[Defense / Survival] Getting opinions - Which one is the best Item Drop System

[Barbafire]

Hello all hivers! I'd like to ask for you, opinions about Item Drop System. Specifically, for a Zombie Survival Map. Let me explain more below:

While my another project Outerworld Arena is reaching it's completion (although there is still a lot of work ahead), I'm already working on my next project, making decisions for it. The project now, is a Zombie Survival Map, with the same idea as Resident Evil Survivor. Basic Core Loop is the same as the mentioned map:

• Explore;
• Loot;
• Create a Base (Barricade yourself or choose a place to leave looted items);
• Survive;

At the end of this post I'll leave a video of the current prototype of the project, created using an "Arcade Mode" template (Probably a gamemode available?) besides the original "Survival Mode". With this in mind, I have some proposals about how items should be found/dropped in this map.

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1st Idea - Global Drop

Speaking about NOTD Aftermath, Undead Assault or even Resident Evil Snow, all items are dropped on the ground. When the respawn timer ends, they are dropped all over the ground, and that's it.

Pros:

• You just need to walk around to find loot;
• Loot can spawn right at your feet;
• Easy to see what item is dropped near you, since items have colors and models to easily identify them in this project;

Cons:

- Items can overwhelm the ground, poluting the terrain and even messing with the attack-move order, making you attack or shot accidentally;

==========

2nd Idea - Global Loot Boxes

It is the same idea as the 1st one. The difference in it, is that loot is presented in "Loot Boxes", chests, and so on. Theses boxes use a Custom Loot Table, and when you get near enough, they automatically drop all items, using the custom table. So, for example, if you reach a box and it randomly chooses the "Gunshop List", it'll drop only weapons and ammo.

Pros:

• From average to a great amount of items in the same spot;
• You'll search less for the items you want, since they'll not be dropped everywhere, like the previous idea;

Cons:

• Less availability, forcing you to explore the map, and consequently putting you in danger;
• When dropped, items will be glued in each other, and sometimes, forces the player to pick and drop items to reach the desired one.

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3rd Idea - Random Generated Loot Places

This project will not have things that simulate the interior of a building, so, everything happens outside. By using some (a lot) of regions, we can define where there'll be loot, and where not. Also, we can define which regions from the total regions will have lot, using a random system. Same as the 2nd idea, a loot box will be generated, and when near, the loot will be shown.

Pros:

• Easy to find loot places, after some gameplays;
• We can define specific places for loot, instead of random generation;

Cons:

• Without random factor, experienced players will know where there is loot, making gameplay repetitive;
• Players can build up base on one or more loot regions, so they can take advantage on loot respawn;

==========

So, now I ask you: In your opinion, which is the best Drop System? If you have another one in mind and want to share, I'll be grateful.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ThompZon]

One suggestion to handle the "con" of the 1st method is to have a "itemChecking" region (define the size however big feels good), and when you are about to place an item, move that region to that spot and count items in region. If it is less or equal to some value (could be 0, could be 4), only then spawn item there, otherwise retry another spot. Keep in mind to that you need to stop after a certain amount of tries (if the ground is full of items, or you'll risk an infinite loop causing a crash). You could also check if there are no player units within certain distance etc. depending on how you want it to go.

It's also possible to do a mix. Certain "high risk" areas could use method 2 or 3.

 

[Barbafire]

It's also possible to do a mix. Certain "high risk" areas could use method 2 or 3.

The first idea is to have three different “places”:

• Forest area (Spawn area for enemies and “special” drops)
• Farm area (Wide open area, less loot, less dangerouness)
• City area (More loot, troublesome layout, enemies can trap players)

Special drops are “rare” items that can only be found on “air drops” and “bunker” item type table.

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Hmmmmmm… a checking trigger to determine how many items are on the ground. Didn’t think about this one.

To properly think about this, I must define a balance for items, since I’m using a durability system for them. Less items with high durability, or more items with less durability (in any way, they can be stacked, but there is a limit for it).

 

[ThompZon]

It's not very hard to do either:

• CheckItems
  • Events
    • Time - Every 1.00 seconds of game time
  • Conditions
  • Actions
    • Set t_loc1 = (Position of Peasant 0002 <gen>)
    • Set itemCount = 0
    • Region - Center Region 000 <gen> on t_loc1
    • Item - Pick every item in Region 000 <gen> and do (Actions)
      • Loop - Actions
        • Set itemCount = (itemCount + 1)
    • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
      • If - Conditions
        • itemCount Equal to 0
      • Then - Actions
        • Item - Create Tome of Experience at t_loc1
      • Else - Actions
    • Custom script: call RemoveLocation(udg_t_loc1)

This will spawn a book if there are no items near the Peasant.

