Big Bang Question.

[Mr. Bob]

I have a great fascination for the Big Bang theory. Even though, I don't believe crap about it because of the amount of holes in the theory. (Which I do not wish to discuss here, due to the potential 'flame wars' that can arise from it.)

Anyway, I was wondering about the beginning stages of the 'Big Bang'. Why was the matter compressed? Well, I asked around with some people I know, and they all say basically the same thing. Gravity, compression, and such.

Ok. Then I wondered, well were did the compressed matter come from? Because, according to the same scientists, you can not create or destroy matter. But, if so, that means that matter and existence is infinite.

I asked, 'so the universe is infinite'? And they said, 'yes. Not only is it infinite, but we are doomed to repeat the 'Big Bang' over and over again, due to infinity.'.

So, this led me to this 'How can a mechanical process (Big Bangs) repeat if according to scientists, you can not have a mechanical system operate without a source of cause?'. They said, 'Well, since there is not enough energy to have the mechanical system run, it is slowly dieing down to nothing.' But, that doesn't work because of infinity. But, even if it did:

Where the heck did the cause of the mechanical system to run repeatedly in an infinite universe come from? There had to be some external energy, or cause to come into effect.

So, I figure, there are some smart people on the Hive, so I assumed that somebody here could shed some light on the matter. Please?

What caused Cosmic initiation?

 

[Gausslander]

You asked quite a few questions.

I don't know much about the big bang theory, but from what I do know I think I can help you clear your mind a bit.

Firstly, the theory does not state that any matter is created or destroyed, merely expanded. Merely what they think could be in nature's arsenal and what is currently going on with the drift of space matter.

Secondly, the infinite cataclysms and re-expansion part of the theory derives from all of the planets and moons still (this is true) sifting closer and closer to the center of the universe; or apart (my knowledge is pretty sketchy).

Thirdly, the form of Infinity that you are bringing up doesn't have all that much to do with it; it's mostly just a theory that somewhat explains what could've made the universe how it is, and what is in works right now and what we can expect to happen to separate space matter once more and continue the existence of the universe in a predictable, reoccurring state.

 

[Mr. Bob]

You asked quite a few questions.

I don't know much about the big bang theory, but from what I do know I think I can help you clear your mind a bit.

Firstly, the theory does not state that any matter is created or destroyed, merely expanded. Merely what they think could be in nature's arsenal and what is currently going on with the drift of space matter.

Secondly, the infinite cataclysms and re-expansion part of the theory derives from all of the planets and moons still (this is true) sifting closer and closer to the center of the universe; or apart (my knowledge is pretty sketchy).

Thirdly, the form of Infinity that you are bringing up doesn't have all that much to do with it; it's mostly just a theory that somewhat explains what could've made the universe how it is, and what is in works right now and what we can expect to happen to separate space matter once more and continue the existence of the universe in a predictable, reoccurring state.

Well, thank you, but there is more to it.

I know that "matter can not be made or destroyed" isn't part of the theory, but it is considered scientific fact anyway. Even if it could, it would require someone to make it. An external energy.

About the infinity, I know it isn't part of the theory, but again, it still goes with it.

My question is, what caused Cosmic initiation? Obviously, it would require an external force.

(And to be clear, even though I think the theory is bogus, I still think it is quite fascinating.)

 

[Avex]

So thats where the questions come in, if there was an external force, what caused it.

Energy, it all falls back to Matter and Energy. If matter was expanded during the big bang it needed an energy to cause its reaction, hence Matter, is not the Building Block of the universe. Matter cannot be used without energy last I checked.

 

[PurplePoot]

Cut with the religious agenda. It makes no more sense at best, anyways.

Anyhow, the big bang theory does not attempt to explain where matter came from. It attempts to explain, based on the behaviour we infer about the universe as it is today, where the universe as we know it (the current expansion) came from.

Also, matter can be created and matter can be destroyed. Creation is matter is actually involved in quite a few theories, such as Hawking radiation and the Standard Model, the latter of which has overwhelming evidence in support of it.

 

[Hakeem]

Cut with the religious agenda. It makes no much more sense at the best, anyways.

Cut with the neutrality agenda. It doesn't lead anywhere.

Also, matter can be created and matter can be destroyed. Creation is matter is actually involved in quite a few theories, such as Hawking radiation and the Standard Model, the latter of which has overwhelming evidence in support of it.

