Fields of Ruin

[WolfFarkas]

Nice map, I was looking it: the amount of neutrals, the enviroment very nice, the loot (very good loot),
As it is and for the Hive I rate it with a 4/5 (I quit you 1 point because of some things that I will explain, also I will consider my final rate after reading others reviews or the mod reviews, I hardly rate 5/5 at once because I don´t like to overrate). I don´t review with this level of perfection in normal reviews, but since this is for a contest, I will do it so you consider improving your map (There still time)

1) The major thing the Mercenary camp

mercenary camp

mercenary camp again

2) Red creep expanding

red creep expanding

3) some creeps

somecreeps

4) sharp water

sharpwater

1) I think the mercenary camp is too near the base, this is the major thing, if I were you I would move it anywhere, change it for a creep or for the violet house that is useless for gameplay . If you are so in need to put a neutral near the base, put a tavern.

1,5) The creeps should be put at the front of the building with good distance to avoid, buy and run, doing a good block barrier in the building.

2) Expanding red creep goldmines: you have small space and very low wood. I see this expandings before, there tons of maps that puts a goldmine thinking, if a townhall enters is an ok base. As a standard base, I don´t advise you this layout.
If were the owner of this map, I will join the terrain and put 1 normal base, I think this can cost you points.
Also all mines having the same gold but with different guards maybe is not that good, some mods spot that.

3) I have to kill the green creeps golems to access the goldmine, I did that too when I had no other options, but I would never do that in a contest, I think all creeps should be optional (at least in standard melee thats is what we almost always see). I do not adivse weird positions in a contest. Also I think the creeps are too near each other, is like you don´t have much space but still you want to put things, I do not recommend that in a contest, a very nice space between creeps is like a standard to follow. Also to avoid multi camping, like camp 2 creeps to near in one row.
I sugest you to delete 1 green creep those that blocks the goldmines, since you have 10 green creeps, having 8, 4 per player 2 with permanent level 1 and 2 with power up level 1 is ok.

4) Sharp water, I nerver review sharp water, but there is a tutorial of sharp water, and for enviroment, can cost points. I think the water parts are sharply and no natural looking.
If you see the image with the green circle, the water can be soft with the rise tool.
I recommend you to work this areas and if it doesn´t look natural, put it all in the earth, water is not mandatory, but water that doesn´t look natural I do not recommend it.

Final conclusion
Is really nice map, I think there are things that should be improved to improve the chance of wining. There are a lot of good maps, the winner is going to win by one nose. So I sugest you to improve it, don´t fall behind, there still time to do fixing.

good luck in the contest, rating 4/5

 

[mafe]

Thanks for taking the time and the great feedback. Let me explain what I've been thinking about your points:
1) Yes, the Merc camp is very close to the main base. However, unlike on most other maps, the camp is in direct line to the enemy base, so if you creep it (with militia for example), you take the risk of a creepcheck. I did a comparison of walking distances: If you take one yellow grid box edge (the big ones that appear when pressing "G" for those who dont know) as one length unit, then if you compare the distance one different maps, you get the following results:
On EI, the creeper has to walk approx. 8 units to reach the camp, for the attacker it is ~21 units. Difference: 13.
On LR: Creeper 7, attacker 16, Difference 9.
On TM (cross position with both players close to the merc camps): Creeper 6, Attacker 15, Difference 9.
On my map: Creeper 4, Attacker 14, Difference 10.
So I think at first glance, I am somewhat in line with the standard maps. Of course, you reach the creep faster on my map, meaning that you can use the militia timer for longer, and peasants walking back take less time. Also the creeps on my map are weaker, which makes creeping even more attractive, and the process of finishing the camp is probably wuite a bit faster than on the other maps.

Regarding your suggestion of moving the camp, I dont want to put the camps too close together. Having a camp close to the base is a "fresh/unique" aspect of this map which I want to keep. So I think as a solution, I will make the creeps stronger, so that creeping that camp is a bigger risk at the start.

1,5) Unfortunately moving the creeps to the position you suggest will mean that the creeps will now attack "stupid" units that walk too close to the camp. But I will reconsider it in the process of redesigning the camp.

2) I think the design of the expansion is similar to LR or SV, but yes, there could be more trees. I will add some. I will also reconsider the gold amounts, good points.

