What do you think about Private Servers?

[Kimbo]

Yes they offer the game to you for free IF YOU PAY THE MONTHLY FEES TO PLAY ON THEIR SERVERS. DUH.

Note that following the process that you just outlined IS stealing, and in just about every country around the world, STEALING HAS SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES.

As I said, the game is free, the service is not. The end.
You are seriously taking it too extreme and over the top and I don't like your whole attitude on the issue at all.

But hack patching is illegal, but Brad isnt so pure himself considering he hosts a server private from what iv read, meaning he would have a server client or such which is illegal, not GRAY, from what iv heard you say, you let your friends play on your server.
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=369668&postcount=70
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=379492&postcount=95
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=377754&postcount=84

So seriously, don't go calling people thieves or pointing them down when you take a blind eye to your own faults.

As iv said, im in support of people playing on private servers and such as it uses a client which is perfectly legal to download (I'm not sure on the realmlist file as its not an actually part of the whole Wow system itself, rather a bridge or directory file.).

But i do not encourage people to host, those who use server clients. I know you say "oh...if you support one, then you support the other" No, just because i like cheap brand sneakers because it's all I can afford (I can't play official Wow as they do not accept my dads debit card) doesn't mean demand and ask more people to be popping out more child slaves to make and sell those sneakers.

EDIT: after talking with Sansui, it seems blizzard implemented cant connect to "3rd party servers etc in the EULA", doesnt change my support for them but im not turning a blind eye and trying to cover up my fualt on that part.
As he also noted in their agreement " Consent to Monitor. WHEN RUNNING, THE GAME MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY", which means they can be spyware on you if they wanted to....Blizzard can do anything and say anything basicly.....

 

[Turtles]

Yes they offer the game to you for free IF YOU PAY THE MONTHLY FEES TO PLAY ON THEIR SERVERS. DUH.

Note that following the process that you just outlined IS stealing, and in just about every country around the world, STEALING HAS SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES.

If they didnt want people doing it, why would they make it so incredibly easy?

Either, a, to set people up in a situation where they can be legally in debt to Blizzard, or b, because they dont care if you play on a private server, as long as you aren't using their servers. Theyve obviously realized that you can get the game from a friend's disk set, online, from the free trial, or from a burned disk set. Personally I think they bowed to the inevitable, that people will get the free game, so they decided to work with it.

 

[Earth-Fury]

This whole argument of copywrite and consumer freedom and all of that shit is just stupid. I don't think anyone here knows nearly enough about copywrite law (And in the case of the internet, international copywrite law) to make an informed and accurate debate. Or am I wrong? Are you people international copywrite lawyers? I really doubt it.

In the end, its up to blizzard to do what ever the hell they want when it comes to private servers. Attempt to shut them down, (as they successfully have in the past) ignore them, or whatever else. Arguing about the legality of it when you are not an international copywrite lawyer is just stupid.

Its legal to get WoW from blizzard. Its legal to buy WoW in a store. Its legal to play on blizzards servers if you pay the monthly fee. Beyond that, we need to find a decent copywrite lawyer to tell us what is legal and what isn't.

If they didnt want people doing it, why would they make it so incredibly easy?

You are an idiot. Responding to such an inane and stupid remark, other then to call it inane and stupid, is not worth my time.

 

[Turtles]

You are an idiot. Responding to such an inane and stupid remark, other then to call it inane and stupid, is not worth my time.

so, does that mean you don't have a response? Honestly, they cant be that fussed about it or they would have made it a LOT more difficult, such as placing CD-Keys or advanced disk protection or (especially) not have posted a free download on the internet.

Arguing about the legality of it when you are not an international copywrite lawyer is just stupid.

Yet, here you are, arguing with us about the legality of it.

 

[Earth-Fury]

so, does that mean you don't have a response? Honestly, they cant be that fussed about it or they would have made it a LOT more difficult, such as placing CD-Keys or advanced disk protection or (especially) not have posted a free download on the internet.

You are an idiot.

