranoical and killed most of great people like General Zhukov just because he didn't thrust them.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Pinochet also killed many people, but he wasn't communist.

 

[Tleno]

Pinochet also killed many people, but he wasn't communist.

Indeed. Ussually murders are dictatorship goverments, it doesn't really depend on factors like its communistic goverment.

 

[Zombie]

Tleno, the thing is.

Communism is associated with evil and tyranny because that's how it materialized in humanity, hence my statement "communism is not evil, humans are". It was just another great idea that some guys used to their own gain.

Why is it important how people look at communism if it can't work as it's supposed to be, creating cruelty alone?

 

[Fussiler1]

Most of European schools do the same. They keep saying to us that Communists are godless liar muggers...

Hello. I'm from Europe.


Now, where the hell are you talking about?


Maybe with East-European schools, yes, but in most countries in West Europe the history book is unbiased.


Anyways, I think we have here some mix of Communism and Capitalism. 'Tis working out pretty good.

 

[Tleno]

Hello. I'm from Europe.


Now, where the hell are you talking about?


Maybe with East-European schools, yes, but in most countries in West Europe the history book is unbiased.

Hmmm, glad that at least in your schools goverment doesn't manipulate history...

 

[Disasterpiece512]

History is screwed up by the government in contries that were formarly run by a communist regime. They say they enforce democracy (which is actually post-communism in my country, as it's being run as a democratic country by communist people... Oh, the irony). Also, while I agree that communism isn't evil, it's not good either. It might have started out as a good intention, but in politics, extremes are a VERY bad idea. That means communism, nazism and fascism are all out. Democracy fails sometimes too, but eh...

 

[Fussiler1]

Democracy fails sometimes too, but eh...

What kind of democracy are you talking about?

 

[The Reborn Devil]

I have learned that Communism was a very nice system, it's just that they couldn't do it right, which is a fail on the humans side. I like the system we have in Norway. We've taken the good from Capitalism and the good from Communism and merged it together.

 

[Zombie]

What kind of democracy are you talking about?

Ever been to Hungary?

We have a "democratic" establishment which consists of thousands of politicians doing nothing but swinging mud at each other and stealing tax money all day.

I mean it, thousands of billions somehow "disappeared" in the pockets of these fine supporters of ultimate democracy. <3

In that regard, having someone who supervises and crushes down on such bullshit is good.

Also. Ever seen reports of the Ukrainian parliament? Seen what the Greek government did?

Democracy sure has its flaws.

 

[Tleno]

Ever been to Hungary?

We have a "democratic" establishment which consists of thousands of politicians doing nothing but swinging mud at each other and stealing tax money all day.
Also. Seen reports of the Ukrainian parliament? Seen what the Greek government did?

You forgot to mention the horrible economical situation in Latvia and corrupt politicans of Lithuania...

 

[Zombie]

I'm not really familiar with those regions, but yes. I am aware of the fact that most post-communist countries failed to integrate democracy sufficiently.

 

[Tleno]

I'm not really familiar with those regions, but yes. I am aware of the fact that most post-communist countries failed to integrate democracy sufficiently.

I've noticed the same thing. Actually most of politicans still behave politically like in soviet union... like have you noticed that when shall we say President or maybe some kind of very immportant political person visits their city they have a habity to "prepare" all the streets and places they are gonna visit, like shall we say paint all the old houses and renew all the paiment, but all the renewals are ussually just for the time that person visits them and are only decorative?

 

[Zombie]

lol'd

I actually didn't know that, as they didn't do so in Hungary either except when ol' pal Chauchescu came over. They even spray painted the grass back then. xD

Now, on a serious note:

The "communist" governments did some irreversible damage during their presence. Imo, they corrupted the people in a sense that no matter how much they try thinking democracy is awesome, it will take generations to clean up stuff like corruption, the image of the caring state, the west being always more awesome and being used to getting sacked if you don't do your work.

Conclusion:

Communism = Nice.
People = Not nice.
(+) + (-) = (-)

Just like the integration of democracy among the wrong people.

Democracy = Nice.
The wrong people = Not nice.
(+) + (-) = (-)

Oh, btw. The NSA is watching you.

 

[Tleno]

Correction:
Communism = good
Hardworking honest people = even better
Corrupt asshole people = bad
(+)*(-)=(-)

 

[Deleted member 157129]

It has already been mentioned, but communism and capitalisms are not governmental systems; you can have a communistic dictatorship and a capitalistic dictatorship, they are both the same governmental system, they just have different view on economy (theoretically, because most communists are bound to have different opinions than capitalists on other subjects as an effect of the economical standpoints).

Now, as for whether communism or capitalism are evil; depends on your economical position or goal. If you aim to become a rich person with lots of economical influence on everyone else, you quite simply need a capitalistic government. If you are poor and are struggling to stay alive, or perhaps money is of lesser to none interest, you are certainly best of with a communistic government that aims to treat everybody as equals (at least you'll have no more trouble "economically" than your neighbour).

