Your Favorite System For MMORPGs

[brad.dude03]

I dunno, I've won a lot of Brawl games button mashing. You just have to choose the cheapest character that's nearly impossible to counter.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

ephy, you obviously didn't hear me the first time......

You should go start a thread on why permanent death in games is so bad if you're so opposed to it. Obviously, a lot of us aren't opposed to it and like the idea. You are opposed to it, and you know what, that's fine, but like I said, don't shove it down our throats and say, no ur wrong, u suck, ur a moron. You realize how pissed off people get? You've yet to say anything about it being your "own opinion." You're stating it like a fact and like I said, I'm really getting tired of it and I'm about ready to report you. I've asked you to stop multiple times and you keep going. I'm ok if you say it's your own opinion, because that's exactly what it is.

It's a sociological fact that when people don't have anyone to be accountable to, the majority of them are malicious and vindictive towards anyone and everyone they don't have a reason to be friendly towards. Read The Lucifer Effect, continue the conversation with me. You know how human history is riddled with wars and conflict, major and minor? Bored high-ranking players PK low-ranking players for fun, and the gears of that game will come to a blindingly sudden halt when people become sick and tired of investing time and effort into something only to have some asshole take it away in the blink of an eye. I'm presenting it as a fact because it is very much a fact that permanent character death in multiplayer games is one of those ideas that only starts off sounding cool.

It's just really rude because people are just putting down ideas. You can say that you yourself don't really like them and stuff, but don't just say they plain right out suck -.-...

I only put down one of his ideas, and he already knew people were putting it down anyways? While I am saying that you are wrong, I'm not saying you suck and are a moron for thinking it sounds cool, I'm saying you suck and are a moron for believing it's a workable idea when I can blow it out of the water in a matter of minutes. Implement it and it will definitely be blown out of the water in a matter of weeks, if not days, if not hours.

Go ahead and stick it on alternative servers maybe, or have several stages of KO before permanently dead, but alive straight to permanently dead is and will always be bad if you want a healthy community in any online multiplayer games.

I dunno, I've won a lot of Brawl games button mashing. You just have to choose the cheapest character that's nearly impossible to counter.

Most of the cheap tactics I can think of you win by spamming, not mashing.

 

[brad.dude03]

Spamming, mashing, it's all the same deal

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Spamming, mashing, it's all the same deal

Spamming takes a quarter of a brain to set up, though.

 

[Gilles]

I haven't played a whole lot of brawl, but Melee wasn't a spamming game. If you did, I'd kick your ass probably. Or at least a pro would.

 

[Nestharus]

Really, I don't think it's all about the combat system, but in regards to that, I do believe if you have a wide skill range, it'll do well. I mean, when I was talking about the character growth thing earlier, that would allow weaker players to play better by augmenting themselves (low skill cap though) and stronger players to play with all their might by just increasing their character's potential. I believe a system like that would do well in any game. Basing it solely off of the character is boring -.-, and I don't see how people enjoy that save for the socialism, which you can still have with the improved combat system and such.

As for character death, I know that some people agree and some people disagree, but I happen to work. I agree with you no the points that you said, which is why I added in different levels of the spirit, this way dying is worth while. I also worked on lots to do in the spirit world, and I put in rezzing so that even if you die, you have a good chance to get revived with 0 losses. It's not all as bad as you think it is. I mean, as long as there are checks and balances for a given system, it should work.

Does anyone else have any ideas at making this system work well? Let's prove ephy wrong here in that it's ephy's own opinion =/=.

And I've yet to see anyone really comment on my kool idea for spell creation ^_^

 

[Teh_Ephy]

As for character death, I know that some people agree and some people disagree, but I happen to work. I agree with you no the points that you said, which is why I added in different levels of the spirit, this way dying is worth while. I also worked on lots to do in the spirit world, and [HIGHLIGHT]I put in rezzing so that even if you die, you have a good chance to get revived[/code] with 0 losses. It's not all as bad as you think it is. I mean, as long as there are checks and balances for a given system, it should work.

"Permanent" kind of implies permanence. I have no problem with being killed and needing to lurk around in some alternate world, even if it would suck to level up in the real world. Make sure people have big incentives for randomly reviving other people, or else they won't.

And I've yet to see anyone really comment on my kool idea for spell creation ^_^

And obviously, the 1337er a spell, the more outrageous the MP/TP cost, right?

 

[~Void~]

MMORPGs suck. MMO shooters are AMAZING. And they only really work on PCs.

 

[brad.dude03]

MMO shooters are terrible dude. Planetside? Huxley? Effing terrible.

 

[Nestharus]

Oh, I found a very interesting article : ), and it explains things pretty well I think, but it can def be added upon.

Article on the Properties of Magic

Magic is no different. It ought to make sense on some level. This is not to say it must be 100% correct - so correct, in fact, one wonders why magic isn't "real," or doesn't "really" work in the "real" world - but it should make sense, under certain given and stated premises. Therefore, anything contrary to known laws of physics - in science fiction, or in fantasy, as well - should be explained, at least in passing, even if one is a bit vague on sufficient details to actually make it real. Failure to do this, and the whole of the story might crumble. Such is the folly of building upon sand.

