Wuffles Thread of balance and changes in AtD

[Wuffle]

First of all, I don't play that much on bnet anymore so anything posted here maybe totaly biased and ignored, but i just want to be heard. I played 3 1v1 hunter dm -ar games yesterday with a friend(cuz no1 else was online), and this will be the thread where i get my suggestions...


For now I just want to consider how imbalanced creeps in merc shop are,

only usefull 2 mercs are priest(reduce dps,cheap, nice nuke,nice creeping skill,good hp) and deceivier( hi i am 2.2 k hp ranged dps pet costing only 225 gold and having imba heal/hex/frost armor so u can creep any red camp with just one me and a hero >1 lvl, suppp)

all 3 GAMES i played it comes down who gets deceivier first,priest is handy too, I suggest nerfing heal(lol full hp almost no cd heal which cost 125 mana sup) ,mana pool(700 is ridicolous, at least 500 or something, 2 other spells are just fine , mb hex needs little less duratation,but not important.

Priest needs hp nerf.Perioud, he costs really cheap and has like wut,800 hp?also curse literally makes dpsing hard, he can help a lot preety much everywhere


another suggestion is to buff that bandit that is also in mercs, hes beyond useless, mana shield does crap cuz he has 500 mana(wtf?decivier 700 and he doesnt even need that much) coil does 1 dmg and only thing hes capable of is tanking little, i think this merc should be reworked imo,aboslutly useless.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Mercenary's may indeed need to be reworked. I've never come across any problems with them but you may be right. They were originally made for Normal mode so they very well could be imbalanced in DM. Give me some time to figure out the situation with merc's and try to balance them.

 

[Wuffle]

I cant believe how popular this game is in garena,all my friends have played it and call it 'vampire rip off', too bad they dont like the game but i force them to play


I guess for now i just spam MERCS ARE BANNED every game -_-.


Played nature mage 2 games in a room in a hunters dm match and here are my suggestions


Cooldown of roots and heal are WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too long,its like half of ulti cd omg, maybe its just me getting used to dota but it takes forever to cast anything, i think(again,mb i mbiased) to reduce cooldown,maybe a little on roots and like 10 seconds on heal, but higher mana cost,like 150/200 for roots and heal, he has huge mana pool anyways, mb scale it on levels from 100 to 150/200 or something, will get back at you when i play other heroes



EDIT: played battle mage, again cooldown on that AoE slow really longggg , maybe its just me but its like 100000000000000000000000000000000 hours i cant even creep shit, u can nerf the dmg/slow etc but reduce cd, also wtf? my first spell has never proc'd ,bug or?


Heal fountain doesnt heal a lot imho ,need buff on that as well, as in right now it doesnt do anything,ud better off getting mercs/pots than staying 2 minutes trying to heal urself at fountain.

 

[zacharylky]

Hey there, I'm Wuffle's friend who always plays with him AtD.

I have a few suggestions:

1. Why not make a setting where you can toggle Mercenaries on and off? This will be better so no one cries (FUCKING MERCS SO IMBA) and stuff.

2. Frost Archer needs a buff. Definitely. She cant be played in Death Match mode, since she is too weak. Frost nova has a high mana cost for a weak nuke and a slow. Plus, her damage passive is horribly bad at level one, since it only procs 10% of the time(for what, 30< damage? screw it). And Frost Archer is TOO WEAK to even level up to a level where that passive is useful enough. I never got to a high level enough to get the ultimate though, since it's really very weak. Wind Walk is only worth getting a level, and then ignoring it completely for better emphasis to level her pathetic nuke and passives.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Wow there's some scathing criticism in here haha. I haven't got that in a while. It sounds like you are all talking about Death Match mode. No one plays DM so this is good b/c I never get feedback on it. A few hero's have been reworked to be more balanced in DM (and thus have had damage reduced from normal mode).

Now, are you saying mercenaries are too powerful in both modes or just DM? The difference in HP and attack for the Deceiver mercenary is HP 2400/1500, dmg 92/54. He basically has half of everything in DM mode. I think I need some more info on exactly which mercenaries you think are imba and the reasons why.

As far as cooldowns are concerned I know what you're saying and also agree it's probably bias from playing DoTA since most cd's are fast. The cooldown's and mana costs of abilities in AtD have been intricately balanced with one another over a long period of time. Every once in a while it turns out that the mana cost or cooldown could use a nerf/buff to be more competitive with other abilities. Usually this is just about 5-10 seconds.

Right now Nature's Fury has a 45 second cooldown. The reason for this originally was because it is primarily a hold spell and I didn't want it to be spammed. This is also when Hero limits were not in place so I was worried if 5 people wanted to choose Mage they could kill DK really early in game by continually casting fury on him.

However, now that I look at other spells I see that Supercharge has only a 25 second cooldown and it is a stun spell. Iced Arrow has a 25 second cooldown and it has a slowing effect. There is also a limit per Hero of 2 now. It looks as if I do indeed need to nerf Fury down to 30 seconds. The reason it will remain 5 seconds higher is b/c it keeps the unit from moving for 3.75 seconds but also slows it after the hold.

