Dying Arena: Discussion

[Apheraz Lucent]

You probably heard about this topic: either in the random forum, either on the chat. The problem is very persistent and real: nearly every contest that enters the Arena also has a delivered, built-in package with a note: Contest's dead already. There are very few contest which manage to beat up this statement, and live enough to acquire several entries. Most of these contests are the Texturing and Modeling contests. Story contests, Campaign contest and Cinematic contest are nearly always doomed: even if the community shows a lot of interest for a specific contest, it just... fades away with time.

My question is: what can we do to somehow motivate the entire community in keeping the contests alive? I must admit that, even when I find the one contest I like very much, I somehow drop out of it. It happens to everyone, so I guess it's just lack of... um, feelings towards the contest. The ones that are creating these contests (including myself), we generate the top ideas which are always interesting, and yet, we fail.

Is the Arena dying? How to revive it? Discuss.

 

[Vengeancekael]

Ah yes, Pharaoh_ did bring this up, although in my opinion, while it can be a concern, it's not really that dramatic yet.

As you can see, the activity in the arena has increased quite a lot, I think the average number of viewers was around 20, now it's above 50. While that doesn't necessarily increase the amount of entries for specific contests, notifications really do help, especially when they're posted on time.

However as far as warcraft focused contests, like mapping ones go, it's slowly fading away and much can't be done to fully revive that area of modding.
So I would suggest that contest themes no longer stick to specific details, but rather wider (hurr) themes, like just "Defense", which, I'm not trying to boasting here, but the 2 contests that I hosted with the simple theme "Defense" brought in quite a lot of entries, while some of them weren't that great, some of them were still astonishing.

So right now, I'd say Warcraft 3 is fading away quite rapidly and Starcraft 2 will be the one game (hopefully) to overtake it in the Arena, the notifications system has helped that in restoring the Arena quite a bit and I'm sure the next expansion of SCII, which is supposed to contain a lot of new features for the editor, will prove to revive the section as well.

So my suggestion would be to just host contests with really simple themes. Kobas also had an interesting idea, maybe he'll post it here.

 

[fladdermasken]

So my suggestion would be to just host contests with really simple themes.

If by simple you mean "broad" like you seem to describe here

themes no longer stick to specific details, but rather wider (hurr) themes, like just "Defense"

then I vote nay. Themes are applied to foster some kind of "think out of the box" mentality. If people can tie just about anything they damn please to the short number of syllables used in the description, then there's really no point in having one in the first place. That's what we call a double-edged sword. I even bet the handle will be all worn-out and greasy.

If you mean straightforward and tangible, I could get behind that.

notifications really do help, especially when they're posted on time.

This.
...

>.<

 

[Vengeancekael]

then I vote nay. Themes are applied to foster some kind of "think out of the box" mentality. If people can tie just about anything they damn please to the short number of syllables used in the description, then there's really no point in having one in the first place. That's what we call a double-edged sword. I even bet the handle will be all worn-out and greasy.

Now I didn't mean that broad

If you mean straightforward and tangible, I could get behind that.

yes derp herp

Also enjoy's doing the notifications now, so they should be posted more regularly.

 

[Chaosy]

personly i dont care about the arena since i know that even if i put down every free minute i got on a project it would not even be on the top 30

 

[Aeroblyctos]

Just make themes so open that every type of creators can join.

 

[Wraithling]

Also, make some of them shorter. Several of those month-long (read: 5 weeks) contests could be chopped down into two weeks, and using with a broader theme like Mr. Kael suggested.

Also, better planning and reduce its frequency. For instance, a contest planned for late March (4 weeks from now) should be immediately announced NOW, to give interested parties enough room to plan accordingly.

PS: And I voted 'critical state', because that's how I felt. A mere two years ago under Pyritie, the arena was still robust with activity and competition. We just have to move on with the times a little - smaller contests, shorter length, and longer planning.

 

[fladdermasken]

Just make themes so open that every type of creators can join.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...

Ironic how this is the most narrow point of attack you could ever wring out. Literally the entire point of these contests is to tailor an entry to fit the theme you're handed. Take away that and it's just several pages' worth of shit, and some guy walking out of there with 45 or so more rep to show for himself.