What is my rationale? My argument? My argument is simple: How much do you know about large scale client-server project design? How much do you know about copy protection design? How much do you know about copy protection implementation? How much do you know about copy protection in the world of international copywrite law with the specifics of being part of a large client-server project? Let me guess the amount, on a scale of 1 to 1,000:
5

Really, I would be excessively surprised if you even knew the actual concepts behind the copy protection systems used in a box of cheerios. (Hint: There are none)

I really don't have the time or the patience to explain the logistics behind why they may have chosen to do things the way they are doing them. But really, if you understood ANY of this, you would realize how big of an idiot you are for thinking things as stupid as "If they didnt want people doing it, why would they make it so incredibly easy?"

Yet, here you are, arguing with us about the legality of it.

Let me redirect your attention to the big red message at the top of this post.
I'm not arguing over the legality of it. I'm saying you people, in pretty much all likelihood, have very small understandings of very big concepts. I'm NOT going to argue the logistics and specifics of copywrite law in this case, because I know enough to know what I don't know.

 

[The_wand_mirror]

Yes they offer the game to you for free IF YOU PAY THE MONTHLY FEES TO PLAY ON THEIR SERVERS. DUH.

Note that following the process that you just outlined IS stealing, and in just about every country around the world, STEALING HAS SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES.

Putting free full installation MORPG downloads for trials while having a WTF file as a realm indicator isnt very smart. Somebody just has to reset the realm to an illegal server and register on that server. WoW has no high security and that also has consequences..

 

[Turtles]

Now, really, verbally attacking me like that is completely unnecessary. Over and over you say that nobody but a trained "expert" on copyright laws should be posting here, yet this is a thread about your OPINION on the concept. Let me "direct you" to the thread title: "What do you think about Private Servers?"

Here you stand, attacking me for stating an opinion and speculating on the reasons as to why it's so incredibly easy to acquire a free copy. By no means was I saying I was right. By no means was I saying anyone else was wrong.

As you keep saying about me, I strongly doubt that you have any advanced knowledge or experience with copyright laws.

How much do you know about large scale client-server project design?

And what in the world would that have to do with a game being easy to acquire? Ive said nothing about the public servers. The only thing I said is that its exceptionally easy to get the game and to get your own server.


But, honestly, I feel youre way out of line, throwing insults at me like that. There was no reason to (attempt to) insult my intelligence.


btw, about the Cheerio's thing, there most certainly are copyrights on the box. you think the Cheerios icon, that adorable Bee, is free to be used by anyone who wants it?

 

[Earth-Fury]

Now, really, verbally attacking me like that is completely unnecessary. Over and over you say that nobody but a trained "expert" on copyright laws should be posting here, yet this is a thread about your OPINION on the concept. Let me "direct you" to the thread title: "What do you think about Private Servers?"

I'm not objecting to people posting their oppinions about private servers. I'm objecting to people posting about subjects such as international copywrite law. (For reasons I've already stated)

Here you stand, attacking me for stating an opinion and speculating on the reasons as to why it's so incredibly easy to acquire a free copy. By no means was I saying I was right. By no means was I saying anyone else was wrong.

Its my opinion that you're an idiot for having such a stupid thought. See how the fence swings back and smacks you in the face? Thats because it swings both ways.

As you keep saying about me, I strongly doubt that you have any advanced knowledge or experience with copyright laws.

You strongly doubt? I basically said I had no advanced knowledge or experience in copyright law.

And what in the world would that have to do with a game being easy to acquire? Ive said nothing about the public servers. The only thing I said is that its exceptionally easy to get the game and to get your own server.

Ever considered that giving people a free copy of the game is a great way to milk them for 16$ a month? As for the ease of setting up your own server, you do know blizzard has actively shut down a hell of a lot of websites that had to do with private servers?

But, honestly, I feel youre way out of line, throwing insults at me like that. There was no reason to (attempt to) insult my intelligence.

No, you see, I did insult your intellect. If you agree with me or not is important. The fact that I succeeded in insulting your intellect remains, as the statement "You are an idiot" is pretty darn direct.

btw, about the Cheerio's thing, there most certainly are copyrights on the box. you think the Cheerios icon, that adorable Bee, is free to be used by anyone who wants it?

I have to downgrade my assessment to a 3 instead of a 5. You don't even seem to know what copy protection is.

