Design ideas for Human Ch2: Blackrock and Roll

[Vel (Tien-Yun) Wu]

I am unsure if this is still early enough for a chapter this close (without disclosing or guessing what the actual dev process is), but in my opinion this chapter always seemed too tutorial-ish. It was okay in vanilla since some players may have skipped the Prologue. But with this entire mod, people who can find and install it are probably very familiar with the game. So familiar that a tutorial quest would be unnecessary.

Therefore, past the initial stage where the player is instructed to build a few key structures, I recommend that the quest reference vanilla's Undead Ch6:Blackrock & Roll, Too!, and involve way bigger battles and way more fun factors.

1. Main quest stays similar, but the Blademaster gets a full-fledged base with demonic forces, dragons and more

The main quest objective can still remain just killing the Blademaster, or in this case, I would say destroying his base. Obviously, his base would have to be re-imagined to be much, much bigger and feature way more diverse enemies. I think including some lesser Legion demons like Fel Hound, Succubus, Blood Fiend and/or the Red Dragons that the Blackrock clans are infamous for enslaving would be pretty awesome.

I'd propose referencing this official custom map for building such a custom enemy force:
Monolith

2. Uther gets an allied base, fully developed and he only occasionally helps protecting your base instead of patrolling it full-time.

For this, I'd reference the vanilla Orc Ch8: By Demons Be Driven. In that quest, Jaina has a fully functional base and helps you out.

3. Add 1 or 2 new Orc A.I. players who have their own bases and attack your base very aggressively

These can function similar to ones to Undead Ch6. So the player will have to play seriously. You can also add some rewards to dealing with these extra Orc bases, which brings me to my next point.


4. Expand the player's tech tree so s/he can access cooler units/structures earlier

- When you complete that side quest of helping out dwarves, you would get the ability to build Workshops, Mortar Team, and related researches, not just Rifleman.

- Alternatively, you can get Feranor Steeltoe as a custom hero for the rest of the mission. He gave you that side quest, after all. It would make sense that he joins Arthas as a way to thank him.

- Make Sorceress and Arcane Sanctum available after rescuing some captured Sorceress from possibly one of the new Orc bases

- Make Arcane Tower buildable. The TFT infrastructure has already merged with ROC. In my opinion there is a better reason to introduce this tower variant right now instead of very late in the Blood Elf campaign

Done this way, of course, you'd have to think up something else entirely when the development actually gets to Undead Ch6. And going forward, a lot of the early quests in any campaign will have to have their tutorial portions replaced by fun and epic stuffs. But I'm certain that's something that our talented prime author can ~~~ bring about.

I understand that these are pretty radical ideas so it's fine if they don't all get implemented.

Thoughts and feedbacks welcome. And as usual, our chef Luca is the boss. Thanks for reading.

 

[Khazmo]

I'll quickly point out a few concerns I have with the idea:

1) Orc Dragons - If you give the Orcs dragons at this point then the sidequest to kill Searinox will feel a little pointless. The quest to hunt Searinox serves as an introduction to that type of enemy and its one of those rare instances where dragons get any kind of focal point on them during the storyline. If the Orcs are using red dragons as well then the sidequest gets lost in the crowd. After all, why waste time fighting one black dragon that isn't attacking you when there is a base of red ones on their way.

2) Demons - I'm not really sure about the idea of them getting bloodfiends and other demons as they are supposed to be opening a Demon Gate, so it feels a little unnecessary too. I'm not against giving them a more fleshed out roster from the later missions, but I feel demons should be left out. Granting them some Warlocks or Raiders is one thing, but if you introduce demons too early then it weakens their later arrival.

3) Uthers Base - Not a bad idea but part of me wonders whether it moves the mission too far away from being the tutorial mission for human base building. I mean, this mod is about doing what Blizzard didn't do, rather than creating campaigns purely for experienced players.

4) Expand Techtree - I disagree with this one. A part of what makes each mission enjoyable is that you get access to new technology and units as each mission progresses, which not only gives you something new but it gives you fewer tools to achieve victory earlier in the game which presents a challenge. If you open up the techtree too early then you do not have those rewards for reaching later missions. Also, a lot of units get an introduction via the storyline and it would render thos introductions moot.

5) Feranor Steeltoe - I agree that something should be done about him, but not sure what. Perhaps if he just served as a special "Captain"-level unit it would be enough, rather than as a fully fledged hero. Either that or he could sell special buffs to your forces as armour/weapon upgrades or something.

6) Extra Orc Bases - Might work, depends on the structure of the enhanced mission.


Some quick ideas of my own, none of these are deeply thought out but might provide some food for thought:

1) Ogres - There is a small hidden Ogre Camp in the mission. My suggestion would be to make the Ogres a part of the Orc forces, but to tie them to their own mini encampment elsewhere. If the player wipes out the mini-encampment then the Orcs lose their Ogres and it weakens their forces overall.