But yeah --screw looking at this rationally for once-- let's just pry things so open we could pull an even bigger lump of unwarranted ideas out our asses.

personly i dont care about the arena since i know that even if i put down every free minute i got on a project it would not even be on the top 30

So you're saying the flaw lies in the competition? Hell, what are you people even here for?

DISCLAIMER:
The Hive Workshop does not allow you to cash out your contest winnings. The Hive Workshop's reputation system ™ only reflects your standing in the community, or your habit of abusing it thereof, and should by no means be considered viable currency or "refundable".

a contest planned for late March (4 weeks from now) should be immediately announced NOW, to give interested parties enough room to plan accordingly.

Think that's means to reduce violation of this.

Your submission may not be started/made before the official launch of the contest.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

personly i dont care about the arena since i know that even if i put down every free minute i got on a project it would not even be on the top 30

But if there are three entries, you'll place third.

Anyway, why is it so important what ranking you get in the end? The thrill is in participating and challenging yourself to make something better than your average. The losers are those who, with no other reason than lack of confidence, do not participate.

Just make themes so open that every type of creators can join.

We have that contest already. The resource sections.

Also, make some of them shorter. Several of those month-long (read: 5 weeks) contests could be chopped down into two weeks, and using with a broader theme like Mr. Kael suggested.

Although this is mostly true, the length of contests is largely to accommodate planning and people generally being busy with their lives. You don't need a month to make a piece of concept art itself, but to find the time and inspiration to do so could take a month (and often much more).

Also, better planning and reduce its frequency. For instance, a contest planned for late March (4 weeks from now) should be immediately announced NOW, to give interested parties enough room to plan accordingly.

Reduced frequency, though a viable option to build up more anticipation, would make huge gaps where there's nothing going on in any given field. Personally, I'd rather increase the frequency. I try to host a Texturing Contest every two months, leaving a month's gap for judging and voting. This gives people that planning time you mention as much needed. However, as of right now, the Texturing Contest is not moving further due lack of judges, which frankly is a much more serious problem than participation at the moment.

---

Of course, I belong to the art side of the contests, and we're doing fairly well participation-wise. However, the issue on our side is lack of judges. The last few Texturing Contests have all had delayed results because of struggling to find judges and judges without time to judge as soon as we'd like to. I've had to forfeit my own entry twice to do judging myself, for example. The Concept Art Contest before the current one took several months to judge. Thing is it's not the judges' fault, not at all. They're all doing this voluntarily and for nothing in return, so expecting them to do our biding immediately, perfectly and efficiently is way more than we have the rights to. We just need more judges, and possibly judging to be easier/less work.

 

[Rui]

(...)

notifications really do help, especially when they're posted on time.

This.
...

>.<

...
I made a notice for all contests I was told about. If they don't make it there it's because nobody told me.

(...)
Also, better planning and reduce its frequency. For instance, a contest planned for late March (4 weeks from now) should be immediately announced NOW, to give interested parties enough room to plan accordingly.
(...)

In spite of the don't-start-before-contest-launch rule, I too agree that this would be better. For one, I usually take a lot of time to figure out how I'm going to do whatever I've been asked to do. Also, in case nobody has noticed, I have occasionally pointed to discussions going on regarding contests.
Frequency is also something I've criticized in the past. I see contests launching their next edition as soon as the previous one has finished. Wouldn't it be better to wait at least a few weeks? To my knowledge, we're currently the only truly active WarCraft III website, so it's not like we're going to lose a bunch of people because we gave a few weeks interval between two editions of a series of contests.

(...)
So you're saying the flaw lies in the competition? Hell, what are you people even here for?
(...)

No, that is not what he meant. He's saying he won't do good enough, it's a point shiiK's replied to.

 

[fladdermasken]

I made a notice for all contests I was told about. If they don't make it there it's because nobody told me.

I pretty much asked enjoy to "tend to the contest announcements"-- lo and behold, notices are up. Given a total of 9, count 9, active threads in the arena, do you really need explicit instructions on which threads to thumb? You took the job, Rui. I don't think it's asking for much that you poke about the arena on a weekly basis.

No, that is not what he meant. He's saying he won't do good enough, it's a point shiiK's replied to.

We're saying the exact same thing, shiiK just put a bit more effort into embellishing it.

