Blizzcon 2019 Opening Ceremony

[deepstrasz]

They never openly objected - the priest did. I think that's the big difference here.

No but within, maybe at least the barbarian might have had second thoughts of why he'd come to that place and that he would have better be somewhere else that moment or not have come at all.

I know who Rathma is. I think it would be interesting if he was the one to summon Lilith, but they better have a good explanation for it - after all, the last we've seen him, Rathma was all about maintaining balance and since the High Heavens are supposedly shut closed, it kinda appears that summoning a powerful demon would only further upset the balance.

Valid point. Angels are battered, demons are basically holocausted by Malthael along with many humans and the nephalem hero is the most powerful now.
Now only humans are more than angels or demons, at least on Sanctuary. Well, Angels rarely came anyway. It was mostly demons and humans. So, Rathma would like the nephalem grow again albeit without a Worldstone.
I guess, Rathma wants to make demons great again because Malthael destroyed most of them and the prime evils were annihilated? It might be an entirely different objective.
Maybe this nephalem became a tyrant and Rathma wants to put the RoS hero down and for that the character needs all the help? Also, Rathma was in good relations with mother Lilith so it's possible that now it was somehow a safe time to appear and also rescue the Apocalyptic Babylon the Great-like villain?

Or maybe... maybe that is his plan? After all, in Diablo 3 the Heavens were saved by the Nephalem, so obviously the angels know how insanely strong Nephalem could be - and, uhm, Lilith always wanted to dominate both Heaven and Hell by using the Nephalem, so she'd definetely be considered a major threat by the Angiris Council. Thus, maybe Rathma wants to ensure that the High Heavens stop their isolationism by forcing their hand?

Oh boy, Imperius is going to die. Yeah, maybe angels would have a hold on the balance now but still there's the nephalem hero to face them along with humanity or part of it.

Or maybe he needs Lilith to free Inarius in hopes that he knows a way to open up Heaven? Or maybe he just got tired of the balance thing or came to a conclusion that the only way to ensure balance is to do exactly what Lilith wanted, i.e. wipe out the Burning Hells and the High Heavens, leaving only the Nephalem, who by nature are both good and evil?

I doubt Inarius is needed. Diablo had little resistance opening the High Heavens gates.
I don't know if Lilith wanted all others to die but only a safe haven like Inarius.

Don't know, but it's definetely interesting to see how they explain Rathma getting involved, but ultimately - I don't think Rathma and Lilith are going to be our enemies, heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we, more or less knowingly, worked for them through the base game. The story team talked a lot about pyrrhic victories, so... maybe that's something they're going for? I for one think it would be cool if the whole D4 plot was Lilith manipulating us into freeing Inarius for whatever reason - we'd do it, because we've seen that the world is crap and we believed that freeing Inarius would help save us, but instead it would only give Lilith what she wanted.

Nah. Inarius should be in Hell, locked away, defenseless which means Lilith will go there and try to rule. It's probably where we'll face the villain.
It remains to be seen what the RoS nephalem hero would do, side with whom or if with anyone at all than the humans, assuming they don't retcon the character's existence.

Using Inarius as a breeding slave would be useless. Now, the nephalem breed on their own together.
Lilith is a demon. I don't think the character has softer plans than Inarius who wanted to lead.

Also, why not here Diablo IV suggestions ?

 

[MasterBlaster]

No but within, maybe at least the barbarian might have had second thoughts of why he'd come to that place and that he would have better be somewhere else that moment or not have come at all.

Maybe the objection had to be said out loud? Who the hell knows how this summoning worked - perhaps the magic behind it assumes that if someone goes into that chamber by donating his/her blood to oper the door, he/she is already willing unless he/she explicitly says that he/she's not?

Angels are battered, demons are basically holocausted by Malthael along with many humans and the nephalem hero is the most powerful now.

Did Malthael even do anything to the demons? I was under the impression that his whole crusade has targeted the mortals, not the Burning Hells. Don't get me wrong, Hell is likely in a pretty bad spot, considering that at the end of D3 all 7 Evils were dead. This likely created a massive power vacuum and knowing demons, there were many who wanted to seize the opportunity and take over. Thus, if anything - I think it wasn't Malthael who decimated the demons, but demons themselves.

Still, Diablo 4 is set decades after D3 and seeing how at least Duriel, Andariel and Mephisto appear to be coming back, it can be assumed that the other evils also had sufficient time to be reincarnated. Thus it's totally possible that Hell has been stabilized and became stronger in the years leading up to D4. Similarly, I think the angels also had enough time to rebuild after Diablo's invasion, so I don't think the Heavens are that weak either. In fact, they should be pretty close in terms of power by now.

It just dawned at me... If we assume that Heaven and Hell had the time to recover and are now balanced... Well, the Angels have locked themselves up in Heaven, which leaves Sanctuary open to the invasion of the Burning Hells. Perhaps that is the issue that Rathma is responding too? Because Hell taking Sanctuary would likely severely upset the balance. Heck, in the gameplay trailer the guy speaks of some visions that warn him that Hell is coming - perhaps it's literally happening?