Magical power - and how it works in AD&D - is the main topic of this piece, so let's get to it. Only one more aside, though, before we do. It should be noted nothing I say here is "official," and certainly it shouldn't be considered the "only" possible way one might explain such details. These thoughts are just one man's take on the subject - albeit they have the virtue of having been tossed around and play tested for decades by many individuals, and to date they have proven adequate for most of our purposes, so perhaps they will work for you, as well.

To start, we ponder the brain; it's a weak, 3-pound lump of wet matter with a multitude of convoluted interconnections within which minute electrochemical signals run about. Though these signals and impulses number in the millions upon millions, their total energy is quite tiny in comparison to something like a 25-watt light bulb. In short, it's not really a lot of potential energy for doing actual "work," in the scientific sense of the word. Thus, any justification for the brain being the actual source of a spell's power - for magic, or even psionics - is faulty on its face. The human brain simply doesn't contain that kind of energy.

However, like a tiny pebble falling upon other rocks and starting a cascading effect that grows into an avalanche, we see it's possible that from tiny things, huge consequences may follow. Still, simply tossing a pebble on a pile of rocks will, more often than not, hardly cause an avalanche. That is, unless, of course, one "knows" exactly where to toss it. This doesn't take more energy, you understand - just more knowledge and precision.

The arcane spell caster studies the multiverse - this universe (the PMP, or Prime Material Plane) and all other known planes of existence. The very existence of these planes is axiomatic to AD&D - that is, a given, basic premise of our fantasy universe - and as such, we may use this and build upon it.

For our purposes, then, we may define technology and science as things confined to the prime material plane - the PMP being what we are aware of in the real world - i.e. the planets, stars and solar systems, and galaxies. The useful flow of energy while confined to the PMP is a good way to define such "mundane" things. Even better, bridging over to other planes of existence is an excellent way to define what we will call "magic." Most anything that exhibits a "multiplanar" nature will be defined as magic.

NOTE: It's of particular interest to note that, once one escapes the confines of the prime material plane, the "normal" laws of physics do not necessarily have to hold. For example, while confined to the PMP, it's a given nothing may travel faster than the speed of light, but on other planes of existence - particularly the astral and ethereal planes - this is not true. The limiting speed there may be much higher, or perhaps there is no limiting speed at all. Also, most of physics deals with "closed" systems in time and/or space, and if allowed to bridge over to other planes of existence, these systems no longer remain closed, and it's not uncommon to see things like a mass gain or loss, an energy gain or loss, and the like. The very nature of the multidimensional AD&D universe allows us this freedom. And, of course, naturally enough, when things seem to break the laws of the normal world, this is almost the very definition of magic. But I digress.

Now this next part isn't particularly necessary to explain magic, but I enjoy using it since it has the advantage of explaining why some worlds are very magical, while Earth, for example, is not - and we assume Earth is not by virtue of the fact we don't see real wizards casting real spells with real demonstrable effects under scientifically reproducible conditions - i.e. there is no actual evidence for real magic.

NOTE: If you're one of those sorts who actually believe magic is real - in the same sense an AD&D character would think that magic is real and demonstrable - then, IMHO, you have issues you should address, but for our purposes here, since I've never been witness to any real magic, myself, my assumption is that magic is not real in much the same way Monopoly money is not legal U.S. tender, and anyone who thinks it is, is probably delusional. Most so-called magic that people do believe in is probably nothing more than slight-of-hand, or drugged induced effects, or the simple power of suggestion, though the lattermost, in and of itself, may be quite powerful - but it's not really magic in the AD&D sense of the word. Anyway . . .

One explanation as to why the Earth is not so magical, while many fantasy worlds are magical, is that the fabric of space is thinner, or weaker, on those worlds than it is here on Earth. I liken this to a cracked mirror or window, but only in three dimensions, the spidery filaments, or cracks, or tendrils, radiating outward from the center of each galaxy. These cracks cannot be seen by the naked eye, but they may be discerned in other ways.

As a rough rule of thumb, we assume 99% of all solar systems lie outside these cracks and in normal space, but perhaps a full 1% of all solar systems reside inside these cracks, or "tendril space," where the fabric of space is much thinner - that is, the barrier between planes of existence is easier to bridge. It's kind of like the difference between going through a concrete wall or a paper wall.

On worlds in tendril space, if you know how - i.e. you know where to toss the pebble, OR might happen upon it by accident - one can bridge the barrier between this plane (the PMP) and another. It takes far less energy on a magical world to do this than it would, for example, on Earth, which is one possible explanation for why some worlds are rich in magic, while others are not.