Reason I didn't is because I don't feel like it needs to be dignified with a proper response unless you want to make it a segue to a point you were going to raise anyhow.

 

[Vengeancekael]

...
I made a notice for all contests I was told about. If they don't make it there it's because nobody told me.

Funny that, I don't remember you checking the Awards Notification thread for at least a month.

Unless you're actually asking us to private message you and not post in the thread specifically made for that job. :S
Until now I've only seen enjoy do something about them correctly, you just drop by posting random things in the notifications area.

 

[Rui]

What's with the sarcasm? Also... you're welcome. -_-

fladdermasken, I don't do that because I don't know what stances the contests are in. Additionally, I didn't take that job.
...I was going to leave just that over there but for the sake of closing that branch right now, I'm going to explain that Pyritie was still here when we all were promoted.

As a side note, the stuff you addressed as «random things» are, most of them, actually related to (the purposes of) our website. Even if they aren't, it helps get people involved on other things. On top of that, my notices have actually succeeded in getting the community integrated on what's going on. "Public Arranged Games" was a (good) thread with little to no activity and now, on average, it gets a post daily; it's just one of the latest examples.
Just because Pyritie started using notices to announce events going on in the Arena doesn't mean we have to make an everlasting tradition out of it, so I leave a plea here for everyone to stop playing that card: not only have people who don't care about the Arena always abstained from complaining, but also the it's-always-been-that-way-so-it-should-stay-that-way argument is flawed and stupid -- and it's getting tiresome.

All of this is off-topic; please resume the initial subject.

 

[fladdermasken]

I might just give this a mention while I'm at it.

When Pyritie went down the drain, any consistency the arena had got dragged along with him. Best way to uphold consistency is to let one single person man the wrench-- run everything on his/her own terms if you will. Sure, you'd need to find someone who could handle being active and reliable. What I'm proposing is this.

• Assign an existing admin to mandate this, and make it his/her highest priority. Joe and Pharaoh_ can keep on moderating the arena and deal with irregularities;
  stuff that doesn't require higher permissions.
  
  
• Promote Joe or Pharaoh_ to man the duties described above.

All of this is off-topic; please resume the initial subject.

No it isn't. It's a tangent.
The purpose of the thread is:

My question is: what can we do to somehow motivate the entire community in keeping the contests alive?

<snip>

Is the Arena dying? How to revive it? Discuss.

Kael raised the issue about the notifications. You responded. I didn't share your outlook, so I rebutted. We are now discussing.

I don't do that because I don't know what stances the contests are in.

Flip through a page or two, I'm pretty sure you're competent enough to tell a live thread from a dead one.

Additionally, I didn't take that job.

<snip>

I'm going to explain that Pyritie was still here when we all were promoted.

Then why did you respond to this?

This.
...

>.<

...
I made a notice for all contests I was told about. If they don't make it there it's because nobody told me.

Far as I recall, after Pyritie resigned, Archian set out to help put the notices up. When he went on another hiatus, you said you'd pick up what he started.

not only have people who don't care about the Arena always abstained from complaining

If they don't care about it, why would they complain?

Just because Pyritie started using notices to announce events going on in the Arena doesn't mean we have to make an everlasting tradition out of it.

It's not a tradition, it's a utility. It serves a purpose.
Like described here actually:

my notices have actually succeeded in getting the community integrated on what's going on. "Public Arranged Games" was a (good) thread with little to no activity and now, on average, it gets a post daily

If you can think of something to replace it with, by all means, indulge us.

the it's-always-been-that-way-so-it-should-stay-that-way argument is flawed and stupid

Since we're spitting things up, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Also on the list:
the "shit-I-can't-come-up-with-a-decent-excuse-so-I'll-just-overdose-on-dashes-and-hope-people-won't-pick-up-on-it" argument.

Really, don't be a wretch and try to pass this off as a liberal courtesy. You didn't omit the notices to educate us on our conservative ways. You either forgot, fell asleep on the job, or you were lazy enough not to bother in the first place.

 

[Rui]

All of this is off-topic; please resume the initial subject.

No it isn't. It's a tangent.
(...)

...What we use our notices for is not related, but if you think so, whatever.

I don't do that because I don't know what stances the contests are in.