After looking at Arcane Thunder Clash (cooldown 35 seconds) I've decided to decrease both its cd to 30 seconds and mana cost by 15 to be more in line with the aforementioned spells. Leech, however, is a tricky spell to balance. It does seem to have a long cooldown (50 seconds) but it damages AND heals. When you also have Wave of Restoration the healing can get rather imbalanced. I'm worried about changing this but I will knock the cooldown to 40 seconds and increase the mana cost by 15 hoping that the Doc will remain balanced. (Late game I am really worried about what this will lead to though!!! Do you see what I'm saying?).

Someone else told me Great Cleave didn't proc for them... but every time I've tested this it HAS proc'd for me and everyone else. I don't know what the problem would be but I completely recoded/optimized the ability in the upcoming version so lets hope it will be working for you by then (since it is a great ability to obtain!).

zacharylky, First off welcome to the Forums! Anyway, as far as the Frozen Archer is concerned she has low HP but a quick attack, the ability to become invisible and a strong nuke (as much as you say it isn't strong, it is). The FA has notoriously been the strongest hunter in AtD and has received several nerfs to solve this problem. Perhaps there has been one nerf too many though. Are you referencing her in DM or Normal mode? Let me know and I'll look into her situation as well. P.S. Swift Shot (her passive) doesn't just deal extra damage but slows as well.

A no mercenaries mode sounds like a good idea. I will likely add that as an option in 2.94.

Heal fountain doesnt heal a lot imho ,need buff on that as well

p.s. More DoTA bias . No just kidding with ya, I'll look into it but I fear if it were any faster people could camp fountain in Doom and never die.

 

[Wuffle]

I'm really sorry i came harsh on you, its just how i am ;p, sry if u feel offended.

Yes,this should be remaded to dm wuffles thread of balance cuz thats all i play(not enough ppl for classic,and no1 wants that).

Deceiver can't die in DM,nope ,not going to happen, he has heal which has short CD, heals for like 700 hp, hex which lasts long on creeps and other mercs,costs little too,and frost armor is just like free ticket to killing every red camp in the game. Hex and FA are actually preety okay to me but heal is just too much, also his mana pool is really big ,combining with his hp(lol 1500 i can barely dish out 400 out of him w/o heal), SCREAM NERF!His dmg is ok tho, preety balanced.

I suggest getting his cd longer,mana pool to 400, heal costing 250 and hex 150, fa is 100, reduce seconds on hex vs creeps,prolly by 5, heal can be dispelled if attacked(mb its too much but heal is priceless(im still talking about dm all the time), i dunno ,mb u can come up with idea to nerf heal, make it like salve in wc3 in orcs shop,dispelled if attacked.

Priest from shop (dark?) needs little nerf, mb -200(?) hp reduce cuz hes rly cheap yet can tank a lot, make his nuke cost less and curse cost more, OR just make him more expesive.


Which brings us to worst merc ever,the bandit.

He has 500 mana and mana shield absorbing his mana into hp. Wtf?Why? He already has 1200 ish hp, he doesnt need another 500 for tanking,its preety useless, remove mana shield and get aura/divine shield/anything OR make it better, increase mana pool and nerf his hp,like 800 so it actually does something.

Buff coil or make some stun , coil dmg is like 50 which is nothing in DM, for the price its literally useless, could make a heal tho,like 200 hp instant heal for 200 mana.

or just reduce cost,make priest higher than bandit, nerf bandit hp to 600 so he cant tank red mobs, and make his spells more usefull(yet not imba)

The infernal thingy is fine tho, preety ok.

Battle mage has so much int, so much mana, making arcane thunder cost less makes arcane thunder too spammable, suggest u actually make it more expensive!You can actually change formula to agi X str X int it will synergice with ulti preety well, but thats just too imba mb tweak it somehow.
Wtf i play vs zach and great cleave lvl 4 never proc,whole 40 minutes.


Anyways im really blind but i cant see zach typing in this thread.

Sometimes I just think im ruining the game, dont listen to me much imo, or i feel too guilty :O!

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

OMG I just realized something... The Deceiver from Normal mode was still being sold in DM mode. That is probably why you were having so much trouble with him! Nonetheless, I reduced the amount healed and increased the cooldown on rejuvenation for him. I also decreased his mana pool.

I also decreased Dark Mage's HP in DM by 150. I increased damage of Vampire Knight's Death Coil to 138 (half of 275, which it now heals UD units for). You're right it definitely needed it. It was only damaging for 50. I also decreased his hit points by 200 and increased his mana pool.

 

[Wuffle]

nice -_-,will get back at ya when i play more

 

[zacharylky]

zacharylky, First off welcome to the Forums! Anyway, as far as the Frozen Archer is concerned she has low HP but a quick attack, the ability to become invisible and a strong nuke (as much as you say it isn't strong, it is). The FA has notoriously been the strongest hunter in AtD and has received several nerfs to solve this problem. Perhaps there has been one nerf too many though. Are you referencing her in DM or Normal mode? Let me know and I'll look into her situation as well. P.S. Swift Shot (her passive) doesn't just deal extra damage but slows as well.

