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Build Orders

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Level 10
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Whatchu guys got?

Anything fun and crazy?


Since TvT has turned into mass marine with 1 marauder, (if that), I have started playing with roughly this, still working on it:


11 Gas
12 rax (tech)
-supply
-orbital
18 rax (tech)
18 gas
19 Eng


I need a bunker almost every game, cuz I then spam reapers with that^^

still working on it, but this leads into a 3rd rax with reactor, +1/+1 infantry, into a roughly 9:00ish reaper push, to expo, with rines and about 1 tank to defend.

All the rax switch to reactors, and it easily leads into heavy tank and rine.



Just something I have been playing with!


What are you guys playing with right now?
 
Level 2
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if people mass marines, why dont you make a couple of helions? I personaly like a 4 marine, 2 helion, 1 banshee push. It can deal with almost anything.
 
Level 2
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Another good TvT strategy (if you dont want to play standard) is a 4 blue flame helion drop. Unless they scout you and prepare for it (you can hide it somewhere), you usualy kill the most of his scv and then you fly your helions back and prepare for an attack (he has to attack, or he has lost). Siege tanks are quite good for defending this and you will already have factory with tech lab anyway.
 

Dr Super Good

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Problem with hellions against marines is that hellions durability is not the best. Marines rip them appart pretty well while they also do marines so. If the marines stim they can kill a large number of hellions before you even get into range to start firing (as hellions are best used melee). Logically you can use hellion speed to wear down their HP by forcing false stims. Hellions on the other hand are super effective against zerglings and zealots.
 
Level 40
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Currently I am doing something like this in TvT (4 player maps, long 2 player maps):

10 supply
(scout on 10 or 11, make sure they are not close positions)
12 rax
(if close positions, just go standard from here and stop this build)
15 Orbital Command
2 Marines @ 100% Barracks (rally to low ground in front of natural, deny scouting)
Command Centre at natural @ 400 Minerals
Supply Depot
2 Barracks
Double gas

(go for bio+tanks from here)

Or standard if close positions:

10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 Orbital Command
Factory @ 100 gas
~18 Supply
~19 gas
Reactor after second marine

Transition into Marine Marauder Tank Viking from here, and expand as your first tank is building (and siege mode is researching).

--

TvP is basically exclusively 3rax expand for me as it is super safe and wins against FE Protoss:

10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
Tech Lab on Barracks after first Marine
~17 Supply
~18 Barracks
Stim, Marine @ 100% Tech Lab
Reactor @ 100% second barracks
Third Barracks
Tech lab @ 100% third barracks (produce marauders from tech labs, marines from reactors)
Command Centre @ 400 minerals (cut a few units to do this)
Concussive Shells, Combat Shields when possible (in that order)

--

My TvZ is usually one of the following:

1rax FE:

10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
Marine @ 100% rax
16 supply
Reactor @ 100% Marine, pull guys on gas after gas for Reactor
Command Centre (in base) @ 400 Minerals, put 3 SCVs on gas again
Second Barracks, Engineering Bay, Tech lab on second barracks, supply depot
2 more Barracks with reactors (constantly produce Marines from all barracks, no marauders)
Stim, +1 weapons as soon as possible
Expand as soon as possible (you should have about 6 marines)
Bunker defending natural (prevent a Zergling runby if your CC is near your ramp, as in on maps other than Xel'Naga Caverns and such.
Combat Shields, +1 Armour, 2 more gas, Factory
Push around now (if they have banelings out, you will need to micro, but with stim and without them having baneling speed you should be ok). Try to do some damage but forcing them to make a lot of ling/baneling/roach will also be fine.
Second factory. Transition into Marine/Tank/Thor from here (get a Starport eventually for Medivac drops, Viking harass, etc).

Viking harass into FE:
10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
16 supply
Factory @ 100 gas
Starport @ 100% factory
Reactor @ 100% factory
Command Centre in base @ 400 Minerals
Put Reactor on Starport, produce Hellions and Marines.
4 Vikings, harass overlords, expand to natural with marine/hellion.

--

If they do some sort of roach all-in, get tanks instead of hellions, and you will have to micro your (landed) vikings to live. Otherwise, this comes out significantly before lair tech so you should be able to snipe a lot of overlords and safely expand, and even snipe a queen or two if they don't have lings or spine crawlers nearby to stop you from landing.
 
Level 10
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If they're doing FoxeR style marine play, you may want to get an early ghost academy and get tanks ASAP... don't even bother trying to play banshee harass.

Something like this:

10 supply
12 rax
13 refinery
17 refinery
17 orbital command
17 tech-lab
17 ghost academy

... later on get a factory and start getting siege tanks.

