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Gaias Retaliation HD - going with the time

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With Legacy of the Void coming up and all WC3 models getting ported to Starcraft II, I feel it's time I give the game another chance...

So, what I'll do in the next weeks is checking out the SC2 editor again and see if it's fun for me. If it is, then I'll probably revive the project on another platform.

Please note that this isn't a final decision. It's a possibility that I'd like to explore.

If I feel like SC2 modding is no fun to me, I'll definitely continue with the original project, but for now, I want to try something new and see if I can get stuff done there and if the workflow is acceptable for me.


What SC2 offers me for Gaias Retaliation, is way more flexibility and possibilities that I could never realize in Warcraft III:
- saving and loading characters from the hard drive
- higher overall graphical fidelity
- intuitive and responsive fullscreen UIs and controls
- stronger interactions between abilities and game objects; possibilities to affect missiles, steal buffs, etc. without overly complex systems
- expanding the map import limits through external mods
- 3rd person controls that actually work in multiplayer
- the possibility to create and display actual attributes and side-stats like evasion, crit chance, etc. instead of simulating them through complicated mechanics


However, a remake of Gaias Retaliation in HD will come with a number of obvious drawbacks:
- redoing all content from scratch (note that this is also an opportunity to "clean" some rough edges and inconsistencies in the game design)
- an enormous lack of art assets at the beginning (as content trumphs visual fidelity, advanced stuff like model attachments, HD environment models and interchangable skins will not come until a much later point of the mapping process)
- lack of an established fanbase... as all maps in SC2, this map will have to gain popularity slowly, until it reaches the point of somewhat general awareness so that the game lobby fills faster




Overall, I have positive feelings that this will benefit the community. I think it's about time I go with the flow, seeing that it's harder and harder to find games in WC3 battlenet. Shifting over to SC2 will allow me to rethink some of the content and gameplay-decisions from the ground-up, making Gaias Retaliation HD an overall more enjoyable experience. Feel free to give me your suggestions on how to improve the general gameplay or what features you would like to have added/extended in a possible SC2 release.
 
I'm currently doing some research about how to approach this in the most efficient way. The idea is develope a minimum viable product in the shortest time possible, containing all of the core gameplay features with a minimum amount of content.

I'm also still doing some research about the limits of the data editor and wether it's viable to go full-script or full data with what I intend to do.


So, here's my roadmap for creating a minimum-viable-product build for Gaias:

Phase 1:
- one class for testing purposes (Squire)
- one ability for testing purposes (Heroic Strike)
- core combat mechanics (fortunately, point-based armor is the default in SC2) with dummy attributes, hit, miss and crit mechanics
- complete removal of the default UI, replaced by an MMO-style HUD with ability buttons, a health/mana bar and a minimap
- a demo creep with the same attributes as the heros

Phase 2:
- Simple hero selection menu
- second class (Cleric)
- Heal ability for testing purposes
- cast time mechanic with on-screen bar for the owned hero and overhead bars for other units
- experimenting with 3rd person camera and arrow-key controls (to see if I like it or not)

Phase 3:
- HUD-based 6-slot equipment and 5x6 bag inventory
- 1 demo item of each type (head, armor, right hand, left hand, ring, amulett, consumable)
- pick and drop mechanics

Phase 4:
- threat system mechanics
- creep respawn system

Phase 5:
- vendor system and a demo vendor
- quest mechanics and a demo killquest
- save & load mechanics


This is the point of minimum viable product and will be the time I will release a public demo for early feedback.
 
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I understand your decision and reasoning and I suppose it could be good for the gaias game itself in the long run it just seems a shame to stop working on the wc3 version when it's at the finish line of a marathon. D4 would have wrapped it up so nicely and so many are already invested in seeing it through. My thoughts personally.

I would also like to state that DOTA2 actually has a map editor now and it's supposed to be quite powerful. If your looking at possibilities to bringing gaias to a different pplatform I think you should at least test out a few and see what's best. Personally I think dota2 would be a more suitable place to bring gaias. For one thing map making is Brand new there and isn't even "officially" released and integrated with the game yet so it would give you time to get a jump start on it. Also dota2 is free and anyone can download the game. Sc2 is limited to people who play sc2 and let's be realistic as much as I love blizzard games I don't believe sc2 ever really took off that community is didying already before it began

Not to mention dota itself started as a wc3 map it just seems appropriate to bring other legendary wc3 maps to the hub of custom maps. Some great wc3 maps have already been ported over to DOTA2 (pudge wars, some famous TD's, Warlocks). I would LOVE to see the next custom map made into a real game (i.e. DOTA2) made from DOTA2 itself. It would be like the grand children of wc3
 
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I understand your decision and reasoning and I suppose it could be good for the gaias game itself in the long run it just seems a shame to stop working on the wc3 version when it's at the finish line of a marathon. D4 would have wrapped it up so nicely and so many are already invested in seeing it through. My thoughts personally.