If I remember correctly, the laws of conservation of mass and energy have clauses that restrict the scope of the laws to not include mass to energy conversions, and vice versa. The Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy is the one with a universal scope, so far as I know. I'm pretty sure that Hawking radiation does not create energy; it is the decay of the black hole, losing its mass.

 

[Pyritie]

I don't remember anything about infinity being involved with this. Last time I heard, the universe was not infinite. Just very, very, very,

Hidden

very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

very, very, very big.

 

[PurplePoot]

Cut with the neutrality agenda. It doesn't lead anywhere.

If I remember correctly, the laws of conservation of mass and energy have clauses that restrict the scope of the laws to not include mass to energy conversions, and vice versa. The Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy is the one with a universal scope, so far as I know. I'm pretty sure that Hawking radiation does not create energy; it is the decay of the black hole, losing its mass.

Losing its mass because mass naturally converts to energy and vice-versa, and energy converting to mass in very certain places (IE right on the event horizon) can theoretically have the particle or antiparticle escape the black hole while its partner particle (which should have annihilated it) will fall back in.

 

[Elenai]

I believe the theory of The Big Bang...

It proves that the universe is finite, and therefore had a beginning.

And also:

In the Beginning, God created the heavens , and the Earth

This is when the big bang happened...and the Heavens (space) and the Earth (the planets) were created here.

God in eons past, held in his hand a very tiny seed.

Such was this thing, such a seed indeed.

Every ounce of Matter, every volt of energy.

Contained it all was, in this little singularity.

Lo' and behold, there it was.

God told it to sprout, the universe because.

He wanted to make something, a place great and beautiful.

Filled with life, stars, planets, plants, animals...and yes...even people.

 

[Coolty44]

Well an "Infinite Universe" is possible, it cannot be proven because anything that is behond a certain point is considered "Invisible" to me, because we cannot see it at this time, simply because the light is so far away.

We can obsereve the "Cosmic Background Radiation" (the wisps of energy that have made it to us), and trace it back to (I think) a nano-second after the Big Bang happened. From this we were able to observe that it was, infact, a super condensed ball (most likley) of matter, and with the right conditions BOOM! a reaction is created, sending the matter spinning off in all directions. Later, when this matter slowed down, began to clump together, creating stars made up of pure hydrogen and helium (that was all there was at the begining). This is the basic known begining of the universe.

Now, for the infinite universe, it is plosible for now, because we simply cannot prove that it is finite due to the properties of light. We can, however, prove that it is still expanding or "cooling off", because we seem to be moving away from every galaxy, with the exeption of one. When light from the extremly far away galazy arrive, we will be able to see things and begin to really understand how the universe, humanity, every thing that is visible to us, started after the big bang, as the light is billions upon billions of years old, therfore showing us things that are billions upon billions of years old.

Off-topic-ish

Sorry for the bad spelling and any loops I have, I'm told I'm horrible when it comes to this. Hope this sheeds some light!

 

[PurplePoot]

El, just because something is finite in space does not mean it is finite in time. It also does not prove anything, as it is a theory, and not one with an overwhelming amount of observable evidence (though some). It suggests something.

Cool, there is an "event horizon" beyond which we will never see things due to the behaviour of our universe and the speed of light.

 

[Elenai]

well, a singularity that explodes into a universe, indeed shows that said universe formed from the said singularity, at one point in time was not 'a universe' but was instead 'the singularity', does it not?

 

[Dwood]

What is raw energy? Light? I think that everything at one point and time was a bunch of light.

 

[PurplePoot]

No, light is a massive particle just as what we perceive as matter is.

Pure energy isn't really something you can look at or sense in any sense of the word.

Elenai, yes, but that does not mean said singularity came from nothing.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Where the heck did religion spawn from this?

Cut it. I am asking about cosmic initiation. I am a religious man. Do I impose it here where it does not belong? No. So quit.

Matter CAN NOT be destroyed and CAN NOT be created. (Unless your God of course. But that shouldn't be mentioned further.) How can you destroy an atom? Well, you split it. But, how can you destroy the thread like material that comes out of it? You can't.

Even if something caused it, where did the something that caused it come from? And, what do you mean infinity has nothing to do with it? If you can't destroy matter, it is infinite. So shush.

AND LET ME SAY THIS! I DON'T WANT TO SEE A SINGLE PERSON SAY "Where did God come from then?" BECAUSE GOD ISN'T BOUND BY TIME SO IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT! SO CUT THE RELIGIOUS FLAMEWARS! NO MORE!

All I want to know is, what do people believe caused cosmic initiation?

