Why conservatives fail.

[~Void~]

RyanGarns.com - 'Gay Marriage Opponents Now Want Legal Definition of Christmas'

Read.

 

[Grim]

My opinions on this are mixed to be honest...
I do not mind my Jewish, Islamic and Hindu friends getting time off for their own religious holidays, but I do feel it is slightly unfair they get time off for Christian holidays when we don't get time off for their holidays.
Either way, I'm not going to rant about it and I feel no matter what religion you are, you should be granted the oppurtunity to celebrate any other events (Even if it's just to get time off).

I'm probably just a bit annoyed also because I feel that despite living in a Christian country (England) we are being penalised by the government because of globalisation.
One council banned carol singers because they felt it would "offend" other religions. When I bet they respect our own religions.
Even online games have been effected.... Runescape used to refer to it as Christmas.... now its the Winter holiday -_-

 

[brad.dude03]

Yeah, it's all about non-denominational holidays in games. It's fucking stupid. If the developers celebrate Christmas, they'll put bloody Christmas in the game. Some people celebrate Satanism on Halloween. Does that mean we're being unfair just because everyone says Happy Halloween instead of Hail Satan?

I'm all for other people celebrating what they want, but when the majority of the earth celebrates Christmas, it's fucking Christmas. If you don't like the fact that I'm saying Merry Christmas, tough. Life's not fair. Your holiday isn't the predominant holiday, I shouldn't feel like a jackass for unintentionally offending you.

Christ, I'm not even Christian and I celebrate Christmas! Why can't people just treat it as an all-purpose chance to spend some time with your fucking family? Or would that kill you people still trying to celebrate your ancient religious rules?

NEWS FLASH: NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE BIRTH OF CHRIST. Sorry, but 90% of the people celebrating Christmas couldn't give a rats ass about it. Sure, there are the materialistic pigs out there that are all about outdoing each other in presents, but then there are us normal folks who just like the opportunity to do things with their families.

I'm not directing this at anyone who doesn't celebrate Christmas. I just get pissed off when I say Merry Christmas, as a sign of well-wishing, to a Jew or a Muslim, who then procedes to pull the religion card and make me feel like an ass.

You should be free to celebrate whatever the hell you want, so don't get on my case for celebrating Christmas.

 

[Grim]

NEWS FLASH: NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE BIRTH OF CHRIST. Sorry, but 90% of the people celebrating Christmas couldn't give a rats ass about it.

I'm christian and even I agree with that
(I'm in the 90% margin)

 

[PurplePoot]

I doubt it'll go anywhere, but still... Phelps anyone?

 

[brad.dude03]

He's the opposite. Instead of being violently opposed to Christmas, he's violently opposed to everyone, and everything.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Jesus Christ non-denominational motherfucker, I googled the Defense of Traditions Coalition and those quotes appeared on other websites. It was funny when it was blatant satire, but it's close enough to real that now I'm almost too depressed for the future of America to lol at this:

"We're just saying don't call it Christmas. Call it 'Pagan Day'. Call it 'Gee-I-Wish-I-Could-Celebrate-Christmas-But-Instead-I'm-A-Godless-Heathen' Day. Instead of singing carols, you can go door-to-door reading Charles Darwin to each other. Or the Qur'an or Harry Potter or whatever else non-Christians like to read. I wouldn't know."

'Gay Marriage Opponents Now Want Legal Definition of Christmas' - Topix
The following two are somewhat obviously quoting the original link ~Void~ provided.
Irish Biker Forum - The first and original Forum for Bikers in Ireland, designed for the online Irish Biker
Rag Times

 

[Campir]

That's not a true christian in that article. What he is, is a ignorant arrogant slob who uses his religion as a tool instead of a faith. He's using it as a way to make himself seem better then non-christians...
Besides don't you think God wants everyone to celebrate is sons birth, and not just the few christians?

 

[Masiah]

Oh, christians aren't allowed to read Harry Potter? Didn't know that.

When I read things like this, I really just want to shout for a while at the one who said such stupid things.

