Why not ?

[Inaltu]

Before i start with this i want to add that i am not sure i got the right forum for this , but i doubt there is a forum specially for such posts.

Warcraft 3 is a game going twoards becoming 9 years old, and yet it still is and probably will be far better than many other games. The thing that makes it soo special is the world editor which gave us the possibility to invent our own games and take almost anything to any level we wanted.

Today there are tons of WC3 maps but not many are played very often. The No.1 is DotA but i must assure you i bet many people feel so bored of seeing the same heroes items spells and strategies that they might be sick of it too.

A while ago i got an ideea of a series of WC3 maps which might be very interesting, and started adding all kind of ideeas to it. Problem is i don't have the time to make maps, but the cool ideeas just keep flowing in like water. So I thought about this : how's about you go ask the boys on hiveworkshop it they would be interested to help make these maps.

Some of the main ideeas for the map series are listed below, for now i want to hear an oppinion on how 'credible' you would consider such a project.



A 5-player map similar to a 5-man WoW dungeon final boss encounter. Bosses will be a lot more tricky though, and have more interesting spells. Players can choose between a variety of heroes each specialized in completely different domains. The way those 5 heroes should be chosen is crucial for defeating the boss. No info on the boss's abilitys so the players would have to learn about how to defeat him.

I have about 4 pages of ideeas and this is just a taste of what the map should be like. Waiting to hear your replies.

PS: Don't mind the fact that i have so few posts i've never been very active in forums and this is just a new account cuz i forgot what my last one was called =)).

 

[Nudl9]

This thread would belong to: The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site > Warcraft III Modding > Map Development > Idea Factory

Anyway

A 5-player map similar to a 5-man WoW dungeon final boss encounter. Bosses will be a lot more tricky though, and have more interesting spells. Players can choose between a variety of heroes each specialized in completely different domains. The way those 5 heroes should be chosen is crucial for defeating the boss. No info on the boss's abilitys so the players would have to learn about how to defeat him.

Well this doesnt seem very interesting really, sounds like just another map a guy would like to make.
Of course everyone would want to make a variety of heroes and nice spells.
I cant seem to find out how this is really original, sry.

 

[Inaltu]

Well -.- obviously that was 'just a taste' of what the map should be like. Think about it this way WoW has 9 million players. Lets estimate about 4.5 which have a lvl 70 of which half love PVE and the other half love PVP. What about the other 4.5 million which probably would love to see what it's like to get Illidan down but might still jsut have a lvl 25 character. I'm not saying they will all quit wow and start playing the map but several would find it interesting.

Then again, think of the ones that are lvl 70 and have mostly seen everything, and now are just struggling and waiting for WotlK. Having this said we are left with the tons of players who don't play wow because it's eitehr too expensive, takes to much time or what so ever. They might like it as well.



Ofc if the things i said above should actually be applyable to the map series they would have to be flawless.


The differences to 'another map a guy would like to make` are:

- These maps will be very small and containing just few units so we can go ahead and make more complex spells with more effects and whatever else we want
- Reinveneted mana system and spell casting,
- hero spell gaining different
- added something like talents
- changed the way stats should work, going twoards a more realistic realm (example :a thunder attack would damage a water elemental greatly since water conducts electricity)
- map will require a LOT of logical thinking, and the abillity to find solutions

and much more....


And i repeat --- I'm not like OMG I HAVE TO MAKE THIS MAP --- I just thought it sounded like a good ideea and it wouldn't be so bad to give it a try --- I definitely wouln't try making it all by myself because i just don't have the time --- but i would gladly plan every single inch of the map's core in detail.

 

[brad.dude03]

There are some serious holes in your logic.

1) WC3 came out in 2002. 2002 - 2008= 6 years of age, not 9.

2) WoW has 10 milion players, and I have no idea what game you're thinking of, but everybody is definetly not 70. Maybe closer to 60% of the game are 70 rather than 100%.

 

[Inaltu]

Jesus .... Now what u just wrote was wierd

Yeah I'm sorry I thought WC3 was released in 2000, and for your information 2002,2003,2004,2005,2006,2007,2008 are a total of 7 years not 6.

Astonishing, I missed 1 million players, that must be a serious hole.

