BUGS!

[Moderator]

04:10, 25th Dec 2009
ap0calypse: Approved

 

[dragor-X]

Seems nice ^^ I evaluate your map (without any test) to 4/5
I'll test it to give a real rating.

 

[D a w n]

the ai could be a bit better because they were lvl 25 when I was lvl 40 D:

 

[Slasher]

Very interesting and orginal map. I like it
But when computer players digged into the ground, they didn't know how to destroy those rock so they were stucked there all the time.

 

[Royy]

Wow, great idea! And great terrian/model use. But could use some work, the game is really boring in perspective (no offense) because there isn't all that much gameplay wack some insects and...that's it.

1. You really need to add multiple heroes that are more dynamic (such as picking an ant for a hero) and adding tech trees to those heroes (such as becoming a worker ant, warrior ant, queen ant, fire ant, black ant, possiblities could be endless!)

2. Also, events to the game could spice the game up some (such as a human walking over the battlefield) plus weather (such as rain forcing ants under)

3. I really love the terrain, but it needs some more diversity, maybe a puddle? A log? Rather than just an assortment of flowers and rocks. And have different types of insects spawn in different areas (Beastles/worms in logs, flys/dragonflys in ponds maybe even frogs?)

4. You should really change ants some, they should be swarm a whole lot more rather then just spread out (but if you aren't for the sake of tuning lag down, that's fine), but atleast make them have colonies that go underground and above with queens and such.

5 (I'm talking about AI) Adding onto 4 you should change the respawn of bugs into something more orginal, like ants being hatched by the queen and their population unchecked would be amassed, or like spiders having them lay eggs.

6. You really need to change up burrow because it's sort of annoying for battle, it's just running away. What i suggest you should do is while you burrow you not be invunrable and have the cast time be abit longer, i doubt anything can go under so quickly.

OR

You could make it act as sort of a waygate, espically if you add in ants, you spend like 20 seconds digging and you have a waygate under. And from there anyone could fill up the hole again.

7. Day and Night possibly? Have all the day time insects go under the ground or hide and have things such as moths and spiders come out? Limited sight/ect.

8 1 kill=1 level? What if an ant takes down a spider? You really need to add an actual exp system really

9. Possibilities of allying? Or game modes? Such as banding together to destroy ant colonies or spider hives?

10. Bees with honycombs would be cool, they could act as sucide bomber types?

11. Not sure how you would fix this, but spiders and ants shouldn't be allying up to destroy me

3 out of 5 as is

 

[Chuchurute]

i liked it but is liked Rovy said, after some time it becomes boring, try to implement it
3/5

 

[baassee]

really the AI is a little weird thought and the name too, thought it was a bug finding mini game or somethin like as Dondustin says you get alot more xp then the ai, maybe something like dxp for computers would be nice

 

[Interium]

1000/1000
It's very interesting and funny map. I like it too...

 

[TheBlooddancer]

You misspelled a couple of things.

Such as in the Vampirism skill.

• You should add more stuff, like more modes (Find the treassure?)
• More skills
• More high levels
• Ennemies (Creeps) which would evolve too.
• Better food

 

[MoCo]

Thanks for all the comments so far!

Phew... Royy, this is really a bunch of constructive feedback.. but these are very good ideas!

The scenario seems to offer a lot of possible and interesting gameplay aspects I haven't even minded so far. I hope I'll find some time, to continue working on this map. I think the overall map size has to be enlarged, it maybe a bit too small right now.. (?)

If there is someone, who wants to help on this project, please feel free to contact me..

@TheBlooddancer: Could you send me a list with all misspelled things? That would be great!

and hell yeah: the ai really sucks right now

 

[RaidonGod]

hmm like spore in first phase xD
eat, adapt skills from others and evolve^^
nice but AI is a little bit dump =/
anyway: 3.9/5^^

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Well, the only thing that i remember is that you wrote something wrong in that Vampirism spell. Something that should have been 'Like this' but you wrote 'Lik ethis'.
No big deal, overall great game, but i would love to see more modes, more 'bosses' more special features and more stuff happening underground.

 

[TM-Magic]

The idea of this is definitely a good one that needs pursuing and the terrain is nearly flawless, though I found a lot of things that made the overall game very lacking. A little fixer up and it'd be awesome.

