Do people think the game looked better in 2018?

[Augustus]

I see this all over Reddit and the Bnet forums but I don't really understand this argument. I think Warcraft 3 is supposed to have vibrant colors and the 2018 version just looks so washed out and lifeless. I was so glad when I saw they made the graphics more colorful. About the only thing I liked in 2018 were the better shadows but shadows are very resource intensive and I am not sure if the performance tradeoff is worth it.

In fact, I remember very clearly when people were complaining that the game was not colorful enough, now it's the other way around.

What do you guys think? Does the game look better these days or not? I know many of you never really liked the Reforged version to begin with but objectively speaking, which version is better?

EDIT: I clicked post before adding a poll. Can a mod please add in a poll?

EDIT 2: Here is a good comparison photo

 

[Lizreu]

objectively speaking, which version is better?

You cannot ask for opinions and objectivity at the same time. This is a highly subjective matter at its core.

I don't really care about the vibrant or washed out colors one way or another. It's a relatively simple trick from a game engine perspective - color correction. I just wish they'd exposed a way for modders to change the default color correction. That way, we could have had maps look like the mappers wanted them to, each to their preference.

I do care about the shadows, though. You can see in-game that the shadows are still there. They didn't disable them entirely, they just heavily toned them down, which shouldn't have any bearing whatsoever on the performance. That was one of the things I hoped they left as is, because I really liked the new shadows.

One last point - one man's "vibrant and colourful" is another man's "irritating and eye-straining." In the same vein, one man's "washed out and lifeless" is another man's "gritty and atmospheric." You can argue all you want about which is better, but it ultimately boils down to preference. Warcraft III can honestly go both ways - it can be colourful and vibrant (which I, personally, never interpreted it as), but it can also be gritty and washed out. I think the narrative would benefit more from the latter, but that's obviously just my preference.

Now, there's an entirely different argument that vibrant colors are easier to distinguish between in melee, and so it helps with visually assessing the game field quickly. It's a purely gameplay thing.

 

[Augustus]

You cannot ask for opinions and objectivity at the same time. This is a highly subjective matter at its core.

I don't really care about the vibrant or washed out colors one way or another. It's a relatively simple trick from a game engine perspective - color correction. I just wish they'd exposed a way for modders to change the default color correction. That way, we could have had maps look like the mappers wanted them to, each to their preference.

I do care about the shadows, though. You can see in-game that the shadows are still there. They didn't disable them entirely, they just heavily toned them down, which shouldn't have any bearing whatsoever on the performance. That was one of the things I hoped they left as is, because I really liked the new shadows.

One last point - one man's "vibrant and colourful" is another man's "irritating and eye-straining." In the same vein, one man's "washed out and lifeless" is another man's "gritty and atmospheric." You can argue all you want about which is better, but it ultimately boils down to preference. Warcraft III can honestly go both ways - it can be colourful and vibrant (which I, personally, never interpreted it as), but it can also be gritty and washed out. I think the narrative would benefit more from the latter, but that's obviously just my preference.

Now, there's an entirely different argument that vibrant colors are easier to distinguish between in melee, and so it helps with visually assessing the game field quickly. It's a purely gameplay thing.

That's a great argument! I suppose I was asking which one is objectively better because the people on the other side of the argument speak as if their opinion is 100% objective. You're right it's about preference. Still, the colors are nowhere near as colorful as in a game like Fortnite or LOL. I think Reforged struck a pretty nice balance but that's just my opinion.

As for the shadows, they are usually very resource intensive, especially in games with lots of units and motion, aren't they? So perhaps they got them to work but realized the performance tradeoff was not worth it. Perhaps they tested the game in the Campaigns first, where the game is a lot less resource intensive but when they got to multiplayer (especially 4v4) they realized the shadows caused a significant performance decrease.

They don't bother me on the map itself BUT the portraits could REALLY use better lighting because they make the models look worse than they actually are. The lighting is pretty flat right now, as if the model is lit in a bathroom. So if giving shadows for 100 models is too intensive, perhaps they could at least bring them back for the portraits. The portraits in the Collection tab could be a good reference, especially the King Arthas skin.