I would also like to state that DOTA2 actually has a map editor now and it's supposed to be quite powerful. If your looking at possibilities to bringing gaias to a different pplatform I think you should at least test out a few and see what's best. Personally I think dota2 would be a more suitable place to bring gaias. For one thing map making is Brand new there and isn't even "officially" released and integrated with the game yet so it would give you time to get a jump start on it. Also dota2 is free and anyone can download the game. Sc2 is limited to people who play sc2 and let's be realistic as much as I love blizzard games I don't believe sc2 ever really took off that community is didying already before it began

Not to mention dota itself started as a wc3 map it just seems appropriate to bring other legendary wc3 maps to the hub of custom maps. Some great wc3 maps have already been ported over to DOTA2 (pudge wars, some famous TD's, Warlocks). I would LOVE to see the next custom map made into a real game (i.e. DOTA2) made from DOTA2 itself. It would be like the grand children of wc3
The issue I have with DOTA 2 is that ... I can't yet do any estimations about how the community will develope there. It could become big, it could become weak ... nobody knows. Also, the toolkit doesn't seem to be quite as powerful as the one for SC2.
On the pro side, there's a huge set of artistic tools included in the package of the DOTA 2 editor aswell (including a fully working model editor!), but on the con side, this also kind of restricts you when you try to get stuff "from the outside" working in your game.

The thing with SC2 is, that there's already example pieces of community projects out there that show what this thing is really capable of. We don't have that for DOTA 2 yet.
Also, considering DOTA 2 is free and the free-to-play market changes extremely fast, there is no real expectation of how long the game will actually live and be able to survive against LoL.
At least for SC2 we can be sure that there will be at least one more expansion before it's getting legacy.

But I'll read up on the DOTA 2 editor... let's see; doesn't hurt trying (EDIT: What hurts trying, however, are the horrible cartoon graphics :/ ).
 
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i can assure you, dota2 will have a great future. the player base just got doubled in the last year and is now at 11 000 000 players.

about the topic: right now i cannot imagine how it will look like in sc2, but if you have the time to remake everything and import it into a more efficient engine, why not?
 
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I think it should be noted the difference between a free to play and a play to win model for free games. Games that require you to buy characters or boosts etc even though they are 'free' typically don't have a long game life but true free games that are updated and have a good model like dota or team fortress 2 where the things you can buy won't effect game play will stick around for quite some time
 
I really tried to like DOTA 2 and the editor seems to be easy to understand aswell (unlike the SC2 editor), but I think the cartoony style kills it for me. At least with SC2 I don't have to worry about exchanging everything to get some HD style landscapes sooner or later. Just some trees and that's about it. The ground textures kick ass in SC2.
 
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I understand your decision and reasoning and I suppose it could be good for the gaias game itself in the long run it just seems a shame to stop working on the wc3 version when it's at the finish line of a marathon. D4 would have wrapped it up so nicely and so many are already invested in seeing it through. My thoughts personally.

+1 for this. Please finish d4 (or atleast the last town) before moving on. War3 version doesnt have to be complete but I feel it deserves to have its story finished.

I'm not even slightly interested in starcraft II but I will definitely buy the game just to play Gaias (seeing as that's the only reason I bought war3 anyway), if you decide to commit to a project over there. However, I doubt many will do the same, and I doubt many sc2 players would spend much time on an ORPG. Is there even an ORPG scene in sc2? I always assumed sc2 was a place for hardcore RTS gamers. If someone knows a popular, high quality ORPG mod for sc2: post a link. Seeing how much better ORPG mods can be made with sc2 editor rather than war3 will garner support for moving gaias to sc2.

P.S. Dota 2 is not going anywhere any time soon. The community and support for it are growing at an alarming rate. I'd certainly prefer a dota2 mod over sc2, especially with increased editing support being implemented, but sc2 does indeed look so much more detailed - more fitting for a high fantasy setting - and has a much more comprehensive editor from what I've read on dem interweb forums.
 

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Zwieb I can really see your point in this decision. While I agree with those who say that at least the next content area for the WC3 version should be released first, it is not hard to understand why you might skip on that. Being a single developer making a, frankly, massive RPG is enough work and it's not like adding "just one more area" is very motivating if you are bored with it.

To be honest, I feel that the SC2 custom maps scene has been quite dead until now. I mean many maps are made with cool systems and ideas, but, unlike in Warcraft 3, there is still a lack of really epic maps. This is what Gaias Retaliation can provide.