First off, the AI, like everyone else said, TOTALLY SUCKS. They run around and randomly attack you, which is cool, but they all gang up on you. Lucky for you, I've been working on a spore map (which I just discontinued) with really good AI for the same type of thing. First off, go into Advanced -> Gameplay Constants and find 'Creeps - Guard Distance', 'Creeps - Return Distance', 'and Creeps - Return Time (sec)', 'Creeps - Max Creep Camp Radius' and set all those values to 0. Then on ur creep bugs, set the accusation range equal (or just above) the attack range. All of this will make it so that ur creeps don't gang up on people.

Also I noticed ur AI all kinda clumped up, I don't know your triggers so I don't know why they do that, but they do.

Second of all, I noticed the game is really hard to start off and really easy towards the end. At level 1, I was mauled by bugs of all kinds, who actually ganged up and raped me on several occasions. Maybe start off with a lot of easier bugs and a few nasty ones, and add more hard ones as the game progresses.

I like how you need to "earn" your abilities by killing so many of a certain kind, definitely a good idea, but maybe add more of these? I'd like to see a few more abilities to spice up the game. You may want to think about expanding the terrain a bit, then you can add more bugs with more collectible abilities.

The underground area is a good idea, I like how there are DIFFERENT bugs down there, but it doesn't feel like there's enough going on down there for all that space. Maybe add an ant colony?

Also, as the other people have said, the experience gain is a little wacko. Maybe add a simple exponential requirement and gain? For example, have level 2 require 100 xp and have caterpillars give 10 xp, and have lvl 3 require 300 xp and have another bug give 20. This way if you take down a higher level than your suppose to, you gain a ton of experience and little if you play it safe and eat the little guys. This would add a lot more dynamic to the game.

I suppose that's all I got for now. 3/5 for now, but I know this could definately get better.

 

[Tanasren]

Huu what a nice map !

I like the landscape which i found amazing ! I really thought i was a bug !
Same for models and the evolution (when u kill 5 bugs).
But you should add events, secrets things, challenges (and maybe change the goal because getting lvl 70 is for cowards xD). By these i mean : "kill the huge spider" "kill the carnivour plant" "find an ant egg and feed it (by giving the food items)" "kill red ants and ally with black ants" "kill black ants and ally with red ants" "kill the two antqueens" "find the secret place (with tunnels etc...)" and those must be find by players, not told by the tips !
Others things you can add:
- snails and slugs must be stronger (hard to kill), must give a lot of exp and must be bigger !
- the black ants fight the red ones under the ground and also kill earth worms etc...
- the huge spider stays at the same place but kills everyone in her range
- when you kill an entire ant colony, the other one pops out from the ground and attack everyone (creeps too but during this time they resurect faster) until the queen is dead.
- when you kill an ant queen but not the colony they will surely perish by the other one (so the queen gives an aura or smthg like that to the ants), if you help them, and do some actions with their eggs, you can make a new queen to born and the fight takes place again.
- i think a lot of bugs should fight others but it may be hard to do :x
- add more "evolutions"
- add secrets things in the ground
- add more items
- we should be able to choose which bug we want cause models are very nice (and we can fight our own specy/family)
- bugs might change when a timer ends or when a big bug is killed (and all evolve or all replaced) like in dbz tribute map
- change experience gain

I surely said many times the same things xD but take care of that comment and the others too ! this map has a great potential !

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Making creeps attack creeps, isnt that hard. Just make a time trigger, that makes everybody allied to Neutral hostile, to (1/10 chance) attack a nearby creep.

Then also add a new trigger, which is something like 'A unit is Attacked' And then, order the attacked unit to attack the attacker. Phew.

 

[MoCo]

Thanks for all the new suggestions.. awesome!

I'm probably gonna start working on a new version tonight.

Creeps no longer ganging up and attacking themselfes should be very cool indeed..

You may also use the development thread http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/f202/bug-evolution-one-day-bugs-life-107133/ since I would like to put new updates and testing version there first.. So if you like, please post comments / suggestions there too, because it really lacks of any feedback so far.. :/

I'll add everyone who was helpful with testing and suggestions to the credits of course.