 

[Lizreu]

They don't bother me on the map itself BUT the portraits could REALLY use better lighting because they make the models look worse than they actually are. The lighting is pretty flat right now, as if the model is lit in a bathroom. So if giving shadows for 100 models is too intensive, perhaps they could at least bring them back for the portraits. The portraits in the Collection tab could be a good reference, especially the King Arthas skin.

That is generally why different graphics options exist. I do believe that they just toned down the shadows because they stood out too much otherwise. If it was about performance, they could've left it in on a higher setting.

As for the lighting, yeah, it does look very flat. It's probably my biggest complaint when comparing to the 2018 footage.

Keep in mind though, that lighting/shading is quite different from shadows in real time graphics. One doesn't depend on the other and you can have good shading without good shadows. It's mostly a stylistic choice at that point.

 

[Shar Dundred]

^What mori said.

Another problem that I have with Reforged is that the models do not seem like they all fit together
very well, as if they had different art styles that do not "match" with each other.

 

[Augustus]

@mori

Then people would complain that the game is unoptimized when in fact it might be just a resource intensive option. I still think they should bring shadows back for portraits, maybe even add shadows for everything with a warning that they are resource intensive.

@Shar Dundred

Which models are you referring to? Models from the same faction? Or when you compare models from Orc and Undead for instance? I didn't get this impression.

There are things I don't like for sure, such as the Footman sword and the weird Paladin haircut but overall I really like it.

 

[OutsiderXE]

I think both are bad. The first one looks better. The second one looks more like WC3 but neither looks like a game made in 2018. More like 2006.
Detailed models are good but the terrain makes everything look bad. They should have made everything highly detailed or just made some adjustments - now it looks like nothing blends together.

 

[Augustus]

I think both are bad. The first one looks better. The second one looks more like WC3 but neither looks like a game made in 2018. More like 2006.
Detailed models are good but the terrain makes everything look bad. They should have made everything highly detailed or just made some adjustments - now it looks like nothing blends together.

I think most of the terrain is alright, except for Autumn. That one looks really bad.

You say that it doesn't look like a game made in 2019 but if that is true, I wonder how much of that is tied to the limitations of the engine.

 

[usfshihy]

Which models are you referring to? Models from the same faction? Or when you compare models from Orc and Undead for instance? I didn't get this impression.

I think some models like the wolves and the orc grunt has too much of a cartoony look compared to something like the Ogres and the quilboars, which look far more realistic.

 

[Duke]

It's like they couldn't decide whether they want to go cartoon or realistic so they ended up with weird uncanny valley mashup look

 

[Stefan.K]

 

[OutsiderXE]

Ive been very negative but the video doesnt look so bad. Certainly still not 2020 quality but textures look better. I wish I coul run the beta for more than 30s to check it out...

 

[Augustus]

It was never going to look like a state of the art 2020 game. It would necessitate a new engine and that is a trade I simply don't want for Warcraft 3. Too many things would break, not to mention the custom maps. Sure many custom maps with custom stuff are broken right now but I'm sure the mappers can fix those. If they ported WC3 to a new engine all that mapping history would be lost. If people want a Warcraft game on a 2020 engine then they should just make WC4 and we all know that's not happening.

I think the game looks as good as it can on the Warcraft 3 engine. I'm not talking about whether you like it or not but on an objective level (polygon count, texture resolution etc.). I think people overestimate the capability of this poor old engine.

Shadows are computationally very expensive, especially in games with lots of units and lots of motion. Even moreso when you try to add it on an old engine that wasn't supposed to support such a feature in the first place. Just look at the frame rate on the Blizzcon demo. Barely 60 in a campaign map! I don't even want to know how it would be in 4v4.

 

[Rahko]

I definitely think the 2018 Demo looked way, way better. The beta looks like everything was made from plastic and wax. It's just simply too unrealistic to my taste. These kind of colors fit games with graphics like OW or Fortnite. Not the Reforged models, which do look great for a Warcraft.

I clicked post before adding a poll. Can a mod please add in a poll?