I think it's good to encourage exploration so one cannot camp in their secure base. Imo you need to throw challenges at the player without it feeling BS. Too low durability will feel pretty BS, but too high and the requirement to explore is lower, I guess.

It's fun to find items, so I guess it's a good idea with different "rarities" of spawned items too (that might change over time, so "higher tier" don't spawn at start, but will spawn after a while, when you're all more likely to have "common" items you need).

 

[Barbafire]

The trigger itself is not hard.

I think it's good to encourage exploration so one cannot camp in their secure base. Imo you need to throw challenges at the player without it feeling BS. Too low durability will feel pretty BS, but too high and the requirement to explore is lower, I guess.

I agree. I'm trying to find out a good balance for it: High durability and low ammo, or 50/50... Anyway, this is a math issue xd. Since SMGs and Automatic Rifles have 0 cooldown, they can break really fast while shooting a big target. This is a balance issue, for later.

It's fun to find items, so I guess it's a good idea with different "rarities" of spawned items too (that might change over time, so "higher tier" don't spawn at start, but will spawn after a while, when you're all more likely to have "common" items you need).

First idea is to divide the game in 3 parts of 15 minutes each:

• First 15 minutes - Rank 1 items
• 15 to 30 minutes - Rank 2 items
• 30 to end game - Rank 3 items

The difference between the ranks in weapons, besides their skin, is their stats. More base durability, damage, attack speed if not an automatic weapon, that sort of thing (A sheet is a god tool in these moments xD). For example, for SMGs, first idea is to have an UMP for rank 1, a MP5 for rank 2, and a P90 for Rank 3. All three use the same ammo, but speaking in stats, they are slightly better. The drops will just update to the next rank, instead of removing old items and etc. Special drops, instead of improving, gives more options, since they are created using a fictional Rank 4 rule for weapons.

• 8 types of Guns (24 if count ranks)
• 5 types of Melee Weapons (15 if count ranks)
• 12 Special Weapons

It can look painful to track all these things, but it isn't if they are planned =). In my opinion, this is more than enough to instigate players with the standard question "What's next?".

 

[ThompZon]

Sounds like a good general design

I think higher durability and lower ammo makes more sense than the other way around, so 35/65 ? My thinking is: You feel that you get to keep your weapon, but need to keep getting more ammo against "infinite horde of zombies". Your weapon break down slowly, but ammo and is the real issue. And if you get a better weapon, it doesn't instantly break down (typical feels bad moment).

Another way of differentiating weapons can be that some spawn a bullet that hits first target in its path instead of "good old war3 basic attack", optionally with spread, damage modifiers or multiple bullets (for shotgun).
Depending on how many "priority targets" there are, such weapons have the weakness that it can't target specific priority target that is behind a mass of regular enemies (because they hit first target in bullet's path).

Edit: I might have swayed away from original topic, because this all sounds pretty fun

 

[Barbafire]

Depending on how many "priority targets" there are, such weapons have the weakness that it can't target specific priority target that is behind a mass of regular enemies (because they hit first target in bullet's path).

In the other post I've made, Fleck spoke about this mechanic. Using a damage detection system, and shockwave as dummy. I didn't stop and check this out, I really don't know if it is easy to do or not, if it matches the project idea... that sort of thing. But it is something that is listed to check.

Besides that, currently, all weapons have an attack modifier:

• Knives, Spears, Bows, pistols, revolvers and SMGs have critical strike;
• Axes and Shotguns have splash (not a minor splash, a decent one, a bit fictional xd);
• Hammers and Bats have bash;
• Semi-Automatic Rifles, Automatic Rifles and Sniper Rifles have Piercing (Sniper pierce for example can reach about 400 range if I'm right);
• Some specials have Corruption (armor reduction), Bouncing Attack, and some improvised explosives;

The general idea is to not make a realistic survival, is to dive in fantasy a bit (that's why we have some peculiar melee weapons). Also, I'm trying to make a scenario where there aren't a lot of military resources, like explosives, high end weapons, air strikes, that sort of thing. An average sized city, with its farms, weapons because every city needs it... Things a bit more calm than a real war.

Edit: I might have swayed away from original topic, because this all sounds pretty fun

There is no problem haha, any idea is welcomed. We never know everything, and is good to check shared content.

