WC3 Draenei with demons?

[MasterHaosis]

Ok guys, lets discuss this.
We know, that Draenei are ancient enemies with Demons and Fel orcs for generations. Those were killing Draenei on sight. But that clan is with Akama only, they are resistance and thanks to their unique stealth ability, they survived so long.
But not everyone follows Akama, so my questions is are Draenei working with demons in Outland?
Several points/facts:

1. They are as creeps alongside with demons. As creeps they are specially designed for supporting demons anyway (heal, healing wave, briliance aura, rays of disruption) those abilities which demons lack completely. And serve as weakest units (Draenei level 1, for mass dying) which implies that those are either working with them or are enslaved.
But counter point is that those are in melee game where balance is put at first factor while logic and story is at second, so while logical this could not be 100% correct statement.

2. In Gates of abyss mission, there is Neutral Mercenery Camp near Fel orc base and Demons, guarded by Magtheridon's Nether Dragons. That Mercenery camp actually can train Fel beast, Draenei Seer and Draenei Stalker, so according to fact that it is under of Demon's control, they can always use units from that camp.
Also, in that mission there are several enslaved dranei which you free, so they are under your control. If you haven't freed them, they would be most likely become demon slaves.

From wow wikia:
,,Freed draenei prisoners.
Draenei Stalker: "Thank you, strangers. The wretched orcs nearly had us this time. If you seek to put an end to them, then our bravest warriors will assist you."
Draenei Vindicator: "Old Akama told us of your exploits. We will aid you in Lord Illidan's name!"
Draenei Seer: "You saved our lives. We are yours to command, blood elf."

3. See this

As you can see, when Illidan mention that he took control over magtheridon's forces, there in audience were Fel orcs, Fel Guard, Sucubbus and several draenei, which could be seen in flashback at moment.
So either as slaves, as mercenaries or as some reserves, but definitively they were with magtheridon. Although not seen in map in battle of course.

4. We already know that those are not original Draenei, those are broken/lost ones. That means that fel corruption already started to mutate/corrupt them which means that they went either rogue or neutral or went to side with demons. Only one part is following Akama. Also we know that Draenei were enslaved by Demons and Fel Orcs... In case of Demon we know that Demons corrupt slaves, making slaves to work/fight for them. And according to fact that draenei are already mutated, demons need little work, few cup of blood and that is it. (In Outland there are tons of Fountain of blood)

So what do you think? I think that Draenei (broken/lost ones) are definitively working with demons in some form (slaves, merceneries or with free will), although not as main force, but as suporters or such.

 

[Arad MNK]

Maybe that's True, Maybe Not.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Yeah, thats what I wanted to see, your opinions... I still wait VeljkoM with his sense of logic, Xonok and some other people...

 

[VeljkoM]

Ask and you shall receive.

From purely Warcraft series perspective.

First things first, collectively Draenei hate orcs and demons. Most notable thing is that Draenei are on the verge of extinction in Wc3 (extinct in prior games) and it is purely because of the actions of orcs who weren't keen on keeping prisoners. Demons do on the other hand employ sufficiently corrupted beings but on Dreanor they picked orcs and made them kill everyone else. I am not convinced orcs were peaceful before demon influence anyway.

Point 1
Creeps in game are all allied by default and is purely gameplay factor. Not just case of Draenei and Demons, many other creep races should tear each other apart.

Point 2
That is a standard Outland Mercenary camp and again I believe it is purely gameplay and not story aspect. Other camps also have very odd race combinations. Alternatively fel stalkers are "tamed" by draenei but no idea for Void Walkers.

As for prisoners they could be sacrifices (like orcs did in RoC human mission 2) or Orcs wanted to torture them slowly. Orc attention span seems short and requires killing to be satisfied and if they would kill all draenei they would then start killing each other... kinda like the original reason for coming to Azeroth in the first place before wc3.

Point 3
To be honest I always thought that was Illidan talking to his army collectively and at that point all served him unquestionably. I am more curious why naga and blood elves aren't there.

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Regarding WoW perspective it is much more acceptable to think that Lost Ones are wiling to work for Burning Legion. They are feral and are equivalent of Fel Orcs as they are corrupted race. There are probably some examples but honestly I didn't care if hostile draenei mobs were Ilidari or Burning Legion aligned I just killed them.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Ask and you shall receive.

Yeah man! You and me are good combo for good lore/logic conversations and exchanging tons of text.
I ask this primary because I plan to make map with original eredar Draenei against Demons, so I need to know out of curiosity if lorewise it is right to put those broken/lost ones under Demons or I should replace those.

First things first, collectively Draenei hate orcs and demons. Most notable thing is that Draenei are on the verge of extinction in Wc3 (extinct in prior games) and it is purely because of the actions of orcs who weren't keen on keeping prisoners.