 

[TM-Magic]

Blood's right, its easy to do in GUI, you can even add an if then that figures out if the bug has lower hp, and if it does, runs and heals, if not, attacks the attacker.

If you'd like some help doing a few changes, I'd be willing to give some. A lot of people have given a lot of different advise. If you try and satisfy them all, your map will be too complicated and gameplay will fail. Keep it relatively simple to pick up on.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Blood's right

I've allready asked him what kind of JASS this uses, as i see this could be done easy in GUI, cause you only controll one unit at a time, and its the same unit all the time.

 

[MoCo]

Blood's right, its easy to do in GUI..

And even more easy to do in vJass..

 

[TM-Magic]

Depends. I'd say it'd be a good thing to add to the creeps as well.

 

[MoCo]

Definitely and it will make the world feel more lively.

I guess I'm gonna start with improving the AI, map enlargement and an XP sys..

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Definitely and it will make the world feel more lively

I owuld love you if you made shops etc. Or gold-mine-ish things where you could harvest food.

Also, it would be lovely, if you could create a 'non-survival'-ing, where you wernt un-allied with other players, and could mate etc, and build houses and so on.

 

[MoCo]

One the one hand, I really like the quality and quantity of your feedback!
One the other hand, I just get mad about how long the to-do-list is getting.... (just kidding)

But yeah.. some commands for the host would make sense. -dm, -teamdm, maybe even species team up.. different game modes and such.

EDIT:

Does anyone know, how to prevent creeps from running back to their initial positions after move orders?

 

[Seralas]

Looks like an interesting map. Will give it a try

 

[TM-Magic]

Do what I said in the first post. Go into Advanced -> Gameplay constants and look for Creep. Set all those values to 0.

 

[MoCo]

I'm now using guard dist = 0, and guard return dist/time = 9999. All values zero hasn't worked for me, because units fastly moved back to their positions then. But it's working fine now.

 

[TM-Magic]

Interesting, I set all mine to 0 and they act fine.

 

[Tanasren]

Making creeps attack creeps, isnt that hard. Just make a time trigger, that makes everybody allied to Neutral hostile, to (1/10 chance) attack a nearby creep.

Then also add a new trigger, which is something like 'A unit is Attacked' And then, order the attacked unit to attack the attacker. Phew.

I meant it would be hard to play with, because it will lag (maybe), no ?

As for adding shop, i think this is not a great idea, the best aspect of this map is the ambience (i mean we really think we are bugs xD) !

 

[MoCo]

I've already started working on the new version and I've implented a new Creep AI, that makes creeps attack each other (if they are a different race).

But Tanasren youre right in wondering if this might cause lag. There has to be a lot of calculation in short time intervals to get it working smootly. There are about ~100 creeps active at all times and the AI has to check about every second, if there are any possible targets in their range.

I haven't tested it in B.Net so far, but it works very fine on my pc, lucky that I haven't discovered performance issues so far. I'm using indexed arrays to handle the huge amount of creeps, I think that should be faster than unit groups or something.. (?!)

To give some more preview on the new version:
larger terrain with new spots, a bee hive (bees will be day-active), two different ant colonies fighting each other, an XP system, weather and other new stuff.

 

[TM-Magic]

Nice. The new update sounds packed full of goodness. As for creeps AI, it really depends on how you write it and how much smoothness your willing to sacrifice. On my spore map I generally have 3 AI triggers per phase (actually land and up is a bit more complicated so its more than 3). First it checks what the AI eats. If they're herbivore, they find something to eat, if they're carnivore, a number between 1-3 is generated, if the number is less than 3, it attacks a random unit in the area of 3000, then 1000, then 500 (so it finds closer targets) and if it is 3, eats meat within 3000, 1000, 500. Then if its an omnivore, it generates a number between 1-3, if its less then 3, finds plants to eat, if it is 3, generates a random number between 1-3 and if its less than 2 finds and attacks a unit int he area of 3000, 1000, 500, and if its 3, eats meat within 3000, 1000, 500. (All of this is done every 12 or so seconds)
(The second AI triggers when the AI eats plants or meat, and orders them to eat another one nearby.
The third AI trigger grants xp and levels them up and gives them random stats.)

I'm using roughly 25 computer units (Neutral Hostile), this system has NO lag on my computer, even while running a second monitor, playing a movie. So idk I doubt it would lag without all those extra calculations, even with 100 units.