Thanks!

I suppose I will have play FA more to check about the nuke. Another problem I have with the nuke is it's cooldown, sometimes it seems a little too long to catch escaping enemies :/

Yeah I'm referencing all of this in DM mode. I only play it with Wuffle so yeah...

I'm aware that her Swift Shot passive slows, but it's like it never procs enough for the slow to actually be useful. And besides, frost archer is too weak to level to a level high enough for the % chance for her passive to proc to be good before the game ends/she gets killed so it's pretty useless..

A skill-build most people would go for when using FA would be:

Nuke
WW(wind walk)
Nuke
Passive
Nuke
Ultimate
Nuke
Passive
etc..

and this leaves the passive skill at lvl 1 for a long period of time. Even if we get the passive instead of windwalk at lvl 2 and max the passive first before getting any points in wind walk, 15% proc chance(lvl 2 is too weak to even be considered as helpful.)

Swift Shot deals a percentage of her agility in damage and also a slow, but the slow is hardly useful in creeping camps and the DPS increase it gives the FA isn't that impressive considering the proc chance of Swift Shot.. Since the FA has already very low health, having no good skills to help her to stay longer in creep fights when creeping camps disallows her to level as good as the other heroes, causing her to have a big disadvantage if she ever comes across one of the other hunters in DM mode.

Both me and Wuffle have played FA and we have both not been able to get to above lvl 6 before getting our asses kicked in DM mode. Both he and me can vouch for the weakness of FA.

EDIT: This must be also because FA isn't good in 1v1 DM. We usually play 1v1 cause people whine and complain that the game is a Vampirism rip off and leave after downloading. It pisses us off, too. I don't think FA's health needs to be buffed, or if buffed, just a little, and her attack speed is pretty okay. I just find it difficult to use FA to even creep a green camp without losing less than 3/4 of my HP. I would suggest buffing Swift Shot, but maybe decreasing the duration of the slow.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Okay I see what you're saying. Swift Shot proc's at 10/15/20/25% for her FULL agility (not a percentage of it). I will look into changing it to 15/20/25/30%. Would that be better in your opinion?

 

[Wuffle]

No, I disagree with whatever zach is saying

swift shot is fine, fa is fine, mb buff +1.5 str on every lvl gain but shes fine cuz she can pubstomp really well, she feeds on killing and making them lower lvl than you which results into better levels>more success of winning. She can really be a good candidate of winning in full house hunter dm cuz of her ability to finish one hero quickly, the hero is very unique cuz she can gank quite a lot but cant creep red camps for shit w/o mercs(which will not be able to tank in red camps so ), only thing i understand about him is chance to invul target?why...wtf he regens hp while being invul, and slows down ur already crippled creeping cuz it invuls. Ulti only thing that needs buff, wind walk prolly needs nerf as well.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

I released 2.94 so you may want to go download it. I decided against making Mercenaries optional in this release but may do so in the future if you guys still think that they are imbalanced. Read the full changelog and download the map from the link to v2.94 in my signature.

The reason her nuke has a chance to invulnerable is simple. It would be imbalanced to have Iced Arrow deal the large amount of damage that it does and then also stun the unit making it helpless to further damage from the fast-attacking FA. The advantage to holding is so you can catch up to it or surround it with your Hero and units for when it unfreezes.

Have you checked out how Vanish was changed a few versions back? It got a big nerf.

v2.88b
8. Vanish duration set to 25 seconds at every level, cooldown set to 50 seconds.

 

[Wuffle]

I released 2.94 so you may want to go download it. I decided against making Mercenaries optional in this release but may do so in the future if you guys still think that they are imbalanced. Read the full changelog and download the map from the link to v2.94 in my signature.

The reason her nuke has a chance to invulnerable is simple. It would be imbalanced to have Iced Arrow deal the large amount of damage that it does and then also stun the unit making it helpless to further damage from the fast-attacking FA. The advantage to holding is so you can catch up to it or surround it with your Hero and units for when it unfreezes.

Have you checked out how Vanish was changed a few versions back? It got a big nerf.

ah ya,well didnt see sry


how about removin invul?its not like the invuled person cant take advantage of it(surrond himself,besides his cd recoll as well so dun rly see point of invul in DM cuz FA doesnt spread dmg,she burst dmg one target,she prolly wont have any mers cuz no gold so all she gains is ENEMIES mercs attacking her while the hero is invul,thxs for invul u can now take dmg from my pets for 4(?) seconds.
This prolly works at original mode for frost novaing DK's pets etc, but in DM i see no point, im not saying make it perc to stun,removing would be nice

its only IMO tho, i can see it being good as escaping,catching up i guess,but meh,id rather attack fast, fininsh out hero and move on rather than waiting 4 seconds in which new hero/enemies creeps/creeps attack me t.t

I still think by making chance to invul target is more like handicap to ur spell,not benefit

I stil see buffing FA's passive too much,30 % ?she can have up to 130 agi if played right lol hi 130 +dmg slow eery 3 attacks meaning fights are unbearable!

come to think of it, i remember WINNING full house hunter atd dm with FA while YOU were in the game!that was so epic
Zach! says:
i see
dark nite doesnt think its good that there's invul
Rustam says:
look
Zach! says:
he only says about advantage and disadvantage
Rustam says:
he types
he types
that its too imba to have stun
stun>good
Zach! says:
The advantage to holding is so you can catch up to it or surround it with your Hero and units for when it unfreezes.
Rustam says:
meaning invul>good
ya
no disadvantages are told
Zach! says:
dude
distadvantage is obvious
invul = cant attack
Rustam says:
not
to
dark nite
Zach! says:
thats what he's saying
Rustam says:
wtf?