Of course, if one wanted to think of Earth as a magical world, one could assume it was within tendril space, but the knowledge of how to bridge the planes has been lost to antiquity. Even worlds in tendril space may not boast magically advanced civilizations. The mere potential for this discovery doesn't necessitate its discovery, after all. I dislike thinking of Earth as magical, however, since it's also possible to happen upon these bridges by accident - even frequently enough that animals may do it, and thus magical factors may become an evolutionary consideration for a species' development. That is, worlds inside tendril space would likely have lots of magical creatures on them, too, and not just mundane ones, like whales, bears, elephants, etc. that employ no discernible magic at all. If Earth were within tendril space and the arcane arts had just been forgotten or not yet discovered, we'd still likely see many magical creatures, like dragons, beholders, griffons, pegasi, etc. Yet we don't. Hence, Earth is most probably outside tendril space. Of course it may have only recently drifted outside of tendril space, which also might account for some legendary tales or mythical and magical folklore, which still resides within our collective memories as a race, though we no longer see these magical races since they have all left or died out since Earth has left tendril space. But I now seriously digress.

In any event, a brain well schooled in the arcane arts, through dint of clever manipulation and understanding, may use tiny amounts of energy it clearly does posses to set into motion certain effects - pretty much like knowing where to toss that pebble.

Over the centuries, the arcane arts have been refined to the point where, upon most magical worlds in tendril space, spell casters have many routines down to a fine art, and can conjure actual effects, however minor, with the power of their minds. But make no mistake, for the power it takes to bring a desired effect to fruition does not come entirely from the brain, but from elsewhere. Similarly, the power of an avalanche does not come from the brain, but from gravity and the gravitational potential energy locked up in those rocks or all that snow. You only tossed a tiny pebble or a small snowball in just the right spot to get things going, after all.

Still, it's not quite that simple, either. It often takes more than a single pebble to move mountains, normally, even if you know where to toss it. Luckily, through various discoveries, arcane spell casters have hit upon a few decent tricks. I'm not talking about actual spells, whole and complete, but what I call triggers, or routines, or even subroutines, or operators, or functions. They, by themselves, do not even rise to the level of what we'd call "cantrips." These triggers are not spells, but components of spells - not to be confused with a spell's material, verbal, or somatic components. It is through the use of several triggers, in the proper order, and at the proper time, and shaped by the use of the proper verbal, somatic, or material components, that the whole of the effort may be called a spell.

There are a variety of triggers, or means, to "get the ball rolling," and these different basic approaches often constitute entirely different approaches to magic (or even psionics) - so a wizard is not a sorcerer is not a bard is not a psionicist - despite them all being arcane spell casters, more or less. Similarly, an elven mage is not a human mage is not a dwarven mage is not a spellcasting dragon, and you might sometimes note there are slight differences between races in how they use magic, or what they may accomplish with it. Regardless of how similar a lot of their spells may appear, they are not always identical, nor interchangeable, and, if written upon scrolls, for example, can rarely be read by one of a different class than the class of the person who actually penned them. For example, a wizard cannot read the Cure Light Wounds spell a bard has written upon a scroll. The disciplines of bard and wizard, though both are primarily arcane in nature, are not always entirely arcane - there are a few divine aspects to the bardic approach, you see, such that their Cure Light Wounds spell is not truly an arcane one, but a divine one. In fact, this is just one of the best examples of differences between class spells, though in truth most bard spells are sufficiently different from most wizard spells and most sorcerer spells, and vice versa, that they cannot share each other scrolls, spellbooks (if they use them), or even spells or spell research - i.e. a bard can't teach a wizard a spell, even if both share that spell on their respective spell lists at the same level, since they have fundamentally different approaches to how it works.

No matter the approach, the actual mechanics are surprisingly similar, even if not interchangeable amongst classes. Thus, using such a trigger mechanism, the "pebble" is tossed - or perhaps two, or three, or more, and in the proper sequence, and at the proper time.

NOTE: Also, though the difference in triggers are great enough that different classes cannot share spells, subsequent steps are sufficiently identical that one might use their version of a spell to "counter-spell" a similar spell of a different class.

Now, once tossed, the pebbles do begin to cause a sort of chain reaction - like you tell two friends, they tell two friends each, they each tell two friends, and so on, and so on, until in very short order, theoretically, millions of people may know. This "energy" is not coming from one's brain or body or even the soul or spirit, but from the universe at large - it is potential planar energy that is unlocked by a trigger. But that's just the beginning. Another trigger may be used on top of the first, though the second one is not set in motion by the energy of the mind, but instead set in motion by the energy the mind has already harnessed from the first trigger. And then another step, and another - each, perhaps, bridging a gap between a different plane of existence, many of which have unique properties - like various elemental planes, quasi-elemental planes, or positive or negative material planes, for example. Through the use of a spell's verbal, material, and/or somatic components, these minor triggers of energy may be shaped and used to open bigger gaps, start more cascades, subsequently bridge harder to obtain states of energy in other planes or achieve greater threshold energies necessary to reach deeper and deeper planes, or just open the gaps wider and wider, thus allowing more energy to flow through, and finally, perhaps, open a door to the ultimate desired type or form of energy (like the elemental plane of fire for a Fireball, or ice for an Ice Storm, or water for a Create Water spell, or air for a Gust of Wind, for example).