 

[ThompZon]

Using a damage detection system, and shockwave as dummy

Personally I use damage detection system (Damage Engine 5.A.0.0 But it's also possible to use natives directly), yes, then I use Relativistic Missiles [vJASS][LUA][GUI] for projectiles.
ALICE 2.8.5 (Missiles, Physics & More) works if you use lua, but I've never used it because my "main map" is old and it's what I mostly "focus on" when it comes to WC3.

The general idea is to not make a realistic survival, is to dive in fantasy a bit (that's why we have some peculiar melee weapons). Also, I'm trying to make a scenario where there aren't a lot of military resources, like explosives, high end weapons, air strikes, that sort of thing. An average sized city, with its farms, weapons because every city needs it... Things a bit more calm than a real war.

Sound good. Imo it's good to prioritize fun/cool rather than theme/realism in most cases, but it all ties together of course.

If you want to checkout weapons I've made it's on:

Spoiler: My map

I have a few weapons in my "main map" (https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads/the-defence-of-the-castle.324524/ -> Master Chief -> [Q] Weapon Roulette-ability. If you rename your local user to "WorldEditDev", there are a few pre-placed units to the right side of the map that you can test around with).

 

[Barbafire]

Personally I use damage detection system (Damage Engine 5.A.0.0 But it's also possible to use natives directly), yes, then I use Relativistic Missiles [vJASS][LUA][GUI] for projectiles.
ALICE 2.8.5 (Missiles, Physics & More) works if you use lua, but I've never used it because my "main map" is old and it's what I mostly "focus on" when it comes to WC3.

I went play your map before coming here to answer you. At a first impression, I'm noob xD. Sure, we need to know the game a bit before exploring it. I played Master Chief, to check the system you've mentioned, and beated the first boss. I had to close the game that time, but I think I could go further. The sound effects are pretty funny, I liked.

Sound good. Imo it's good to prioritize fun/cool rather than theme/realism in most cases, but it all ties together of course.

Well, we are sharing knowledge here, and I didn't even left the prototype to be played. Try it on your own. Resources are a bit overpowered due to "arcade", but it is still fun xd. Two hints:

• Sometimes, you can get lost while changing items with the backpack ability. Even if you don't have the right ammo in your inventory, the system also takes the backpack inventory as a valid source, so don't strange if you are shooting without ammo;
• The hero has the name "Carpenter", because I intend to give "professions" to heroes. They'll all work the same, but with different abilities, starting stats, that sort of thing. For now, it is just a visual thing;

 

[ThompZon]

I went play your map before coming here to answer you. At a first impression, I'm noob xD.

Hehe, don't worry. ~10 years on-and-off of development on 1 map have certainly improved it over time

Well, we are sharing knowledge here, and I didn't even left the prototype to be played. Try it on your own.

I tried it out.

First round I died from bleeding pretty fast, only found a few acorns that basically didn't do anything.
The 2nd round I died from Sun being too hot and couldn't figure it out. Tried to get more healing, but was hard to find enough.
3rd round and I figured it out a bit better. Got 124 score.

Seems like an interesting concept.
I think letting weapon durability be higher, and ammo be the more scarce resource would be an improvement.
When I found a weapon that I had ammo for, I looked after that ammo in order to keep going, found some more ammo and right then the weapon broke (Learning Bow).

Melee weapons are very risky right now and probably not worth using right now. If enemies has lower "Combat - Attack X - Range Motion Buffer" (maybe 125 or 150?) then it's possible attack then avoid enemy damage by careful movement making enemies that takes more than 1 hit (Hammer vs "regular Zombies") not feel as bad. With bleed being a risk, and enemies surviving 1 hit making their counter attacks impossible(?) to avoid, this makes melee "worthless" imo.

I understand the original question quite a bit better after playing this.

Final feedback is: with so much loot on the ground, you basically had to choose 1-2 weapons and try to find as much of that weapon/ammo as possible, because you cannot pick up that much. And with the equipped weapon taking 1 slot when switching, you basically only had 10 slots, and ammo don't "stack" across bags (I think), making you need to be careful about that too.

One idea is to use gold + lumber for durability + ammo for currently selected weapon. This of course comes with a few problems that needs solving (swapping weapons, breaking weapons, running out of ammo, picking up more ammo + weapon (durability)), but it would clear up some inventory space

Right now I feel that the main challenge is inventory management + seeing finding what you need on the cluttered ground xD

 

[Barbafire]

First round I died from bleeding pretty fast, only found a few acorns that basically didn't do anything.
The 2nd round I died from Sun being too hot and couldn't figure it out. Tried to get more healing, but was hard to find enough.
3rd round and I figured it out a bit better. Got 124 score.