Flip through a page or two, I'm pretty sure you're competent enough to tell a live thread from a dead one.

...The problem is not the thread being alive or dead, it's knowing whether or not a notice has been issued already.

Additionally, I didn't take that job.

<snip>

I'm going to explain that Pyritie was still here when we all were promoted.

Then why did you respond to this?

I fail to see how the question is connected to the quote. Regardless, the reason I posted was because, first, my(?) work was brought into question and, second, I'm still a user of the website and I wanted to share thoughts. As of late, I've noticed it's uncommon when you're not trying to be the coolest cat in the house, but bear with me.

Far as I recall, after Pyritie resigned, Archian set out to help put the notices up. When he went on another hiatus, you said you'd pick up what he started.

No, sorry. I remember imagining that most of the responsibility would fall on me as the other admins don't seem too inclined to do it, but, at most, I said I could post a few. Nonetheless, the Arena makes 0% of my activity, so I certainly did not take, fully and/or officially, pledge of it. P.S. -- Especially to prevent people from using me as the expiatory goat, which is exactly what's happening, directly or indirectly. That is related to a similar issue which, after reading that last paragraph, I may have to add to my signature or something.

not only have people who don't care about the Arena always abstained from complaining

If they don't care about it, why would they complain?

Well, ask them, not me. It's a good question.

the it's-always-been-that-way-so-it-should-stay-that-way argument is flawed and stupid

Since we're spitting things up, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Also on the list:
the "shit-I-can't-come-up-with-a-decent-excuse-so-I'll-just-overdose-on-dashes-and-hope-people-won't-pick-up-on-it" argument.

Really, don't be a wretch and try to pass this off as a liberal courtesy. You didn't omit the notices to educate us on our conservative ways. You either forgot, fell asleep on the job, or you were lazy enough not to bother in the first place.

Only it wasn't not broke.

...First, for lack of patience, I will just advertise one more and final time about referring to it as my job. Second, at least ask someone... «reliable» for a record of my work around here before accusing me to "fall asleep on it". Third, for your information the dash trick is an acceptable method in writing. P.S. -- Fourth, sorry, the idiotic twist of others' words is an old and outdated trick. I gave my reasons and if you don't like them there should be an exit button on the top right of your window.
Quit being obnoxious, and that's sweetest appropriate term I could find, about things you don't know about.

 

[Red]

...I'm gonna just step right on over the big sausage-fest of an argument on page 1, and throw my two cents in.

Since I joined in 2008, I've seen general interest in contests rise and fall, so I'm not really worried. A lot of drama queens like to sensationalize this imaginary 'death' of wc3 modding. Honestly, it's really just a bunch of crap. If you're still interested in contests, don't let any nonsense bother you - rock out with your cock out.

That being said, the main improvement that needs to be made, in my opinion, is to speed the entire contest process up significantly.
For example, a texturing contest should go thusly:

-1 week to pool and critique theme ideas in an informal thread that is flagged as a site notice.

The contest submission thread can be pretty obscure to some people, beat them over the head with the fact that their input is valuable.​

-1 week to decide a contest theme in an official poll that is flagged as a site notice.

Put EVERYTHING that was mentioned in the previous week's thread in here and allow for multiple votes.​

-3 weeks for the actual contest to run.

A texturing contest, for which these timeframes are an example for, should not run for an entire month. It doesn't take 5 weeks to make a wc3 texture, and even though you may miss the contest, this rapid cycle ensures that you won't have to wait long for another contest to roll around.​

-1 week for voting and judging. At this time, the discussion thread for the next contest opens.

The current judging time is just pitiful. If your judge takes more than a few days to start judging, then get a new judge.​

With this system, the arena becomes a fast-paced and fun place to compete. If you don't like the theme, you don't have to wait 3 months for the judges to get off their asses and finish off the current theme.

Other things I'd suggest:

-Dedicated judges, appointed in the same fashion as moderators.

-Allow for recycling of old contest themes.

-A whole separate bulletin board on the front page for updates on each type of contest (Modeling, Texturing, Hero, etc.)

