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Diablo IV suggestions & comments

Discussion in 'Diablo' started by deepstrasz, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    My main concern is the game being a Diablo II reboot, mostly in terms of gameplay.

    Classes/Characters

    We know of the three classes which are basically 3 from Diablo II (+Lord of Destruction): the Sorceress, the Barbarian and the Druid.

    • They said the Druid doesn't have fire spells anymore which makes sense although fire is an element of nature as well as wind and whatnot.
    • If they decided so, then they should remove any such element manipulation and leave it to the Sorceress.
    • They could make the druid more like Warcraft's with healing, buffs, summons, morphs, damage spells coming from minions and metamorphosis as well as nature manipulation like say interacting with the earth, trees, so on. Rain could be something to consider, storms too but not as much or complex(?) as the Sorceress would handle.
    • When it comes to transformations, instead of rehashing Diablo II, they could be more creative, turn into a treant/ent (thanks @Augustus for the idea), even a raven/roc, flying temporarily from place to place (from highland/cliffs to lowland).
    • Maybe, the instant morph in and out is forced. That should happen with the druid only sketching the transformation as in having some sort of spiritual/astral projection form over the character as a sort of aura and leave actual metamorphoses to abilities and attacks that actually require full attention. The current idea in terms of gameplay might be good but in terms of realism it isn't.
    • Another thing they could do is mix classes. Since druids are related to barbarians, they could make it so that you become a barbarian or a druid depending on what choices you make in the skill/ability & talent/trait trees.
    • The same could be said about the Sorceress and Wizard. Maybe Wizards are more or less destructive or rely on various other elements the Sorceress may not.
    • Similarly with the Demon Hunter and Assassin. Demon Hunters could be the ranged versions and Assassins the melee ones.
    • Monks could fuse with Paladins/Crusaders or something, players would become one of those like with the druid-barbarian and the others mentioned above.
    • Amazons, well, tough, either integrate something like the Rogue or mix it with the Demon Hunter-Assassin class shift.
    • Witch Doctors could be easily melded with Necromancers, each having traits and skills related to their culture.
    • New classes are also welcome.
    Gameplay

    • Since the game will be an open world and morally gray choice based, what about angelic and demonic affiliation? Basically, players could fight for the bad or good side (or neutral/for themselves?), each of these parties giving various bonuses like more damage against demons or undead and/or enabling using of some special attributes on items, spells/skills, talents, rune words.
    • I'm really hoping they will keep a sort of Diablo III type ability switch option so that we won't need to start multiple characters on the same class to play with the other spells we didn't choose, except if they decide to make class combinations as mentioned above.
    • Drop the cliche and trailer music and put in some experimental orchestral, guitar whatnot music as Diablo has been having. New experimental genres/styles would be welcome.
    • More realism in attacks and movement. Suddenly ceasing a long melee weapon attack and immediately turning around running is too much. Diablo II got it better on this than Diablo but Diablo III turned characters into cartoon superheroes.
    • Since it's an ARPG, they could make stuff like with the Diablo III beta/alpha Siegebreaker Assault Beast biting hero's heads off (last port of video) if they don't quickly react to set themselves free.
    Story

    • Judging by the gameplay trailer and art we can see Duriel or (a creature like it?) making an appearance.
    • Please don't bring back dead characters. Don't use nostalgia knives and make this more a rehash than an original sequel.
    • No empty and persistent threats from enemies, especially main bad characters.
    • Properly told story through characters/NPC/villains and not by finding long lost kindergarten diaries.

    duriel.png
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Should be a similar monster, not the actual demon we butchered in Diablo II's Act II ... First picture source: video.
    The second image is from Blizzard Press Center - Diablo IV - BlizzCon 2019 Press Kit and the image contains the word Duriel :( Also the concept art from the same link called Duriel...

    Leoric might be back?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Hopefully not. We killed the character two times already. It's getting old, repetitive and lame. Source: link.

    • From the intro film (announcement), we can see Rathma (explanation why) and the three people to be sacrificed going to a church which probably is Inarius' Crystal Cathedral. Diablo's manual mentions the cathedral having mirrored glass but I guess that was changed since it also mentions Inarius having a face and eyelids when obviously since Diablo II angels don't even have a face or proper body.
    • We see that Rathma was hiding in sort of a dead man's body (the character also teleported somehow inside through the blocked gate; which brings the question how did the part thing they were going to get out?). Rathma hypnotizes the Zakarum priest into willingly giving blood (so much for mercy I guess; the priest cared about "Rathma") but the other two party members were forced to bleed, thus why did the ritual work?
    • Afterwards we see Lilith basically being reborn and possibly the villain needs time to mature since it looks a bit fleshless (heart being seen through the chest), breastless and covered with blood (and/or as if with amniotic fluid and placenta pieces) as opposed to the concept art.
    lilith.png
    [​IMG]
    Sources: video and Blizzard Press Center - Diablo IV - BlizzCon 2019 Press Kit