This is not to mention all the obvious improvements that come with the SC2 engine: Better UI responsiveness, better graphics, overall more smooth gameplay.
I would however like to add that I believe adding magician along with the cleric to phase 2 (and one spell, fireball or whatever), will be better for testing purposes (so we dont have too many of the same class if we want to test 3-5 people). The more we can test at a time the more bugs we will be able to find. This is provided that you mean for this demo to be public.

Finally, I'm not sure I like the idea of the "MMORPG UI bar". This has been seen in so many games at this point, so, if possible, try something a little more refreshing (all abilities in the lower middle for instance). Otherwise cool cool!


EDIT:
About suggestions for this new version. I believe you perfected the stat customization system with the talents of the latest versions of Gaias. My suggestions are in the below points:

1. The limit of spells should be increased however, as (as I've mentioned before) all classes have too few possibilities at any one time to truly say "I use this ability OVER this ability". This can be a limit increase to 10, 11 or even removing the limit entirely, leaving the most useful spells to the improvements of talents picked.

2. Another thing, which in combination with the spell suggestion could use some more attention is the resistance system. The system it self is interesting but was never very polished in Gaias Retaliation. Yes, some units used spells (Firelord, water elemental/murloc caster etc.) which could on paper be "countered" by resistances. The problem was that except with the FR gear against Firelord, there was never really an option to use resistance gear. My suggestion is to make resistances important throughout the game. Maybe not at lvl 1-5, but early on introduce spiders which spit acid (poison damage) and lobsters that use water spell (water damage) or whatever. This will introduce a new meaning to "best items" as not only will a class have to decide whether to be more tanky, dpsy, mana/hp heavy and so on, but also how to counter certain enemies' attack types (read resistance based). This system can, hopefully, make a seemingly "average" resistance item be better than an otherwise better item in certain situations.

3.This leads me to the 3rd and final (for now) suggestion: The threat/aggro system. In combination with point 1 and 2 players now have more options to counter enemies (more spells mean more survival abilities or, at least, the player's choice to pick such abilities). Therefore I believe a similar aggro system to what we have seen on Crab and Zibnix bosses should be implemented for all standard enemies. What I refer to here is the way that those bosses put gaping wounds on a target which isn't their main target. Now this doesn't mean that all units shall have gaping wounds, but instead that all units shall have some kind of "2nd target abilities". These abilities can be anything from DoT spells, debuffs or even spells that deal instant damage. This makes survivability through resistances and survival spells all the more important even for the glass cannon classes. Also it ensures that tank and spank will never exist in its pure, horribly zombie-like form. Instead every player will be focused in even trash fights and not only the tank and healer.
Let me give you an example:
Squire, Cleric and Magician attacks a spider. The squire quickly gets aggro and the cleric heals well. The spider rushes to the magician (still has squire as main target) to use "poisonous fang" which deals X amount of nature damage over time. Luckily the magician has nature resistance which reduces this damage seriously allowing the magician to fend the spell off without lifting much of a finger (perhaps a healing spell is in order). Now the spider does the same thing to the cleric who has no resistances. He takes serious amounts of damage, but uses his "cure" spell to remove the DoT. This works, but as the cure spell costs mana and cast time, it may not be as efficient as the magician's resistance gear. This is the dilemma for the players, and it ensures that not only tanks need resistance gear.
 
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i have only 1 issue with this. do we need to buy sc2? or do we just need a blizzard battlenet account and its free like hearthstone. (that would be a good reason to finally fix my battlenet account)
 
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i have only 1 issue with this. do we need to buy sc2? or do we just need a blizzard battlenet account and its free like hearthstone. (that would be a good reason to finally fix my battlenet account)


starcraft 2 is not a free game and unlike wc3 there is no lan play in sc2 and you are required to play online (on blizzards servers)so torrenting wouldn't really work well either (i'm sure there is SOME way to get it free and working. This is the internet). You would need to own sc2 to play this new gaias version if zwiebel goes through with it.
 
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Come to Dota we have cookies.

The community is quite small at the moment but I assure you that it will increase enormously during the course of this year.

I can see the art style being an issue for a project such as this one, but it would still be mindblowing and in my honest opinion, quite more successful to do the port in a game which has been steadily increasing its playerbase.
 
For research, I played a couple of Arcade games yesterday and ... yeah, I understand your concerns about SC2 as a platform.