Copy protection, also known as copy prevention or copy restriction, is any technical measure designed to prevent duplication of information. ...
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define:+copy+protection&btnG=Search&meta=

In other words, the method which a company uses to prevent pirating of their games. Blizzard has shown itself to be focused on private server eradication and ensuring you must buy the game to play on Blizzard servers. Essentially, their method of copy protection is vendor locking you in to their servers.

 

[Jacek]

noez EF!1111 games should be free!!!1111 why do i hav to pay!!!!!!1111

again Earth-Fury is right... you want to play, you pay, you don't want to play, go play something else... Guild Wars mb?

 

[brad.dude03]

Precisely.

And Werewulf, for the record, I know that I am in the legal wrong by hosting a private server, but that's not what i'm talking about. Hosting a private server is my business, it's an illegl activity, and i'm well aware of the consequences. However, most of these people have not a clue about what's involved (legally) with hosting a private server, and just exactly what Blizzard can do to you in a court for reverse engineering their code and hosting it on a server for your own ends.

To say that Blizzard is making it obviously easy to create a private server is retarded. The entire reason they are lax on copy protection, CD key, etc, is because:

1) EVERY MMO is like that. For just about every MMO on the planet you can download a trial for free, there aren't any CD key's involved, and the realm information is always stored in a realmlist. I've played probably close to 10 MMO's and they all function this way.

2) PEOPLE HATE COPY PROTECTION. Look at Bioshock! It was a wonderful game, but a lot of people returned it because the stupid fucking copy protection that they used screwed up a bunch and got in the way of the enjoyment of the game experience. Why the hell would Blizzard risk that? The thing is, they don't particularily care if you steal the game. Well, yes, they do, but not enough for them to make it harder for you to do so. Why? Because the REAL money they make is from the subscription fees.

Here's where Private Servers come in. Why the hell would Blizzard turn a blind eye to an activity that is stealing away their primary source of income. Hell, as soon as people started to pirate music the recording industry started suig 12 year olds and college kids everywhere. Blizzard is just the same, they're not gonna just let people waltz away with their source code and play for free. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Turtles]

The thing is, they don't particularily care if you steal the game. Well, yes, they do, but not enough for them to make it harder for you to do so. Why? Because the REAL money they make is from the subscription fees.

Which is exactly what Ive been saying...

Earth, seriously, there's no need to be a complete prick about this. This is why these discussions get ruined; people like you decide that their opinion and their way is right, then anyone who has something else is an idiot. Moderation, rather than extremism, should be applied here.

You strongly doubt? I basically said I had no advanced knowledge or experience in copyright law.

So who the hell are you to "rate" my understanding? Who the hell are you to claim to understand it more-so than anyone else?

I have to downgrade my assessment to a 3 instead of a 5. You don't even seem to know what copy protection is.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I assumed we were talking about Copyrights (and, honestly, why [how] in the world is there going to be a Copy Protection on a box of Cheerios? There obviously is no way to do so, so why [how] is it applicable to the discussion?).


I'll leave it at that, all I'm saying is that I posted a point, it may have been right, it may have been wrong, but it's clear that you need to learn to have a civilized debate with someone else, if you cant accept that other people have opinions, and that other people have just as much place in guessing as you do.

 

[brad.dude03]

I'm pretty sure you were saying that Blizzard was pretty much encouraging people to create private servers by making it so easy to host one, not agreeing with me when I argued against your point....

 

[Turtles]

I'm pretty sure you were saying that Blizzard was pretty much encouraging people to create private servers by making it so easy to host one, not agreeing with me when I argued against your point....

I was talking about acquiring the game, I have no idea about makign a server. the only thing I know is that its done a lot.

as for the game, yes, their attitude expressed thru the ease of getting it for free is, imo, that they arent too fussed about it.

 

[brad.dude03]

Yes, you are right, because they don't mind if you get the game because 90% of the money they make is from the subscription fees anyway.

 

[Neoktyn]

WoW has no high security and that also has consequences..

I'm sure you've never heard of Warden?

 

[brad.dude03]

What the hell does the Warden have to do with any of this? All it does is makes sure people aren't using third party programs to cheat on the live servers.

 

[Dr00d]

All that and it's far to fun, for me at least.

I REALLY don't care if Blizzard dosn't want me doing it. Worst they could do is... what? IP ban me?

There's nothing they can really do but cry about so I don't see any consicence for playing, thus, nothing wrong with it.