    I think the intro needs a bit of work on Rathma's echoed voice. It sounds too, artificial. It doesn't need echoing like that but more of some abyss reverb.
    • We also see glimpses of Inarius being chained somewhere, not in the Cathedral, possibly in Hell as the game external material mentions which retcons Diablo I since the character's Cathedral had mirrors. The angel's wings were supposed to be torn off, I guess only partially now?
    • External material also mentions Lilith being sent to the Void and we see the villain appearing in the/a church, well, actually somewhere under it, appearing out of nowhere going through the blood web.
    • Now, first time Lilith is mentioned in a Diablo game is in the third one, its expansions (Reaper of Souls) if I'm not mistaken. If they decide not to consider too much from comic books, books and other external material, they still have to explain Rathma being their son (if it still is that way) and how the nephalem came to be, the trouble with the Worldstone etc.
    • On Diablo III's end, what will we find out about the powerful nephalem? Will the character be overwritten by Rathma as the killer of both Diablo and or at least Malthael? Or will it be Mendeln/Kalan or Mehtan (Deadly Roots: The Lore of the Necromancer) or just totally unrelated, maybe the Diablo III nephalem hero standing with the remaining Horadrim and Tyrael?
    • They could actually make an interesting conflict between Inarius and Lilith especially in what the nephalem are concerned. Also, let's not forget the Worldstone was destroyed by Tyrael and that the Reaper of Souls hero is a very powerful nephalem. Maybe, there will be a way to choose a Inarius' or Lilith's side or maybe that would only concern the Diablo III nephalem hero since Lilith is supposed to be Diablo IV's main villain/boss. Who knows, maybe the nephalem will gather all humans against both Lilith, Inarius and whatever is left of the Angiris Council and Hell.


    Other story posts on other threads:


    More suggestions:
    @Augustus' post.
    @MasterBlaster's post.
    @Kerael's post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  2. Augustus

    Augustus

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    Here's a class idea I've had for a while. An Occultist that uses Health as a resource to cast horrific spells and enslave demons. A bit like the Necromancer and the Warlock from WOW but with blood magic and instead of summoning generic demons you can enslave, buff or explode demons in the world. Explode an ice demon? It explodes into bloody ice bolts that freeze enemies.

    The only thing that concerns me is that while the art style is definitely on point, the assets don't seem as high quality as Diablo 3's were at the time. Even though Diablo 3's style was not really Diablo, you can't deny the quality of the assets. This game feels like a current gen game from 2016-17 and the game is still at least a couple of years away. I'm worried it will look dated by the time it's out.
     
  3. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Awesome concept. I guess we could have an opposite too, on the angelic side other than a Paladin/Crusader.

    However, the mana(?) should be used as some sort of shield since health is the most important and decisive native resource(?) and will create issues in PvP if Occultists/Warlocks would die more easily than the other classes.

    I don't know about that. The contours seem more softened than in Diablo III, the feels is really good and the colours are not as offensive as in Diablo III. I don't think there are details missing at all from the models. Of course, the engine is in its infant stages or at least early since it's not even an alpha (or between alpha and beta?).
     
  4. Augustus

    Augustus

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    That's the point of the class. Very weak and very risky but extremely powerful. A glass cannon.

    It's not about the colors. The style is on point and while the game definitely looks good, it feels like the models and textures are not quite Blizzard quality. Look at the guy narrating the gameplay trailer. He's not bad looking but the textures and the animations could be better. By 2021-2022 we will have the next PS and Xbox and I think Diablo 4 should take full advantage of this future hardware.
     
  5. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Ah, I think Diablo III also had this "issue". I remember their policy being they want their games to be played by everyone. Look at how StarCraft II evolved from Wings of Liberty to Legacy of the Void. The graphic enhancements are obvious.
    But again it's an early version. We'll see later next year how the beta will look, probably.
     
  6. Augustus

    Augustus

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    Yes, I get their policy but it seems it doesn't work quite as well when the game has a more realistic style. Maybe that's why they made D3 cartoony? Perhaps the tech simply wasn't there to make it realistic.

    It might also be because of the lighting. It's pretty hard to get interesting lighting when the sky is overcast. There is a screenshot of a snowy inn and I think it looks really awesome.

    Have another look at Diablo 4 with these screenshots
     
  7. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Ah no, I meant, the graphics being tad outdated. The cartoon oriented look of Diablo III was an art direction. Maybe they used parts of the WoW engine or something for less money investment. I don't know.

    This looks amazing albeit the image quality is not good:
    DIVScreen.png
    from video.
     
  8. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    To be honest - I never liked that D2's Druid had fire abilities, because even if they were differently themed, they were still quite similar to what the Sorceress had. Thus, I for one enjoy that they've swapped fire with earth/wind magic in D4. Yes, fire could work too, but imo what they're doing is better.

    Wouldn't work. Their whole idea is that Heaven doesn't care - and I absolutely love this, because it creates this feeling that we're on our own and we can't hope that any amount of prayers will bring help from the above, which makes the setting more scary/desperate, which is obviously what they are aiming for.

    Thus, if Heaven is not involved in any way, it wouldn't make sense that we can allign with it.

    Obviously a lot can change until D4 is out, but as it stands right now - skill choices are permanent and you can change around talents and gear. At least that's how it worked in the Blizzcon demo.

    Personally, I'm against easily accessible respecs. I feel there should be some permanence to your choices, so that they feel more meaningful. That said, I think that having no respecs at all is also pretty bad, because it pidgeon-holes you into finding a good build online and mindlessly sticking to it, so that you don't gimp yourself. This severely limits experimentation. Another thing is, with no respecs if you make a mistake, your character takes a permanent hit. And that feels bad.

    My solution to this issue would be to allow respecs, but at an ever increasing cost, so that you could course-correct your build a bit or fix a mistake or try some things while playing, but you wouldn't be able to constantly switch your build whenever you like.