Even if this is fiction, I've seen similar cases in real life. And I still want to shout at someone.

 

[Arvedui]

It's obvious satire.

Believing this is like reading this article and saying "Omg, God has a Facebook?"

 

[PurplePoot]

The article is satire, the referenced group is however very like what they portray it as. Like ephy, I googled it, and they want to make saying "Goddamn" at work grounds for instant dismissal from your job, for example.

As I said, I doubt they will get anywhere, but you never know. It's the USA after all: they still haven't quite grasped the concept of secularism.

Edit: to avoid confusion, the actual name is the Christian Defense Coalition.

 

[Gilles]

The article is satire, the referenced group is however very like what they portray it as. Like ephy, I googled it, and they want to make "Goddamn" illegal to say, for example.

As I said, I doubt they will get anywhere, but you never know. It's the USA after all: they still haven't quite grasped the concept of secularism.

Obama's in now, that's likely to change.
Note: Canada doesn't seem to grasp Religious Freedom, but that's another topic for another time.

"We're just saying don't call it Christmas. Call it 'Pagan Day'. Call it 'Gee-I-Wish-I-Could-Celebrate-Christmas-But-Instead-I'm-A-Godless-Heathen' Day. Instead of singing carols, you can go door-to-door reading Charles Darwin to each other. Or the Qur'an or Harry Potter or whatever else non-Christians like to read. I wouldn't know."

Am I the only one that lol'd at this? I thought it was pretty funny, regardless of how much an idiot the guy is.

 

[PurplePoot]

Gilles, there is no evidence to suggest those are actually real quotes, just to warn you. However, it was pretty funny.

As for the secularism issue, no, it won't change with Obama, at least not by him. It's not a problem of the national body. It's a problem of the voters only electing Christians (at least for President), and the county and state bodies being highly religious.

 

[Gilles]

Gilles, there is no evidence to suggest those are actually real quotes, just to warn you. However, it was pretty funny.

You question my intelligence?

As for the secularism issue, no, it won't change with Obama, at least not by him. It's not a problem of the national body. It's a problem of the voters only electing Christians (at least for President), and the county and state bodies being highly religious.

The President can appoint secular people into certain positions. Bush appointed Pro-Life and generally christian people. My guess is Obama will appoint more secular people.

 

[Arvedui]

"We're just saying don't call it Christmas. Call it 'Pagan Day'. Call it 'Gee-I-Wish-I-Could-Celebrate-Christmas-But-Instead-I'm-A-Godless-Heathen' Day. Instead of singing carols, you can go door-to-door reading Charles Darwin to each other. Or the Qur'an or Harry Potter or whatever else non-Christians like to read. I wouldn't know."

Am I the only one that lol'd at this? I thought it was pretty funny, regardless of how much an idiot the guy is.

It's probably a fake quote because it's a satire on the actual group, but yes it's hilarious.

It's a problem of the voters only electing Christians (at least for President), and the county and state bodies being highly religious.

Why would that be a problem when 90% (or maybe it was 75%.. whatever) of people in the U.S. identify themselves as Christian. How many of those actually practice is a different matter altogether

And why should Obama be different? He's supposedly highly religious.

Anyway, this is a non-issue because the real group is obviously a joke and could never gain any real ground. Hell I could probably find a group of people that want us all to worship trees or some shit like that.

There are always going to be insane people, on either side of any belief system.

Case closed.

 

[donut3.5]

Why would that be a problem when 90% (or maybe it was 75%.. whatever) of people in the U.S. identify themselves as Christian. How many of those actually practice is a different matter altogether

Because your religion has nothing to do with your ability to lead a country, and therefore basing one's vote entirely on the religious identity of the candidates is complete bullshit?
--donut3.5--

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I could probably find a group of people that want us all to worship trees or some shit like that.

Eco-terrorists, you mean?