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Actually there was never any bang to begin with, cause bang is a sound, and it's impossible to hear sounds in the empty universe.

Just for the record.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Actually there was never any bang to begin with, cause bang is a sound, and it's impossible to hear sounds in the empty universe.

Just for the record.

Lol. That's brilliant. In a weird techno-nerdy way. You deserve rep.

 

[reza sword2]

Time only exists in Earth?

 

[Pyritie]

Matter CAN NOT be destroyed and CAN NOT be created.

Don't stars create matter or something?

How can you destroy an atom? Well, you split it. But, how can you destroy the thread like material that comes out of it? You can't.

lolstringtheory, quarks ftw

Actually there was never any bang to begin with, cause bang is a sound, and it's impossible to hear sounds in the empty universe.

Just for the record.

It's just a term.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

I know that duh.

But try imagining some sudden explosion, without sound.

 

[reza sword2]

It'd look retarded?

By the way, how do you measure time in space? Isn't time a human invention basen on the Earth's rotation and revolution?

 

[Elenai]

Elenai, yes, but that does not mean said singularity came from nothing.

Matter and Energy could be infinite, I was merely pointing out, the finite nature of 'the tree' as opposed to 'the seed'.

^_^

Don't stars create matter or something?

...Aren't stars matter, and energy? IE: 'big balls of helium/hydrogen gas burning billions of miles away with nuclear reactions taking place every second, radiating light and...radiation...into the vast void of space'.

How can matter and energy create more?

 

[Pyritie]

Yeah, you don't know anything about stars.

 

[Elenai]

Yeah, you don't know anything about stars.

Enlighten me...for the sake of argument.

How can a star 'create' matter, when all it does is reform the matter that is existent forming the star's own material. IE: fuel that is converted into different elements.

Converting A into B, != A makes B, B, B, B, B, B...etc

A star doesn't perpetually 'make more fuel' to burn...that is why stars tend to die, they run out of matter to react with, and collapse. (last I checked)

PS: answer the question perhaps, instead of measuring what I know, or do not know. Unless you yourself are simply talking out of your butt when it comes to this simple matter of explanation.

 

[PurplePoot]

Where the heck did religion spawn from this?

Cut it. I am asking about cosmic initiation. I am a religious man. Do I impose it here where it does not belong? No. So quit.

From you. See below:

I know that "matter can not be made or destroyed" isn't part of the theory, but it is considered scientific fact anyway. Even if it could, it would require someone to make it. An external energy.

Bolded the important part for emphasis. I rest my case.

Matter CAN NOT be destroyed and CAN NOT be created. (Unless your God of course. But that shouldn't be mentioned further.)

And you just did it again.

--

What thread-like material? And yes, you can completely annihilate all the quarks, leptons and bosons that make up that atom.

Even if something caused it, where did the something that caused it come from? And, what do you mean infinity has nothing to do with it? If you can't destroy matter, it is infinite. So shush.

AND LET ME SAY THIS! I DON'T WANT TO SEE A SINGLE PERSON SAY "Where did God come from then?" BECAUSE GOD ISN'T BOUND BY TIME SO IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT! SO CUT THE RELIGIOUS FLAMEWARS! NO MORE!

In Pootology, we believe matter is not bound by time. Therefore, our theory works and is the simplest explaining the subject, so we are right.

All I want to know is, what do people believe caused cosmic initiation?

Something you religious people often fail to get is "We don't know" is an acceptable, and in fact a highly reasonable answer.

Don't stars create matter or something?

No, they do not. They fuse Hydrogen atoms in high-energy state (in Kinetic energy, such that they can overcome electric forces and have the nuclei actually come into contact) into Helium atoms (4H -> He), releasing a massive amount of energy due to the fact that multi-particle nuclei have a certain amount of the particles' matter converted into energy upon binding (They also fuse other nuclei, all the way up to having Iron as a product, but 4H -> He is by far the most common, and the most efficient).

EDIT: Here are some Hydrogen-Helium fusion process images ripped from Wikipedia:

Deuterium-Tritium process:

Stellar process:

 

[Dwood]

I believe that matter is always expanding, growing larger.

when it gets too big, it splits. This is over a very very very long time, of course but it would explain something.

I believe cosmic initiation to have always going on. It never started. And it never ended. With a beginning it cannot have started because, well matter had to always of been there in the first place.

 

[Pyritie]

And yet you say this despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that that is not the case?

 

[Dwood]

And yet you say this despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that that is not the case?