That would explain how we would fight Duriel or Andariel - they were reborn in Hell and they came as a part of an invading force. This would also explain why Rathma summoned Lilith and asked her to "save us".

I guess, Rathma wants to make demons great again because Malthael destroyed most of them and the prime evils were annihilated? It might be an entirely different objective.

Once again - I don't remember Malthael doing anything to the demons and outside of their invading forces that Asmodan, Belial and Diablo brought with them, the Nephalem also didn't descent into Hell to "decimate" demons. They've surely taken pretty heavy losses, but I don't think most of them were "annihilated". Especially considering that according to modern Diablo lore, Demons automatically reincarnate after some time anyway.

At any rate, if Rathma wanted to make demons great again, he wouldn't have summoned Lilith - she's very anti-demon and chances are she would be more interested in finishing the job than rebuilding Hell. Obviously, it's uncertain - perhaps she'd want to take over and that would strengthen Hell, but then again - in order for Lilith to get control of Hell, she'd need to fight it, which would temporarily make it even weaker. And as I've said, there's also a risk that she'd want Hell dead anyway.

Maybe this nephalem became a tyrant and Rathma wants to put the RoS hero down and for that the character needs all the help?

I'm curious what they will do with the RoS Nephalem - Diablo 3 ended with that notion that a Nephalem can be both good and evil, so I guess it's possible that the player character has become a tyrant. Though, during their panels they've said that after Malthael murdered half of Sanctuary, there was a huge power vacuum that was filled with religion. Now, if the Nephalem wanted to subjugate the world, there wouldn't really be any power vacuums - he'd be in power.

I also don't think that they'd want to imply that our D3 character turned evil. Some people wouldn't like that. And, in a sense, I feel they will want to distance D4's story from D3 as much as they can. So I wouldn't be surprised if, considering the big time-skip, the Nephalem story will be dropped in some way. Like heck, they can say that the Nephalem died of old age or took the other emerging Nephalem with him and simply left, having came to the conclusion that people suck.

I doubt Inarius is needed. Diablo had little resistance opening the High Heavens gates.

Remember that as powerful as Lilith is, she's only a daughter of a Prime Evil and at the time Diablo destroyed the Diamond Gates he was a Prime Evil, i.e. an incarnation of all Prime and Lesser Evils combined. That's a massive power difference. Plus Angels have likely installed some extra safety measures after D3, so... I highly doubt that Lilith would be able to break into Heaven even if she wanted to. Thus, perhaps she needs Inarius for some back entrance tips or whatever.

I don't know if Lilith wanted all others to die but only a safe haven like Inarius.

She did. I think it was stated somewhere in the Sin War books that while Inarius wanted to get away from the war and have a safe haven, Lilith considered the whole Eternal Conflict stupid and wanted to end it - and once she noticed how powerful the Nephalem were, she wanted to use them to do so. And I don't know about you, but seeing how angels and demons hate each other, I doubt that there was another way to end the Eternal Conflict than to wipe out both groups. I mean, any subjugation or whatever just wouldn't last.

Inarius should be in Hell, locked away, defenseless which means Lilith will go there and try to rule. It's probably where we'll face the villain.

I very much doubt that Inarius is just sitting there without any defenses... Like, come on - he's tortured by Mephisto, who apparently is back, so that's one major obstacle. And considering that Inarius is Mephisto's great prize from back in the day, I don't think he'd leave him in some remote, unguarded part of the Hate Realm or whatever is called. I find it much more likely that Inarius is imprisoned deep within Mephisto's domain and is heavily guarded.

Using Inarius as a breeding slave would be useless. Now, the nephalem breed on their own together.

Perhaps something happened that caused Nephalem powers to wane? It's been a long time, so perhaps Nephalem blood is so diluted/weakened now that there's just not enough Nephalem to fight Hell? Or maybe they're just too weak? Or maybe RoS hero took all Nephalem with him somewhere? Who the hell knows.

And I'm assuming something happened, because they've explicitly said that they want to have a more grounded story this time around and that's like literally impossible with hordes of Nephalem out there.

Also, why not here Diablo IV suggestions ?

Because it's a suggestions thread and we're talking lore

 

[deepstrasz]

Did Malthael even do anything to the demons?

Well, humans were on top as most demons remained scattered or in Hell, true. But most creatures we encounter are either Malthael's crusaders or corrupted angels. Malthael was eliminating anything having demonic essence. I guess it was more off-screen since, we, as humans cared for humans dying not demons so the impact and attention was put on humanity.

Did Malthael even do anything to the demons? I was under the impression that his whole crusade has targeted the mortals, not the Burning Hells. Don't get me wrong, Hell is likely in a pretty bad spot, considering that at the end of D3 all 7 Evils were dead.

Technically, stuff was bad since the LoD ending and instead of continuing with either RoS or DIV they gave us the cheesy DIII retcon.

Still, Diablo 4 is set decades after D3 and seeing how at least Duriel, Andariel and Mephisto appear to be coming back, it can be assumed that the other evils also had sufficient time to be reincarnated.