 

[Arvedui]

Because your religion has nothing to do with your ability to lead a country, and therefore basing one's vote entirely on the religious identity of the candidates is complete bullshit?
--donut3.5--

And no one said that. I was merely pointing out the fact that being a Christian President in a predominately Christian country isn't a bad thing. Or as bad as PurplePoot made it sound.

Overall, I believe that moral decisions (i.e. abortion and crap like that) shouldn't be regulated one way or another by the government.

That's my point of view anywho.


EDIT:

Eco-terrorists, you mean?

Yep

 

[PurplePoot]

How did I imply at all that being Christian was a bad thing when becoming President, Prime Minister, etc, for any country?

I stated that it as a prerequisite is a bad thing.

Also, if moral decisions weren't made by the government, they wouldn't have anything to do.

 

[Arvedui]

It sounded like it, to me at least. Sorry if that wasn't the intent.

Also, if moral decisions weren't made by the government, they wouldn't have anything to do.

They could try being a government and balance their budget and enforce the existing laws.

 

[Gilles]

It sounded like it, to me at least. Sorry if that wasn't the intent.



They could try being a government and balance their budget and enforce the existing laws.

Laws are usually based upon morals.

 

[Arvedui]

Generally accepted morals (i.e. don't kill other people) not specifically religious morals.

Obviously those morals came from somewhere, usually religion, but they've been so secularized that they don't really pertain to a specific religion anymore.

 

[Gilles]

Generally accepted morals (i.e. don't kill other people) not specifically religious morals.

Obviously those morals came from somewhere, usually religion, but they've been so secularized that they don't really pertain to a specific religion anymore.

Exactly, so your previous post had a large contradiction.

 

[Arvedui]

We were talking about specifically Christian morals (or at least I was) so not really.

 

[Elenai]

It is situations like these that simply reinforce my current belief about human beings in general...

"Dear Lord! This species is retarded"

-Secular- try not to pay attention to completely nut headed 'religious' groups who are much like a bible thumping version of PETA, in comparison to a good sane vegetarian who might occasionally say "vegetarianism is awesome, look at the benefits, would you like a salad?".

-Sectarian- try not to pay attention to the equally nutty extreme secularists and anti-Christian persons, who seeks nothing more than a completely politically correct hell hole...IE: Oprah...yeah...not a fan of Oprah.

"Christmas is Christmas, and God will still be there, fore even if your Church is taken, though it might not be fair...let not your faith be shaken. Their deadly fruit will soon come to bear."

---

As for the argument of morality.

Morality is something that is built into mankind, "the law of God is written on the heart", and every human being no matter what their faith, background, or philosophical motive, who is unimpeded by a mental defect has a conscience, and the morality that comes with it.

Mankind however, has the ability to ignore his conscience, and numb his guilt, wherein he may cause mayhem, and disorder. That is where Religion comes in.

Religion is essentially order in the chaos, and I personally believe that it is a kind of order that is unattainable by secular means, and rewards are thusly given for returning to that ordered, non-chaotic state.

Religion is the divine governing of our natural morality/immorality, with some neat little traditions thrown in to make it fun. It is there for societal health, filling the divine niche that secular substitutes cannot.

"better judged by a god who knows what he is doing, than a mortal who hasn't got a clue"

my personal thoughts

God created our universe in perfect ordered harmony, and when mankind fell, he allowed himself to bring disorder to the ordered nature that was formed.

In bringing this chaos, a way to maintain order was needed, and so God sent his prophets/messengers/etc to bring order to the disordered masses, so that mankind might turn away from their new found disorderly natures, and share in the lovely harmonious order that God had intended them to share. Giving them a choice to follow him to order, or to chose themselves and a disorderly existence.

There is more to this, but it is rather lengthy...and is in essence a thesis that I should write down someday.

So in essence, morality was not born from 'religion', but was something already present in humans. Religion is the care taker of that morality, with Religions such as Christianity, going beyond mere morality, and seeking to have a personal connection with the being they believe created order in the first place.

(PS: I made a few of these quotes up, except the morality one)

 

[PurplePoot]

Does it really matter in the end whether people don't do it out of not wanting to go to jail or genuinely not believing in it? Not really, in my opinion.