And you've read my sentence wrong.

"Lets estimate about 4.5 which have a lvl 70 of which half love PVE and the other half love PVP" . -------Means : 4.5 million under 70, 2.25 over 70 and prefer pvp, and 2.25 million over 70 and prefet pve.

And one last detail : This doesn't have much to do with the map ... It was only some kind of an estimation on how many players in the world might be attracted by it.

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

Umm, yeah, I doubt anyone would want to quit WoW for some cheap spin-off that would take 5 seconds to own...

 

[Samuraid]

Moved to the Idea Factory.

 

[~Void~]

There are some serious holes in your logic.

1) WC3 came out in 2002. 2002 - 2008= 6 years of age, not 9.

2) WoW has 10 milion players, and I have no idea what game you're thinking of, but everybody is definetly not 70. Maybe closer to 60% of the game are 70 rather than 100%.

No there are holes in your logic. He said that half of the 4.5 million that are level 70 like PVE and the other half of that 4.5 million like PVP. Then there are the other 4.5 million that aren't level 70.

Umm, yeah, I doubt anyone would want to quit WoW for some cheap spin-off that would take 5 seconds to own...

A free spin-off where you don't need to work up to it you can just play it whenever you want. That appeals to some people.

 

[Beast(TrOg)]

Well I read it and it sounded like a game already made: "Impossible Bosses" so I think it was an OK idea...just late

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

A free spin-off where you don't need to work up to it you can just play it whenever you want. That appeals to some people.

A cheap spin off.

What if you don't have WC3, you're not just going to go buy it to play some 1 hour game then go back to your 23 hours of WoW...

 

[Captain Griffen]

One that's been done and quite rightly disappeared into the oblivion that is the b.net trash disposal, never to be played again.

 

[MurderMode]

I dunno, having 5 players of different classes working together to take down a boss doesn't sound like much of an idea for a map. It sounds like the underlying theme of all the rpg maps everyone has made/is making right now.

At the moment your idea is like saying 'I've come up with a new mode of transport. It will have two wheels, pedals, and um.. a handle bar. It's like a bike, which millions of people own, but it's going to have a different paint job and noone is going to teach you how to ride it. You are going to have to figure it out.... for yourself.'

You kind of need to elaborate more on what makes your idea special, not tell us the basics because in general most war 3 maps have the same basic gameplay. Coz the maps are made with War 3 goddamn it.

but yeah, you wanted feedback on whether it is credible or not, and yeah... it is. Like others have said tho, Impossible Bosses has already done what you are decribing (to the extreme) anyhow.

 

[Inaltu]

Nice ! I see everyone is optimistic and all ! Just listed some ideeas and its allready a cheap spin-off -.-
Well i guess if everyone thinks its all been done b4 and the world has seen it allready then you schould go ahead. As I mentioned i need help with making it if people don't like the very ideea i'll just forget it.

But allow me to correct u about these few details:

'would take 5 seconds to won`- try multiplying that with 600

I will have to try that impossible boss map but it allready looks sucky --- i got thrown out for not having full player house or sth ... and it has 9 bosses in one map so i doubt it could have been planned good enough. I bet every boss is just a oversized hero with 2 custom spells standing around maybe surrounded by some allied units and just waiting to be attacked.

I chose 5 players for a simple reason: lets say it would take 12 players OMG SOMEONE LEFT bummer restart ... It is easier to find 4 friends which u know will probably not leave. And its indicated to play with the same people since you have to learn how to win the map (reason why i will add a restart function in the map so u dont have to rehost every time).

The average rpg map sucks. I haven't found 1 map of that kind that i could actually call good. The only map ever made in WC3 that is close to beeing a very precicely made and perfectly balanced map is DotA.

MurderMode, ever tryed to start riding on a bike without knowing how to ? I bet you would fall down just like every other normal human. Thing is this map will require logic thinking, which will result in success. If you understand the 'water puts out fire' and everything u might have scored allready.

And think of the boss encounter more like a wow boss ancounter than like a wc3 one. In wow almost every final boss has different phases you have to pass where he uses different special spells and tactics which you have to counter logically. In wow they have a limit of the magnitude of the spells and the kind of spells. Just as you will NEVER see blizzard creating heroes like in dota you might never see boss encounters like in wc3 maps. And i dont think/know if anyone has thought of this in these terms.