So, to reiterate, a little brain power and knowledge starts a cascading effects, which releases potential planar energy, which in turn may be used to release more (dislodge even bigger rocks), which in turn may be used to release more (dislodge boulders), etc. until one has enough energy at their command that, if properly shaped and directed, can, hopefully, produce desirable effects.

Over the years, the arcane practitioner has learned the hard way that they must use some of this energy to shield their own brain - lest their mental manipulations of such quantities of raw energy fry their synapses. Even with such protections, however, they cannot escape the inevitable consequences of touching upon that kind of power with their mind, and like an epileptic's brain that misfires electrical impulses throughout the brain - often causing them to not remember the event even took place - the spell caster's brain is similarly tossed into electrical chaos - or, that is, it would be, if they had not taken the precaution of setting up partitions of their brain using some of the very energy they harnessed to partially protect themselves. Still, for the active portion of the brain where they prepared the particular spell in question, once used, the mind there is scrambled. Not necessarily harmed, but wiped clean, its memory of the event, a hazy recollection at best. This is why, after casting a spell, a wizard "forgets" the spell, and has to prepare it anew - but only after sufficient time for the brain to rest has passed. And though bards and sorcerers with spontaneous casting also suffer similar effects, their approach is different enough such that they may use that spell again, though from a different part of the brain. So you see, each "spell slot" gets scrambled upon its use, and only proper rest or meditation may calm that area of the brain before it can be used for spell casting again.

And so we see, gentle readers, that the amounts of sheer energy required to move mountains, freeze water, melt steel, or transport hundreds of pounds of matter, does not, in fact, come from the brain itself. That would be silly. No, it comes from a careful, knowledgeable, manipulation of the universe and the potential energies locked up therein.

NOTE: Real world "science" is a tool, a method, or an approach to discovery. Science is a way to learn about the nature of most anything and not delude oneself since it has safeguards built in, like testability, falsifiability, repeatability, etc. and other scientific criteria upon which science insist so it may separate fact from fiction or delusion. Yet, given the axiomatic nature of a AD&D universe, it would be wrong to think that upon such worlds science was somehow inconsistent with or different from magic. In fact, magic users would essentially be scientists - i.e. people who study the universe and its laws. My point is, though much more could be said about this distinction, it is sufficient to know that thinking of magic and science as somehow "inconsistent" would be a mistake. They are not incompatible.

Knowing all this won't, of course, help you a great deal, and you sure won't be able to capitalize on this information to make real spells work in the real world, but with it, you have, perhaps, a greater appreciation for what magic users are doing, and the kind of intelligence, knowledge, and training necessary to manipulate the universe at large, and the sorts of time and training it takes to ply this craft. Perhaps it will put arcane magic users in a new light and spark a few new ideas for your game. Perhaps not. If not, oh well, you aren't out much for having read this.

To be complete, now, I'll say a few words about divine magic (different from arcane) and then about magical creatures.

Divine magic is different from arcane magic inasmuch as clerics and other practitioners of divine magic do not come by their spells through an understanding of the universe at large, but from their covenant with their God. Their God understands the universe, to an extent, and His/Her/Its magic has a similar basis as arcane magic, though decidedly different triggers, a different approach, and access to, we assume, an entirely different form of energy - that borne of the life energy of living worshipers. The more worshipers on a particular planet, the more powerful that God is on that planet - or at least, the more powerful Their presence or avatars.

The divine spell caster understands their God, Their philosophy and teachings, Their desires, wants, and needs, and through this communion with their God, the Deity grants spells unto those who have proven themselves worthy to wield such power in Their name - i.e. the higher the cleric's level, the more they have proven themselves, the more spells God entrusts to them. God does not make the spells work or fail on a case-by-case basis, but trusts the clerics to use them properly and gives them freely, upon request - assuming the mind is properly rested and prepared to accept the spells. The spells are like little packages, waiting to be opened by the cleric when and where the cleric sees fit. Of course, if it comes to light a cleric is using such spells in a manner inconsistent with that God's teachings, the cleric may incur the wrath of that God, and quickly find themselves denied further use of certain spells, or worse - unless or until proper atonement is achieved.

The point is, unlike an arcane spell caster, a divine spell caster doesn't really understand the inner workings of the spells they employ. They understand their effects, but not how they work, much the same way most people understand a T.V. set and know what will happen if you plug it in and turn it on, but have insufficient knowledge to repair one, let alone build one.

Unlike most PC spell casters, magical creatures and animals rarely understand the magic they employ (intelligent magical creatures are, naturally, often an exception). Most often, through some mutation in their physiognomy or racial make-up, they accidentally hit upon a means to tap into the energy of the planes, bridge that barrier, and produce some effect. If it's a survival trait, they may pass it along to their offspring, just like one might for more mundane, but advantageous mutations.