Zach! says:
yes
he's saying that he KNOWS invul is bad
he's just saying advantages about the invul time
Rustam says:
dude
hes saying
that stun after slow is imba
stun=nothing bad
invul=nothing bad
anwyays
i dont see
why he nerfed
WAIT
i got perfect
example
to think dark nite thinks invul time
Zach! says:
shoot
Rustam says:
is only good
why
did he buff
% proc to invul over levels
and not nerf it by the time
why 15/30/45/60 opposed to 60/45/30/15?
Zach! says:
did he nerf invul percentage?
Rustam says:
buff over time
15 for lvl 1 60 ffor lvl4
Zach! says:
percentage?
Rustam says:
yes
Zach! says:
because the higher level it is
the stronger it gets
Rustam says:
?
Zach! says:
the skill
Rustam says:
it gets suckier
Zach! says:
I mean
not the invul
Rustam says:
?
why
would u want
to nerf it over time
Zach! says:
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO WHAT IM SAYING
LET ME TALk
Rustam says:
its not big diffrence in damage
over levels
Zach! says:
LET ME FINISH TALKING
Rustam says:
no
diffrence between lvl 1 and 4 nova is like 200 dmg
opposed to 15>60 percentage to make it invul
theres no reason
to upgrade nova now

 

[zacharylky]

From what I see, The increase for the invul chance is there to balance the Swift Shot skill. As Swift Shot increases in level, the skill gets stronger as well, and the invul chance I believe is there so that the FA can't just right click someone and keep attacking them and kill them in a matter of seconds(with Swift Shot at high levels), making her too imba. This is when the invul chance comes in to prevent the FA from being too imba and nerfing her Swift Shot ability(as it levels) and also preventing her ability to kill heroes as fast/easy as having Swift Shot without the invul(as it levels).

I believe the reason that the invul proc chance increases as the level increases instead of decreases is so as to "balance" the skill and FA, and so that even though FA gets stronger by getting higher levels of Swift Shot, FA will not become too strong. This invul is a nerf to stop Swift Shot from being too imba.

Another way you can look at this is maybe also to give ideas to the player on other ways to play FA

 

[Wuffle]

From what I see, The increase for the invul chance is there to balance the Swift Shot skill. As Swift Shot increases in level, the skill gets stronger as well, and the invul chance I believe is there so that the FA can't just right click someone and keep attacking them and kill them in a matter of seconds(with Swift Shot at high levels), making her too imba. This is when the invul chance comes in to prevent the FA from being too imba and nerfing her Swift Shot ability(as it levels) and also preventing her ability to kill heroes as fast/easy as having Swift Shot without the invul(as it levels).

I believe the reason that the invul proc chance increases as the level increases instead of decreases is so as to "balance" the skill and FA, and so that even though FA gets stronger by getting higher levels of Swift Shot, FA will not become too strong. This invul is a nerf to stop Swift Shot from being too imba.

Another way you can look at this is maybe also to give ideas to the player on other ways to play FA

ya ,except u can leave nova at lvl 1 and max shot ,genious

 

[zacharylky]

LOL, my bad, I thought Swift Shot was the one with invul. Yeah I agree with Wuffle then, Frost nova is pretty much only worth getting a point or two in, with the invul chance

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

The invulnerable chance is there to balance her out, that's what I was saying earlier. I always viewed it as a handicap to the spell b/c the spell damages a target unit, does AOE damage, and has a chance to hold. IMO the invulnerability was there to balance out the spell to keep it from being OP.

But if you guys are all thinking that invulnerability shouldn't be there then maybe I will remove it and just decrease the amount of time the unit is frozen for.

 

[zacharylky]

But if you guys are all thinking that invulnerability shouldn't be there then maybe I will remove it and just decrease the amount of time the unit is frozen for.

You can keep the invulnerable actually, but just leave it as a 10%-15% chance to proc at all levels. This could make FA a more interesting character to play in the future

(I'm thinking this invul could be a little useful in creepjacking people especially at harder camps like Pissed Giants, as when the enemy hero is at low hp and is going to kill the pissed giant, nova on the Giant could kill it OR it could turn it invulnerable so that the enemy hero is unable to kill it, allowing you to kill the enemy hero first and then creepjack his Pissed Giant, to his dismay.)

Also if the invulnerable chance remains constant, I would think that the time the unit is frozen for would be decreased by a second or something. The cooldown for nova isn't that fast enough to be used more than twice when chasing a hero, so decreasing the frozen/slow time too much might be bad for FA.