However, I prefer marine play myself and do something like this:

10 supply
11 rax
12 refinery
13 rax
14 orbital command

... continue getting marines + marine upgrades, i.e. stimpack and shields... keep getting more raxes whenever mineral gain outweights marine and SCV production.
 
Level 10
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Messages
655
10 supply
11 rax
12 refinery
13 rax
14 orbital command


Not possible without a LOT of wasted time and/or cutting scv production.

I was a bronze/silver player, doing absolutely NOTHING but changing my game to make scv's constantly, and to never get supply blocked, and I am rolfstomping plat's.

It is extremely important.
 
Level 2
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I wouldnt say its easy to scout. It depends on you. If you block your entrance with a bunker for expample and hide your tech strusctures somewhere, he doesnt really know what to expect.
 
Level 2
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Ye, i have this problem in TvT: i kill all his workers or deny his expo and double expand at the same time, but than i have a lot of minerals and really no way to spend them, because he has a ton of tanks. If i mass marines, they kill em all in one shot. If i mass helions, they dead no demage to the tanks. So what can i do at that point? Any idea?
 
Level 40
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I find it turns into Marine, Tank, Viking, a LOT of the time. Medivacs are common also, but that is what I see a lot of.
I personally play Marine/Marauder/Tank/Ghost, but each to their own. Marine/Tank/Viking is good but not the only way to TvT (also, I would hardly call it "mass Marines").

--

KillMaster, you can crawl with your own tanks (using Vikings to spot), use Nukes to force him to unsiege (cancel the nuke and stim in when he unsieges), use Banshees/Battlecruisers if you dominate the skies, etc.
 
Level 2
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ye sure, that would work, but the problem is i usualy have tons of minerals, but no gas although im mining from 6 gaysers... it just isnt enough.
 
Level 10
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10 supply
11 rax
12 refinery
13 rax
14 orbital command


Not possible without a LOT of wasted time and/or cutting scv production.

I was a bronze/silver player, doing absolutely NOTHING but changing my game to make scv's constantly, and to never get supply blocked, and I am rolfstomping plat's.

It is extremely important.

Actually, I only lose a couple of seconds of SCV production, it just requires you maximise mineral gain properly by sending the SCV's to the correct patches (i.e. the closest ones). Since you're using marines, excess minerals are going to come fast and a quick expansion will remove any SCV disadvantage you had.

It's good that you are "roflstomping plat's", but I am a diamond player and this works against other diamond players.
 
Level 40
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It's good that you are "roflstomping plat's", but I am a diamond player and this works against other diamond players.
I'm a diamond player and your build is cheesy and bad unless you are aiming to do some sort of 3 marine 1 scv style push, and basically everything works against diamond players so that isn't a high standard.
 

Dr Super Good

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A lot of people make it to dimond apparently relying on a "cheese" stratergy. It works great until they encounter people who know how to handle it and as such they start to lose. This means that dimond get some people who rely on cheese rather than skill to win and when they try using skill or fighting a better cheese they lose.

A common example is a DT rush. Although it can hardly be called a rush at the time it comes it still is early dark templars (due to streamlining towards them) which would completly fail against better players who would just plonk some detectors as soon as they feel it comming and frankly DTs are made of paper they die so easilly. However even against diamond players it still works sometimes cause some of them have never seen a DT rush (or whatever) pulled off before and never expect it.

The same applys to real life... Just because you rule a country does not mean you are a good ruler or even smart.
 
Level 22
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A lot of people make it to dimond apparently relying on a "cheese" stratergy. It works great until they encounter people who know how to handle it and as such they start to lose. This means that dimond get some people who rely on cheese rather than skill to win and when they try using skill or fighting a better cheese they lose.

I don't use the word 'cheese'. Sounds silly. I call standard strats and .. I guess the other non-standard. It sounds to me like noobsd use it (when I lower league in my 1st beta games they cried I cheese). For me this doesn't exist, I even hail those who win with standard.

Example of someone winning vs me I respect such players: TvT Playing normal we even do the same units etc, lots of battles, I won and just when i think he;s gg he coutners me I become less supply then it turns out he has expand(s) more so I lose. Interesting game and that's a gg i.e cheese ? I like it. I smile and I say (if I knwo he copied it fromtop replay) ahh so he learnt to do it, nice, that's skill.

Example of non cheese, no respect for such: TvT on SStation, he's gold at 400 games which is like war3's level 27-30 at 200-300-400 games i,e pretty bad but there was decay there still those who made it just couldnt go higher for less games, not decay.