Did I mention how fun it is?

 

[brad.dude03]

It's a legal grey area I think for playing on them, i'm pretty sure that you can't be persecuted for playing on a private server (even though you should), but expect this to change, because you're subverting the subscription fee by playing on a pirated server. I think there's something illegal about that, but it hasn't been defined by law yet for a situation like this.

 

[alfredx_sotn]

Firstly, why would you play on a Private Server?

You're not even playing the real thing. Gold, difficulty of the game, mobs, are all modified.

IMO Private Server isn't populated enough to be called an MMORPG, thus the lack of 'competitive game' factor. You may be playing with some dude whose friend is the GM or whatsoever, and has OMG LEET LOL ILLIDAN WEAPON, which is probably gotten in one command line. Then you ask him to do the same for you, you get it, oh good, you're level 99999999999 too, it's the numbers and the feel of wielding a non-legit virtual weapon that give you orgasm. Where's the fun of obtaining something you don't work for, what's the fun when there's no competition involved? Where's the fun when everyone else has 99999999 levels, has the same weapons, and that pool of everyone adds up to probably 100 or so people only.

I don't know, it's probably just me, I won't feel the satisfaction from being good in just my own box, in a Private Server. But on live realms, when I achieve something, I have legit players to share it with, the epeen factor.

That's basically what I think about Private Servers. It has nothing to do with law. Flame on .

 

[Kimbo]

like
20 people or less on privae and gets boring as fuck easy and shit.

 

[alfredx_sotn]

like
20 people or less on privae and gets boring as fuck easy and shit.

HEY DUDE I AM THE GM, BUT I HEARD YOU'RE THE GM TOO! WANNA SEE WHICH ONE OF US HAS BETTER SKILL AT GENERATING MORE GLAIVE OF AZZINOTH?

Something like that.

 

[Kimbo]

yeah bitches, being fuckin gm is the fuckin shit
but u get bored eas and its not special, so dr00d. hush. cuz thats on a private server not real

 

[alfredx_sotn]

yeah bitches, being fuckin gm is the fuckin shit
but u get bored eas and its not special, so dr00d. hush. cuz thats on a private server not real

They are delusional; to them, it's the real server.

 

[brad.dude03]

Firstly, why would you play on a Private Server?

You're not even playing the real thing. Gold, difficulty of the game, mobs, are all modified.

IMO Private Server isn't populated enough to be called an MMORPG, thus the lack of 'competitive game' factor. You may be playing with some dude whose friend is the GM or whatsoever, and has OMG LEET LOL ILLIDAN WEAPON, which is probably gotten in one command line. Then you ask him to do the same for you, you get it, oh good, you're level 99999999999 too, it's the numbers and the feel of wielding a non-legit virtual weapon that give you orgasm. Where's the fun of obtaining something you don't work for, what's the fun when there's no competition involved? Where's the fun when everyone else has 99999999 levels, has the same weapons, and that pool of everyone adds up to probably 100 or so people only.

I don't know, it's probably just me, I won't feel the satisfaction from being good in just my own box, in a Private Server. But on live realms, when I achieve something, I have legit players to share it with, the epeen factor.

That's basically what I think about Private Servers. It has nothing to do with law. Flame on .

Dude, not every private server is a funserver. When you first start a private server, it's running EXACTLY the same as a live server, and YOU choose to make the modifications to the server. There are TONS of blizz-like private servers out there, so your points are really invalid.

 

[benx_x]

Being a PVPer I play on blizzard's servers, though I got nothing against private servers, just personal choice lol.

 

[Dr00d]

Yeah bitches, being fucking GM is the fucking shit,
but you get bored easy and its not special, so Dr00d. Hush. 'Cause thats on a private server, not real.

It's still fun, for me at least. Better then being a GM on a Blizzard server and fixing mobs and quests all day for minimum wage.

ZOMG CHRISTMAS SMILIES!!!

 

[alfredx_sotn]

Dude, not every private server is a funserver. When you first start a private server, it's running EXACTLY the same as a live server, and YOU choose to make the modifications to the server. There are TONS of blizz-like private servers out there, so your points are really invalid.

Not quite invalid. My point still holds true when the Private Server only has not more than 100 players, where you're only good in your own lunch-box.