    And yes, I feel there should be a clear point where it's just better to make a new character for some other build than grind out respecs on your old one, but with enough breathing room to allow things mentioned above.

    I strongly disagree. I think that D3's combat felt amazing and to this day it's probably the best feeling aRPG combat ever. Heck, even a lot of people who absolutely hated D3 and went to Path of Exile or other games say this. So... I absolutely love that they want to preserve and/or improve on D3's combat.

    And what you're referring to in this quote is basically animation-cancelling - yes, games that don't have it are more realistic, but they also feel a LOT more clunky and unweidly. In some games that are about more tactical, slower combat that is absolutely fine, but it's absolutely the last thing you want in an aRPG, which as a genre is inherently about fast-paced, fluid combat. Like, heck - if you watched some streamers play D4, the one big complain many of them had that there was a slight delay at the end of dash animation and that it didn't feel right. It's just not what aRPG are. I get that you'd prefer a more realistic combat, but implementing it would pretty much change D4's genre.

    This one I agree with, though - I'd absolutely love some nostalgia fights, just not as a part of the story. Perhaps some system where once you finish the main story you gain access to some visions or whatever, where you can go fight Duriel or Andariel just for fun.

    So much this.

    If you're going to have a villain, make him shut up. Completely. Diablo throwing cheesy threats made him annoying instead of scary in D3. The same with Azmodan and him basically telling us everything that he'll do. That's just stupid. And my favourite - Belial. The master of deception who just so happened to be the most obvious deceiver I've ever seen. No more of that.

    Villains don't have to speak all the time - our imagination, if fueled properly, can make up stuff that's a LOT more scary than any cheesy line.

    In one of their panels they've said that it's just some random skeleton lord or whatever, not Leoric. It's just that the art is similar.

    ---

    I'll have my own list of suggestions soon :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  9. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Sure but I can say the same with the storm spells being similar to Wizard or Sorceress' lightning ones. Fire is a hunting element too. I didn't say I'm bothered by this change. It's OK. I just want them to make more logical ones like these so that the classes won't be Diablo II or any Diablo game ripoffs.
    It could work either on Lilith or Inarius' side. Was just an idea. It doesn't have to be exactly like how I wrote it though :) They could not do something like this at all. Just an idea. Anything can work by the way with the proper tuning.
    It became pretty involved as a matter of fact since Diablo III and RoS.
    Darn, the grind for gem merging in DIII is unbearable. I'd really wouldn't want to waste time farming gold to do such changes.
    That's more for AoS games if you ask me. Each with his own.
    That's a totally different thing. I just don't want that kind of stuff in the main story. Sure, Caverns of Time type of events would be quite lovely.
    He couldn't resist. He was histrionic.
    Waiting!
     
  10. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    Isn't Diablo inherently about grinding for something? :)

    And my suggestions will have to wait for tomorrow, because they're a lot of writing and I have some other things to do this evening :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  11. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    No problem.

    More about why the intro necromancer is Rathma, Lilith takes the character's hand gently and looks tranquil.
    Yeah, you might say but why is Rathma kneeling? Well, I guess it's more than a family relationship, the necromancer acknowledges Lilith as a superior.




    @MasterBlaster
    Since it's an ARPG, they could make stuff like with the Diablo III beta/alpha Siegebreaker Assault Beast biting hero's heads off (last part of this video) if they don't quickly react to set themselves free.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  12. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Might be for class diversity. Especially if they push coop it might be required that you vary your party composition to progress at higher difficulties. For example resistant/immune to cold monsters might be a problem for a druid, but throw in a class with fire and things become easier. This was a very positive aspect of Diablo II when playing coop since you wanted your party to have elemental diversity. Without it one ends up with a Diablo III style mess where most damage wins, irrespective of element.

    Diablo II limited this by allowing one access to many different elements, but it was also constructed as a single player game with multiplayer being a bonus. By restricting class elemental availability even further than in Diablo III it might encourage cooperative play, which is ok considering the game is online only anyway just like Diablo III.
    There may be more transformations than were shown on the show room floor given how early the game is during development (no concrete release date). So far we have werewolf and werebear at least.

    The transformation could also be turned into a purely cosmetic thing, with players able to select from a variety of animals (even cow as an easter egg) with all of them mechanically functioning the same. This would solve the problem of too much choice that having 3 or more transformations may bring and make balancing easier. I am sure many people would prefer this due to their personal preferences with animals.
    This limits art diversity, especially with character designs. Looking at the gameplay footage they want to keep that Diablo II and III style unique character designs. If druid and barbarian were devised from the same base class then they would share the same character model which limits diversity. This is also healthy for gameplay as it allows one to easily tell a druid apart from a barbarian as their body shape and features are substantially different.
    There are lore implications. The Sorceress was not a generic mage, she came from a female magic orientated background, similar in ways to the origins of the Amazon/Cassia.
    Paladins and Crusaders yes, but not Monks as again there are major lore reasons that prevent this. Monks were followers of a completely different religion.
    Would be better to keep them as separate classes. As is Necromancer has enough variety potential.
    It is too early to guess what the story is. One of the bosses shown appeared to be Durial, Lord of Pain, so one can assume all Evils have been reborn. This likely means we will encounter Baal, Mephisto and Diablo once again with Diablo being pretty much expected from a Diablo game. However this does not explain how Lilith ties in with the story.