:\ I won't be able to bear that. It was fine with Diablo, sure because it made sense except for Diablo III of course due to forced story integration. But with the other evils, no thanks. If they pull off something lame like Malthael's death released the demons back into sanctuary where they possessed humans or that Lilith brings them back in a black soulstone or similarly fashion, then they wouldn't have learned anything from DIII's writing.

This would also explain why Rathma summoned Lilith and asked her to "save us".

Nah, I guess, it's about the balance thing that the demons are less than the angels now at least in power and that there's the super nephalem hero out there somewhere. I don't know. Remains to be seen. But again, bringing dead characters back will be lazy and uncreative. They already stabbed us with nostalgia in DIII with Leoric, the Butcher (yeah, yeah, just a demon type not an actual character) and Diablo. And no, there's no such thing as a Diablo game without Diablo argument. Hellfire, Lord of Destruction and Reaper of Souls proved that quite well.

Thus it's totally possible that Hell has been stabilized and became stronger in the years leading up to D4.

Same could be said about the High Heavens. Actually, I'd bet on this last one instead.

Similarly, I think the angels also had enough time to rebuild after Diablo's invasion, so I don't think the Heavens are that weak either. In fact, they should be pretty close in terms of power by now.

Then, what's the point of the save us apart from just stopping the Eternal Conflict which won't ensure balance. It's a fallacy. Humans are the combination of both angels and demons thus infighting is not only possible but valid.
There's a lot of things they have to think through thoroughly so they don't shoot themselves in the foot.

It just dawned at me... If we assume that Heaven and Hell had the time to recover and are now balanced... Well, the Angels have locked themselves up in Heaven, which leaves Sanctuary open to the invasion of the Burning Hells. Perhaps that is the issue that Rathma is responding too? Because Hell taking Sanctuary would likely severely upset the balance. Heck, in the gameplay trailer the guy speaks of some visions that warn him that Hell is coming - perhaps it's literally happening?

I think Hell will be coming with Lilith. It would make more sense for me. Otherwise, Lilith would have no trouble ensuring a nephalem empire under self rule unless, again there are other nephalem to say something against that, the most important of them being the RoS hero. Also, I don't think the Horadrim, few as they are, will be too happy about a demon ruling Sanctuary. Tyrael, surely wouldn't, not because he's 50% human but because the character realizes neither demons, nor angels helped humanity but used humanity for various purposes or even for none at all, only hatred being cast upon them.

Once again - I don't remember Malthael doing anything to the demons and outside of their invading forces that Asmodan, Belial and Diablo brought with them, the Nephalem also didn't descent into Hell to "decimate" demons. They've surely taken pretty heavy losses, but I don't think most of them were "annihilated". Especially considering that according to modern Diablo lore, Demons automatically reincarnate after some time anyway.

Well, the eternal "reincarnation" thing was also said about the angels through their Crystal Arch. Now, this could happen but if it does, we'll have a reboot game and I wouldn't like it. With Diablo III, at least they tried not to do it in our faces but behind the curtain with the black soulstone.
I don't remember exactly. Perhaps Malthael wanted humanity gone so that the Eternal Conflict continue as so long before? I have to check on that.

At any rate, if Rathma wanted to make demons great again, he wouldn't have summoned Lilith - she's very anti-demon and chances are she would be more interested in finishing the job than rebuilding Hell. Obviously, it's uncertain - perhaps she'd want to take over and that would strengthen Hell, but then again - in order for Lilith to get control of Hell, she'd need to fight it, which would temporarily make it even weaker. And as I've said, there's also a risk that she'd want Hell dead anyway.

Yeah, we don't know exactly what this balance of order and chaos means. They have not explained it. Does it mean an Eternal Conflict? Lilith wouldn't want that. Maybe Rathma will use Lilith? I doubt it? Who the heck knows. The character needs Lilith for some reason, for sure since I don't think it's just family affairs when Rathma and Lilith both have objective goals for which they'd fight for. See Inarius vs Lilith. Inarius vs Rathma in external material.
Honestly, I'm at a loss since part of things make sense, part don't. It's like 50% angel, 50% demon->humans->indecisive nonsense
Maybe you can figure something out as we brainstorm.

Though, during their panels they've said that after Malthael murdered half of Sanctuary, there was a huge power vacuum that was filled with religion. Now, if the Nephalem wanted to subjugate the world, there wouldn't really be any power vacuums - he'd be in power.

Hmm, were they specific that it was so before Lilith was called back? In any case, an empire is an easy thing to make. I mean, sure, the nephalem is super strong but it's one man. Rebels, revolts can happen, maybe even Tyrael and the Horadrim being part of a resistance?

I also don't think that they'd want to imply that our D3 character turned evil. Some people wouldn't like that.

Who cares, lol? This is Diablo not correctness politics.
Remember the first Diablo? As one of the three said in the first Diablo IV panel. Diablo didn't have a happy ending. Albrecht wasn't saved and the hero was corrupted by Diablo. Also, Lord of Destruction was practically the end of humanity until they retconned it for DIII.

I feel they will want to distance D4's story from D3 as much as they can.

Honestly, with all the cheesiness in DIII, I don't want them to ignore the whole thing, just the cheese. RoS was pretty good compared to normal DIII, overall I mean in terms of story. DIII definitely had its good parts.