First: Blizzard Arcade, the platform which hosts the custom games is free. So that's not really an issue. However, after browsing the RPG section of Blizzard Arcade, I noticed three things which bugged me:
1) The overall quality of RPG maps was low; in fact, I only played one RPG that satisfied me in it's overall level of expertize put into it.
2) There were only two fantasy-themed RPG maps, one of which was a Diablo port, which was quite interesting to play and see what possibilities SC2 offers (this thing had unique UI that looked like the D2 UI and had a unique control scheme with random map generation) and the other was really bad ... both used WoW models, which obviously are not suited for top-down perspective (and thus looked horrible).
3) The game lobbies even of the RPGs in the "popular" section were empty. I played almost all the games alone. I had less trouble finding people in WC3 even today than I had to find people playing RPGs in SC2.

This... is both an opportunity and a turn-off. Again, LotV is coming soon, so we will eventually have a big push in popularity again, but then again, it seems that RPGs are not popular in SC2. I'm not sure why this is; is it because there is no epic project or don't we have epic projects because nobody is interested?

Gaias Retaliation for SC2 would have the potential to become big in record time. After all, there is almost no real competition in SC2's RPG section, especially not in a fantasy setting. Also, Gaias Retaliation might be known in SC2's userbase (as lots of WC3 players went there).
DOTA 2, however, offers a much higher player base and the opportunity to be there right from the start. OtoH, the Galaxy Editor is a known evil; one that has been tackled and tutorial'ed already. The DOTA 2 workshop tools are still mysterious with no real projects to reference.

I was sold on SC2 before I started playing in the Arcade section yesterday; the lack of players there was alarming. Now I'm not sure anymore if I'd much rather embrace the newishness of DOTA 2 and go with the flow of MOBA popularity. But I definitely hate the ground textures and cartoony doodads.


one question, from where do you want to get attachment models and stuff like that? do you want to make them yourself?
I found some nice (and already rigged) free basic body models on the web (without animations, but I had a lot of fun making animations in 3ds max in the past and both DOTA 2 and SC2 offer tools to convert models to the platform standard). I'll go with the interchangable texture approach I successfully applied to Gaias again, to make it as easy as painting an image when making a new armor.
Weapons will probably be imported from WoW, WC3 or from free online libraries.

-------------------------------------

To add to the gameplay discussion, there's some things I've learned from Gaias in WC3 that I will definitely be wary of in a remake:

1) crafting sucks if it's not an integral part of gameplay; as the porting platforms allow saving data on HD so I'm not limited to savecodes anymore, I have the opportunity to make crafting a lot more refined and interesting. I'm currently experimenting with the idea to make armors crafted only and allow the player the opportunity to define the stats of items via crafting resources. In order not to remove the "dropped item" feel, all other items will still be mob drops (including weapons and accessories).

2) Having a stat-point system sucks; no matter how much you try to balance out things, there will always be cookie-cutter builds that are clearly superior. There is literally no reason to have something like that.

3) Hero customization and looks are an important element of making an RPG game fun. Even if it contributes nothing to the core gameplay, I think part of the success of Gaias were the item attachments; ... and I will try to improve on that on a new platform. Maybe we will even have non-gender-locked classes.

4) A talent system with incomparables is fun. This is definitely a keeper.

5) Designing all core game systems for maximum modularity is key. I've learned a lot about programming over the past 5 years and will use that knowledge to give a potential new platform release easy expandability. I definitely don't want to be in the situation again where I want to add a new hero class, but then realize everything is hardcoded to the 5/10 possible heroes already

6) Mercs are fun! This feature will definitely stay and may even be expanded.

7) Four is the magic number for dungeon exploration.

8) Make early game quests more tied to the story.

9) Make is easier to port data between maps; if possible, externalize everything (this is a huge PRO argument for SC2, as it allows you to pack up scripts and objects into modules).

10) Don't implement a second resource if you don't have sinks for the first one. I will definitely always keep the word "Gold sink" in mind when making new content.



EDIT:

HOLY SHIT! ... I just saw that the DOTA 2 map editor allows you to edit and texture the terrain mesh itself, instead of just brushing the terrain ground. This means I can create unique looking dungeons with stonewalls, stalagmites, cave walls, bridges, etc. in freeform without being restricted to imported models. OMFG! Alright guys, I'm sold for this feature alone. I will definitely make this for DOTA 2. Idfc about the ground textures anymore if I get this feature instead. Jesus fucking christ this is like a dream come true!

https://developer.valvesoftware.com...evel_Design/Basic_Construction/Mesh_Editing_4
 
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For what its worth, after looking at some Dota2 screenshots of the gameplay and everything, I think the graphics look fine in it really. I understand your cartoony worries, but I don't think it necessarily looks bad!

Edit: Yeah I think Gaias may lose a bit of the "skyrim feel" that your excellent terraining in Wc3 achieved due to the cartoony nature of Dota2. However I think given the expansive map and everything being relatable, gaias will look beautiful in Dota2 as well. Especially with the vastly improved character model potential its very much worth the change.