    Siding with demons in the form of evils is not lore wise possible since they are inherently evil. This would basically turn your hero into a villain and sanctuary would be turned into part of hell. On the other hand siding with Lilith or the Horodrim could be a lore wise viable choice, since both should want the destruction of the Evils. This could even have PvP aspects associated with it.
    Will likely have Diablo II style respec system where for a cost (gold?) you can reset your choices. It might also be that the game is designed such that you can eventually max/unlock everything which would be a more natural solution and solve many of the game health issues that skill trees suffer from.
    Diablo III originally did have delays and such to prevent this. However it caused the same gameplay health problems that Diablo II suffered from due to them. Specifically so that blocking or evasion looked realistic you were locked in place to play the animation. This meant that during an intense fight you were effectively soft locked in combat until someone freed you or you died because your character was repeatedly playing the animations preventing you from doing anything. This is why Diablo III removed it with one of the patches, since it allows gameplay to remain much more responsive and less frustrating.

    The best example of this nonsense was playing the Amazon in Diablo II and taking the various evasion techniques. These had stupidly long animations and were prone to desyncing your client from the server. With them skilled high enough and playing an impale based build it was possible that mobs of enemies could repeatedly trigger your evasion animation to the point you were unable to attack back, run, move or do anything but use potions or die. Another example was the Tomb Vipers around Nithalak in Hell difficulty when playing as a Hammerdin, the poison spear would trigger your 1-2 frame block animation so much that you could not do anything and the game made a loud grating sound, with you either surviving until the effect wore off or more often than not having to respawn.
    Quick time events are not fun and probably not appropriate to Diablo. Additionally once the player learns them they become trivial (might as well auto pass) unless they are randomly generated button presses in which case slower people may never be able to pass them, such as myself, which makes the game very unfun for such people.

    That said having such animations play if the move kills your hero would be cool. For example if you fail to pass the health check when the siege breaker grabs you, it bites your head off rather than throwing you down. Mechanically this makes no difference since you would have died anyway but visually it would be a cool detail.
    This is Diablo... A lot of characters physically cannot die permanently. The Evils have been slain many times and they just keep coming back. I suspect Angels do the same. As such I expect to see lots of Evils and even Malthael make a reappearance.

    I agree that Cain should probably be left be. Maybe have him appear as a ghost during the plot but nothing more.
    Except that is Azmodan's signature move! Even HotS makes fun of it so at this point I would be disappointed if we fight Azmodan and he does not do that.

    One could also make the threats less empty seeing how the world is more open and persistent.
    Diablo III actually did this very well. The only issue was that people never bothered to play Campaign mode after adventure mode was added.

    All the diaries and such were just extra background lore, unrelated directly with the main plot and often reiterating the previous game plots or flavour text.
    Nice that he has resurrected. It is at least consistent with the end of Diablo III where all evils were set free. Hope we see Mephisto and Baal again.
    Lilith was mentioned in Diablo II. She was even a non-cannon bonus boss during the Ubers however this was nothing more than a reskinned Andarial. Back then Lilith was the daughter of Andariel and I think even Mephisto. However her lore was revised since then so she is now just the daughter of Mephisto and is also an ancestor of all humans in Diablo.

    http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-lilith.shtml


    Diablo III explained her modern lore. Both angels and demons grew tired of fighting each other and so they stole the world stone and created sanctuary. There some of them fell in love with each other and somehow had children. These children were nephalem, with power unmatched by heaven and hell. Lilith thought to use the nephalem as an army to destroy heaven and hell, a plan the angels did not agree on and so a civil war started. At the end Lilith was defeated and the world stone was repurposed to seal away the nephalem powers, rendering them weak mortal humans.

    Based on Diablo III lore it is completely possible the heroes of Diablo IV are nephalem.
    It is likely that a time skip has occurred. As such the nephalem from Diablo III may be old frail people, much like how the Diablo II heroes were during Diablo III. Many may even be dead. Tyrael may even be an old man now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  13. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Well, of course but what if you play solo?
    Ah but no. I want it lore friendly. Cosmetics is a totally different thing. A cow with the bear's or wolf's abilities or from both is more than awkward.
    It's not my fault they created a doppelganger in Diablo III. They could for instance make you decide where to learn wizardry from.
    About the current barbarian and druid look. They are similarly big and mostly the spells and gear differentiate them.
    The point is not to copy-paste the classes from Diablo II-III.
    It's what I'm afraid of. No biggie, I don't preorder games.
    Well, maybe some players like to see the world burn :p
    That is a design fault. Either make it so that you can block while moving or not block at all when moving.
    Again, it doesn't have to be the same. Just more towards realism, not buggy.
    I mean casting a higher damage spell or hitting the the enemy. If you don't do anything at all, you die or lose lots of health. Just an idea.
    I don't buy the reaction time thing. Diablo is a fast paced game since Diablo III. Reaction is pretty much mandatory. An example are the frozen bombs DIII elites create which require you to move fast or be frozen for seconds. Similarly, the laser balls they cast which rotate their beams.
    This is uncreative. None of the first Diablo bosses reappeared in Diablo II except for Diablo which made sense. Similarly, none of the evils were resurrected in LoD by Baal.
    Oh boy, StarCraft II "Tassadar"? I don't know about you but I don't like sloppy nostalgia based writing. But then again, there are so many other better games out there if that will be the case.
    Read the first Diablo manual. Azmodan wasn't an idiot.
    Diablo II did it better. Diablo III is filled with breaking the fourth wall jokes and stuff. Also, Diablo III introduced those lame diaries. Every characters wrote something and lost the writings around Sanctuary.
    They could have made a library in Caldeum where players could read Abd al-Hazir's writings. But they created the lost diaries for the achievements.
    Also, RoS' Inarius and Lilith diaries basically were hinting at what Diablo IV would be about if that's what they decided then and not afterward.
    Which totally kills soulstones and Diablo II. Not to mention the transition between DII and DIII. It screams unimaginable retcon.
    Wow, I didn't know about that link. Wonder when they wrote it. It's not in the game manual. But it doesn't say anything about Mephisto and Lilith. Also, these post normal difficulty monsters are basically not the main story. These explanations are there as bonus. I mean, how can you say it's a continuity when every difficulty is as if the world starts over?
    The only thing Diablo II directly mentions is Inarius on the manual world map:
    [​IMG]
    Which is not mentioned on the DIII map:
    [​IMG]
    *retconned lore. However, it's first the fault of the books before Diablo III, the Sin War trilogy. Of course, if we don't consider a filler Diablo II Pandemonium event boss, it's not a total retcon but more of an addition.