When I last checked, how the Private Server runs is completely different from Blizzard ones. There are exploits which only work on Private Servers because of different mechanics, such as involving global cooldown.

You can choose to further defend your point, but you can never change the fact that Private Servers are only for the purpose of self-satisfactory over huge numbers, non-legit gotten lewtz, playing with a small group of people where it's not even fun, exploration(this is probably the only GOOD reason to play on a Private Server).

 

[brad.dude03]

Actually, the new Ascent core can hold over a thousand people just running on a desktop while you play. From a server, the cap is much, much, higher.

 

[alfredx_sotn]

Actually, the new Ascent core can hold over a thousand people just running on a desktop while you play. From a server, the cap is much, much, higher.

And I'm sure everyone knows the server to play on it, amirite?

 

[brad.dude03]

I have no idea what you're trying to allude to.

If you're saying that it's curious that I know this, I'll tell you openly that I run a private server myself, and am aware of the illegality of my actions. If you're saying that i'm setting this up to advertise my server, wrong, as it is not for public use.

So, explain what you're trying to get out of me, and I'll gladly reply.

 

[The_wand_mirror]

Why everyone says private servers always have like 20 players in it? they have not -.- the one i play in has 1200+ and maybe still growing. Or arent i allowed to say things anymore about these things in this threads? ...

ill... do it anyway..

the cap is 3000 btw.. is that much?

 

[alfredx_sotn]

Why everyone says private servers always have like 20 players in it? they have not -.- the one i play in has 1200+ and maybe still growing. Or arent i allowed to say things anymore about these things in this threads? ...

ill... do it anyway..

the cap is 3000 btw.. is that much?

Wanna compare it to live realms? OKAY.


As for brad.dude03, it's not a sarcasm when its point is made straight and cut. Figure it out.

 

[ragingspeedhorn]

You can discuss your (shitty) private servers as much as you want to, wandmirror, just don't advertise, that will result in an infraction.

 

[brad.dude03]

Indeed. Advertising and Discussion of HOW to obtain a private server, host one, join one, etc, are forbidden, but for me to discuss the contents of one, I don't think it's against the rules

But Alfred, please just make your point plain and clear, as I tried to respond to it in my last post but apparently I missed the mark. Are you trying to say that i'm advertising for Ascent?

 

[The_wand_mirror]

Did i ever advertise? no i didn't. stop making up things that've been never done/discussed.

 

[Dr00d]

Did i ever advertise? no i didn't. stop making up things that've been never done/discussed.

You invented the question mark.

"?", "question mark", and "(?,?)" are copyright © 2007 The_wand_mirror. All rights reserved.

 

[brad.dude03]

What does this at all have to do with Private Servers and your thoughts about them? You're lucky I don't hit you with -rep for spam.

 

[alfredx_sotn]

My point was pretty simple.

I was simply saying, there are 213123123 different Private Servers ran by many different people. Every server has different standards, different population. By standards, I'm refering to the modified status of the server. Some server may be so heavily modified, everyone can get to level 12123123123 in 1 mob, some may be close to a Blizzard server.

With that, people have different preferences, or get to know of the Private Server via different means. People play on different Private Servers, people know different ones with different admin, GMs, standards. With that said, it doesn't really matter how much people your server can accommodate. Your server's ACTIVE population isn't comparable to live realms. This is because players are too spread out on every different Private Servers out there. You can prove me wrong by telling me YOU'RE ALL playing on the same Private Server. With a lower population, my point of 'lack of competition' holds true. If your server only has a population of about 1000 people with Horde/Alliance combined in the Arena PvP system, you're only having 500 active 2v2 teams.
If you compare it to the live realms' battlegroups' average 25-30k 2v2 teams, it's a whole world of difference. With just 500 teams, you can easily spot and memorize the set ups, know their play styles etc. In a real 25k 2v2 team pool, it's not very possible with all the unique set up, different people everytime, especially when they keep reforming teams, respecing etc.
That is where the game gets challenging and competitive. That is what makes WoW fun, the competitive factor of it.