Like heck, they can say that the Nephalem died of old age or took the other emerging Nephalem with him and simply left, having came to the conclusion that people suck.

Lol, come on. The nephalem was killed while sleeping, poisoned. They already did a McGuffin with humanity forgetting the past after Lilith and Inarius were stopped and the (or an) armistice between demons and angels was agreed. Only Rathma and Kalan, the first's disciple remembered and they disappeared Boy, I sure don't like characters disappearing and reappearing later out of the blue.

Remember that as powerful as Lilith is, she's only a daughter of a Prime Evil and at the time Diablo destroyed the Diamond Gates he was a Prime Evil, i.e. an incarnation of all Prime and Lesser Evils combined. That's a massive power difference. Plus Angels have likely installed some extra safety measures after D3, so... I highly doubt that Lilith would be able to break into Heaven even if she wanted to. Thus, perhaps she needs Inarius for some back entrance tips or whatever.

Sure, but Lilith will have a nephalem army, or will corrupt the nephalem hero or Rathma and some demons and humans will be enough. We'll have to see how safe the High Heavens are. Also, Inarius, you think the character will help Lilith after what torment has been brought upon? To help, the angel would have to be free to some extent so torture won't work anymore especially after so many years of tachyphylaxis.

She did. I think it was stated somewhere in the Sin War books that while Inarius wanted to get away from the war and have a safe haven, Lilith considered the whole Eternal Conflict stupid and wanted to end it - and once she noticed how powerful the Nephalem were, she wanted to use them to do so. And I don't know about you, but seeing how angels and demons hate each other, I doubt that there was another way to end the Eternal Conflict than to wipe out both groups. I mean, any subjugation or whatever just wouldn't last.

OK. Let's keep that in mind. Then, would nephalem be better and not start another conflict since they are made of two opposing resonances? If they are fitted together, it doesn't mean they are peaceful. That is proven in humanity's character and no it was not because of demon or angel influence. That would mean angels actually cared about Sanctuary in a way or another.

By the way, there was that thing with the prophet and the Vizjerei. Eirena, the mage companion coming from the past, the prophet being an angel who sent the companion to the future for a purpose. So, now angels see the future!? Also, Inarius was the prophet of the Cathedral of Light. Maybe, it's the same angel or one of those who worked with Inarius back then. But what happened after? Where did the Light come from to the Zakarum? Diablo II says the Light comes from the High Heavens. So, how does humanity draw it from there if not with the willingness of the angels?
External material says the Light is found within humanity and can be accessed through teachings of Akarat and that the Light was brought by an angel (Prometheus ) to Sanctuary.
Weirdly enough, you can find that info here The Arreat Summit - Monsters: Zakarum Zealot for Diablo II. No idea why this wasn't put in the manual. However, this source does not say anything about the Light being brought down or inner Light.

Why would subjugation last on the nephalem? What about demons and angels somehow will be totally eliminated (no reincarnation/revival) and then the nephalem will turn against Lilith and the franchise will end with only nephalem existing?

I very much doubt that Inarius is just sitting there without any defenses... Like, come on - he's tortured by Mephisto, who apparently is back, so that's one major obstacle.

Zarathustra Moses Jesus Muhammad. I hope not. Mephisto was killed in DII long, long after Inarius was already imprisoned. Now, somehow, the villain's cliche return will make the demon nostalgic about torturing Inarius?
The only defense Inarius could have is being hidden. Apart from that, the angel is battered, weak, deformed and unimportant to any other demon or angel. No one cared to use the angel for anything than torture. Actually it is mentioned the angel was left there alone for eternity to see its own deformities as the place was basically a room made of mirrors and the character had no more eyelids, as if angels have any face, lol.
Heavily guarded? Biggest prize? No. Inarius was first considered a mere nuisance and afterwards left to be self tortured. That's what the sources say. Also, external sources point that Mephisto took Inarius to Hell so, not sure if that's the villain's dominion as in the Act III of Diablo II which wasn't. Interestingly this source Inarius says Inarius was denied death. So much for eternal revival, eh?

Perhaps something happened that caused Nephalem powers to wane? It's been a long time, so perhaps Nephalem blood is so diluted/weakened now that there's just not enough Nephalem to fight Hell? Or maybe they're just too weak? Or maybe RoS hero took all Nephalem with him somewhere? Who the hell knows.

Sure. Lilith and Inarius are also weak, especially the later. Also, who would want rabid nephalem people? Imagine that Lilith is the Daughter of Hatred and Inarius will be pretty much full of hatred and insane after so long there alone. Do you think the angel somehow succeeded in becoming blind and meditated all this time ?

Because it's a suggestions thread and we're talking lore

Sure but it's about DIV in general, suggestions/comments pertaining all the aspects even the story. If you like, you can open up a new thread and we'll ask higher staff personnel to move the posts or we'll just link them there in one post.

---

Also, who's interested for more Diablo IV stuff:
Diablo IV Feature Overview
Diablo IV Unveiled
Diablo 4 - A Return to Darkness BlizzCon Panel Recap
BlizzCon 2019 Artists at Work: Diablo
All the Diablo Announcements at BlizzCon 2019 - Diablo IV, Lilith Wings, Diablo Immortal
BlizzCon 2019: Liveblog Diablo IV: Systems & Features Panel
Diablo IV Talent Trees and Skills
The Art of Diablo Recap

You have to scroll down on those pages to get to the content.