 

[Wuffle]

The invulnerable chance is there to balance her out, that's what I was saying earlier. I always viewed it as a handicap to the spell b/c the spell damages a target unit, does AOE damage, and has a chance to hold. IMO the invulnerability was there to balance out the spell to keep it from being OP.

But if you guys are all thinking that invulnerability shouldn't be there then maybe I will remove it and just decrease the amount of time the unit is frozen for.

its not game breaking like mercs, meh just prefference, keep it the way it is IMO

 

[Wuffle]

First looks at playing newest vers with dm and my first game (not in a life time but rly long time) as architect.

Mercs are preety OK right now, heal does its job and its not as easy to creep now, i say GJ there.

Architect seems preety ok as well, mb im just biased but i raped everyone there,got fast lvl 10 and build base on portal to dragons/imba items so they just whine all game p)

Altho i find no use of architects ulti in arena/everywhere else, its 20 base dmg and 7 % to bash omg so good thats like 80 base dmg( MY HERO DOES ABOUT 150 WITH NORMAL ATTACK AT LVL 6) and like 10 percent to stun(preety meh), its prolly preety good at turtling bases and using it then but i dun rly find it anywhere usefull at arenas/to dps stuff.

On the other hand his gold + spell prolly needs -5 % nerf, too imba , i almost feel like i cheated when i get /staff of nature might/all mercs/ 500 gold while other ppl bank for their first potion of healing.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Think of his ultimate on the scale of 4 towers, not just one. 21 base CHAOS damage, 0.5 second attack speed, 7% bash.

That's 41 chaos damage a SECOND, 82 every 2 seconds PER TOWER. 41x4(towers)x25(duration) = 4100 total damage. That is pretty good. Even if you are realistic and know that an enemy Hero may not hang around for 25 seconds, even 5 seconds is 820 damage (not factoring reduction by stacked armor).

The key to his ultimate is to target all 4 towers at one specific unit. I may nerf his Golden Strike spell in DM by 5-10%. It's necessary in Normal mode though because you are sharing kills with others and don't get your own kills as often.

 

[Wuffle]

Think of his ultimate on the scale of 4 towers, not just one. 21 base CHAOS damage, 0.5 second attack speed, 7% bash.

That's 41 chaos damage a SECOND, 82 every 2 seconds PER TOWER. 41x4(towers)x25(duration) = 4100 total damage. That is pretty good. Even if you are realistic and know that an enemy Hero may not hang around for 25 seconds, even 5 seconds is 820 damage (not factoring reduction by stacked armor).

The key to his ultimate is to target all 4 towers at one specific unit. I may nerf his Golden Strike spell in DM by 5-10%. It's necessary in Normal mode though because you are sharing kills with others and don't get your own kills as often.

hmm good point, -5 % works tho, 10 too much

 

[zacharylky]

I played that game with Wuffle, He was raping us all -.-

I got alchemist, got creeped jacked the whole game(stupid warden hero person and hunter), managed to get to lvl 5 before I got raped in arena. I have a few thoughts:

I spent 5 minutes creeping the centaur red camp just to get a stupid elixir of fortification. When I reached lvl 5, I found out I could get the same item for 110 mana <_<

Also, Alchemists' life steal potion isn't that impressive when using it against heroes or against red mobs. Even with it activated I got my ass raped by heroes/red camp centaurs and had to manage more than 5 fountain visits even with it, even when I had my attack speed potion activated with it. Maybe the lifesteal should get a buff? But to balance it, lower the duration of the lifesteal.

I like the idea of having a potion of haste at level one as it helps creepjacking/escaping/chasing after red hp heroes/anything else. However, I believe that the mana cost is a little too high.. I would rather spend my mana on that attack speed pot. However, both of them used together is good for the early game.

I like the idea of making potions while in battle, but having so many potions to make disallows me to carry so many things in my inventory, and also I find myself lacking mana during combat vs. heroes most of the time, as I have to spam the stun skill + make potions. Even though potions can be made before battle, many of the potions are situation(haste, attack speed, vampiric, fortification) and the only potion worth carrying 24/7 is the health potion. So I'm either left with a choice of having an inventory full of potions, and mana to spare, or to have an inventory with good items and health pots and no mana to left.

Also, I find architects pretty imba when in the arena or late in the game if they have built their own armies + hired some nice mercs. No one was able to defeat wuffle's army and mercs in the arena, and me myself had trouble even when fighting an architect with a rifleman army in the lategame. (of course I had to run.)

Overall, as all heroes are in the map, the alchemist isn't a weak hero, but he definitely isn't one who is strong even if used unintelligently. I would classify him as a noob-unfriendly hero, if there were any classifications.

PS. I will get back to you on the potions when I play with him again.
PPS. I personally think the alchemist is better off an intelligence hero with a high strength gain, something like Ogre Magi in dota(who has like 1.1K health at level 10). This would allow him to not have such a bad mana problem, allowing him to make full use of his skills in battle, and also keeping his strengths in survivability.