On the PvE aspects, the fun comes from the different progression of different guilds. On live realms you have a huge number of different guild, ranging from scrub to hardcore 1337 guilds. Different guilds have different progression from how coordinated the guild is. Because they all do raids in the same standards as they're all in the live realms, progressed guilds earn the rights to be proud, while less progressed guilds who can't get past kara within 2 weeks will be deemed as scrubs.
People work hard in their raid so they get to keep climbing in progression, to get the epeen factor, while competiting other guilds' progressions.

While on a Private Server, both of those won't be possible. The competitive factor of both PvP and PvE will lose out by ALOT. It's not even fun playing against the same SMALL pool of people. Different servers can't be compared as mentioned before, they are all differently modified in their owner's preference.

If you want to play the game just for the exploration, for the 'omg I think it's fun to be a GM' factor, it's good as playing a single-player RPG game like Might and Magic series, or some other similar ones with cheats activated.

That is basically what I think about Private Servers. I just don't view them as REAL MMORPG because they don't have a common standard.

 

[Neoktyn]

Wanna compare it to live realms? OKAY.

The largest U.S. server has ~33,400 people playing on it. (Last time I checked). That beats the living hell out of ~900 people. (On the more popular servers, too.)

 

[ragingspeedhorn]

Did i ever advertise? no i didn't. stop making up things that've been never done/discussed.

You asked if you were allowed to talk about how many players played on your private server or something like that and if it was advertising, I then gave you an answer. No need for your excessive hostile stance.

 

[Tyranid]

PvP in WoW is horrible.

 

[alfredx_sotn]

It probably does, because there are too many people crying over it and then not able to break 1.3k rating bracket. I guess some people are just born to suck.

born2suck

 

[The_wand_mirror]

You invented the question mark.

"?", "question mark", and "(?,?)" are copyright © 2007 The_wand_mirror. All rights reserved.

'The strangest post i've seen' copyright © 2007Dr00d??

What does this at all have to do with Private Servers and your thoughts about them? You're lucky I don't hit you with -rep for spam.

Stop threatening me with -rep just because you don't like me lol .. and don't say you don't..

You asked if you were allowed to talk about how many players played on your private server or something like that and if it was advertising, I then gave you an answer. No need for your excessive hostile stance.

Ok.

PvP in WoW is horrible.

I always lose -.-

 

[brad.dude03]

Great, I rape face at WoW PVP, but I still don't like it. Furthermore, I was talking t Dr00d, not you, dumbass, so stop automatically assuming that i'm out to get you just because I dislike you EXTREMELY.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

private servers own and if you cant accept that its because you are a blizzard bum boy and a failure....

 

[Dr00d]

YES. +Rep GST. =D

 

[alfredx_sotn]

private servers own and if you cant accept that its because you are a blizzard bum boy and a failure....

LOL GEORGE BUSH OWN I HAVE NFI WHY BECAUSE I'M RETARDED NOT TO GIVE REASONS BUT IF YOU CAN'T ACCEPT IT'S BECAUSE I'M REALLY RETARDED.....dotdotdotdotdotcuzitskool

k.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

reasons why private servers own:

Free
Can explore usually unaccessable places
Experiment with legendary gear and mount
Build super characters for fun
Solo molten core lol!
Dont need internet connection to explore
Dont get annoying germans in you way why you are on GM island on your legendry flying mount

reasons why private servers suck:

Coz it makes blizzard cry.....CARE????

if you dont like private servers coz they are illegal then you are just a fag with no balls. man up ffs.

 

[alfredx_sotn]

reasons why private servers own:

Free
Can explore usually unaccessable places
Experiment with legendary gear and mount
Build super characters for fun
Solo molten core lol!
Dont need internet connection to explore
Dont get annoying germans in you way why you are on GM island on your legendry flying mount

reasons why private servers suck:

Coz it makes blizzard cry.....CARE????

if you dont like private servers coz they are illegal then you are just a fag with no balls. man up ffs.

Hahaha I don't like Private Servers for the reason of your 'fun'.

Clearly it's just self-satisfaction, go jack off, you get a better feeling.
Or as stated, play a BETTER singleplayer game.

EDIT: And obviously it's people like you that made Private Servers look bad in the way I described earlier. I guess some people just suck and can't handle playing against other people online in a more challenging way. I wonder who's the fag with no balls now .

 

[Hakeem]

There no need to flame about pure opinion. Which this is apparently, purely opinion.