 

[MurderMode]

The point I was making was that your 'idea' was so generic it barely classes as an idea at all. Not one of an unique quality anyhow. I said you had to point out what makes your idea stand out from the crowd, that is the only way you will get any positive feedback. Optimism doesn't apply here because you are not even making the map, so what is there to be optimistic about? You post an idea here to get constructive criticism on it... everyone is pointing out your idea is lacking in any depth, and at this stage it is nothing new. So instead of improve on it or even explain it better you just choose to fight on that it is a good idea.

I think you're just upset because you thought your idea was great, but you lack the communication skills to effectively convey exactly what that idea is. Not to mention that you are talking so much about a 'map where you need to use logic' yet you can't even come to the logical conclusion that this idea is going nowhere... unless you expand on it.

To say that the rpg maps suck is stupid. Sure most of them aren't WoW, but you aren't even making this map... and I doubt you have made any map that surpasses these sucky rpgs. Also, you didn't even try impossible bosses, and then you rant on that it must be shit because they have 9 bosses instead of your supreme 1. I mean come on, because your idea is so great it must be shit hey? hmm coz there is no way there is someone out there who can take your idea and multiply it by 9.... cept impossible bosses is exactly that.

The only feedback you asked for was whether it was credible or not, and everyone is saying (in a sense) that yes the idea is credible, but only because it has been done before...

 

[Inaltu]

Hmm well obviously u took my reply as something offfensive. I did add some details about it but noone mentioned them at all....

- Reinveneted mana system and spell casting,
- hero spell gaining different
- added something like talents
- changed the way stats should work
- going twoards a more realistic realm

I guess i should go on with concrete descriptions:

For example : Mana works like stamina. Thinking of all kind of games and movies lets say someone casts a lot of spells and is exhausted afterwoards --- that would mean some of his HP have been lost. In this map it will pretty much work like this: Once you cast a spell mana is lost, and it will not regenerate. In 10 seconds for example it will start regenerating rapidly, while draining hitpoints. If a hero casts another spell befor the 10 seconds are over timer will jump back up to 10. If the hero is attacked he will loose a portion of stamina per attack. To compensate the disadvantage most spells will have no cooldown.

Result : Lets say you can cast 4 carrion swarms in a row but then cant cast spells a while.

The time from the casting of the last spell to the point where stamina start to regenerate decreases when agility becomes greater. In addition to this newe spells could be invented which will for example add 10 seconds to the cooldown, which would replace spells like mana burn.


There u have it in case u want to find out more just go ahead and ask its not that i want to keep it secret its just that noone seemed interested.


And I will check that impossible bosses map if it is as good as u say it shoud be. The thing is im not saying a map is sucky because it has a bad ideea at its roots its just probably not been made detailed enough. Thing is i still state rpgs could be made better these days and that is another reason why i choose to try out with this map series.

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

Umm, the only reason most RPGs suck is because people try to thing "Epic size, loads of mobs, respawn system, save/load". People never think bigger than that, and it's funnily impossible to do so, seeing as it would take more than one map to make an enjoyable RPG.

And in WoW, if you have ever played, a boss doesn't take much strategy at all, it's a case of Paladin and Warrior tanking, Priest and Druid healing, Rest doing damage. No tactics at all. Also, how do you hope to add threat levels, like for instance healing poses more threat than attacking, for some reason.

Also, the fun in WoW is getting to level 70, why would you want to just start straight at level 70?

 

[MurderMode]

Thats better... it is becoming more of an idea now. These are really the kind of things you should state when brain storming. Anyhow.

It's good in theory, alot of fps games use some sort of energy/stamina system similar to that now, whether it just is related to sprinting or more in depth like Crysis where energy is used for a multitude of skills. Even WoW's rogue class is kind of similar with its energy system.