 

[Wuffle]

@ zach

Ya if u lvl up to lvl 6 me gg in arena ((((((((( should judge hero by all his spells imo!

anyways yet again i disagree cuz scientist rly good hero, no need to screw him over he can be imba with vampiric aura later on with good items only thing zach said which made sense is make him int based hero!

scientist really good ganker/tanker , he was bit imba before with 6 sec aoe stun,glad dark nerfed it now hes sorta nice hero to have, dun rly think any major changes should be implemented , mb only make him int based which i said before!

I just found out vampiric is got at lvl 2 alchemy, mountain giant is got at lvl 3 alchemy, should be vice versa tho cuz life steal sux at early lvls w/o items and mg is great early on

 

[zacharylky]

@ zach

Ya if u lvl up to lvl 6 me gg in arena ((((((((( should judge hero by all his spells imo!

anyways yet again i disagree cuz scientist rly good hero, no need to screw him over he can be imba with vampiric aura later on with good items only thing zach said which made sense is make him int based hero!

scientist really good ganker/tanker , he was bit imba before with 6 sec aoe stun,glad dark nerfed it now hes sorta nice hero to have, dun rly think any major changes should be implemented , mb only make him int based which i said before!

I just found out vampiric is got at lvl 2 alchemy, mountain giant is got at lvl 3 alchemy, should be vice versa tho cuz life steal sux at early lvls w/o items and mg is great early on

I couldn't get to lvl 6 cause all the faggots kept creepjacking me and I spent 5 mins at red camp centaur just to get MG elixir which I already can get -.-

Yes I agree about vamp aura and MG elixir switching places, though I believe that if vampiric potion switches with MG pot, Vamp pot could maybe get buffed a little so it would seem like it's fit to be a level 3 alchemy potion.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Were you trying to creep the red camp without a staff of nature's might and some type of armor (dragon hide/enchanted armor)? In order to take out heavy creeps efficiently you must have extra attack damage and armor. The potion isn't always going to drop from that creep. Sometimes you get rare, really good items and other times you get items that aren't as great. They all have special drop rates that I think are fair.

High mana cost for those potions is to keep you from being able to spam potions early game which would be imba. I do like the idea of switching the Elixer of the MG with Vampiric Potion... I think you've got a good point there Wuffle.

The best way to play the Scientist late game is to keep a slot open for potions so that way you can make them in battle and use them back to back. Mana cost isn't such a huge issue at higher levels. Early game it's not really a problem having room for potions since you aren't going to have a stacked inventory yet. There's no reason you should carry around a health pot taking up an inventory slot for other potions. Just make one really quickly when you need it and then use it.

Also the Architect is far from imba. Yeah he can make an army but it's not hard at all to kill them if you've leveled properly. There's a lot of strategies for each particular Hero and so don't expect because the Architect dominated you one round that he's imba.

I'd like to play with yall... can you ever play on b.net or only on Garena? I have a bot for b.net now that we can use.

 

[Wuffle]

Were you trying to creep the red camp without a staff of nature's might and some type of armor (dragon hide/enchanted armor)? In order to take out heavy creeps efficiently you must have extra attack damage and armor. The potion isn't always going to drop from that creep. Sometimes you get rare, really good items and other times you get items that aren't as great. They all have special drop rates that I think are fair.

High mana cost for those potions is to keep you from being able to spam potions early game which would be imba. I do like the idea of switching the Elixer of the MG with Vampiric Potion... I think you've got a good point there Wuffle.

The best way to play the Scientist late game is to keep a slot open for potions so that way you can make them in battle and use them back to back. Mana cost isn't such a huge issue at higher levels. Early game it's not really a problem having room for potions since you aren't going to have a stacked inventory yet. There's no reason you should carry around a health pot taking up an inventory slot for other potions. Just make one really quickly when you need it and then use it.

Also the Architect is far from imba. Yeah he can make an army but it's not hard at all to kill them if you've leveled properly. There's a lot of strategies for each particular Hero and so don't expect because the Architect dominated you one round that he's imba.

I'd like to play with yall... can you ever play on b.net or only on Garena? I have a bot for b.net now that we can use.

we can play on bnet ,just pm me time im on saturday/friday.

anyways what dark nite saying is true, no real imbalances this version, preety stable imo!

Id rather play on garena tho, preety nice ping etc many players that dont leave in sg rooms

 

[Wuffle]

Bump!Well not so much cuz no1 is posting here.

Played 2 more atd games ,both architect in all random game.

I would like to ask to make buildings build like acolyte building, cuz it takes a long time to build stuff . Also theres like no reason to build that heal thingy cuz hp fountain>it in every way, either make upgrade for it or smth i dunno, it runs out of mana rly quickly n doesnt heal much!

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Building will stay as is or else you could just spam like 100 bow defense systems in a minute. The time it takes to build is a trade-off with the time you could be using to creep/quest instead.

Healing Tree heal is not supposed to be a replacement for the healing fountain, but it is a good alternative if you are basing away from a fountain and need healing on the fly. If I remember correctly, Mana regen is 2 per second. It seems to be fine with everyone else but the next time I play I'll see if I think it is too slow.