3) I'm also not entirely sure here. You are right, the southwest of the map is kinda crowded. However, the creeps there become relevant at different stages in the progress of the game. I felt that without the camp, the whole SW of the map would be irrelevant for much of the earlygame. Also it is another point where I thought it might be something "new" to the map. I have to say I am a fan of having several small camps at different places on the map. This is a personal thing of course, but I think you can see that on any map to different extends.
In practive, I dont think it will be relevant that this camp "blockes" the red camp. It is such a small camp, players will either kill it in the early-/midgame, or by the time they creep the red camp, it will be killed in two seconds.
I tested the map with some other people yesterday, and while they were also surprised at first, they also though it could be a fun thing, in partcular as it is only a really small camp.

4) Thanks, already changed that. Will upload a new version later today.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Thanks for taking the time and the great feedback. Let me explain what I've been thinking about your points:
1) Yes, the Merc camp is very close to the main base. However, unlike on most other maps, the camp is in direct line to the enemy base, so if you creep it (with militia for example), you take the risk of a creepcheck. I did a comparison of walking distances: If you take one yellow grid box edge (the big ones that appear when pressing "G" for those who dont know) as one length unit, then if you compare the distance one different maps, you get the following results:
On EI, the creeper has to walk approx. 8 units to reach the camp, for the attacker it is ~21 units. Difference: 13.
On LR: Creeper 7, attacker 16, Difference 9.
On TM (cross position with both players close to the merc camps): Creeper 6, Attacker 15, Difference 9.
On my map: Creeper 4, Attacker 14, Difference 10.
So I think at first glance, I am somewhat in line with the standard maps. Of course, you reach the creep faster on my map, meaning that you can use the militia timer for longer, and peasants walking back take less time. Also the creeps on my map are weaker, which makes creeping even more attractive, and the process of finishing the camp is probably wuite a bit faster than on the other maps.

Regarding your suggestion of moving the camp, I dont want to put the camps too close together. Having a camp close to the base is a "fresh/unique" aspect of this map which I want to keep. So I think as a solution, I will make the creeps stronger, so that creeping that camp is a bigger risk at the start.

1,5) Unfortunately moving the creeps to the position you suggest will mean that the creeps will now attack "stupid" units that walk too close to the camp. But I will reconsider it in the process of redesigning the camp.

2) I think the design of the expansion is similar to LR or SV, but yes, there could be more trees. I will add some. I will also reconsider the gold amounts, good points.

3) I'm also not entirely sure here. You are right, the southwest of the map is kinda crowded. However, the creeps there become relevant at different stages in the progress of the game. I felt that without the camp, the whole SW of the map would be irrelevant for much of the earlygame. Also it is another point where I thought it might be something "new" to the map. I have to say I am a fan of having several small camps at different places on the map. This is a personal thing of course, but I think you can see that on any map to different extends.
In practive, I dont think it will be relevant that this camp "blockes" the red camp. It is such a small camp, players will either kill it in the early-/midgame, or by the time they creep the red camp, it will be killed in two seconds.
I tested the map with some other people yesterday, and while they were also surprised at first, they also though it could be a fun thing, in partcular as it is only a really small camp.

4) Thanks, already changed that. Will upload a new version later today.

Your map, you are the boss,

1)what really is worrying me is the mercenary camp near the base, and I did not think it with the militia, also the wall of trees is very thin, you can put it down with some heroes ( blood elf mage and Cenarion type) and camp with a couple of towers.


In neutrals defended with creeps, I recommend put them with a dense wall of trees or against a cliff, peaople use cliff for that too.

I strongly sugest you to move it anywhere, also the thin wood is like base wood you can log it if you build the lumber mill / and other buildings similar for orc, human and undead.

Another sugestion is to put taverns near base and one mercenary camp where the taven is surrounded by some wood, It is better to have less things well placed than have more crowded.

2) and about the goldmines, maybe more gold so it will compesate the lack of wood.


this is my last try to convince you , do what you wish and good luck in the contest!!

 

[deepstrasz]

The minimap looks weird ingame mustard coloured for some reason.

1. At least make the first expansion have more wood by replacing the water with soil (maybe even a ramp to highland.
2. Well, two Merchant buildings, one in the northeast and one to the southwest guarded by different creatures. I'm not sure random neutral buildings works as a gameplay mechanic. However, random creeps might.
3. Night Elves could possibly build an Ancient of War near the merc camps guarded by the stronger gnolls which could result in faster XP gain but I don't think you could do much about that.

Approved.

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[mafe]

Thanks for approving the map, @deepstrasz . I think I have to make some clarifications with respect to what you were pointing out.