    Not all the Über boss versions have an unique story. Most of them have the normal boss lore.
    It was Lilith and Inarius actually, not more. They stole what became the Worldstone. The children were theirs. The rest were followers. At least it's what external material says.
    I guess since the Worldstone was destroyed nephalem will appear more and more. I think the heroes of the first Diablo games were also nephalem as their powers surpassed that of the prime evils. No mere human has such powers even with training, I guess.
    Then why was Tyrael so worried at the end of RoS if anything that could have happened afterwards would be only temporary?
     
  14. Feng Shui

    Feng Shui

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    Guess in one way it all comes down to whether or not Maleficent will have voluptuous ta tas.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  15. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Maybe you cannot? Because the open world will have influences from other players?
    Does not stop them wielding large weaponry apparently...
    The point is to copy and paste them, since that is what people expect? We had a Barbarian in 2 and 3 and so we want one in 4.

    If all classes should be included is another question. For example maybe Paladin is included instead of Crusader.
    From what I can see Diablo was never created around this. This is not some sort of Undertale where you decide if you are good or evil. Yes you can be a trolly PKer but ultimately you were meant to have killed Baal and helped Tyrael.
    It did not apply to block, it applied to everything. And being an action RPG you are expected to be moving a lot of the time. If anything reducing the number of skills which force you to be stationary to use would help game flow a lot. There is a reason Whirlwind Barb is so good in Diablo III.
    Except realism in such situation would entitle your character huddling to the ground under their shield looking like their shield is being hit by a 300 km/h hurricane. Then after that waiting 15+ seconds to recover from the experience.

    People play games because they are not reality. They want to be a super hero.
    And how would this be animated? Especially seeing how you are arguing about realistic animation so much, if anything this would be the complete opposite? How could the hero use a powerful skill if they are being held tight in the arms of a monster/demon preventing their arms from moving?

    Especially considering there will likely be a Hardcore mode, having any kind of instant death is best avoided.
    You need to avoid them in Diablo III?! One's 4 billion toughness and unstoppable usually is enough to tank right through them...

    They also are well choreographed and very slow. Most of their challenge is from the zoning they apply which forces one to move if one lacks the ability to out right tank them.

    Instant cast instant death skills with a challenge to pass would also serve no purpose if they are made too easy to pass. Since every one will always be passing them then one might as well make them auto pass in which case one can save on the assets for instant death animation anyway. This is likely why the concept was removed in Diablo III.

    In theory Diablo III did have an instant death ability at release. Azmodan's Globe would gain damage the longer it travelled and in Inferno mode unless you face tanked it at melee range the instant it was cast it would quickly deal more damage than your character could possibly survive. The globe also homed in so the only way to survive it past that point was to out run it until it timed out (during which time you could not attack) or to use abilities to prevent the damage killing you (limited by cooldowns, eats your skill slots). Needless to say this was removed when Azmodan was overhauled for RoS, since you often spent 2/3 or more of the fight running around not attacking him, especially when playing solo.
    Only if one ignores the lore completely. Both Mephisto and Baal were meant to have been resurrected as well in Diablo II as their bodies were killed prior to the events in Diablo I by Tal Rasha.

    Baal did not get a chance to work to resurrect the other evils in Diablo II LoD because he was still executing the plan Mephisto made.

    Nothing is creative anymore so that argument does not stand. In fact one could say it is more creative resurrecting them as repeating characters given how World of Warcraft has milked the killing of characters to death already for a decade.
    Neither was he an idiot in Diablo III. Being the second to final act in Diablo III (before RoS) all monsters were level 63, the same as the final act. Clearing the act in Inferno was extremely difficult. His gloating was well deserved given how if one of the many run up to him bosses did not brick wall you by their enrage timers, he would. Of course if you dual wielded credit cards this was not an issue and he may have seemed easy, but for average joe playing the game using only what they found and the gold auction house getting past Act III while not feeling you were carried by someone else was a real achievement, especially in Hardcore.

    He was just made to seem like an idiot when the main hero was buffed considerably in the run up to RoS. Being able to one shot everything, including him, kind of makes the gloating stupid.
    It is? I do not recall any...
    Which have nothing to do with the direct plot of Diablo III. Instead they either repeat the plot of previous Diablo games, for those who never played them, or fill in the missing lore details which the game manual used to.
    Actually they were there to explain why Malthael went mad. This sort of background lore used to be in the game manual, but games do not have proper game manuals anymore.