 

[Wuffle]

Meh, guess so, but do something about those heal trees, i need to get like 4 of them to heal me to max hp(2 k ) in like 2 minutes

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Do you have any ideas for new quests or combination (recipe) items?

 

[Wuffle]

I'll think about it,posting in about 8 hours cuz im at school, i do think quests needs a little buff on exp/gold part cuz they are mainly useless now

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

2.94b patched and should be completely stable.

1. Phase Shift damage blocked decreased to 25/50/75/100 per level.
2. Ancient of Healing mana regeneration increased to 2 points/second.
3. Golden Strike chance reduced to 25/30/35/40% in DM mode.
4. Fix: Shadow Mask's ability "Voodoo Trade" will no longer continue using mana once your health is full.
5. Fix: Camera visibility across entire Battle Arena corrected in DM mode.

 

[Wuffle]

whats phase shift?

Golden strike reduced too much imo, but its up to you.

Quests: I never do any quests in DM ever, only for atd points sometimes. They're really useless and dont give much gold/exp, unless its quest which gives u imba footman!

I think quests should give more than quest/exp , maybe a merc or something, a good item etc, or just more gold/exp, I dont want to give out ideas cuz they generally are biased towards some classes, but the quests at the time are preety useless( this is all DM mode).

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Your points have been noted.

Also, if you already downloaded 2.94b then redownload it. I had to make a quick change (3 heroes disappeared in character choice area in DM mode lol)

 

[Wuffle]

So i was waiting for zach to appear from his dinner outside nub excuse and massed like 5 atd games.

First of all I didnt get any atd points cuz i kept clicking -save code when i already beat heroes in arena, then the cinematic appears and my code is gone, and i cant type -save code again!!!!All that gone to waste. Pls make it so u able to -save code at least 3 times or something,anyways back to topic..

I played warden sorceress yesterday, and u might already guess what my impressions are




UNDERPOWERED!


She has one spell that is complete dependant on you having mercs, yay how fun!This preety much makes one spell useless, unless its rly late in the game, even then its like what, 200 hp heal for 150 hp of the unit?lol wut?Useless!

Second spell might be good , but I dont see why it reflects ONLY against melee attacks?It's good vs battle mages, alchemists but absolutly useless vs ranged ppl, same with creeps, the spell proc is already too little( 15 % all levels?I dont want to compare but do compare vs rangers swift shot, 35 % basically make fights vs you unbearable(hi slow) , while warden sorceress has 15 % to deflect MELEE ATTACK( doesnt help creeping much cuz 50 % are ranged) Wuts use it is vs medicine doctors/hunters(pet doesnt count, you dont get spell to counter another spell which hunter might even skip) etc, come to think of it, it doesnt do jack vs most powerfull DM merc(deciever),
I don't suggest making % higher but just make so u can use it vs ranged people, mb it wil lbe imba at start so u can make it 10 % only.
Third spell is kinda cool actually, aside from the fact no1 will ever cast spell when that debuff comes, but that means hero is silenced, spells preety cool but again, doesnt help creeping much( and no other spell on warden sorceress does) , has limited uses, I suggest it taking mana/hp instead of just mana, oh and nerf its cooldown, its like one second now, i can get 7 heroes cursed at the same time.

Which brings us to one spell which sorc can use and its its ulti. Can't say its best but its not bad either, too bad it has huge cooldown( well its ulti so it should have large cd, no argument there) but aside from this spell sorc has no usefull spells,no catching spells, no nukes, no stun/slow/creep skill/ms buff/escape mechanism, all it has is silence so fights vs you might be hard( doesnt do anything when enemy hero has 3>mercs), some nub sort of sacrfice spell which needs mercs to be usefull( compare it to alchemist healing potion, 300 hp heal for like 100 mana(forgot)).

I do think this hero needs some kind of remake or something, she cant chase, she cant creep, she cant gank. She has quite big base dmg i guess, but what good does it do when u have 1 good spell at lvl 6 which stuns for 1 second(might be wrong here).

This is all DM, in normal mode the hero might be a good tanker ,team hero but in DM shes absolutly useless!


Also I tried playing normal mode yesterday and this was my first game in a long time, I was DK , that orc guy.


The hunters team was omg wow good, I thought I'd crush them(was full house) but they just kept using the spells they should use.

Boots of speed cost way too little and do was too much, combine it with the drake thing and you have nice ms,drake,stats!!

I suggest( this is normal mode now) make price higher for boots, which will make the item combined with drake cost even higher, which is alright cuz drakes already imba!!
I did win in the end tho, caught 7 people killing red ogre camp( to the portal) and killed them one by one with imba drake and imba tauren!!!Was adamn good game tho.

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

I suppose she was designed for Normal mode which is why her skills are what they are. I may rework Phase Shift to deflect both melee and ranged attacks in Death Match mode. The cooldown for her ultimate is only 120 seconds which is one of the lowest for any Hunter. "Betray" is completely designed for Normal mode play. I see what you are saying though, it is very dependent on mercenaries in DM mode. I don't know what I can do to change this. Any ideas?

 

[Wuffle]

Fast answer, didnt see that coming!