For example, the pegasus doesn't really fly by use of its undersized wings, so much as it magically levitates. Its wings, at best, don't produce enough lift to get that much mass airborne, let alone provide sufficient lift for a rider and their equipment, as well, but the wings are strong enough to allow it to "swim" though the sky, once the levitation ability has nullified the worst effects of gravity. Note, also, the pegasus must continue to flap its wings in order to sustain the levitation ability, which explains why they cannot simply hover in the air like a balloon without moving. Oddly enough, the ability of many magical creatures are deceptive in this manner, and frequently not what they appear to be at first glance. Only a careful study of the creature might reveal such facts, however, so it's not too surprising that many people erroneously think they know how something works, when, in fact, they don't.

Similarly, many magical creatures have hit upon a means to produce other magical effects. A dragon's fire breath, an elf's infravision, a blink dog's blinking ability, etc. are just a few examples of multiplanar - or magical - effects, and these abilities have become second nature to them, and their use instinctual to such creatures.

It should be noted, however, that most often such magical abilities, while they may enhance a creature's abilities, are rarely necessary for a creature's actual survival. Why? It just so happens that magical connections are often naturally interrupted. Dispel Magic, or Anti Magic Shell, spells are examples of artificial interruptions, but such things also occur naturally from time to time. If a creature's very life depended upon continued functioning of such an effect, and it quit, even temporarily, they would die. So you see, if an elf temporarily loses their infravision for a few minutes, this is no big deal, but if a giant lost the ability to keep his giant heart pounding, he'd die, so most such magical abilities are what we call of secondary concern, and not of primary concern.

It might also, finally, be noted that certain areas on a planet may be richer in certain, magical, planar effects, and this might tend to effectively make invisible "fences" that would keep magical animals on their home grounds. They might die if they left those grounds and lost their magical abilities for too long. I only mention this as it helps explain why animals sometimes refuse to move or be chased away, even when confronted with deadly force, for they know that to leave would result in their death anyway. But this isn't actually all that common an occurrence amongst magical beasts - it's just a consideration.

Actually, after reading that essay... well, I think it's a really wonderful essay... hm...

So maybe, it's not about defining our own physics, but trying to further understand how the physics of this world works and how it may have relationships with other worlds, how often those relationships occur, etc. It really poses some interesting questions, and it does describe how some theories work.

So I suppose it isn't about creating a different set of rules to augment and manipulate current real world physics, but to build upon those in a logical manner = ). Really, the creative part would be creating these alternate planes of reality. I say this because little is known about the current realities of the world, and what is known is not proven by science (astral plane and what not).

What are all your thoughts on this essay?

 

[Gilles]

You mean if you cast some sort of earth spell the actually environment of the area would do your biding?

 

[Mecheon]

2: Permanent death. This was suggested earlier only to be knocked down, but think about it, sure PKs would exist, but that would be what makes the game interesting. Also, assuming that you did get attacked by a bunch of guys, they would be dead if you killed them as well, if you wouldn't do something, not many others will either.
6: Free killing. If any single person could just run to another person and kill him, no matter his race, class, faction, or clan/guild.

Well, then what'll happen is obvious. The strong, powerful characters will murder and torment the lower ones non-stop. If a gamer is given power, they are going to use it

Giving PKers and then giving NO safe zones against PKing is just stupid. There needs to be a way to defend yourself, otherwise they'll kill you

3: No NPC quests. What if the NPCs didn't have quests but players were the ones who gave the quests.

Gamers are also a stingy lot of OCDers. They're not going to give "quests", they're going to just trade items or maybe pay people more powerful for assassinations or something. But in those cases, gamers might just kill the questgiver and loot their stuff anyway

With these things, yes, it would be chaotic at first but would pay off greatly in the long run.

You'd eventually get it to a few people fighting amongst each other in groups to secure domination over certain areas, and essentially being feudal lords to anyone in their domain, killing them at a whim because there's no way they could fight back

It's just really rude because people are just putting down ideas. You can say that you yourself don't really like them and stuff, but don't just say they plain right out suck -.-...

Do either of you actually play MMORPGs? Because you seem to just be giving out dreamful ideas that anyone with even an iota of MMORPG experience can tell you will end badly. People are bastards at heart, especially gamers

 

[Gilles]

Mech, you forget the community of RPers. They'd actually be able to pull off quests. Some guys would be willing to give away stuff, and sit around all day making up quest stories.

 

[Nestharus]

To the first poster:
The earth or whatever would move based upon the acting energies from another plane of reality : ). The amount of energy that comes in is based upon you and the cracks to that energy. It's much like bandwith, and you have 2 things effecting it, you and the cracks. Even if you are maxed, the cracks only let so much threw, so your goal might be to widen them : ). The wider the cracks, the greater the magical effects can be. Different realities = different cracks and what not.

: D

To the other dude:
Yes, I've played MMORPGs. I used to run MMO servers = ). I've created quests, good AI, and made some NPCs you could actually have a decent conversation with. However, I find MMORPGs are lacking, and that's why I propose some of these ideas. Personally, I would be into this stuff, maybe not at such a level of detail for some things (because some things I'm not into), but at a great level of detail for others, especially the magic. And to think that magic is just physics : D. So magicians are just physicists, which is so cool : D.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

People that play MMOs are usually different from RPers, and RPers are generally a small percentage of those players. Also, I agree with Mecheon that the majority of these ideas sound cool until you try them out.