Also it works out better for those of us who don't want to buy Sc2, as I believe we'll have free access to this on Dota2?

Also curious about the new crafting system... Would it be possible for the crafting system to be used to buff/enchant armor? Instead of crafting a complete armor, we could use crafting to imbue and enhance stats on armors depending on the gems/materials we find from bossing?

ALSO.. Would you be against scaling stats by like 10? Currently low game everything gives like +1 to things. If it were to give +10, you could split up and diversify stats by quite a bit. +5 dmg and +5 agility instead of +10 damage if things are increased by a factor of 10 is more interested than just giving +1 dmg or +1 agi. Though I understand if this is not wanted to be done as numbers would end up getting somewhat big, but I don't think it'd get to the point of being unreadable. I don't think many people pay attention to the actual physical numbers on screen, and just know to heal when the health bar turns yellow or red for example.
 
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You don't have to buy SC2 to play custom maps, so that point is moot.

Personally I'd prefer SC2, because dota2 has patches every 5 seconds and I simply can't keep up with them.
Although I also understand that SC2 took the bad parts of object editor and applied them to everything.
 
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I will definitely make this for DOTA 2. Idfc about the ground textures anymore if I get this feature instead. Jesus fucking christ this is like a dream come true!

This is great news, I'm hyped!

Let us know if you need help with anything, I'm mostly a programmer and rarely a designer but drop by the #dota2mods IRC if you have questions about the editor there's many people that has been modding Dota2 for months and willing to help :)

There aren't really any mapping tutorials but I think you might enjoy invalidnick's youtube channel videos on the work he made for the CoRE map on the Steam Workshop.
 
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maybe 6th class a well? As long as there are auto-attacks with like 9 ability slots (I like 9 it works well) I think it will be fine switching over to DOTA2
 
Ive been reading up on dota 2 editing the whole day and so far everything looks pretty straightforward. The only thing that is a little harder to do is editing the UI as its based on flash.

also the scripting is not as powerful as in sc2. Theres some stuff that is harder to do like writing systems... but i think i can do it. The tools and the terrain editor make up for the less powerful scripting language.
 
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What would writing systems include, you mean like doing custom stats, or the Equipment/Attachment/Crafting systems?

I have no SC2 experience but in D2 any of those are doable without much trouble, the biggest effort comes from doing the Flash Scaleform UI to make it pretty, there are some WIP maps on the workshop that already implement custom inventory and I was doing work for the crafting system of TBR a couple of months ago, flash<->lua communication is quite flexible in that sense

maybe 6th class a well? As long as there are auto-attacks with like 9 ability slots (I like 9 it works well) I think it will be fine switching over to DOTA2

By default the max ability layout in Dota is 6, but there is someone working on providing a whole 12~16 spell slot UI, there's also some other options others are playing around like a click-to-select spell UI
 
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HOLY SHIT! ... I just saw that the DOTA 2 map editor allows you to edit and texture the terrain mesh itself, instead of just brushing the terrain ground. This means I can create unique looking dungeons with stonewalls, stalagmites, cave walls, bridges, etc. in freeform without being restricted to imported models. OMFG! Alright guys, I'm sold for this feature alone. I will definitely make this for DOTA 2. Idfc about the ground textures anymore if I get this feature instead. Jesus fucking christ this is like a dream come true!

https://developer.valvesoftware.com...evel_Design/Basic_Construction/Mesh_Editing_4


SO this is just amaizing news, at least for me, i´ve never liked the SC2 stile, but having gaias remake from 0 is just... epic! is a great chance for the game to increase in community, even more! to refine everything that needs to be refined, this is an amaizing idea, i really really love it on DOTA2, amaizing!
 
Took a dive into the DOTA 2 editor now and ... wow, everything is way more complicated than it should be. *sigh*

It's basicly an editor that lets you build a DOTA-style map... making anything else is a pain in the ass. I really wonder how anyone could think this is easier to understand than Galaxy...

EDIT: There's also a lot of missing implementations... for example, there is no bank-based saving, only a way to transmit data to the game server (at least that's the description of a script I found at the internet), which might or might not be usable as a way to save characters inbetween different games.
All in all, this is very discouraging. I thought the toolset would be more pragmatic than the Galaxy Editor, but it isn't. It's just different, way more code-based than Galaxy. And more "hacky". Not sure if I like that. Feels like a step backwards. ...
 
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When there is freedom and means, the process of evolution is inevitable.
Three good RPG maps from Warcraft have moved to other platforms. Tkok, Profligacy and now Gaias. Maybe there are more maps but im not aware of.
A year ago the developers of Profligacy stated that they are going to develop the map on Dota2 platform. Dunno what they do now since they havent post any news.
Zwieb, i can give you a link to contact them if u want.