Also: Diablo IV Feature Overview

 

[A Void]

So if Lilith is the mother of Sanctuary and humans, why would she be the antagonist? Didn't she love her children and wanted to protect them from Inarius?

 

[Augustus]

So if Lilith is the mother of Sanctuary and humans, why would she be the antagonist? Didn't she love her children and wanted to protect them from Inarius?

Perhaps she thinks humanity has become weak? Maybe she wants more Nephalem.

 

[deepstrasz]

So if Lilith is the mother of Sanctuary and humans, why would she be the antagonist? Didn't she love her children and wanted to protect them from Inarius?

She'd also want to rule Sanctuary, I guess and maybe the nephalem are sick of demons and angels and want only their greedy presence in the world.

 

[Feng Shui]

Actually. Why is everyone so sure the Quan Chi double is Rathma? Pretty sure he hated Lilith and Inarius.

Nephalem could have been a decent concept if D3 didn't shit all over it by making it a deep dive into dumb player empowerment.

Honestly at this point I'd be happier if they traded it for literally anything else.

tzimisce???

Sorry, it's a nerdcore reference to Vampire: The Masquerade.

 

[deepstrasz]

Actually. Why is everyone so sure the Quan Chi double is Rathma? Pretty sure he hated Lilith and Inarius.

Rathma didn't hate Inarius or Lilith. The character sided with Lilith because Inarius wanted the nephalem weaker than the angel.
It makes sense for Quan Chi's brother to be Rathma if you look how tranquil Lilith is and the fact that the demoness gently accepted the necromancer's hand.

 

[MasterBlaster]

But with the other evils, no thanks. If they pull off something lame like Malthael's death released the demons back into sanctuary where they possessed humans or that Lilith brings them back in a black soulstone or similarly fashion, then they wouldn't have learned anything from DIII's writing.

I don't mind it, to be honest - the idea is that Evils are incarnations of all those nasty stuff like Hatred, Terror, etc. To some extent it does kinda make sense that they can't truly be killed and will reincarnate, just like the Angels. I don't have a problem with that - my only concern is using the same cast of characters. I'm fine with old threats being active again, but I think that D4 should focus on some new villains and if they really want to use some of the old ones, either save them for expansions or use no more than one or two, not the whole gang.

the Butcher (yeah, yeah, just a demon type not an actual character)

Don't even remind me of that blunder.

And no, there's no such thing as a Diablo game without Diablo argument. Hellfire, Lord of Destruction and Reaper of Souls proved that quite well.

Funny thing is - they can have Diablo in D4 without actually having him make an appearance by simply having characters reference him from time to time. To me that would be enough. In fact, I'd actually prefer it, because after all the cheesy lines from D3, I need some time to recover from seeing Diablo.

Then, what's the point of the save us apart from just stopping the Eternal Conflict which won't ensure balance.

The point is that the High Heavens are closed and Angels don't care - if Hell attacks Sanctuary, we're on our own and we might need help.

Lilith would have no trouble ensuring a nephalem empire under self rule unless, again there are other nephalem to say something against that, the most important of them being the RoS hero.

Not really - Lilith was described as a seductress and master manipulator. Heck, if I remember right, she played Rathma or someone else for quite a while. It's possible she could do the same with other Nephalem, especially if they were distracted by something else - like, say, Hell attacking.

Also, I don't think the Horadrim, few as they are, will be too happy about a demon ruling Sanctuary. Tyrael, surely wouldn't, not because he's 50% human but because the character realizes neither demons, nor angels helped humanity but used humanity for various purposes or even for none at all, only hatred being cast upon them.

That's curious, because as far as we know Tyrael is locked in Heaven with the Angels, so I doubt we'll be seeing him (which I'm actually happy about). As for the Horadrim... I wonder if they still exist - I mean, I know they did at the end of RoS, but it's been a while, so they might have disbanded or something. Hopefully D4 touches on that.

I don't remember exactly. Perhaps Malthael wanted humanity gone so that the Eternal Conflict continue as so long before? I have to check on that.

He wanted humanity gone, because he came to a conclusion that due to the evil inside us we're a threat and we should not exist.

Yeah, we don't know exactly what this balance of order and chaos means.

I'm more interested what would happen if the balance was disturbed - what would happen and would it necessarily have to be bad?

I mean, sure, the nephalem is super strong but it's one man. Rebels, revolts can happen, maybe even Tyrael and the Horadrim being part of a resistance?

If the Nephalem is still around, he's basically a living god - he could easily create his own religion and sell himself as a deity, gaining a ton of followers. With those followers he should be able to control the world, or a big chunk of it.

Remember the first Diablo? As one of the three said in the first Diablo IV panel. Diablo didn't have a happy ending. Albrecht wasn't saved and the hero was corrupted by Diablo.

Fair point.

Also, Inarius, you think the character will help Lilith after what torment has been brought upon? To help, the angel would have to be free to some extent so torture won't work anymore especially after so many years of tachyphylaxis.