In theory, theory is no different from practice. In practice, it is.

And to think that magic is just physics : D. So magicians are just physicists, which is so cool : D.

Of course magic has its own rules. The essay just goes into potential valid scientific explanations for those rules, in greater detail than he needed to IMO.

 

[Gilles]

People that play MMOs are usually different from RPers, and RPers are generally a small percentage of those players. Also, I agree with Mecheon that the majority of these ideas sound cool until you try them out.

I never said there were lots.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I never said there were lots.

In your favour though, it's easier to know what player-quests are reliable when there are only a few people giving them. The pen is definitely mighter than the sword when people spread the word you're a scam artist.

 

[Nestharus]

Well, I do believe that tying magic up with physics would make it easier to make a better spell casting system where players can do their own spells and so on. The reality is that when designing anything, that things has to have rules, and the broader the rules, the more that can be done within it.

Take our world for example, our universe. There are so many rules and properties and so on it's just wild . Well, what if we tried to mimic that in a game? Maybe change the location or change some properties to give some interesting effects, like how the essay talked about magic.

In reality, the magicians and what not in the game would actually be learning real-world physics, and some theoretical physics as well : ).

I think it sounds fun, especially the fact that you'd be learning things that you could actually use in the real world : D

 

[Teh_Ephy]

In reality, the magicians and what not in the game would actually be learning real-world physics, and some theoretical physics as well : ).

I think it sounds fun, especially the fact that you'd be learning things that you could actually use in the real world : D

No offense, but PHHHhhhh yeah. They will not be learning physics and pseudo-physics, they will be learning rules and conditions. Let me know when τ = Fd and ¹/₂(v+v₀)t = v₀t + ¹/₂at² end up any useful, though.

 

[Gilles]

No offense, but PHHHhhhh yeah. They will not be learning physics and pseudo-physics, they will be learning rules and conditions. Let me know when τ = Fd and ¹/₂(v+v₀)t = v₀t + ¹/₂at² end up any useful, though.

Fucking show off.

 

[Nestharus]

Erased my post..

i'm in a really bad mood

and ephy, that was a dumb remark (i bet you didn't even read the article, so you don't even know what I'm talking about)... read the article and you'll know they aren't using basic newton formulas.. it's multi-planar physics...

you learn the stuff you just said in HS -.-

And for those of you who don't know what that stuff means..

Time = Force * Distance

and .5 * (velocity1 + velocity2) = (velocity1 * time) + (.5 * acceleration * (time^2))

very basic stuff.... which tells me.. are you a Junior or a Senior in HS?

btw, when dealing with forces, there is an x and a y component (in basic algebraic physics). For example, if you were to launch a rock, it's acceleration would have an x and a y component. When we look at a force like gravity, that only effects one component, that being the y component. This means that if there was no ground below, it would continue launching forward at the same rate of velocity. Now when you start adding in other factors (which we don't deal with in basic Physics, but are added in for AP Physics for HSers), we start dealing with various friction elements, such as air, which has a continuous impact on our current forces. By the way, forces are measured in a measurement called Newtons (N for short), and if you're unsure about what that stands for, look it up on wikipedia. There is your basic introduction to physics =/=.

Now, if you really feel like pissing on that article, knowing just this isn't going to help you at all. The article talks about multi-planar physics (forces between different planes of reality) and multiverse physics (forces between different universes). To get to this stuff, first you have to understand how our universe works (read up on some M Theory), then you have to go into some very theoretical physics (the other 2 things I mentioned). The article hits on this just a little bit, in fact, just by reading the article, I can tell that the author is a physicist. Now, at this point, you can't really debate. Why? We don't know about other universes in the multiverse and no other planes of reality have been proven to exist. If you did somehow prove one to exist, then you could study the relationships between that plane and this plane and from there get some physics down. You really need 2-3 to start studying though (examine the relationships between the planes). Once you have this done, you can form up some laws that these relationships follow, and from there we can study and see how something like *magic* (multi planar physics) would really work. It's all about taking energy from one plane of reality and moving it to another. What would be the reactions? What would be the effects?

There is a show that goes into some of this called Dr. Who. They barely hit on it, but they were dealing with tendrils between different planes of reality, and they had their own little theories on how those would work and so on. But in reality, it's all just theory at the moment because the human race lacks the technology to really look into these fields of interest.

Now that that's all settled I say this...

#1: You can't piss all over the article if you don't even know the physics

#2: You can't go about saying everyone's wrong because nothing stated in the article is fact, it's all theory. If you don't like one theory, that's fine. You can't disprove it, so stop prancing about.

#3: If you really want to say you're right, you need to do what I said above, and I say... gl with that.