    The reason for Malthael going mad has nothing to do with the plot of Diablo III. Similar to how Azmodan and the other evils banishing the prime evils to sanctuary had nothing to do with the plot of Diablo II. Hence why both of these were provided as background information in the manual (Diablo II) or diaries (Diablo III).
    Such retcon was required to make Diablo III to begin with... Naming a game Diablo and not having Diablo as a boss kind of defeats the purpose of the franchise.

    In Diablo II you were meant to have smashed Diablo's soul stone in the interlude between Act 4 and Act 5.
    It was written when the pandemonium event was added to ladder, which was a year or so after release of LoD. The event was only available on Hell difficulty, hence no Normal or Nightmare mode equivalent. As Diablo II was the end of the Diablo franchise at the time, the event was technically lore back then. It was retconned for Diablo III when they decided to think, plan and expand lore more carefully.
    Diablo I it was meant to be that the heroes were all beings of great power who inevitably fell to Diablo. In Diablo II the warrior became Diablo, the Sorcerer because the Summoner and the Rouge became a miniboss of Act 1.

    The Diablo II heroes were also meant to have great power but not be Nephalim. The Sorcerer became the teacher/friend of the Wizard, the Necromancer raised an apprentice, the Barbarian was an ancestor of the Barbarian. There were probably a few more but these might not have made it into Diablo III, since much content ended up being cut.
    Planned third expansion that never happened? Who knows...
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I don't get the spam joke. Are you referring to the flat chest in the intro. Would that make it not a reiteration?
    They've said you can play this game solo and it's only optional to have a party for world events or go PvP.
    The Cow stuff is only as a joke, Easter egg, not to be take seriously...
    The Barbarian of DIII is not an exact copy of the one in DII. That's what I'm trying to explain they should do with mixing classes.
    Lorewise, Paladins became bad or at least obsolete since the reformed Crusader movement is now the good one following the Light properly.
    Why be so restrictive? Note, this is supposed to be a new Diablo game.
    It's obviously a game. I don't expect a reality simulation, just to have logic of realism as much as possible.
    People who want to be a fictional superhero they'll never be in reality should play superhero related games or WoW, whatever. Diablo was never about being a superhero in the comic book sense.
    Exactly. The character could run while blocking certain attacks while other would hit and easily slow them down, not stop them because it would obviously create an annoying gameplay mechanic. Again, if they want to, they can combine realism with fast paced action.
    Maybe while using the attack button or spell numbers, the animation would show the character twitching and suddenly breaking loose? They can think of something. Using spells would break the character free faster while using normal attacks would take more time.
    Yeah, that's a valid point however, Nihlathak in DII and not only could kill your character with one spell (corpse explosion). Similarly in Diablo III the lasers and frozen stars could kill you in a matter of seconds.
    In DIII it's important to have damage. Classes like the wizard will be fragile. Barbarians and Crusaders are the most resistant but if players don't find proper gear or invest in damage bonuses instead of armour/defense and life, they will have issues on higher difficulties where it will take minutes-hours to kill bosses.
    The same could be said about the Siegebreaker Assault Beast beta/alpha ability. It could be made to have proper latency.
    Also, DIII jailer spells instantly catch you. There's no "choreography" in that.
    It's just a more animated way of seeing things. It can be the equated to the DIII elite boss spells mentioned before.
    They should have made Azmodan cast that rarely.
    Not by Tal Rasha alone but by the Horadrim. Tal Rasha was an initiate who volunteered and suggested that demons might be contained by strong willed people by connecting their body directly to the a soulstone.
    You are right. However, the demons should not reappear the same way as their hosts will always be different. Diablo III was spot on that with Diablo's look.
    Also, we don't exactly know what happened with Mephisto's soulstone. Diablo II made it pretty clear that by using Hephasto's Hell Forge Hammer on the stone in the Hellforge would stop Mephisto from manifesting again. Similarly we can understand that both Diablo and Baal got the same treatment. Not too sure about Baal though since Tyrael immediately came, destroyed the Worldstone and the world ended.
    If, these stones would have done their job, there would have been no need for the Aiden+Adria retcon. It's how Diablo reappeared, basically, but only partially, logically.
    Also, DII did not say anything about soulstones pertaining the lesser evils but since we don't see them in DIII, it's safe to assume they were pretty dead.
    It's true that Tyrael says that Diablo had been released even if Malthael consumed the demonic energy. Hopefully, it remains just said.
    It's the same thing. But I care about Diablo though and hope to still do.
    I'm talking about the gameplay. In terms of story, Azmodan is an idiot in Diablo III telling you everything that will follow and eventually how to get to Hell and kill the demon.
    Not in the literal sense but many jokes are too contemporary or out of theme that they break immersion. It's like those Warcraft III quotes but that's different since Warcraft has such stuff since Warcraft II.
    The ones about Malthael, yes. Too bad they don't make those manuals anymore. It's always a pleasure to read the stories and imagine things yourself, draw conclusions etc. Plus, it doesn't break immersion since you don't fight and hear about some demon bee and who found it.
    The problem is Malthael's diaries appeared in RoS where it directly links the character to the story. Azmodan was only mentioned in the first Diablo manual before making an appearance in Diablo III.
    They could have made it so that Diablo's soulstone could not be broken or something, anything less cheesier. But the black soulstone and the Adria retcon are just horrible.
    And again, already mentioned, the expansions of Diablo games don't have Diablo (well, except for RoS, indirectly).
    That's funny. Careful planning is an undeserved compliment for Diablo III.
    Where is that mentioned?
     