2) Murlocs - There's a band of Murlocs near to the Ogres in this mission. This might be an opportunity to use the prologue faction again. For example, they could be a neutral threat that attacks both side, they might be harassing your base early on, or perhaps they are just minding their own business and fighting them yields some reward. Another idea might be that you could have a sidequest to do something that encourages the Murlocs to fight the Ogre encampment, which then deprives the Orcs of their Ogre allies.

3) Syndicate - I think its worth finding some way of bringing them into the mission, even if it is just to serve as creeps.

4) Sacrificial Altar - My suggestion would be to re-arrange the map so the player is forced to fight through the Orc base to reach the sacrificial altar, rather than the current set up which has the two as separate areas.

5) Alteraci Mountains - Consider adding some minor winter effects here and there to show that you're in the mountains, rather than just in a nice pleasant woodland.

6) Gnomish Inventor - In the cancelled Lord of the Clans game there was a Gnomish Inventor workshop in the Alterac Mountains. Perhaps this could serve as a discoverable extra for the player to find, maybe with something to buy, providing a service or giving a sidequest.

7) Murgen Hammerfall's Avalanche - Dwarf Mountain King mentioned as fighting Gnolls and defeating them by bringing an avalanche down upon them. Perhaps the map could be partially blocked off by rock and rubble that needs to be cleared to open a secret path to the sacrificial altar or to something else, but doing so unleashes the Gnolls hidden behind the rubble. Perhaps it could also tie into the Gnomish Inventor by making it difficult for players to reach the Orc base to scout it out which requires hiring a flying machine from him. All sorts of possibilities to be had.

8) Ruined Settlement - Consider editing the map a bit and placing a small hamlet or village somewhere which the Orcs have already culled for sacrificial victims, could work as a place for Syndicate creeps

 

[Ethenil]

One thing that might be interesting is the addition of the Argus Wake - the group of warlocks which rule over the Syndicate later on, led by the orc Nagaz.

Also, what do you think of the notion that the Shadow Council managed to survive amongst the orcs of Alterac? And they later joined the Legion when it moved to Kalimdor, and then restructured their order into what we see in WoW.

 

[Vel (Tien-Yun) Wu]

I'll quickly point out a few concerns I have with the idea:

1) Orc Dragons - If you give the Orcs dragons at this point then the sidequest to kill Searinox will feel a little pointless. The quest to hunt Searinox serves as an introduction to that type of enemy and its one of those rare instances where dragons get any kind of focal point on them during the storyline. If the Orcs are using red dragons as well then the sidequest gets lost in the crowd. After all, why waste time fighting one black dragon that isn't attacking you when there is a base of red ones on their way.

2) Demons - I'm not really sure about the idea of them getting bloodfiends and other demons as they are supposed to be opening a Demon Gate, so it feels a little unnecessary too. I'm not against giving them a more fleshed out roster from the later missions, but I feel demons should be left out. Granting them some Warlocks or Raiders is one thing, but if you introduce demons too early then it weakens their later arrival.

3) Uthers Base - Not a bad idea but part of me wonders whether it moves the mission too far away from being the tutorial mission for human base building. I mean, this mod is about doing what Blizzard didn't do, rather than creating campaigns purely for experienced players.

4) Expand Techtree - I disagree with this one. A part of what makes each mission enjoyable is that you get access to new technology and units as each mission progresses, which not only gives you something new but it gives you fewer tools to achieve victory earlier in the game which presents a challenge. If you open up the techtree too early then you do not have those rewards for reaching later missions. Also, a lot of units get an introduction via the storyline and it would render thos introductions moot.

5) Feranor Steeltoe - I agree that something should be done about him, but not sure what. Perhaps if he just served as a special "Captain"-level unit it would be enough, rather than as a fully fledged hero. Either that or he could sell special buffs to your forces as armour/weapon upgrades or something.

6) Extra Orc Bases - Might work, depends on the structure of the enhanced mission.

As always I appreciate your attention to details.

1) Fair point. I guess we can do without the dragons under Orcs for this one.

2) I see where you're coming from. Here I will refer to Undead Ch08:Under the Burning Sky, where some lesser demons were summoned and put under the player's control before Archimonde arrives. It is from this vanilla game mechanic that I inferred that, in the process of opening Demon Gates/Portals to summon prime demons, the summoning rituals attract and produce lesser demons. This is why I believe my proposal still stands.