#4: Your comment back there, as I said before, is totally off base. I sincerely doubt you read the article, so don't say I'm a moron and what not... like I keep saying, it pisses me off and you look like a total idiot especially when you don't read the stuff we're even debating on. First, read the article and then talk crap about me, and no, you can't touch the physics because of what I've said above. The most you can say is, As If people would learn multi-planar physics theories ><. That's about all you can say, and you know what, I would. It intrigues me a lot, and I'm sure others would. I'm the type who loves solving puzzles and loves action, so I see a few fields of interest in this proposed MMORPG. I'm sure other people would have other interests (like the weaponsmithing, and the construction, and so on). The fact is, you can't even talk crap about any of it unless you did a bloody survey with 1% of the world population (totally random of course) and you found out what people like. From there you'd have to group them into categories, and then finally you can say whether these ideas would fail or not. So seriously, like I keep saying, I'm getting tired of your bs.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Erased my post..

i'm in a really bad mood

Let it out. Seriously. No one will think any less of you. It's better for your state of mind as well as the furthering of the discussion.

and ephy, that was a dumb remark (i bet you didn't even read the article, so you don't even know what I'm talking about)... read the article and you'll know they aren't using basic newton formulas.. it's multi-planar physics...

The essay just goes into potential valid scientific explanations for those rules, in greater detail than he needed to IMO.

you learn the stuff you just said in HS -.-

And for those of you who don't know what that stuff means..

Time = Force * Distance

That was actually torque = distance * force; what you said doesn't even make sense. The units of time are seconds, the units of force are kilograms meters / seconds², and the units of distance are meters. s != (kg*m²)/s²

and .5 * (velocity1 + velocity2) = (velocity1 * time) + (.5 * acceleration * (time^2))

Average velocity = velocity + average acceleration * time

very basic stuff.... which tells me.. are you a Junior or a Senior in HS?

You require additional pylons. If basic torque and linear velocity are just that, what the hell is a crazy spell you can't think of yet?

btw, when dealing with forces, there is an x and a y component (in basic algebraic physics). For example, if you were to launch a rock, it's acceleration would have an x and a y component. When we look at a force like gravity, that only effects one component, that being the y component. This means that if there was no ground below, it would continue launching forward at the same rate of velocity. Now when you start adding in other factors (which we don't deal with in basic Physics, but are added in for AP Physics for HSers), we start dealing with various friction elements, such as air, which has a continuous impact on our current forces. By the way, forces are measured in a measurement called Newtons (N for short), and if you're unsure about what that stands for, look it up on wikipedia. There is your basic introduction to physics.

Newtons do not "stand" for anything, one Newton is the force that is required to accelerate one kilogram of mass one meter per second under ideal conditions. x = width, y = depth, z (which you forgot) = height, and each one can have the linear velocity formula I listed applied to it separately, since they do not affect each other. Also, with the exception of air resistance, frictional forces (and therefore net force) are also constant. Useless semantics that show you're still in a bad mood. Just let it out.

Now, if you really feel like pissing on that article, knowing just this isn't going to help you at all. The article talks about multi-planar physics (forces between different planes of reality) and multiverse physics (forces between different universes). To get to this stuff, first you have to understand how our universe works (read up on some M Theory), then you have to go into some very theoretical physics (the other 2 things I mentioned). The article hits on this just a little bit, in fact, just by reading the article, I can tell that the author is a physicist. Now, at this point, you can't really debate. Why? We don't know about other universes in the multiverse and no other planes of reality have been proven to exist. If you did somehow prove one to exist, then you could study the relationships between that plane and this plane and from there get some physics down. You really need 2-3 to start studying though (examine the relationships between the planes). Once you have this done, you can form up some laws that these relationships follow, and from there we can study and see how something like *magic* (multi planar physics) would really work. It's all about taking energy from one plane of reality and moving it to another. What would be the reactions? What would be the effects?

There is a show that goes into some of this called Dr. Who. They barely hit on it, but they were dealing with tendrils between different planes of reality, and they had their own little theories on how those would work and so on. But in reality, it's all just theory at the moment because the human race lacks the technology to really look into these fields of interest.

Now that that's all settled I say this...

#1: You can't piss all over the article if you don't even know the physics

#2: You can't go about saying everyone's wrong because nothing stated in the article is fact, it's all theory. If you don't like one theory, that's fine. You can't disprove it, so stop prancing about.

#3: If you really want to say you're right, you need to do what I said above, and I say... gl with that.

#4: Your comment back there, as I said before, is totally off base. I sincerely doubt you read the article, so don't say I'm a moron and what not... like I keep saying, it pisses me off and you look like a total idiot especially when you don't read the stuff we're even debating on. First, read the article and then talk crap about me, and no, you can't touch the physics because of what I've said above. The most you can say is, As If people would learn multi-planar physics theories ><. That's about all you can say, and you know what, I would. It intrigues me a lot, and I'm sure others would. I'm the type who loves solving puzzles and loves action, so I see a few fields of interest in this proposed MMORPG. I'm sure other people would have other interests (like the weaponsmithing, and the construction, and so on). The fact is, you can't even talk crap about any of it unless you did a bloody survey with 1% of the world population (totally random of course) and you found out what people like. From there you'd have to group them into categories, and then finally you can say whether these ideas would fail or not. So seriously, like I keep saying, I'm getting tired of your bs.