In the end I'd say the idea of communism is superior to capitalism, except for lack of inspiration; if working harder will yield no benefit to you (except perhaps having a good conscience), then why work harder? A blend of the two systems, as with most systems that consist of extremes, seems the best option for today's society, in my opinion. Everyone complains about something, but few complain about everything.

 

[Tleno]

In the end I'd say the idea of communism is superior to capitalism, except for lack of inspiration; if working harder will yield no benefit to you (except perhaps having a good conscience), then why work harder? A blend of the two systems, as with most systems that consist of extremes, seems the best option for today's society, in my opinion. Everyone complains about something, but few complain about everything.

Agree, both systems have pros and cons so it would be best to combine their pros together.

 

[Disasterpiece512]

Ever been to Hungary?

We have a "democratic" establishment which consists of thousands of politicians doing nothing but swinging mud at each other and stealing tax money all day.

I mean it, thousands of billions somehow "disappeared" in the pockets of these fine supporters of ultimate democracy. <3

In that regard, having someone who supervises and crushes down on such bullshit is good.

Also. Ever seen reports of the Ukrainian parliament? Seen what the Greek government did?

Democracy sure has its flaws.

It's a fact: extreme regimes make supress people => it makes them unhappy and they want to BLAST BRAINS EVERYWHERE! AAAH! Democracy makes people feel TOO free and they do stupid stuff because "it's a free country". People got their ideologies really effed up. :/

 

[Zombie]

Watchman, actually.

In every great dictatorship the Earth ever had, the country's rulers always did their stuff with the illusion of being democratic/fulfilling the people's will/preserving freedom/whatever.

Roman Empire, Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, United States of America.

 

[Fussiler1]

I have learned that Communism was a very nice system, it's just that they couldn't do it right, which is a fail on the humans side. I like the system we have in Norway. We've taken the good from Capitalism and the good from Communism and merged it together.

Same.

Roman Empire

I'm pretty sure most people were happy with Roman occupation after a while..

 

[TheDivineBoss]

All systems are great on paper, but badly practised. Some tend to die out (communism) faster than others (capitalism). Religious systems generally fuck everything up range of 500 to 2000 years.

And go read 1984 and check if your history is actually yóúr history.


_{Some keywords: Roman Empire, Dark Ages, Communism, Capitalism, Corruption, EVVVIIILLLL, control, dictatorship.}

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

If you all think Socialism is evil, check out the ancient Incas, they had a similar system (planned economy) and weren't the bane of society (well with the Aztecs - which I believe were still around in this period - they didn't have to do much when it came to being despised).

Communism normally fails in practice as to regulate the economy, then someone has to be in charge of it - thus instead of destroying the idea of a "Owner" or coordinator, they just simplify it to a few coordinators running more things (thus counterproductive). Check out the Cultural Revolution in China if you want to see the whole no coordinators or upper class (except the dictator of course) in practice - China was in relative chaos until the army stepped in and returned order.

Depends on where you are in the US of what the schools try to teach you about certain subjects - like if you lived in Texas then you would definitely be brainwashed (there "America is the greatest country on Earth" is a valid point in an argument). I hear a lot of College professors in the US have Socialist beliefs.

 

[Disasterpiece512]

Seems to me that communists are the more honest bunch here. They rule under the false pretence of a democracy, but they admit they're communists, while democrats say they rule a democratic country, but it's just plain bullshit altogether, because they don't believe themselves in all the crap they say.

The thing is, none of the systems have ever been applied correctly. As I said before, totalitarism is too restricting and democracy is not restricting enough.

Well, all in all, you can't blame anyone here: the people or the leaders. The leaders screw up the regime, and the people just slander their decisions, but it's easy to criticise when you're not making decisions affecting a whole country.

Is it me, or am I just saying nonsense? :/

 

[Zombie]

Seems to me that communists are the more honest bunch here. They rule under the false pretence of a democracy, but they admit they're communists, while democrats say they rule a democratic country, but it's just plain bullshit altogether, because they don't believe themselves in all the crap they say.

*Facepalms.*

The communist dictatorships thus far had nothing to do with the concept of communism, save the symbols. Do you have any idea what Marxism/Leninism is?

Your point is moot.

 

[Disasterpiece512]

Yeah, I knew I was talking nonsense. :/ Anyway, I was actually refering to the communist dictatorships, not the concept. The concept is the root for all the dictatorships but they all stray badly in the end.

 

[Kwah]

Because an economic system that ignores human nature is totally useful.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Government always fails somehow

 

[Nitrious]

As a devoted communist nazi, I approve of your message.

Communist nazi? Nazis killed communists

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Communist nazi? Nazis killed communists

 

[Zombie]

Communist nazi? Nazis killed communists

Wow, that is constructive.

Even though I was just joking, here's some homework for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism

 

[Tleno]

Wow, that is constructive.

Even though I was just joking, here's some homework for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism

Well some communists like Lenin were cosmopolitic and believed that all nations are equal, while some others like Mao were more of nacionalism.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

people exaggerate and oppose the government on the internet to look cool, just bloody live with it.