I'm using a NVIDIA 8800 GS graphics card, Intel Celeron D (3.33GHz 3.35GHz) cpu, with 2.00 GB ram (on vista).

 

[Seralas]

I checked out the map and it looks to be a very solid and workable base from which a truly excellent map could be launched. The update looks to be a definite "must have".A couple of things that I did notice in the game, one which has been mentioned (i think), and the other that hasn't been mentioned.

The first is that one gains a level for killing a creature down to a certain level below ones own. That is fine. However, one gets the same level for killing a creature which may be 2x ones own level. Was this a gameplay aspect, or just a temporary levelling system?

The second point has to do with the food on the map. It would be nice if the amount of food on the map could perhaps have a max amount on the map, because when i was playing, by the time I clocked it, the ground had masses of food on it. A sub point of this, which will no doubt be addressed as seen fit, is that there is only a single variety currently, as mentioned already.

Having observed the above two minor points, I would like to say that I could never achieve a map like this (at the moment...maybe with months/years of learning hehe). But I have played a large number of custom WC maps, so I'm bound to hit on some valid points occasionally
(and I should get round to introducing myself onto these forums sometime also

 

[MoCo]

Hey Seralas, thanks for your comment.

The upcoming XP system for the new version will make level gain more complex since higher levels grant more XP. For example, if you are level 1 and kill a level 5 creep, you won't just become level 2, but 3 or 4.

Edit: Thanks for the hint, there was a bug within the food system preventing old food from not being removed after some time.

Right now, I'm working on a little alliance system, that offers you the possibility to ally with up to 3 (?) other players.

Most of the other stuff is finished already. Maybe I put a prerelease-version fpr testing to the thread within the next days.

 

[Ice_Eagle]

I like the concept, makes it play like SPORE a little, but I wish you could make your OWN bug... like be an ant, or a spider, a dragonfly, etc.
Add more adaptable abilities.
Creeps ought to attack one another i.e. spider attacks ants, worms, etc.
Experience-based leveling would make it a bit better, because if you kill a first-level bug at level 20 you shouldn't get 1 level, you'd get small amounts experience.

 

[MoCo]

OK, a new version (1.4) is ready for testing - please check out!

(http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/f202/bug-evolution-one-day-bugs-life-107133/)


So far, the new version takes care of a lot of the points you've mentioned.

There are still some remaining things I hadn't enough time to add so far like different classes for example.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

MoCo, never use commands for game-modes. Its so simple. Use dialogs!

Also, for the 'creep going back' you can just every 8 seconds, order all creeps to 'attack - move to' and then their location (Saved in an variable ofc). That way, unless you have some unit, that moves 9999 in less than 8 seconds, and fights lasting 60 seconds +, it will be no problem. Also, i would like to see an update

 

[TM-Magic]

Alright I tested your 1.4. Btw, having a version number 1.4 and calling it a beta...just sounds wrong. To be truthful, your 1.0 should really be 0.20 and this new one maybe around 0.30. 1.0 is suppose to be when its all 100% done, and after are updates. But w/e.

Alright, the AI looks a hell of a lot better in all ways. I did have a slight problem with ks though. Often, I'll see 2 AI duking it out (creeps or computer players) and they'll both be at red and so I just use Impale and they both die, granting me all the xp for doing basically nothing. Usually I'd say its no big deal, but it happened a lot.

Second, the poison sting is a good idea, allows you to hit air and grants +5 attack, however, it seems a little overpowered. Air units seem to grant a lot of xp for attacking them twice. Maybe add a little more meat to them and let them run away at half hp? Idk I still think creep AI should include running away at lower hp, making you chase them (like any smart player would do). I noticed you already added that for computer players.

Although this maps greatly improved on the AI front and seeing the ants battle it out is awesome, it still has a major problem which makes it very lacking. Luckily, I think I understand what that is.

The xp gain is a hell of a lot better and it increases at a good rate, however the game still seems "slow" if you will. The first few minutes of the game are EXACTLY like the last few minutes. Except its easier as I said in a previous post, (which needs to be fixed in itself). And although the terrain and AI is unique, the gameplay is lacking, and there isn't much to do, and you feel imprisoned by what is given and what you have to do. You fight bugs and when you fight bugs, there's only so many things that give a player an advantage. A) your bug is a higher level, or B) you have more food. The thing that is missing is the skill.