-Secular- try not to pay attention to completely nut headed 'religious' groups who are much like a bible thumping version of PETA, in comparison to a good sane vegetarian who might occasionally say "vegetarianism is awesome, look at the benefits, would you like a salad?".

Be careful when stating that sort of thing, it implies religion has definite benefits, while I think we can all agree that neither it nor the lack thereof do.

 

[Elenai]

I see definite benefits...but that is I suppose, a matter solely anchored in my opinion.

Though the quote I made was more or less, a loose example not to be looked too deeply into

 

[~Void~]

I myself used to be christian before I disowned religion for all the shit it's done to cloud our minds and society. When I was, however, I celebrated christmas for the family values, not the memorial of the birthday of some 2000 year old guy. As I do now.

And I have nothing wrong with a religious political leader, Obama is christian, so what? As long as it doesn't interfere with their decisions I am happy. A politician should make decisions on a logical basis; what's good in the minds of their people; not what they believe should be because of their religion.

 

[Hakeem]

Also, if moral decisions weren't made by the government, they wouldn't have anything to do.

Neat. I'll take this as an argument for anarchy.

Laws are usually based upon morals.

Yeah, but are morals in a constant state flux?
If we stopped making laws now, I don't think we would have problems.

It is situations like these that simply reinforce my current belief about human beings in general...

"Dear Lord! This species is retarded"

Speak for yourself. I doubt you personally know a good fraction of the 6 BILLION of us to make an accurate judgment:

"better judged by a god who knows what he is doing, than a mortal who hasn't got a clue"

God made us, did he not?
By virtue of our existence, and the implication that God exists in the statement "Dear Lord!", I wouldn't question humanity.

I myself used to be christian before I disowned religion for all the shit it's done to cloud our minds and society.

Make no mistake, religion does not do those things. Religion does nothing. It is people that do things and people alone. By disowning religion you hope to avoid the people trying to cloud your mind, but in doing so you set yourself up for other people to manipulate you.

If an idea is presented to you and you either accept or reject it based on preconceived notions, the logic in your mind can be controllably warped.

 

[PurplePoot]

Make no mistake, religion does not do those things. Religion does nothing. It is people that do things and people alone. By disowning religion you hope to avoid the people trying to cloud your mind, but in doing so you set yourself up for other people to manipulate you.

If an idea is presented to you and you either accept or reject it based on preconceived notions, the logic in your mind can be controllably warped.

I get the impression that what you describe is religion: it's faith that isn't responsible.

 

[Hakeem]

Religion is not responsible for your actions, lack thereof, or mind control.

You are.

 

[Elenai]

God made us, did he not?
By virtue of our existence, and the implication that God exists in the statement "Dear Lord!", I wouldn't question humanity.

It isn't God's fault his kids decided to get rebellious What are humans but the cosmic equivalent of teenagers?

 

[GhostG45]

It's obvious satire.

Believing this is like reading this article and saying "Omg, God has a Facebook?"

Holy hell, God has a facebook!

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Be careful when stating that sort of thing, it implies religion has definite benefits, while I think we can all agree that neither it nor the lack thereof do.

"Miracle" healing caused by the placebo effect.

I get the impression that what you describe is religion: it's faith that isn't responsible.

Organised religion. It isn't religion's fault it ended up being such a useful means of control.

To get back on the topic of far-right nuts failing, somebody ask me to prove that Christianity is the anti-Christ using common conservative arguments.

 

[Arvedui]

To get back on the topic of far-right nuts failing, somebody ask me to prove that Christianity is the anti-Christ using common conservative arguments.

Prove it

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Prove it

I'm glad you listened when I told you to ask.

Gardasil prevents four different types of cancer caused by HPV; many conservatives argued that administering the shots to younger aged girls is incentive for them to have sex. Similar arguments are used against distributing condoms to high-schoolers. It is then reasonable to infer that whether or not something happens with or without consequences, trivializing the consequences (read: basically, none) of an act is paramount to providing incentive to perform that act.