EDIT!
I earned two RED DRAGON-BALLZZ ! daaammnn! they look so cool ! :ccool::ccool:
 
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There's also a lot of missing implementations... for example, there is no bank-based saving, only a way to transmit data to the game server (at least that's the description of a script I found at the internet), which might or might not be usable as a way to save characters inbetween different games.

There's flash to save/load data online, basically what the whole getdotastats site is about, the stats-rpg lib or locally SaveKVFile in actionscript are some possible ways of doing that.

And yeah Alphas are hacky
 
There's flash to save/load data online, basically what the whole getdotastats site is about, the stats-rpg lib or locally SaveKVFile in actionscript are some possible ways of doing that.

And yeah Alphas are hacky
Yeah I've found that... still, I was not so happy when I found out all the dota-related hardcoded stuff in the editor. I feel like the editor is great for making a MOBA game... Arenas, hero defenses, etc. ... but it's simply not as powerful as galaxy in terms of freedom to create something else. I know that this is an alpha and there are a lot of features yet to be added, but this is extremely off-putting.
If I wanted an editor that requires workarounds for a lot of stuff, I could just stay in WC3. ;)

I don't feel like using an incomplete editor - I did that for years in WC3. I want to invest time again into learning hacks and workarounds... I want to create content, not bother with implementations.

So, sorry guys, I know you wanted this to be on DOTA 2 (as it is a free game and the community is larger), but I don't want to work with a limited editor again. I was extremely hyped for the Mesh editor, but not at this cost. Looks like the project will still go to Galaxy (for now).

... man, this is so frustrating overall.

http://www.google.de/trends/explore#q=starcraft 2 --> 3% of it's initial relevance
http://www.google.de/trends/explore#q=Warcraft 3 --> 10% of it's initial relevance

It looks like the WC3 player base is almost larger than that of SC2...


Btw, Gaias has had a pretty stable life since it was first released in 2010:
http://www.google.de/trends/explore#q=Gaias Retaliation
... with the obvious peaks whenever a major update released... I'm not sure what to think anymore. Part of me wishes to stay in WC3 now that I have seen what the alternatives look like. In fact, I don't think I can get a hypothetical SC2 or DOTA 2 version alive enough to make it worth it...

There's nowhere to go. WC3 modding is (un)dead, SC2 modding is dead, DOTA 2 modding will never be alive. It's just an overall bad age for modding communities.
 
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You can always go with RPG Maker.

In any case, seems to me like you don't want to put in the time to create new mechanics. Don't get me wrong - Dota2 workshop tools have a lot of limitations. Poor handling of a larger number of entities, limit to 1 map that is not exactly suitable for large ORPGs, some additional workarounds that are needed for implementing specific mechanics - are first that come to mind.

The vibe I'm getting from your post is directly mentioned in this quote:
I don't feel like using an incomplete editor - I did that for years in WC3. I [dont] want to invest time again into learning hacks and workarounds... I want to create content, not bother with implementations.

If Dota2 custom games are going to work, valve needs to do a shitton of upgrades. However, if content is your priority, go with RPG Maker or something similar (perhaps an RPG-focused engine?). Regardless, you're facing another problem that you pointed out yourself - community. SC2 custom games are crap at best regarding the player base. WC3 playerbase is obviously in decline for a long time now. Dota2 custom games currently stand somewhere around http://getdotastats.com/#d2mods__lobby_graph . That is a community made lobby and a bunch of people are unaware as of yet, but as you can see the situation is both improving over time and perhaps if volvo releases a good lobby system of their own even more players are going to partake in the custom games. Not to mention that the overall playerbase of dota2 is huge compared to SC2 and WC3, and the only thing better than that would probably be assimilating yourself in the LoL playerbase (not sure if there's an editor for that game, but you'd probably be facing similar problems) or releasing a separate game on its own, hoping for big success.

In any case, you're crying that a "moba" game has a "moba"-focused editor. Well, duh. Partner up with someone and let him take care of all the mechanics and you can focus on the content all you want. I'm afraid that whatever you choose (different engine, different game to mod) there's going to be mechanics that you need that are non-existant. You're probably aware but quality mods require a lot of work, as do quality games.
 
Don't get me wrong; I like the premise of the DOTA 2 editor so far... code-based content and creative freedom in terrain design, such as tools for implementing custom art assets. It just isn't "ready" yet for such an ambitious project. It feels like the editor still requires a lot of developement efforts before a real mapping community can develope. It requires a wizard for creating spells and units and built-in systems for storing data and creating simple UI elements. Before this happens, it's literally not going anywhere. I will be more than happy to jump right into it as soon as those issues get sorted out. But until then, it's just too risky of an investment. After all, chances are those features will never come.
 