 

[Wazzz]

i tried advertising the techtree contest when the polls were up, but i was told off for it

unfortunately it was relatively unknown as it wasn't really advertised in any other way

perhaps if we had snazzier advertisements the contests would get more ratings

other than that, it's about the same as it ever was, with the same users being recycled throughout each contest and some new users stepping in from time to time

 

[Apheraz Lucent]

Another thing to discuss: judges.

Hosts and Arena Moderators were never able to tighten their neck to finish everything on time. I remember times when I saw judging results day after the pool started, and two months after the contest ended. Which is ridiculous. I already suggested some deadlines, but... Damn.

 

[Wazzz]

this is a modding community, a hobby site, if you will

unfortunately many of the older members in charge who would have had more free time once upon a time to prioritise judging for a non-profit contest purely for the entertainment of other fellow hobbiests now have jobs or studies eating up more into their time

also, most of us are pretty lazy

 

[Apheraz Lucent]

That doesn't means that contestants should wait several months to get judged for something that can be done in few hours, with quality.

And that other sentence just doesn't make any sense. I work two jobs, study, go out with friends, and I still have time to dance around the Hiveworkshop and do everything I tell that I will. But again, you got the point: people are generally lazy. That's why Garfield talks

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

according to the general public(or at least some members of it) this site has been "dying" for the last 3~4 years.

 

[Vengeancekael]

Dedicated judges, appointed in the same fashion as moderators.

Good idea, I myself am now always available for mapping contests

A whole separate bulletin board on the front page for updates on each type of contest (Modeling, Texturing, Hero, etc.)

Yeah, a HIVE 2 feature maybe

 

[Rui]

Thanks for bringing back the on-topic in advance.

Another thing that should be taken into consideration is that contests should have a deadline that is realistic or if even the contest itself is realistic. I'm not sure how often this happens, but right off my head is the Campaign Contest, which was supposed to last 1 or 2 months.
A book of WoS, at least the last one, took over a year to do. The entirety of the history took Razorclaw X's whole WarCraft III modding career to be finished.
Expecting a campaign to be done in that time period is fantasy. On the other hand, extending the deadline to a year will most likely result in people forgetting about it or losing inspiration. So neither the deadline or the contest itself are realistic, in my opinion.

 

[Arcisal]

Another thing that should be taken into consideration is that contests should have a deadline that is realistic or if even the contest itself is realistic. I'm not sure how often this happens, but right off my head is the Campaign Contest, which was supposed to last 1 or 2 months.

WoS was a masterpiece. I don't think contests were made to dish out masterpieces from users. Yes, a contest with too long a deadline will lead to abandonment of the contest in the first place, while too short of one will tunr up that there are no completed submissions. However, a contest is a contest. It's saying, make whatever you can, within your capabilities within this period of time. The period of time actually, makes a contest challenging. If contestants were expected to create one a campaign as good as WoS or The Chosen Ones, then it would be ridiculous. A contest, just means to create whatever you can to the best of your ability with a given amount of time. What judges should expect are short but enjoyable campaigns. Not a full-fledged epic saga. The submissions actually make those expectations and go beyond them are those that actually deserve to win, if there are any of course.

But again, yes. They have to be realistic. I personally, have no idea how to create a quality campaign so I'm in no position to actually be giving out suggestions. But like you said, too short a period of time would be too hectic, possibly even create a disadvantage for some contestants, while too long would lead to idleness and eventually the scrapping of the contest itself.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

-A whole separate bulletin board on the front page for updates on each type of contest (Modeling, Texturing, Hero, etc.)[/COLOR]

Yeah, a HIVE 2 feature maybe

This could actually be done today/right now. Vbadvanced supports additional portal pages, so they could add another link to the navbar entitled 'Competitions' which is fairly similar in layout to the home page but pulls threads from the competitions forums (or one of its sub ones).

 

[Wazzz]

have to admit, that would be a snazzy feature, although it would cause the notice board to be considerably less useful (not completely redundant, just less useful)

not that all the contests were put up there in the first place

after all, if people aren't informing rui about the status of their contests, what can we do with regards to advertising them?

besides, it's all about the advertisement
we have our regular contestees for each field and we get visitors that come and go within these contests, breaking into a new field or to the arena fullstop

noticeboard is perfect for advertisement, although it's easily ignored as it is

 

[Crayons]

no. there's nothing wrong with the arena.

people are just busy and have better things going on in life. the end.