 

[Fussiler1]

people exaggerate and oppose the government on the internet to look cool, just bloody live with it.

This.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

people exaggerate and oppose the government on the internet to look cool, just bloody live with it.

Well I would say the internet is the closest thing to anarchy as Government has minimal control over it and where it does try and get control, it has trouble keeping it.

And if you don't like government (not saying I'm an anarchist) then why live with it? You should be able to oppose/rally/etc. etc. as much as you want, doesn't mean your going to succeed but you can at least say you tried - if you do succeed then you never would have been able to if you just "lived with it."

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Well I would say the internet is the closest thing to anarchy as Government has minimal control over it and where it does try and get control, it has trouble keeping it.

And if you don't like government (not saying I'm an anarchist) then why live with it? You should be able to oppose/rally/etc. etc. as much as you want, doesn't mean your going to succeed but you can at least say you tried - if you do succeed then you never would have been able to if you just "lived with it."

or I could not oppose them and enjoy my free health care and student loans, living my perfectly content life. spoiled rebel wannabees, the lot of you.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

or I could not oppose them and enjoy my free health care and student loans, living my perfectly content life.

I never said I'm an anarchist. But not everyone's fairing off as well as you - some countries really suck to be in, and some governments are really inefficient/corrupt. If people "just lived" with everything thats unjust then progress would never happen.

 

[Disasterpiece512]

Politics are crap in the end. In my country the president wants to take 25% of the salary from all budget workers. People lose as much as 200 euros PER MONTH. Why? Because our country ows a lot of money because of the economical crysis. That's capitalism for you.

 

[Zombie]

Politics are crap in the end. In my country the president wants to take 25% of the salary from all budget workers. People lose as much as 200 euros PER MONTH. Why? Because our country ows a lot of money because of the economical crysis. That's capitalism for you.

Lucky.

The income tax has always been 30% here. I bet my ass we also earn less than you do.

 

[HINDYhat]

people exaggerate and oppose the government on the internet to look cool, just bloody live with it.

Right, except it's not only on the Internet. People everywhere think that the government is evil, and yeah it seems to be a trend.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Politics are crap in the end. In my country the president wants to take 25% of the salary from all budget workers. People lose as much as 200 euros PER MONTH. Why? Because our country ows a lot of money because of the economical crysis. That's capitalism for you.

25% tax? Mimimi.. that's not particularly high, what are you used to? Is €800 all you earn a month? Before any taxes, fees and bills or after? You'd be left with less than €200 for food, clothes and entertainment around here, if you live cheap (I live cheap: €400 a month for rent, electricity and internet - 17sqm apartment). On top of that, we've got 30% taxes, average. Yet do you see me complaining about that? No, I think it's perfectly fair. What lacks is a system that doesn't let the rich people get away with no taxes because they take their wages out as a bonus. In the end though, it's not the size of the tax, but rather how the government uses it which is problematic. We pay a fee every year to keep our roads drivable, are they? I beg to differ. At least we've got "free" health care.

 

[Disasterpiece512]

Tax? Who said anything about tax? They're effectively reducing the salary WHILE STILL TAKING THE PREVIOUS TAXES. They're not taking from the tax payers salaries to give to the state. They just give less money. Taxes have always been 30% here too. So now if you earn X you only earn 30/100*(25/100*x).

Plus, in my country, the state's money is used anything BUT correctly. Our entry into the EU was delayed by about 4 years because some smart ass politicians took from the money the EU gave to us to rebuild our country to their standards. What was left? Barely enough to build an office building. Also, using the "state's money", our govt has been trying to build a highway for over TEN YEARS and have only finished 40 km of it OUT OF FREAKIN' 280 KM. Besides, 1 euro is worth 43.5 lei (our coin). The production prices for most things produced in our country is calculated in euro, but the selling price is calculated in lei, which means we actually pay more for something that's worth less because the economical crysis. Inflation is rampant. And what do they do to fix it? Take EVEN MORE money from the tax payers. Fair? I think not.

Not to mention, company owners and govt officials aren't getting that 25% deduction from their salary.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Tax? Who said anything about tax? They're effectively reducing the salary WHILE STILL TAKING THE PREVIOUS TAXES. They're not taking from the tax payers salaries to give to the state. They just give less money. Taxes have always been 30% here too. So now if you earn X you only earn 30/100*(25/100*x).

As far as I can tell, that's neither the money the government takes, nor that of which you are paid. 30% of 25% of your wages. If I understand the system correctly, you earn X - (X - (X*0.25))*0.30.

Either way, it's quite unfair to blame capitalism for taking away money capitalism has already given you. If it weren't for capitalism, you probably wouldn't have money in the first place.

 

[Disasterpiece512]

I'm blaming our incompetent govt. We have less money to pay our taxes. Because of this, prices will blast through the roof. Economy is VERY unstable currently. This will only destabilize it further.

Cthulhu for president!

 

[Megafyr]

Capitalism ftw. Though I think a collective system with taxes is necesarry to care for those who can't take care of themselves. Also, healthcare should be included. *Points at the US*