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It just isn't "ready" yet for such an ambitious project.
Here's an ambitious project: https://github.com/MNoya/DotaCraft.
Yet it's going forward. How, you ask? Through will, love and dedication of the creator.

It feels like the editor still requires a lot of developement efforts before a real mapping community can develope. It requires a wizard for creating spells and units and built-in systems for storing data and creating simple UI elements.
I'm not sure I follow.

Wizard for creating spells and units = text editor. Perhaps it doesn't give you a boner because you don't immediately know what's doing what, but that's the beauty of it, you just simply learn as you go along. Community is working constantly on improving some stuff so maybe someone will make (if there already isn't one? dunno) a "wizard" for that .txt file. Other than that, there's an editor out (https://github.com/RoyAwesome/WorldSmith) but the project is discountined for now afaik untill there's someone to continue working on that. If you're really worried about the mapmaking community, perhaps invest your time into that?

Built-in systems for storing data will possibly come upon official source2 dota2 release along with the custom games, but even then there's a working community made cloud-system that Noya already mentioned, along with the local save.

Creating simple UI elements? Don't think it can get really simpler than 'draw in flash, boom'. Other than that, I'm continuously working on stuff to improve the default UI (https://github.com/zedor), there's a guy that's interested in doing rpg-stuff for the UI (quest API, NPC talk etc) so hopefully he'll manage something, a guy that is modifying his whole UI for his needs (https://gfycat.com/CelebratedPresentElephant), etc etc.. Most of the folk are putting their stuff on github and don't mind if you use something, as long as you give relevant credit.

Before this happens, it's literally not going anywhere. I will be more than happy to jump right into it as soon as those issues get sorted out. But until then, it's just too risky of an investment. After all, chances are those features will never come.
It's definitely going somewhere. You're weighting the investment risk based on the user friendliness instead of the actual possibilities of the editor. As I already said, s2 has it's flaws, and you should be pretty concerned about the map size for example instead of going "damn, there's no triggers!!".

In any case, it's your choice to make and I'm not defending dota2 tools, but I'm telling you that you're focusing on the wrong things. I seriously urge you to go with RPG Maker, it seems to me that it's the right fit.
 
This discussion is going in circles. You actually only confirmed my issues with the status quo in DOTA 2, namely that everything is still highly experimental and not user-friendly yet.
In other words, it's still not ready yet to support a larger mapping community. Even a (comparably) simple editor like the WC3 map editor requires a dedicated help section that is frequently used, along with dozens of tutorials to be accessable to the broad audience.

And while I'm more than willing to deal with all the problems for the benefit of some cool features I don't have now, I think it's better to just wait it out for now and see what happens.
 
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Fair enough. Please remember that "simple editor" along with "larger map community" implies dozens of shitmaps if taken from the wc3 context. Actually, the more "user-friendly" it is (more GUI, less code) the the more shitty the submissions are, on average.

In case you change your mind (or someone else reads this topic and is interested), there's a place for questions (https://moddota.com/forums/categories/development, #dota2modhelpdesk @ gamesurge IRC) and tutorials (https://moddota.com/forums/categories/tutorials), a subreddit (www.reddit.com/r/DotA2modding) and tons of stuff on github. Literally tons. All anyone needs is a working brain, a firm grasp of the english language and some dedication.

While pushing the bandwagon is definitely much harder than jumping on it, I can appreciate that it's not everyone's cup of tea. I just wouldn't like your comments ("highly experimental". u wot m8?) to dissuade anyone else that would possibly be interested in contributing to the slowly-growing scene. The rest of the folk that don't care about that can always jump in when the road is paved for their leisure, or rpg maker.
 
Fair enough. Please remember that "simple editor" along with "larger map community" implies dozens of shitmaps if taken from the wc3 context. Actually, the more "user-friendly" it is (more GUI, less code) the the more shitty the submissions are, on average.

In case you change your mind (or someone else reads this topic and is interested), there's a place for questions (https://moddota.com/forums/categories/development, #dota2modhelpdesk @ gamesurge IRC) and tutorials (https://moddota.com/forums/categories/tutorials), a subreddit (www.reddit.com/r/DotA2modding) and tons of stuff on github. Literally tons. All anyone needs is a working brain, a firm grasp of the english language and some dedication.