Bleeding is the most dangerous de-buff, and can only be cured with Medkit. Bandages can cure only "Wounds". Medkits cure anything (Wounds, Bleeding and Infection).

The sun is a weather effect that will make you constantly lose health. It is quite simple to counter it (with bandage or food). The problem with it is the occasion it happens. Stacking Wound, Bleeding, Infection and Sun, you have (for now) -19 health per second. To end, you just need to survive, since the weather system is configured now to re-sort every dawn. And yes, It doesn't make sense a burning sun at 00:00 xD.

I think letting weapon durability be higher, and ammo be the more scarce resource would be an improvement.
When I found a weapon that I had ammo for, I looked after that ammo in order to keep going, found some more ammo and right then the weapon broke (Learning Bow).

I'm working on the idea, that you can stack found weapons, like an automatic "repair" ability. If you notice, you can pick weapons up to three times, and they stack. Every item can be stacked, but each classification of it has it own rules.

Melee weapons are very risky right now and probably not worth using right now. If enemies has lower "Combat - Attack X - Range Motion Buffer" (maybe 125 or 150?) then it's possible attack then avoid enemy damage by careful movement making enemies that takes more than 1 hit (Hammer vs "regular Zombies") not feel as bad. With bleed being a risk, and enemies surviving 1 hit making their counter attacks impossible(?) to avoid, this makes melee "worthless" imo.

I agree with you, melee combat for now is a scam. I didn't think about the range motion buffer, that yes, can solve part of my problem. I already increased a bit the "melee" attack range for weapons, so people can use them behind barricades without getting in danger. This mechanic works. Now, about melee weapons without barricades, it needs improvement.

Final feedback is: with so much loot on the ground, you basically had to choose 1-2 weapons and try to find as much of that weapon/ammo as possible, because you cannot pick up that much. And with the equipped weapon taking 1 slot when switching, you basically only had 10 slots, and ammo don't "stack" across bags (I think), making you need to be careful about that too.

I've made the backpack system leave the equipped weapon/ammo, because it caused malfunction, since the system checks if the attacking unit has weapon, durability and ammo to properly fire.

About ammo stacking, sometimes it stacks, sometimes no. When you switch bags, all items are dropped and picked up, to force them to stack. Sometimes, with equipped weapons, you keep trading the same kind of ammo from backpack to inventory, instead of stacking it. This is a leak that is fast solved by switching the bag again with the right weapon equipped. The system also locks the correct ammo type, so, if you have the weapons equipped, and the right ammo in the bag, you switch, and the ammo that came from the bag, gets locked in your inventory. Buuuuuuuuuuuut... It is still a leak.

One idea is to use gold + lumber for durability + ammo for currently selected weapon. This of course comes with a few problems that needs solving (swapping weapons, breaking weapons, running out of ammo, picking up more ammo + weapon (durability)), but it would clear up some inventory space

I've discarted this system, because this one worked better for me. Maybe I didn't understand well the gold+lumber, or I didn't make it work properly. Dev things xD.

Right now I feel that the main challenge is inventory management + seeing finding what you need on the cluttered ground xD

Well, when I test, I use the strategy: 2 locked slots for weapon and ammo, 6 slots for unequipped weapons/ammo, and 2 slots for supportive items. Works? Yes, but for a new player, this is an issue. Until the player gets how the backpack works, he can get frustrated, and we don't want this. I've made the "Unit" backpack as a locust, because I've found a leak that, you can switch bags, click on the backpack, and drop the items at it's feet. You can make an "Infinite Backpack", and just pick the items you want to use.

The cluttered ground hahaha! That's why I came with this topic. The original idea will not have this mess, since I'll insert the "survival" theme, but the prototype showed me that this can be an issue. The first counterpart that I've brought, is the color management. Personally speaking, I love to work with colors, and so, I separated "type of ammo" and "type of weapon" by the same color, so you can easily find it on the ground, instead of passing the mouse over it. You played with a bow, so you just need to search for the pink color, and after, see the kind of cage. One for weapon, one for ammo, and that's it. The more powerful weapons that I've said before, will follow the same path, since the ammo will be the same. White for sniper, Blue for Pistol, Red for SA, and so on.

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EDIT: Resident Evil Snow has the ground cluttered at maximum. It is a messy system, and you need to keep hovering your mouse over the items to check what they are.

Undead Assault II (One of my favorites maps btw), even on late game, doesn't have this issue. In my opinion, the only problem, is this "hovering mouse" thing. That's why I came with the color management.

About the Gold and Lumber, I intend to make something with it, maybe a kill counter, a currency to buy equipment from an errant vendor... but I don't know yet.