3) 4) I can't say I completely disagree with you, so let's say respectfully. My intent is less about making the campaign for experienced players only but more about making it relevant for a 2020 audience. When we already have games like StarCraft 2, where in the 20-mission Heart of the Swarm, you have the 3rd one seeing a major, almost-cinematic full-scale siege on an enemy base, I really think every mission in WC3 needs to pick up the pace and give more actions instead of tutorials. With a 2020 game, the player has probably gone through many multiplayer matches and is familiar with the entire tech tree before s/he plays the campaign. Based on that, a mission whose purpose is being a tutorial wouldn't so much teach the player as it would make itself a wasted opportunity (and a sleep-inducing experience).

5) 6) On these we agree.

I'll quickly point out a few concerns I have with the idea:

Some quick ideas of my own, none of these are deeply thought out but might provide some food for thought:

1) Ogres - There is a small hidden Ogre Camp in the mission. My suggestion would be to make the Ogres a part of the Orc forces, but to tie them to their own mini encampment elsewhere. If the player wipes out the mini-encampment then the Orcs lose their Ogres and it weakens their forces overall.

2) Murlocs - There's a band of Murlocs near to the Ogres in this mission. This might be an opportunity to use the prologue faction again. For example, they could be a neutral threat that attacks both side, they might be harassing your base early on, or perhaps they are just minding their own business and fighting them yields some reward. Another idea might be that you could have a sidequest to do something that encourages the Murlocs to fight the Ogre encampment, which then deprives the Orcs of their Ogre allies.

3) Syndicate - I think its worth finding some way of bringing them into the mission, even if it is just to serve as creeps.

4) Sacrificial Altar - My suggestion would be to re-arrange the map so the player is forced to fight through the Orc base to reach the sacrificial altar, rather than the current set up which has the two as separate areas.

5) Alteraci Mountains - Consider adding some minor winter effects here and there to show that you're in the mountains, rather than just in a nice pleasant woodland.

6) Gnomish Inventor - In the cancelled Lord of the Clans game there was a Gnomish Inventor workshop in the Alterac Mountains. Perhaps this could serve as a discoverable extra for the player to find, maybe with something to buy, providing a service or giving a sidequest.

7) Murgen Hammerfall's Avalanche - Dwarf Mountain King mentioned as fighting Gnolls and defeating them by bringing an avalanche down upon them. Perhaps the map could be partially blocked off by rock and rubble that needs to be cleared to open a secret path to the sacrificial altar or to something else, but doing so unleashes the Gnolls hidden behind the rubble. Perhaps it could also tie into the Gnomish Inventor by making it difficult for players to reach the Orc base to scout it out which requires hiring a flying machine from him. All sorts of possibilities to be had.

8) Ruined Settlement - Consider editing the map a bit and placing a small hamlet or village somewhere which the Orcs have already culled for sacrificial victims, could work as a place for Syndicate creeps

1) 2) 4) I love these. Especially the part where you have the Murloc faction imported from WRR's Prologue and use it here to attack both the player and the Orc bases.

5) I'll have to check the wiki, but if I recall correctly, this mission was explicitly stated to have taken place in summer, to contrast its intended counterpart Undead 06 Blackrock & Roll, Too! taking place in winter.

6) 7) This is great. This side quest could work.

3) 8) The Syndicate could work pretty well throughout the Human 01~05 missions and the entire ROC Undead campaign in my opinion, too. Seeing how this is a human group that is infamously anti-Alliance. We could give it the Orange player color and let it be a side enemy faction that usually has a small-medium sized base somewhere on the map (could also adopt the techtree from WWR prologue's Kul Tirans).

We can of course discuss what it should be doing in each mission where it appears. Like, what is the agenda of this rogue-themed crime organization? How should it behave in each mission which takes place in Lordaeron, such that it's acting in a consistent manner to further that agenda?

what do you think of the notion that the Shadow Council managed to survive amongst the orcs of Alterac? And they later joined the Legion when it moved to Kalimdor, and then restructured their order into what we see in WoW.

I would like this, yes. This goes well with the entire direction of increasing continuity and bridging with WoW's universe

 

[Ethenil]

Additionally, I'd like to point out that the ogres of Alterac should be part of the Crushridge Clan.

 

[Khazmo]

About the Shadow Council, I wouldn't suggest explicitly showing them. If the Orcs are given Warlocks, then that provides a clue as to their existence (perhaps with one of InsaneMonster's lore tips appearing that mentions the Shadow Council). They could later be added as Shadow Council creeps (or maybe more) in a later campaign over in Kalimdor. It's best to tease them early and have a pay off later, rather than reveal too much all at once.

 

[Ethenil]

About the Shadow Council, I wouldn't suggest explicitly showing them. If the Orcs are given Warlocks, then that provides a clue as to their existence (perhaps with one of InsaneMonster's lore tips appearing that mentions the Shadow Council). They could later be added as Shadow Council creeps (or maybe more) in a later campaign over in Kalimdor. It's best to tease them early and have a pay off later, rather than reveal too much all at once.

Having some Orc warlocks amongst the demons in the night elf campaign would be great!