Christianity holds that I must be good and moral to get into heaven, or that after a certain amount of penance in Hell, I will be admitted anyways. If I somehow am led to believe either that I am guaranteed to entry to heaven eventually or that I am guaranteed to rot in hell for eternity, nothing I do makes my consequences any better or worse; specifically, I do not have reduced consequences, but I have no consequences that could possibly be worse, as well as no hope of any other consequences regardless; that can be equated with having no consequences, because the end result of any and all actions is still the same; basically, no consequences.

tl;dr: Condoms and Gardasil mean less or no consequences for sex, and therefore provide incentive for sex. If I believe that I've done something that my admittance to heaven is guaranteed one way or another, there are no consequences for me to be evil, and therefore there is incentive.

 

[Mor)L(unE]

Call it Pagan Day. Well thats an interesting quote, anyone new that christmas as we know it was first celebrated by PAGAN germans ,complete with present giving and Christmas trees. It became a "christian" holiday when the romans conquered germany. Then to keep the germans happy they made their holidays into (official) roman/christian holidays. as most christian holidays are derived from Pagan parties.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Call it Pagan Day. Well thats an interesting quote, anyone new that christmas as we know it was first celebrated by PAGAN germans ,complete with present giving and Christmas trees. It became a "christian" holiday when the romans conquered germany. Then to keep the germans happy they made their holidays into (official) roman/christian holidays. as most christian holidays are derived from Pagan parties.

I thought Christmas trees were from when Celts would hang the heads of their enemies on pine trees after a victory. The Easter Bunny is also from Pagans.

 

[Mor)L(unE]

I thought Christmas trees were from when Celts would hang the heads of their enemies on pine trees after a victory. The Easter Bunny is also from Pagans.

Could be, altough i don't think decorating trees, aint really done with ripped of heads. but oh.. im not one of those barbarians.

Nevertheles it doesn't matter wether trees were invented either by germans of celts, its just a Pagan holiday, not christian.

 

[PurplePoot]

The point is that the article is satire.

 

[Campir]

I myself used to be christian before I disowned religion for all the shit it's done to cloud our minds and society.

Some people just don't get religion, and no offense, you may be one of them. People think religion is an all absorbing force that brain washes us and forces us to do things in the name of God. Really, it's just a way to socialize with your community, be nice to on another and just be peaceful with yourself for a few seconds. If you took it to the point where your religion was brain washing you and making you believe in false realities and such, then you took it to far and lost sight of what religion is really all about.

Yah, I just went all wise up in here.

 

[Mor)L(unE]

Religion is like drugs, if used with moderation, its not lethal. However use it to much and you will become addicted which is bad for you and your fellow men.

 

[The_Silent]

That's not a true christian in that article. What he is, is a ignorant arrogant slob who uses his religion as a tool instead of a faith. He's using it as a way to make himself seem better then non-christians...
Besides don't you think God wants everyone to celebrate is sons birth, and not just the few christians?

No one actually knows when his real birth is, but it should be close to the 1st december. They did only choose the 24/25 because of an old Solstice celebration. :/

 

[SuPa-]

God is Santa Clause for adults, who gives a shit

 

[Ash]

I hate to point out the obvious, but what the fuck does that have to do with conservatives?

Back onto the -- intended? -- topic, when it comes to Christmas, it's almost like two separate celebrations. You've got the whole 'birth of Christ' ordeal, then you've got the meaning behind Christmas itself; giving gifts to others.

Whilst the latter can be taken multi-religiously, the former can't. But, that doesn't mean you should restrict Christmas to one religion, you can easily separate the two into different ceremonies and, hopefully, that'd be that issue sorted.

However, Christmas being about 'giving and sharing' doesn't exist any more, nobody gives presents just for the crack.

 

[Hakeem]

God is Santa Clause for adults, who gives a shit

You contradict yourself.

Why?

Kids care about Santa.

 

[SuPa-]

Lol xD