Well, it's possible that after so many years of torture Inarius is super weak, so perhaps his "participation" isn't really required? Perhaps Lilith can just use him?

Then, would nephalem be better and not start another conflict since they are made of two opposing resonances?

Another fair point.

If they are fitted together, it doesn't mean they are peaceful. That is proven in humanity's character and no it was not because of demon or angel influence. That would mean angels actually cared about Sanctuary in a way or another.

By the way, there was that thing with the prophet and the Vizjerei. Eirena, the mage companion coming from the past, the prophet being an angel who sent the companion to the future for a purpose. So, now angels see the future!?

Well, wasn't Itherael, the Archangel of Fate, able to see the future? But then again, I think the Nephalem future was something he couldn't see.

Also, Inarius was the prophet of the Cathedral of Light. Maybe, it's the same angel or one of those who worked with Inarius back then. But what happened after? Where did the Light come from to the Zakarum? Diablo II says the Light comes from the High Heavens. So, how does humanity draw it from there if not with the willingness of the angels?

I'd venture a guess that since we're part-Angel, we have the Light inside us and we don't really need Heaven to use it, but some people who are unaware of our heritage might consider the Light to be something that comes from the Heaven, thus creating a false faith or something.

Why would subjugation last on the nephalem? What about demons and angels somehow will be totally eliminated (no reincarnation/revival) and then the nephalem will turn against Lilith and the franchise will end with only nephalem existing?

Maybe it's not about whether the subjugation would last, but if Lilith believes that it would?

Apart from that, the angel is battered, weak, deformed and unimportant to any other demon or angel. No one cared to use the angel for anything than torture.

We don't know what the Hell might want with Inarius - perhaps it's just as you say and they're just having fun torturing him, but... maybe he knows something? Maybe they hope to twist him into something? I wouldn't underestimate the advantage of having a high ranking member of the enemy faction in your cell.

Sure. Lilith and Inarius are also weak, especially the later. Also, who would want rabid nephalem people? Imagine that Lilith is the Daughter of Hatred and Inarius will be pretty much full of hatred and insane after so long there alone.

Inarius might be mutilated, but he's probably the only Angel that Lilith can hope to get a hold of - for whatever purpose.

 

[deepstrasz]

I don't mind it, to be honest - the idea is that Evils are incarnations of all those nasty stuff like Hatred, Terror, etc. To some extent it does kinda make sense that they can't truly be killed and will reincarnate, just like the Angels. I don't have a problem with that - my only concern is using the same cast of characters. I'm fine with old threats being active again, but I think that D4 should focus on some new villains and if they really want to use some of the old ones, either save them for expansions or use no more than one or two, not the whole gang.

I understand what you mean with those "feelings" basically being part of humanity which can suppress or be taken by them over and over.
However, I really think Diablo, Baal, Mephisto's stories and so on, have been told. We saw them on screen. Now it's time for Lilith, Rathma, Inarius and maybe others we haven't heard of or seen on screen until now.
Just my two cents on them being original.

Don't even remind me of that blunder.

Well, erroneously or not, Diablo (I) did that with the Overlords looking as or being from the same as the Butcher, although Overlords did not have axes.

Funny thing is - they can have Diablo in D4 without actually having him make an appearance by simply having characters reference him from time to time. To me that would be enough. In fact, I'd actually prefer it, because after all the cheesy lines from D3, I need some time to recover from seeing Diablo.

Indeed. Also, Lilith will probably play it safe and make sure none of the pestilent demons make their way to Sanctuary again, that being done off-screen, of course or at least not in a manner where the players have to first defeat those demons again for that to happen.

The point is that the High Heavens are closed and Angels don't care - if Hell attacks Sanctuary, we're on our own and we might need help.

Well, actually if you think about it, the Eternal Conflict is balance unless it shifts toward one of the sides. Maybe Rathma is playing everyone? They still have to tell us what that balance between chaos and order means. I guess, it would be easier to contain the equilibrium if the angel and demon essences are bound as humanity?
If Hell attacks Sanctuary (poor Hell, is in a worse shape than ever before), well, since Diablo I, most of the work was done by the nephalem or humanity anyway
Also, Crusaders and Paladins basically relied on angel help through the Light. I doubt they were leeching Light from them like someone would steal your Wi-Fi

Not really - Lilith was described as a seductress and master manipulator. Heck, if I remember right, she played Rathma or someone else for quite a while. It's possible she could do the same with other Nephalem, especially if they were distracted by something else - like, say, Hell attacking.

I think it was a nephalem called Uldyssian? But it didn't last. Lilith ran from the nephalem in the end. Again, let's see if Tyrael's worst fears come true in DIV.
Even if Lilith is a grandmaster succubus, still only a demon while the nephalem has DIII+expansion experience on demons and their machinations
But again, the nephalem is only one person at this point and if Lilith gains control of humanity, the nephalem might be defeated.

That's curious, because as far as we know Tyrael is locked in Heaven with the Angels, so I doubt we'll be seeing him (which I'm actually happy about). As for the Horadrim... I wonder if they still exist - I mean, I know they did at the end of RoS, but it's been a while, so they might have disbanded or something. Hopefully D4 touches on that.