About the minimap color: This is a feature, not a bug. A tester complained that from the original minimap (where both the trees and the tiles are in similar shades of brown), it would not be possible to recognize what is forest and what is pathable terrain, so it navigating by minimap isnt as easily possible as on other maps. So I changed the minimap color of trees for clarity (technically, I made a new doodad that is all the same old tree with just a different minimap color). I picked this color because it seems still somewhat in line with the color scheme of the map, but provides a sufficient level of contrast. If you think there would be another better fitting color, or you have a reason why I should take the unmodified color, feel free to tell. I tried some variations of green and didnt like them.

I'm a bit unsure about your other comments. Maybe you accidentially confused something, or I am too stupid to understand.
1) I will look into that, but I think that there are at least as many trees there as near the expansions on TM, SV or TS. Are you suggesting I should place the expansions on highground? I'm not a fan of expansions on highground, imho there is the danger that this could give a too big advantage to the defender.
2) The different creeps at the shop in the SW and the random building in the NE (it is only sometimes a shop) are intentional. As these are "contested" buildings (i.e. they are equal distance to either base and there is only one of them), I think this rather adds something to the map in the same manner as on EI, the market and the shop are guarded by different creeps too. I made this map to hopefully find out if random buildings can work (Afaik there is only the fountain on GW which is random, but as a fountain has more important other issues). My hope is that a random building works, if any of the buildings that it could be make for a balanced and playable map.
3) I hope that both merc camps are guarded by exctly the same gnolls. At least that's how I wanted to make it. If you meant to say that AoWs can be placed more easily near one camp, then I will look into that.

 

[deepstrasz]

1) I will look into that, but I think that there are at least as many trees there as near the expansions on TM, SV or TS. Are you suggesting I should place the expansions on highground? I'm not a fan of expansions on highground, imho there is the danger that this could give a too big advantage to the defender.

Oh no. The high ground should be instead of the water parts where you could place trees on so the expansions (which are not on highland) would have more trees. Or better fuse the trees of the close expansions.
I'm saying I got two Merchant buildings in the same game.
About the Ancients of War, I meant that they could be used to exploit experience gain in early game. Again, it's not much you could do since turning those camps green would hurt the camp protection.

See image:

 

[mafe]

Oh no. The high ground should be instead of the water parts where you could place trees on so the expansions (which are not on highland) would have more trees. Or better fuse the trees of the close expansions.
I'm saying I got two Merchant buildings in the same game.
About the Ancients of War, I meant that they could be used to exploit experience gain in early game. Again, it's not much you could do since turning those camps green would hurt the camp protection.

See image:
View attachment 284899

Let's see if understood by judging if my answers make sense:
-red/pink parts:I have added a few more trees there and just slightly move the mine to accomodate this.
-Gold: I dont want to join the forest there for the following reason: I expect these mines will only be taken in later stage of the game, when to main gold mines have run out. By then, it is a realistic possibily that there will siege weapons in the game, so people might try to destroy these trees and get a very short path between these gold mines. However, I want to these goldmines to be somewhat protected so that the game can go on in a "usual" manner without too many shenanigans like siege weapon tree cutting. Basically, I was trying to imitate the highground expansions like on SV or LR, which ensure that the game goes on with income available. Yes, I wanted these mines to be closer than usual, but still not too close. I hope that makes sense.
-Greenish-Yellow: Yes there are two shops in different places if the random building happens to be a shop. It is nothing you see on other maps, but I thought "why not". As either building is "contested", neither player should have an advantage from it and it depends how you adapt. If there is only one shop then you have the competition for the heal scrolls, boots etc like on EI. If there are two shops, it is more like on other maps, but still something "fresh" as the shops are in diferent positions and one is guarded by nightactive creeps. Again, the key point is that no player has an advantage by default and it challenges players to think about how they adapt to these shops in different places.

 

[deepstrasz]

go on in a "usual" manner without too many shenanigans like siege weapon tree cutting

Then, right at the middle of the tree welding, you could place doodads so that no one can cross.

As either building is "contested", neither player should have an advantage from it and it depends how you adapt.

What if you make both random as that would increase chances of the buildings not being the same.

 

[mafe]

About the doodads, it could work. Will think about it, but I'm just a fan of water. Might not look as good as a well-designed doodad area, but for a melee maps it should be ok.

You cant have a competitive map without a shop, and I like the dynamics with a single shop like on EI. Also I didnt exaggerate with randomness. I thought one random bulding is enough given that at the moment, we dont have any random buildings on the standard maps.