  17. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    So, my suggestions (were supposed to be a lot longer, but I got tied up answering to other threads :D):

    1. I think that Sorceress, Druid and Barbarian are enough for returning classes - I'd prefer the remaining two to be something new.
    2. I've heard that the max level for D4 is going to be 40 - I think that's a bit too low.
    3. Talent trees - the idea is nice, but personally I feel that the tree is a bit too small.
    4. Runewords - I really like the concept of conditionals and effects, but I think we should be able to make combinations of say conditional + 2 effects, etc.
    5. I'm not a fan of the environment shown in the Blizzcon demo - it look a little too gray-ish. I'd like there to be more colors, maybe some red-ish rocks or something.
    6. As much as I love cutscenes, I really hope that there's an option to permanently disable them, because you know that after a few times they will become annoying.
     
  18. Kerael

    Kerael

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    Now this is a topic of some bandwidth.

    I think we should let the Team 3 know about what we're up to around some time.

    I Gameplay/Mechanics
    • Instant Kill abilities
      When I saw them in the gameplay trailer, I was just stunned how darkly true they were executed (2:06). With the music suddenly changing from thrill to agony, it seemed so aligned with what Diablo is about.
      However, the insta-kill mechanics are a very sensitive topic, not so say, frustrating at times. I think that they can be designed in a sensible manner.
      • First, they need to be telegraphed properly: long swings with possible aoe indicators.
      • Second, their sheer damage really doesn't have to collapse you to 0 every time. I think that the Defense stat should play a role in that, preventing the death past level ~20 (out of proposed max level of 40).
      • And third, abilities, involving being stunned (held by a Siegebreaker Beast) should be interrupted by the other party members. I think this interaction would be great for the World Bosses, hinting at the fact that they aren't really supposed to be defeated solo.
    • Time To Die
      While we're at it, I'd like to point out that the Damage/Toughness ratio in Diablo III is just bad and frustrating. Unless you go for a Barbarian/Crusader, you're left much more anxious to engage the demon hordes since they can pretty much one-shot you if they have certain affixes. I've gathered quite a graveyard of Demon Hunters mostly because of momentary lags.
      Diablo II handled this balance much better. You could die either way, but the Health Globe didn't behave as an [on/off] LED.​

    • Block/Evade/Attack animations
      I've experienced these stutters back in Diablo II, but with their lack of in Diablo III, the gameflow feels somewhat flat and detached from reality. When nearly all the actions had a certain time-cost, it was much much more immersive than what we have now. For Diablo IV, I'd like this design to make a return, in a smoother fashion, that is.
      • Let's say Shield Blocks do interrupt you for 0.1 sec, but Shields only block in a frontal arc of 120-180 degrees. Already you are thinking about your positioning in combat. At low hp, would you count on the Block Chance or would you take a backstab?
      • Weapon Swap for Barbarians should also have a 0.2 sec "busy" animation. You can move but not perform attacks. This will prevent the Barbarians' increased item-limit from being an outright imba and will also include some thinking process regarding the execution of your combos. Maybe you can whip out your two-handers to finish stunned enemies, but doing so in the heat of things would most likely get you stunned instead.
      • Only a small subset of abilities can cancel these 'animations'. Namely, the escape/mobility skills along with the newly added Dash should be able to interrupt attack backswings, on-block staggers, etc.
      • I think we can all agree that Evasion shouldn't have such animation.
    • Item Durability
      Generally, the most boring topic in all of the Diablo franchise. But I feel like, it can be made grounded instead.
      While watching Rhykker's interview with David Kim, I gave some thought to this concept, as well as how it has changed in Diablo through time. David's example (1:40:44) of "having a cool bonus above a certain durability level" is what sparked the most in me regarding this mechanic.
      • I'd like to suggest this approach to be more general, rather than specific. Not excluding the cool boni from the Legendaries, of course. So let's say the Damage/Defense from the items scales with durability: 100% value at 100% down to 90% durability → 50% value at 0% durability (and you can't use the item at 0). And let's say an item lasts for 40-60 minutes on average. This will make the players more conscious of the gear they're using, which is only right, in my opinion, since the gear-slot number is reduced to just 5 armor + 2/4 weapons.
      • Ethereal items then, should they be added, could 'make more of their durability', having their value scaling shifted up: 125% → 75%. Also, they'd last about 1.5-2 times longer.
      • Some enemy abilities can reduce durability. For example, Duriel's impaling attack would reduce durability of Shields and Armor, while some Shielding ability would blunt the Weapons it is attacked with. However that may have severe PvP implications, should it be applied to player's abilities.
    II Storytelling
    • Scattered Diaries
      I liked listening to the audio-notes while playing. Be it a lore-piece, or a monster's description. But it indeed may turn ugly when the whole plot relies on these pieces being noticed and willingly interacted with. This concept is more suited for the display of extra-lore: something that isn't particularly required for the main theme, but is a welcome piece of trivia instead.
      @deepstrasz, great idea with a library, by the way.​

    • Empty Threats
      The issue with those is self-evident. It's more of a villain becoming the narrator for a part of an Act, than a real message being delivered. And while it may seem rather touching to be addressed by the a boss, it is (was in Diablo III) in essence just a 'you can't stop me' lie. For Diablo IV I wish these interactions to be more like 'Meanwhile, I burned your main village to ash. How do you like it, nephalem?'. Just some real lines about real actions with consequences, not an hour-long invitation to kill them.​

    • Landscape-driven Narrative
      "...It always starts with a journey to a distant land. There I find a city in flames. Streets choked with corpses. Unthinkable destruction. I witness senseless slaughter. Brother against brother. Pure hatred.
      And then, executions. Agony. Suffering surrounded me. Until, my turn comes... They cut my ear. Loot my gold.
      I Alt+F4 in terror. There's noone left to stand against them..."