You are wrong for semantic reasons. Learning the metaphysical excuse for rules and conditions is different from learning why the rules and conditions are what they are; knowing "why" is different from knowing "how", and one is frequently more interesting than the other. People will be interested in the "why", but the "how" is best left to simple rules and conditions instead of calculus.

 

[Nestharus]

sry whatever, it's been 3 years since I was in a physics class ;p

and when I read it, I was thinking of all of the time * velocity equations I used to do, so I saw t and went oh = )

oh well

to give people more power over the creation and manipulation of their own spell, the system should be as detailed as possible = )

 

[Teh_Ephy]

to give people more power over the creation and manipulation of their own spell, the system should be as detailed as possible = )

Ideally, yes. Unfortunately, your train of thought seems to be taking it towards unnecessary and unwanted details that do not help in the actual creation of spells, but in understanding the mechanics behind how spells work after they are created.

 

[Mecheon]

Mech, you forget the community of RPers. They'd actually be able to pull off quests. Some guys would be willing to give away stuff, and sit around all day making up quest stories.

I am an RPer. And I know that, without divine intervention in the form of NPCs doing it, a community system depending on RPers will fail. Go check out some NWN Roleplay servers that let you do the whole worldbuilding thing to see how that goes about

Plus, we RPers are a small lot and PvPers and raiders are much more numerous. If you want a successful MMO, you aim for them

to give people more power over the creation and manipulation of their own spell, the system should be as detailed as possible = )

Gamers don't care about the nitty gritty. They care about 3 or so things

1. The most important: How much damage does it do?
2. How many things does it affect?
3. How long from when I cast it does it take to do that damage?

That's all they're gonna want to care about. Oh sure, they'll care about types of spells, but only when you add in things immune to certain things. Otherwise, they don't care. Oh sure, they'll like customising it to look a bit different, but beyond that, that's all that you need

 

[Gilles]

People like pretty spells too Mech; give it lots of particle effects and people will cream.

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

I used to be an RP'er, but I kinda stopped long ago. Most people on the internet don't know how to spell out simple sentences properly, which is pathetic, and I have no patience for people who "spel leik tihs".

I would want an MMO based about roleplaying. Where you aren't allowed to talk like an idiot and are supposed to roleplay about anything. Why? It would be interesting to live the life of a peasant or villager in the past; to suffer in times of war and prosper in times of peace. That would be an interesting experience as opposed to ONLY "raiding" or "pvping".

PvP could take place in the form of REALISTIC battles with tons of players, where there is actual collision detection (players dont stand ontop of one another), realistic physics (for arrows and such), and damage (if I swing a sword and it touches someone's arm, his arm will be dismembered). Of course, the missing arm could not be permanent, but only for the battle. And the player could respawn if killed. This would make the combat more "realistic" and "in character".

Cities could be built by players themselves. Each player either collects resources and returns them to a stockpile, designs the buildings, or actually puts the buildings together.

My proposal excludes fantasy aspects, however. Is it realistic to shoot fireballs from the palm of your hand? I don't think so. Of course, all of my ideas are easier said than done, which is a pity...

Someone's already making a REAL MMOFPS, by the way, called "Huxley". It works kinda like Unreal Tournament, but also has tons of PvE as well. Supposedly going to be free-to-play, and looks good (runs on the UT3 engine). Should be an interesting game.

 

[brad.dude03]

Yeah Huxley was originally a pay-to-play but failed so now it will be free-to-play supposedly. It will suck just as bad as every other MMOFPS.

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

I have high hopes for it. I mean, it's gonna be on the UT3 engine, right? But I don't see any English sites' for it, only fansites. It'll be a little better, I suppose, considering the fact that you actually go questing and stuff, and the PvP works a little more dynamic. Instead of the regular "rooms", you hop on a tram. Not much of a difference, but it's a little more unique.

 

[Warbandit87]

what nesthaurus says is truly, an awesome idea, where if you become a general or a king (become really powerful, gain the support of anyone) you could outlaw certain classes, and that would be that. for my perfect rpg, you could become king!!! if your character kills the king (of a country or empire) he/she gains all the units that the king's color was. for example, say adventurer234's character kills the king of lobothnia (sorry for the lame name), then he/she gets all of the blue units (the killed king's color). or even better, if a few 'loyalist' units are still the king's color after the king is dead, and they 'rebel' against the enemy king.
anyway, another idea is that after a certain amount of time(80 'years' or so) all the charracters die, and their 'children' pop up, with the same stats, and so forth, just a different name. anyway, i will be making mmos once i get my computer fixed (im using the schools). i hope to see you all as successful as maybe yacapo or dildamesh (island defence) or perhaps xXblackcatXx or samouraijakku.

 

[Gilles]

Yeah both those ideas would fail. Who the hell wants to be subservient?