I would suggest adding random stats and/or stats you can pick to give the player so that bugs are more unique. (and like I said add more of those abilities you gain through eliminating a certain number of a species). Also, the game seems slow because the units are slow. You attack...wait...get attacked...wait...attack... wait...get attacked...ect...ect...ect. I would suggest making it smoother, faster attacks and faster movement speeds. Also, you could add some line of sight blockers in the tall grass allowing you to evade someone based on your movements and its speed.

Also I'd suggest a different camera angle, either farther out, completely top down, (not angled at all), or a closer almost 1st person view. Either way, it'll make your terrain stand out. If you go with the first idea, it'll make it feel more bug like, or rather, like ur a human "possessing" a bug. If you do a low-to-the-ground view, you'll feel more like the bug and the terrain will really stand out.

Another thing is, the food seems a little...generic, the mushrooms are good though. Maybe add splotches of food, as if someone dropped something? or make land marks that give food or something. What I mean is, food that behaves a little more like food, not just some random piece of grass. Just a thought.



I know I'm asking a lot, but remember, these are just suggestions, because I think I truly know what makes a good game.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Still- More bosses. Its hard to gain levels, when there's no high-lvl monsters (If your enemies are weak/CPU players).

Also, you should make some fat-ass worm, underground, that kills rocks, and bugs.
It should be some 'ultra' monster.

 

[TM-Magic]

Lol, I'd agree with that, as a low level, there's plenty to eat and run from, maybe even too much for new players. Then, as you progress there's less to eat and less to threaten you. It's one of the main problems...it starts hard and gets easier.

While I was testing 1.4, the AI and other creeps were killing the giant spider and I ended up being able to kill it when it was at maybe 5% hp...and if you don't kill the spider and the carnivorous plant, your going to be fairly low on xp with little hope to win vs a higher leveled player. The game may as well end there, or actually the game ends fairly soon, when you start out as a lower level. There is no way to "get back into the game" if you will.

 

[MoCo]

As always TM, your points are very well minded (hope this is correct english?!) and I agree with you.

So there are still a lots of things that can use some work. For now, I guess I should concentrate on the things that are most important, which seems to be the basic gameplay fundament.

You're right. It really should be just the other way than it is now: easy in the first place and getting harder to the end. And it seems to be a good idea making it more fast-paced, more depending on player skills and micro management. More abilities probably will increase the quality and complexity of the gameplay. And I also think that it can use more depth in playability and such.

I'm gonna take some time to think about all the points.. I'll also try the new camera angles etc..
Seems like a lot of work to do..

Thanks again for the big bunch of new input.. your feedback helps a lot and might cause this 'fun-project' (in the first place) to become a real nice map.

Concerning the fat-ass giant worm, I already thought about using this model: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models.php?id=fnr2cn&prev=search=worm&d=list&r=20
But it has a pretty huge filesize and I want to keep the map as small as possible.. so let's see... There should be more insect models... A giant grasshopper or frog would be awesome..

 

[TheBlooddancer]

That worm is Win. I demand you to use it.

Also, i like that creep kills creeps, but once in a while, i, in lvl 10 or so, encounter an almost dead lvl 40. Then i just use food, and rampage it, and level like hell. You might get some way, to ensure that the killer, had atleast 60 of the total Dmg.

 

[MoCo]

I hoped to find another way because this sounds very complicated to do.. hmm...

Would be much easier to make food 'non-combat-usable' ^^

Bosses could be stronger so it will require not just simply attacking but maybe a little bit of micro/tactics to kill them..

So with all these fundamental changes to do, I maybe also start creating different hero classes..

 

[Tanasren]

Very nice fat ass worm

As for the battle between ants (one of my idea but maybe not only mine ^^) IT ROXXED !
When you kill the Queen, it ends spawning !
But you should improve their lvl to give more xp, or give stats, or give ability or items !
The evil spider should give only xp (like it is).
I found the camera too far but just rolled up the button on the computer mouse and it was fine.
You surely should add more ACTIVES skills :
- a spit which deal high damage but can be avoid by running, as a missile
- find spells that requires skills, to combine, to avoid, to target...