While pushing the bandwagon is definitely much harder than jumping on it, I can appreciate that it's not everyone's cup of tea. I just wouldn't like your comments ("highly experimental". u wot m8?) to dissuade anyone else that would possibly be interested in contributing to the slowly-growing scene. The rest of the folk that don't care about that can always jump in when the road is paved for their leisure, or rpg maker.
Okay, good point, I didn't want to decourage anyone from trying out the DOTA 2 tools, really. In fact, the more people jump over there, the more likely it is it will get more exposure and attention from valve (and thus, new features). It's just my personal oppinion that it's not "ready" yet for my purposes. I will keep an eye on it and maybe join the fun later, when it's out of alpha state.

I just don't agree with your comment about "user friendly = shit maps". Accessability and user friendliness is what made the WC3 mapping community survive for over a decade. Gems literally need shit to emerge from, otherwise nobody values them. Also, user friendly designs encourage people to build maps as a hobby and get better while at it. I can not even start to explain how much I learned over the last 5 years of mapping. Also, in a group of noobs, you will always find someone who excels in one regard or proves to have talent in a certain element. Those people are extremely valuable, as they make perfect project members. Maybe your shitty map was made by someone who lacks understanding of general game design, but otherwise is a perfect coder or a great terrainer? Get him on your ship and let him do what he can, while taking away those tasks that he can't shine on. Not everyone can excel in every field. Project leaders need to be good at everything, but usually can not do anything perfectly. This is where a huge crowd of "undiscovered talents" is valuable.

Also remember: mapping and modding is a hobby. Only in extremely rare cases people can do it professionally (like Icefrog and even that took him years before he saw any cash out of it). The only reward you will ever receive for your hard work is appreciation by the players. Over the years of modding I noticed that it's the hobby mapmakers and modders themselves that give the most valuable feedback on your game. You can't deny those. You need them. A community that only consists of professional or semi-professional projects will die sooner or later, as players need a constant stream of content or they will move somewhere else. The pile of mid and low quality maps are a great way to make sure a community remains interested in your game until the next chunk of high quality content comes out.
 
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http://www.dota2.com/reborn/part2/

The hype is real with source 2 releasing...you might want to check out the editor again, with hammer being completely different with the source 2 release, and reading comments from some of the current modders, alot more user-friendly, I hope you give it another chance on checking it out and see if it's more to your liking.

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/3a39v2/we_are_dota_2_modders_ask_us_anything_about_dota/

The Black Road is going to be rereleased on Dota ; http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comme..._2_modders_ask_us_anything_about_dota/cs8vlqw

Looks like save/load will be tied to Steam ID's which is really good.
 
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I think you should first take a look at the dota 2 editor which is being released soon in dota 2, it's just more powerful and doesn't have silly restrictions like the sc2 one.


it also allows you to use actual code in the map too, and probably in a later date make money off it.

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The lore of gaias is actually good enough to (if noticed) get official support from Valve.

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BTW do not install the editor right now as it is NOT updated, you need to wait until valve releases the beta later this week to have the updated one, also there's guys working on a friendly GUI for it too.
 
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I'm also strongly in favor of porting to DotA 2 instead of to sc2. If others have stated my arguments, just ignore them.

-DotA 2 and it's editor are guaranteed to be actively developed/improved for at least the next ~5 years. In 1-2 years making maps will be easier, maybe even with something like good old Object/Trigger/etc Editor as known from wc3.
-With DotA 2 you have masses of potential players and feedback, unlike sc2. It's rather safe to say Valve won't make the same mistakes sc2 did.
-The modders themself. Whereas the numbers are declining for sc2 (at least that's what you keep hearing) there will actually be a life community for DotA 2 in the next years.

The only reason I can think of right now which is in favor of porting to sc2 is the assets.. DotA 2 has also a lot but they are different from wc3/sc2 ofc. Also we know nothing about Valves policy of importing external assets to DotA 2, e.g. wc3 ones. It's likely that there will be problems in the future. I could imagine Valve banning all assets which you do not have permission of using..
 
The only reason I'm just saying you should relook at it is because the hammer you looked at is completely different from the hammer that's being released with source 2.
You see, that is actually part of the problem and has been my point right from the beginning:
You can't work with a toolset that is still subject to constant changes. And I'm sure this won't be the last thing they changed about it. In order to create an ambitious, long-term project, you need a certain continuity that ensures that all your work wasn't in vain when the new generation comes out.
 
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In order to create an ambitious, long-term project, you need a certain continuity that ensures that all your work wasn't in vain when the new generation comes out.
If you can wait half a year to a year until starting this, there should not be too many large changes in the future. Certainly it won't happen that large parts of your work are in vain.

Sure, there will be bug fixes, some API changes and other relatively small changes which will break things here and there. But if you have an ambitious project those things will most likely be only a small worry to you..


If you don't like the Workshop Tools even after the upcoming update that's totally reasonable but the argument that everything will change is not valid.
 
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