Really? Are you sure? Adventure Mode has some lore parts and Tyrael is still there with the Horadrim remnants from what I remember.
Also, imagine Tyrael dying and then coming back as an angel xD.

He wanted humanity gone, because he came to a conclusion that due to the evil inside us we're a threat and we should not exist.

Sure but how did that help the Eternal Conflict? It's obvious none wanted it since they all tried to get the most of the other side of the balance.

I'm more interested what would happen if the balance was disturbed - what would happen and would it necessarily have to be bad?

Well, as far as demon rule goes, you can imagine. On the other hand, the only issue would be humanity still being a threat to angels.

If the Nephalem is still around, he's basically a living god - he could easily create his own religion and sell himself as a deity, gaining a ton of followers. With those followers he should be able to control the world, or a big chunk of it.

Yeah, that would make for replayability. Imagine various factions the player has to choose from: Lilith+Rathma (maybe even a schism later between the two), Tyrael+Horadrim, Nephalem+some humans, Demons.

Well, it's possible that after so many years of torture Inarius is super weak, so perhaps his "participation" isn't really required? Perhaps Lilith can just use him?

Lilith will make a living key out of the angel and using this key will sacrifice the angel and open the heavenly gates

Well, wasn't Itherael, the Archangel of Fate, able to see the future? But then again, I think the Nephalem future was something he couldn't see.

Hmm. I don't remember the whole deal but it looks like in DIII, this angel was some sort of historian (video). Well, it does say something about the nephlame's fate being unwritten and fate to be changed so maybe the angel sees or just thinks about the facts?

I'd venture a guess that since we're part-Angel, we have the Light inside us and we don't really need Heaven to use it, but some people who are unaware of our heritage might consider the Light to be something that comes from the Heaven, thus creating a false faith or something.

Well, it has to be decided since Diablo II doesn't say anything about inner Light.

Spoiler

Blessed Aim
The spirits of the Light are ever vigilant, and in times of great need, have been known to aid their loyal disciples in subtle ways. When this aura is enabled, these spirits work to guide the hand of the Paladin and his companions, striking true where blows would normally miss.

Resist Lightning
Even the elements of nature must yield before the glory of the Light. When a knight of Zakarum has manifested this aura, he and his allies undergo a lessening of their body’s natural conductivity, protecting them from attacks empowered by electricity.

They have to decide whether to retcon or not or to do something like StarCraft's Dark and High Templar differences.
External material says the Light was brought by an angel and then they started using it from within afterwards which wouldn't be wrong but would retcon Paladins unless they made the Crusaders do that which I don't remember.

Maybe it's not about whether the subjugation would last, but if Lilith believes that it would?

I think we need a really smart antagonist. Possibly with Rathma's counselling, they'd come a fair and logical realization and it's also why they'd come with solutions.

We don't know what the Hell might want with Inarius - perhaps it's just as you say and they're just having fun torturing him, but... maybe he knows something? Maybe they hope to twist him into something? I wouldn't underestimate the advantage of having a high ranking member of the enemy faction in your cell.

The angels don't care about Inarius. They obviously left the angel to die due to the what was considered treachery. Actually it was more of theft But what Inarius did with Lilith afterwards, meant creating a new danger besides the demons.
Look at Izual (Diablo III cringe is real), they converted the angel into an enemy, well, of course no angel is easily corrupted without those angels having some weaknesses. But you see, if angels have such weaknesses as greed etc. then are angels really pure? For instance Imperius is inquisitive, not quite open minded, easily angered. I don't quite think they properly depicted these shifts. It's never said that there are fallen angels which became demons from what I remember and no demon becoming an angel. Basically, none can change resonance but if demons can corrupt angels, so should angels be able to corrupt demons.
So, I just think demons might have even forgotten about Inarius, lol. Poor sucker or maybe that will make it easier for nephalem to rescue the angel or not because no one knows where the angel is anymore xD?
From what I remember, Inarius wasn't a high ranked angel but maybe something like Izual.

Inarius might be mutilated, but he's probably the only Angel that Lilith can hope to get a hold of - for whatever purpose.

I doubt it. If Lilith can make a nephalem army, Heaven can wait no more. There will probably be a showdown between Imperius and Lilith or the evil nephalem (or player?). Lilith could bide time and use nephalems as battering rams. Patience for immortals is something trivial.

Also, what do you think will happen in the end? Will nephalem become immortal if angels and demons disappear or will they stupidly remain weak mortals?

 

[Augustus]

@deepstrasz

Judging by what they did in the past with the Dark Wanderer it would make sense for Lilith to free Inarius to make more Nephalem only this time the Nephalem are evil. So in D3 you are the Nephalem but in D4 they are evil and will probably bring the three evils back.

As for feelings, it would make a lot of sense that the reincarnation of the Prime Evils is tied to the emotions of sentient beings. It's basically the occult principle of As Above so Below as Below so Above. Meaning what influences the interior world influences the exterior and vice versa. Warhammer also uses this and we all know how much Blizzard loves it.