Me or?

 

[Nichita_00]

Well, being a religious person too, I would say God did it.
But trying to find a scientific explication.. then... (well, I'm asking some questions that are related to the topic)

1. Recent studies prove that the universe is accelerating in it's expansion, until the disintegration of atoms and stuff... and the big bang thingy was COMPRESSED matter. Well, how can you obtain compression if it's accelerating!? That means it's not a repeating process; I just had a thought, right this second. Dwood said that when matter expands (in this case the Universe) it splits, so it may result into smaller universes (that seem for their inhabitants like infinite ) and so on, creating big bangs. That would explain a part of my next question.

2. Within what was the compressed matter that exploded in the BB contained in? If we connect my first theory, then it would be an endless loop; If it's not.. then.. in what? Nothingness? The same universe, but no matter in it? That suggest it isn't infinite.

3. IF the universe is not infinite, then what are it's boundaries? How can we detect it? Is it a cube? A sphere? A brain-like thingy, with many connections? A cloud like formation with no definition? A looping universe?

And bob, I personally think that God planned and placed all the elements and triggered them, under this event we call the 'Big Bang'.

 

[Pyritie]

Me or?

Yes, you.

 

[Dwood]

Yes, you.

Then yes, I do because there is nothing to prove I am wrong. if all matter were to expand and grow at the same rate, how would we know?

 

[Pyritie]

Because of science...?

 

[Dwood]

Because of science...?

Eh science what? What I explained is a possible raw phenomena even a scientific theory to explain matter.

 

[yuyuhakushi]

I'm not bothering to answer anything recently before this, as i see whats in the beginning of the thread, and come up with an idea.

How was the universe created? by gravity, it has been said. But were, and how? Who knows, it has been said. Weell, if you compress all that matter into itself, it will eventually expand outwards, by what i understand. the momentum runs out, and it just explodes.
same thing to how it gets compressed, the momentum runs out, and gravity pulls it back together. thats my maybe childish understanding

as for how it started, no idea. find a bible of sorts, or make up some super theory to prove it to yourself, but it'll just be a mystery.

personally, the only way which something might come out of nothing (the universe) is some time paradox... We, in the distant future, by pure luck create a spacial flux, creating a cosmic bubble that is actually our universe, so we in the future create ourselves. funny, but do you have any ideas on the something out of nothing theory? heheh

 

[PurplePoot]

Then yes, I do because there is nothing to prove I am wrong. if all matter were to expand and grow at the same rate, how would we know?

Because it would take up more space?

Eh science what? What I explained is a possible raw phenomena even a scientific theory to explain matter.

Something that you pull out of your ass is not a scientific theory - this is what gives fundamentalists the idea that scientific theories are just pulled out of one's ass. It has to be backed by substantial evidence, and it has to accurately predict things we didn't already know.

1. Recent studies prove that the universe is accelerating in it's expansion, until the disintegration of atoms and stuff... and the big bang thingy was COMPRESSED matter. Well, how can you obtain compression if it's accelerating!? That means it's not a repeating process; I just had a thought, right this second. Dwood said that when matter expands (in this case the Universe) it splits, so it may result into smaller universes (that seem for their inhabitants like infinite ) and so on, creating big bangs. That would explain a part of my next question.

First part: Acceleration is not constant.

Second part: Dwood didn't base that on anything. He just made it up.

2. Within what was the compressed matter that exploded in the BB contained in? If we connect my first theory, then it would be an endless loop; If it's not.. then.. in what? Nothingness? The same universe, but no matter in it? That suggest it isn't infinite.

Contained in? What? Since when was matter "contained in" anything?

3. IF the universe is not infinite, then what are it's boundaries? How can we detect it? Is it a cube? A sphere? A brain-like thingy, with many connections? A cloud like formation with no definition? A looping universe?

It depends how you draw the boundaries.

And bob, I personally think that God planned and placed all the elements and triggered them, under this event we call the 'Big Bang'.

Elements are not indestructible.

 

[Mr. Bob]

What the heck poot? I never said that someone DID start it. I just said that it requires intelligence. And, when I mentioned God, I was solidifying the fact that it should be dropped. And, WHEN THE HECK DID I SAY 'We don't know' ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH? I just want the theory to continue!

So, we don't know what caused cosmic initiation? Interesting. Now that my question is answered, I shall get someone to close the thread. The obvious flame wars are undoubtedly coming.

 

[Samuraid]

Thread closed by request. The original question has bee dually answered and discussed.