There is good reason tho where you haven't really seen anything like this in war 3 maps so far... and it's not because noone has had the idea... it's more to do with how complex it would be to trigger.

the no mana regen is easy, just make it so Int doesn't affect mana regeneration and set all unit's mana regen to zero or none. It starts to get more difficult when you start increasing the mana again tho. First of all, you can't just regen mana at a specific rate through triggering. You can only do it in increments. This means instead of just triggering it so a unit gains 50% of its mana back, you are going to have to do it in stages. Eg. set units mana to current mana + (max mana x 0.05), wait 0.75 sec, set units mana to current mana + (max mana x 0.05), wait 0.75 sec, etc... till you get to the 50%. You will have to You are going to have to manage quite a handful of variables to achieve this without leaks. Just the same as doing that you are going to have to decrease the hp, as well as set the trigger/s not to function or allow spell casting below a certain level of health, because it would be silly to have a unit die of fatigue in battle...

You will also need triggers to negate this one so that if a unit casts again in that time then its effects are null and it starts over. Now you also have to trigger it so when a unit is attacked he will lose stamina aswell, which isn't that difficult to do but is going to be hard to balance out. Not only because this system is going to have to be balanced out with all the available spells, but also because you want to factor agility in, which means all these triggers are going to have to contain more advanced triggering and balancing to get the time to function appropriately.

To add 10 seconds to the cooldown through spells means you are going to have to incorporate another variable for time duration which will have more triggers to manage its state.

It is all possible really, but with the amount of time it would take and all the juggling you are going to have to do to get it to work isn't worth it. You might aswell be a professional games developer and actually get paid to do it.

I think it is fair to say that atleast 90% of war 3 mappers live busy lives, and allocate some of their spare time to mapping instead of say watching tv... so this is why most maps don't have such complex systems.

You should really get into the world editor and have a look around to see what is possible to help adapt your ideas into a state that can be implemented easily into a warcraft map.

EDIT: oh btw, if you really wan't to avoid negative responses, you should probably have started with a different thread title. Calling your thread 'Why not?' is obviously going to get alot of people telling you exactly why not. It's just common sense, or as you might say.... logic ;P

Yeah and I also agree that WoW bosses aren't about strategy or logic. There are some of those elements in there, but just like everything else in the game it is designed around 'play long enough and you will win'. WoW is just a money trap, an intelligent one that gives just enough to the player to keep them coming back for more punishment. As far as I'm concerned it is the worst blizzard game to date, just an exploit on the universe they have created and the fanbase they have accumulated. At the same time tho, I still think it is the best MMORPG currently available... doesn't say much about the industry lol

 

[Inaltu]

The mana ttick is easy : All 5 players have an int variable. A trigger runs every 1 seconds and decreases the number stored in that variable by 1. If it is 0 then a boolean variable is turned to true. If that is true another trigger which is running every 0.1 second lets say will drain a constant ammount of hp and add a constant ammount of mana. If the mana missing is lesser than the constant ammount then mana will be set to full and ammount missing will be recalculated to HP and then decreased. When a player casts a spell it just sets the int variable to 10 (it would be annoying if it would stack).

I've played a lot with world editor and know almost every corner of it, the only problem is that i dont know jass and thats the big leak in my knowledge.

Well i have to agree on the wow part as a money and time eating thing, but not on the boss part. I didn't play wow much but i have a freind which keeps me up to date with the new stuff. For example the Kael encounter in tempest keep is a bomb that requires a lot of learning and thinking, and it had about 8 steps or sth like that. U had to come up with things like tanking one of the bosses around the main one with a lock or a hunter ??? I couldn't imagine that but its true.

 

[Inaltu]

OK so i have finaly come to the conclusion it's time to make a serious WC3 map, so i will start right ahead and work on this project as much as i can. For now i will make a sort of Intro map where players can test heroes/mana system/abilities and find out all about the maps way of functioning plus be able to see a intro cinematic.

Map Series name is : Trial of the Gaunlet
First final map of series will be : Raigun Felfire Samurai of the Bloodeye clan (I've prepared a pretty cute storry ^^)

 

[Kwah]

This map sounds fairly interesting. But also fairly limited in player base. People whom play WoW tend to be addicted to WoW and play it 36 hours a day. (yes 36). The other thing don't try to design a map because it has a large player base design a map because it sounds interesting and fun to play. The Stamina idea sounds different but not necessarily better. I might play this map but your average B-net player hates change and loves DoTA.
Would it be a series of maps or different areas on one map?