Leave ulti as it is, its fine actually now i think of it..

The idea of betray actually healing is quite nice cuz she can be agi tank and heal right away and her second spell makes tanking very good, but alas I can't think of anything that will heal her, could make it sorta like lifesteal but it would be unoriginal, you could sacrifice ur mana for HP tho, she has huge mana pool but one silence spell which cost 40 mana anyways , I guess it wouldnt be sorcerish to get ur mana into HP, but thats best I can think of right now, you could make it 100 mana for 75 hp and make it 50 better every level( 150 for 125 etc), I ll post when i ll have better ideas

I edited my sorc post with normal mode comment also, what do you think?

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

I honestly have 0 time right now to work on anything for Against the Darkness but the next time I get a chance to I'll address these concerns thoroughly.

 

[Wuffle]

imba bump to see what u think

Boots of speed cost way too little and do was too much, combine it with the drake thing and you have nice ms,drake,stats!!

I suggest( this is normal mode now) make price higher for boots, which will make the item combined with drake cost even higher, which is alright cuz drakes already imba!!
I did win in the end tho, caught 7 people killing red ogre camp( to the portal) and killed them one by one with imba drake and imba tauren!!!Was adamn good game tho.

nice vers release btw, missed the attack speed of that orc deathknight and like all the changes so far, just this bugging me now, tell me what u think

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

I don't know. Lately everyone has been saying that the Hunters seem to be slightly too powerful now. In all the games I've been playing I have not noticed any terrible imbalance against the DK from being able to buy boots early game.

The dark drake has not changed in power and is the same as it's always been. The speed boost from the boots is also the same and the prices are all the same, now you can just make a recipe too for 100 extra gold. It has never been a problem before and I'm pretty sure you're the first to bring it to my attention.

Anyway, to solve the slight imbalance of the Hunter's strength and also to make the game more interesting for the person playing Death Knight, 2 new DK items will be in v2.95 coming within the next 2 weeks. The Cloak of Hell will be a recipe item that requires a Burning Skull and Unholy Knight's Armor. It will grant insane boosts to the knight.

Also, another item will be a creep drop. It can only be picked up by the Death Knight (will only have a chance to fall if he kills the creep, will disappear if a Hunter picks it up). It appears as a "'Dull Blade" in your inventory and cannot be dropped. It will grant +10 damage. However, once a Hero is killed the blade transforms into the Soul Slicer (name may change) and will A.) Grant an attack buff to the knight for the next 30 seconds and B.) After 30 seconds, will return to a Dull Blade but with +10 damage added to its previous amount.

Does that sound good? That second item is not final but I really like the idea.

 

[Wuffle]

not really, been playing rly smart hunters previous weeks (teamwork creep,creepjacking,everyone wand of wind,heal pot ,stun stacking) and haven't lost once buying boots of speed first (i only play orc dk cuz he gay!!) cuz im too fast and they havent got many slows stuns to catch me, with dragon i could solo any red camp beside sun chief and it costs like what, 500 gold?one camp gives me 250(red)g.

about blade post later.
The cloak of hell seems nice, will see how it turns out.
10 dmg too weak , the game itself is like 1vs 8(forgot mb less, 1vs 6??) which will grant 60 dmg at the end( by that time the game is over tho, so prolly 10/20 ) and besides, if 3 hunters die its game over( 1 if its healer) , so the dmg given is weak, tell me more about the buff tho, if its game breaking or something that might work, 20 dmg /hunter seems better.

 

[Wuffle]

also,2.95 best change in atd imo
5. You can now save your AtD points more than once in each game.
will attract 4x players now
-_-

 

[Miss_Foxy]

I've seen this map hosted multiple times, and the players are actually getting harder...

 

[Wuffle]

I've seen this map hosted multiple times, and the players are actually getting harder...

the players dont get better, its just the game is simple even after playing it 1 time, atd, hell, wc3 will always have retards/brain dmged/idiots, its just that AtD is rly ez to get hang of and get the basic stuff right away.

played 2 games of atd cuz im rly bored +nothing to do...

well cant say anything, map is balanced as much as u wish it to be
)

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Yup, it is. I just hope the creator (Whoever he is) would continue on the game...

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Keep giving me ideas or suggestions and the game will continue to be updated. Otherwise there is nothing to work on!

 

[Miss_Foxy]

How about a system where people could enter buildings, if there were new areas/buildings?

 

[Wuffle]

Keep giving me ideas or suggestions and the game will continue to be updated. Otherwise there is nothing to work on!

Make hunters wolfs better spells, wtf does taunt does in hunters deathmatch???
More mercs -_-, mb wont be balanced for like 5 more versions but would be fun,preferably costs same as deceiviers but has diffrent approach, like not casting spells but beign rly good warrior(dmg/hp/armor,mb anti caster with mana burn or something), cuz IMO altho u have fixed deceiver it isnt fun taking advantage on hiring it every damn game.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

wtf does taunt does in hunters deathmatch??

You've got a point there...
But don't worry about it 1)ark_NiTe, your map's perfectly fine to me right now, just a few minor adjustments could help improve it further