You should also make the plant to aattack each other, it seemed like it didn't work, and add MORE HP cause it should be THE BOSSES.
Add more life to snails and armor plz ! and more lvls

Yep it's a fuckin nice game !
I will really follow it !
thx MoCo !

 

[TM-Magic]

I'd offer a lot of help, but idk if you want GUI in ur map. That and I have a lot of work to do myself, as you know.

Maybe if you need some quick help or something...nothing too major, I can help.

 

[MoCo]

Is there something special you would like to do/help with?

I really can use some help on the abilities. Any suggestions and ideas for interesting/funny/tactical/whatever spells and abilties are very welcome!

If you want, I can send you the source so that you can take a look at things..

I really like the the idea of the spit you could evade through running away. This is a good example for a typical combat ability that will feature the skill/micro aspect of the gameplay.

 

[TM-Magic]

First of all, you should think about putting these spells into spellbooks, maybe 2, one for passive and one for casting abilities. The spit ability is definitely a good investment...Idk, abilities aren't usually something I invest a lot in. It's very hard to add skills that add micro management to the table when ur talking about a single unit. And even then, this is a bug world and some abilities wouldn't fit, such as blink. Maybe a fly away ability? or Jump rather? Evasion, critical strike and bash are always good, but it really depends on if your getting them at a certain level or by doing something for it (like how the current abilities are). Assuming your going to keep doing it like it is, it wouldn't be bad to add.

Idk if you've taken a look at my spore map at all, but the abilities that you can pick in there at phase 3 are basic passive ones. (Passive because u'll be controlling a bunch of units at once later on). But in there you get to pick what you upgrade and they have evolution type names like "Sharpen Claws" (critical strike) and "Grow brigger hands" (bash). [I'm hoping to give u a few ideas here, not necessarily do this]

Hmmm...yeh Idk about abilities, their not usually my department. I'm good with game balance and gameplay. When I started making my zergling blood map (based on the starcraft zergling blood) the idea was there, it all worked how it was suppose to and the units were balanced, but it was still lacking. So I worked with it and discovered I could make it a hell of a lot funner if I made everything work faster. Units already died fairly fast, but I made it even faster, and move faster and get gold faster and now even I enjoy playing it even after hundreds of times of playing. It's funny how much something small like a little speed can change the game. I'd just have to say that even in real games today, I think a lot of gameplay is missing that was lost since the early days of gaming. Anyways that was my rant today.

 

[Tanasren]

Cool, i'm gonna try your zergling blood map !

Two book spells is necessary cause players want more than 4 abilities. I think, if it's possible, to make the active abilities in the "normal book of spell" but add one or two books for others things like "Dig", "Alliance", "Passives skills".

As for the spit, this should be the funniest spell in this map because it's hard to add "bugs spells" which requires skill/micromanagement.

A jump would be very nice too, with a little aoe when you come back to the ground with damages (not too much) and a little stun.
A "push horn", for the scarab bug or for a strong bug like scorpion, where you push away the target and stun it for 1 second, if you combine it with the stun of the jump spell, you might be able to push the target two or three times farther ^_^' (so you can push ennemies in the evil spider etc...)
A sprint would be cool too, with a cooldown and a high cost in mana or even life (HP) cause it would help to avoid the spit.
You should also add a better poison, an active one where you bite the opponent and it slows him during 5 sec...
An the last idea, a chitinous shield which add armor, but slows down, lol i know this sux but you can make something with it (maybe if u improve it).

PS : - You should increase damage and life, and armor of the EVIL SPIDER beause at lvl 50 it's so easy to kill it alone (with one or two food). No one should attack it or only the strongest bugs but it must attack everyone and don't care if it one shot players lol.
- Bees can suicide themselves with a huge attack when under 50 HP xD
- Spiders mustn't fight others ones (don't know if it is already done)

Ok, i'm gonna wait for news, good luck MoCo !

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Make a boss, that gives REALLY much dmg, but has a turn rate of 6 or such. That way you will have to attack it from the back.

 

[Tanasren]

So what happens now ?

 

[MoCo]

I was really busy with rl stuff within the last time and bit lacking in motivation. I think I continue working on this after a short break.