So he goes banshees that i stop ofc, then he starts making battlecruisers (Wtf mass air !? reminds me of the SC times in the 90s when I wasw a kid and we attacked each otehr with MASS carriers/BCs/ Guardiands/Devourers no Ground, NO Skill!), I do vikings and in some of his attacks he loses those BCs I even thought he's gg. Then we both have expands, I needed some strong counter as he had 5-6 BCruisres, I stared making vikings but mostly was 30-40 marines as he did just air units as if that's FFA. So his bc's became 10 with some vikings, my marines 40 and vikings, the marines kinda died I had to retreat, as I lost units, I couldn;t stop that.

If you call that non-cheese (yes) but skill, I beg to differ. I rolfed at that loss but you know, shit happens. There are such lamers that do something stupid and win and cause you are used to playing normal, you know... But stats and games speak for themselves. In war3 I can tell you such mass games+low levels were doing mass towers and trying smth lame non-standard that ofc didnt work 90% of the cases,

My message: Watch top replays learn from them, play like them. You can change smth to fir your style, e.g I sitll have lots of my own ideas but it has a basis of smth seen. Or if you try to be smart not learning from replays, you will likely end up like those at 400 games low league, doing smth silly that doesnt win 90% then when they match bronze due to too many losses, it works there lol.
 

Dr Super Good

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Cheese as far as I can tell is the action of using a rush stratergy which is usually easy to counter but deadly if you fail to do so. For example spamming photon cannons in an enemies base as protoss is refered to as cheese as you litterally can not do anything if it gets pulled off but it is easy to stop, kill pylons or prevent them from advancing with your own etc.

Another cheese strat is apparently dumping command centres into your enemie's base and upgrading them to PFs. Logically you just send units like SCVs to block them from landing and shoot the crap out of them with marines/ other air. If they however pull it off they are pretty much ruined as their economy is killed and they can not build anything capable of taking one PF out let alone 2+.

Fact remains that people often think they were cheated out of a win by a "cheese" stratergy so it is used often incorrectly as a scape goat for their lack of skill or for meeting their match. All cheese strats are perfectly fair however they are not instant win and can give you free wins if you can counter them.

Never make marines against battle cruisers, its like colossus with marines. Battle cruisers just have too much health and armor to be killed easilly by marines while they kill marines pretty effectivly. In that situation you described I am guessing you are after going all with vikings cause they hard counter both other vikings and BCs. Additionally using extra minerals to missle turret would be effective cause the BCs would have to eithor yammato them / attack them (which saves your vikings giving you the edge) or risk taking additional damage from them (making up for lost vikings due to yammato) while attacking your vikings.
 
Level 10
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My build isn't cheesy, you are assuming that. Please don't judge anything without actually seeing it in progress, which you probably never will as I barely play. I do not use that build every game, it is just 1 of the standard marine openers I use. Also Note that those supply values may or may not be accurate, I actually go off the game clock for builds, I care not for the supply I am at those times, as in every game I will have the same supply at those times.

My build is not a rush strategy, it is simply using marines as a staple unit. Marines currently are the most cost effective unit (in terms of cost:damage) when they have stimpacks. A group of well commanded marines can take out a wide variety of armies, even against siege tanks (spreading marines or fodder trails). If you've seen FoxeR play in the GSL you will understand that I play very similar to him, although obviously he is much better at marine play than I am.
 
Level 22
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Well then if this isn't part of the skill or should I say it shows part of how unskilled an opponent is if he suffers a loss due to unexpected units, well, I don't know what it is XD

Are there really such diamond, DSG? Cause what I saw happened vs my bronze opps in my 1st games in sc2 beta before I climbed. So since gold/plat they know to scout/scan etc.
 
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Imtor said:
So since gold/plat they know to scout/scan etc.
I don't know who you've been playing, but gold/plat players don't scout, and even if they did they wouldn't know what the fuck to do about it.

Cheese is pretty viable even in super-high level play, by the way.

BoneBreaker said:
I care not for the supply I am at those times, as in every game I will have the same supply at those times.
Yeah, that's a lot better than copying builds based on supply count. The best way to tailor a build is to practice the general idea behind it as much as possible, try out all the combinations, and the timing will iron itself out, if you've been practicing right.

It's funny when people ask me about my build orders, because I don't really have any other than a super early game build order that might have two variations...? The rest of my build orders are pretty much building orders which rely on planting down buildings whenever you can afford them.
 
Level 40
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BoneBreaker, if you don't do super early aggression (to the point of being almost cheesy) with that build then you are significantly behind, so it's a pretty cheesy build whether you use it as one or not. There is no reason not to do something like

10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 rax
16 reactor
16 rax
18 supply

If you don't want to do super early pressure.
 
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