      Isn't it what we all have already experienced in Diablo II? The gory surroundings had shaped this experience as a whole, framing it in a very particular way. I say it's about time this aspect is upgraded from being a static surrounding asset to becoming an interactable object.
      • We enter The Pit Level 2, but there is no treasure chest to be found. Why? "It's a gate" - a voice replied. Instead, we see a set of blood-stained altars. Once clicked, they drain user's HP until the action is finished (let's say 20% hp over 4 seconds; non-combat; can kill if used at low hp? why not, would activate nevertheless). And once all the altars are attended to, a Boss is summoned. Something like Cursed Shrines, but with a flavor. Looking red is not enough.
      • Repeating the plot of the trailer? Sure, but it doesn't have to be a literal copy, this is just an example, after all. The trailer has established a strong theme and in-game this theme should be followed just as strongly. Otherwise we very well could end up with Diablo III all over again. Distinct and brutal features are what makes the Sanctuary feel so real.
    III Lore
    • Reviving Dead Characters. Diablo past Diablo?
      While recycling material sure does taste great, I think that some of it have to be let go already, only referencing it at most. And while introducing new believable characters is way harder than killing the old ones. The way they kill them is not particularly believable, either.
      On the other hand, there are more opportunities to explore, once a character's death is embraced and accepted.
      • I'm sure Cain's Grave would be a meaningful place to visit. I even suppose that it is already visited in the cutscene bit of the gameplay trailer.
      • As for Duriel, technically he can be revived, since he's something like an uber-creature, not a Prime Evil or the like. So we can expect that the Creator of Sanctuary, or even some of the higher-up Necromancers, would be capable of reviving the beast. However I would prefer that instead, Duriel's offspring would haunt the players nemesis-style while in caves and dungeons, blocking the exits for the duration of the fight.
      • Diablo... he is so old and tired already. Even his skull in the trailer looks especially elderly. @Dr Super Good Can there be a Diablo game without Diablo himself, being alive? Very much yes, as long as it is vivid, that the world is being built on his corpse. After all, it's not like his spirit will leave the Sanctuary anytime soon. He had entailed consequences and he will be referenced more than he needs too. No need in Diablo fight all over again. Except maybe a Shadow of Diablo as a blunt plug.
    • Being Evil
      The game is said to have non-linear campaign. That may very well include options of being malevolent. Who knows, to what extent the Angels don't care. Apart from the obvious looting part, all we do in-game is being a noble hero, while some of the cinematics suggest otherwise (Diablo I end-game cinematic; shoving a Soulstone inside one's own skull). This results in a certain disunion of intent. And I hope it will be reduced by including in-game options such as:
      • Looting a trader-NPC's wheelbarrow vs being able to trade with them.
      • Taking a side in a civil brawl, which may be hinted at by a "Brother against brother" line.
      There may be many more examples, but they are somewhat hard for me to elaborate without inventing some sort of a social system.​

    • Killing a Mother?
      Now, this is a real question. We've been shown an upcoming game as well as a person, who appears to be the final boss of this game. I mean, I'd be glad it wasn't the case, but I feel like it cannot be made more obvious.
      Remember, that the characters we play as are the children of Sanctuary. What is it going to be, regarding the lore moving forward, when the children kill their mother? Any more doom than this?

      And while I like to entertain the idea of Creator being evil (outside of Diablo as well), there is something fundamentally wrong with taking on the said Creator. It brings us to the biblical story of Cain and Abel, and makes me remember that Diablo is a Cain's story.
      The one of being too late, of sacrifices never sufficient, of having every possible reason to Hate the Creator.

      For now I am just very sad that Rathma didn't particularly mean us in his plea.​

    @deepstrasz Flat chest is the way to go though. Fits her way more.

    @MasterBlaster Keep in mind that there are going to be several item-slots with 2 sockets. So it's not a single runeword you're going to play with. However initially I had a similar response.
    Also, the environment is meant to be darker, but that doesn't say anything about contrast. Either what you saw is a WIP or... Whimsydale got the best of you. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  19. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    Not what I've meant - I know we will be able to use a couple of runewords at the same time and that's cool, but what I would like to see is some runewords that are comprised of more than 2 runes.

    I want it to stay dark, I just want it to have more things going on, not just various shades of grey with some greyed out green, like we can see in their winter or destert locations (which I absolutely love!):)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  20. Kerael

    Kerael

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    @MasterBlaster I know, but from what I can tell, the current design inhibits this. The condition + action runes with their respective ▲+▼ shapes seem to only allow combinations of 2 runes.
    It's also kinda sad that the runes don't give any boni on their own, unlike how they used to behave. Additionally, if they add gems on top of runes, the rune+gem combinations would be prohibited.

    By the way, all three of those have already spilled the Blood of the Willing, sealing their fate. The force applied to the Barbarian and the Scoundrel was more of a cinematic move, simply a confirmation of the said pact.