 

[deepstrasz]

Judging by what they did in the past with the Dark Wanderer it would make sense for Lilith to free Inarius to make more Nephalem only this time the Nephalem are evil. So in D3 you are the Nephalem but in D4 they are evil and will probably bring the three evils back.

Why would the nephalem want to bring the evils back? That's antithetical to what Lilith and Rathma are striving for. Even if the RoS hero becomes greedy, bringing back the evils won't help anyone's cause.

As for feelings, it would make a lot of sense that the reincarnation of the Prime Evils is tied to the emotions of sentient beings

Well, I wasn't referring to dog hosts. Diablo would have a hard time manifesting properly in such a body.
"Not even *bark* death can save you from *bark* me! *howwwwwwlllllll!*

It's basically the occult principle of As Above so Below as Below so Above.

That is basically the primordial principle of the universe which Isaac Newton came to call it for each force, there is an opposing one, the primordial principle being matter and antimatter.

Meaning what influences the interior world influences the exterior and vice versa. Warhammer also uses this and we all know how much Blizzard loves it.

I'd urge them to stay away from games and movies and do some reading on the subject instead.

 

[Augustus]

@deepstrasz

Newton was not only also an occultist but also had the largest occult library in the world at the time.

They are staying away from games and movies. They said their primary inspiration were classical paintings and not comic books and modern media (like it was with Diablo 3). They said they wanted to make it dark and mature, a bit more sophisticated. They hired one of the lead CD Projekt leads to work on the game. I forgot his name.

 

[deepstrasz]

They are staying away from games and movies. They said their primary inspiration were classical paintings and not comic books and modern media (like it was with Diablo 3). They said they wanted to make it dark and mature, a bit more sophisticated. They hired one of the lead CD Projekt leads to work on the game. I forgot his name.

I just hope they weren't only referring to the visual artistic part.

Sebastian Stępień. I read he was the creative director of the third Witcher game and writer for the first and second installments. Not sure what role he has for DIV though.

 

[Augustus]

@deepstrasz He was the Creative Director up until Cyberpunk 2077. He is also the Creative Director of Diablo 4. I think this confirms a more mature tone to the game and less idealistic Overwatch/Modern WoW storytelling. There's nothing wrong with that but it's not Diablo.

Longtime CD Projekt Red dev Sebastian Stępień joins Blizzard

EDIT: I meant Diablo 4

 

[deepstrasz]

He is also the Creative Director of Diablo 3.

I don't think he had anything to do with DIII. Source please.

There's nothing wrong with that but it's not Diablo.

Well, Diablo III was in tone with previous Diablo games then?

 

[Augustus]

@deepstrasz

Oh sorry, I meant Diablo 4.

I meant that they made Diablo 3 cheery and optimistic. It felt like a haloween adventure more than gothic horror. There's nothing wrong with that style but it doesn't work in Diablo.

 

[deepstrasz]

Diablo IV Concept Art and Press Kit Screenshots - Barbarian, Sorcerer, Druid, Lilith

Lots of big images which can be used as wallpapers.

---

courtesy of @tomoraider and @nuck001

 

[deepstrasz]

Diablo IV Hands-on Preview with The Telegraph: Crossplay Coming to D4
Diablo 4 Interview with IGN - Creating the Reveal Trailer and Why It's So Dark

Warcraft 3 Reforged Beta Build 1.32.0.13594 - Undead Models, Sylvanas, Death Knight Hero
Digging the Banshee Sylvanas though as it's less porno than the elf and dark elf versions.

Spoiler

Since the dreadlords don't have tails, none of them, since WoW, they decided it's more vampirish that way although the horns don't fit then.
I think they should at least put tails on some dreadlords.

K, not sure what this is

Spoiler

But Kel'thuzad doesn't look good that way. The FX looks much better in RoC. Hopefully, it's just a glitch.

Scarabs are too similar between levels. Summoned units should be properly differentiated if they decided to go this way.

Shades look like plastic demons.

Spoiler

They should be netherworldly, ghostly. Even the ghosts and banshees are too material but that's how they were in the original, at least.

Deceivers and Fallen Priests are too similar as well as many nude dreadlords.

 

[Uncle Risech]

K, not sure what this is

Spoiler

Maybe it's a ghost that talking to Arthas after Kel'thuzad's death and before his becoming a lich. Looks frozen to me.

 

[deepstrasz]

Em, what?
https://jeux-video.fnac.com/a135684...41e0ef27cff07c205&ectrans=1&Origin=Awin285933

found here I feel disappointed

---

Those weren't orc runes, they were just general runes, similar to the ones we see in Dalaran and Cityscape tilesets.

Actually, it would make sense this way:
Runestone
Ogre Magi were possible by using the high elven runestone.
So, night elves could understand high elven runes although it's a stretch since languages change over time and plus Maiev was not a druid.

Question is, why would Gul'dan write in that language (elven runes) instead of orcish?

 

[deepstrasz]

Diablo IV Class Guides Now Live! - Barbarian, Druid, and Sorceress

Judging by some stuff there, Lilith is the big evil with Hell under the demoness' sway.

 

[deepstrasz]

Stevan Mitrovic on Twitter

Somebody couldn't resist.