Yeah, in the past, Draenei loved alongside with Orcs, and since Burning Legion came and turned Orcs against Draenei to eradicate them.

Demons do on the other hand employ sufficiently corrupted beings but on Dreanor they picked orcs and made them kill everyone else.

Yeah that bothers me. Demons picked Orcs there, but they are famous of corrupting each race changing them to fight against their own kind: Fel orcs against Orcs, Corrupted Night Elves against Night Elves, Undead against Humans/Elves/Dwarves.... So corrupted side of Draenei are Lost ones.
Thats where I wonder...

I am not convinced orcs were peaceful before demon influence anyway.

Yeah, I do not know how Burning Legion managed to turn Orcs against Draenei so easily according to fact that they loved alongside each other for Generations... That proves that Orcs were bloodthirsty all time...

Point 1
Creeps in game are all allied by default and is purely gameplay factor. Not just case of Draenei and Demons, many other creep races should tear each other apart.

Yes, that is what I though so.
But you noticed that Draenei are designed to be healers mostly as creeps without heavy unit, while demons have everything except healers... So they combined have everything (at least in Skirmish maps because of gameplay most likely)

Point 2
That is a standard Outland Mercenary camp and again I believe it is purely gameplay and not story aspect. Other camps also have very odd race combinations.

Well this Mercenary camp is not standard as in standard maps. Aside from different look (tinting color) it varies at unit which you can choose.
In this mission you can buy Drenei Vindicator, Draenei Seer and Draenei Stalker. And it was directly near Dimensional Gates under Demon's control.
Regular Outland Mercenary Camp can sell Fel Beast, Draenei Disciple, Voidwalker, Draenei Darkslayer, completely different choice.

Alternatively fel stalkers are "tamed" by draenei but no idea for Void Walkers.

I haven't seen this. Maybe it is in WOW present, but yet again there are no other animals in Outland aside from dune worms, fel boars and fel beasts, so Draenei are using them as pets.

As for prisoners they could be sacrifices (like orcs did in RoC human mission 2) or Orcs wanted to torture them slowly. Orc attention span seems short and requires killing to be satisfied and if they would kill all draenei they would then start killing each other... kinda like the original reason for coming to Azeroth in the first place before wc3.

Yes, you know that better from previous games, you are expert. I am expert only for demons and their corrupted races.
But those orcs are not regular rogue orcs. They are Magtheridon's Orcs, even more brutal than original ones, but under his total control. They cannot do randomly kills or sacrifices or whatever they did in past unless order has been given from Magtheridon or some high ranked demon.
That bothers me too, either they are ordered to do whatever they want when capture Draenei or they are strictly ordered to capture them for further ,,improvements"

Point 3
To be honest I always thought that was Illidan talking to his army collectively and at that point all served him unquestionably. I am more curious why naga and blood elves aren't there.

Its because it is not his army... He does not need to say "Hear me now, you trembling mortals! I am your lord and master! Illidan reigns supreme!" since his army already know whose he is. But enemy do not know until now. Akama's Draenei know him ,,"I am Akama, Elder Sage of the draenei. Lord Illidan promised to rid us of our ancient enemies in exchange for our loyalty....""We draenei have fought the orcs and their demon masters for generations. Now, at last, we will end their curse forever. We are yours to command, Lord Illidan.""
They know him and met in person, but those neutral or Magtheridon's Draenei do not know him. Also if it is his army, there would be Naga and Blood Elves.

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Regarding WoW perspective it is much more acceptable to think that Lost Ones are wiling to work for Burning Legion. They are feral and are equivalent of Fel Orcs as they are corrupted race. There are probably some examples but honestly I didn't care if hostile draenei mobs were Ilidari or Burning Legion aligned I just killed them.

Yes, in WOW perspective it is said that some Draenei actually were with Burning Legion.

 

[VeljkoM]

Yeah man! You and me are good combo for good lore/logic conversations and exchanging tons of text.
I ask this primary because I plan to make map with original eredar Draenei against Demons, so I need to know out of curiosity if lorewise it is right to put those broken/lost ones under Demons or I should replace those.

Eredar originally were not related to Draenei, the demon warlock race were always Eredar. Broken/lost thing came from WoW TBC. So if you are going with WoW lore yes it is ok, but in Wc3 lore signs point more to no.

Yeah, in the past, Draenei loved alongside with Orcs, and since Burning Legion came and turned Orcs against Draenei to eradicate them.

I am not sure in any Warcraft Draenei and Orcs ever loved each other even before demonic influence. Draenei most likely originally just avoided orcs.

Yeah that bothers me. Demons picked Orcs there, but they are famous of corrupting each race changing them to fight against their own kind: Fel orcs against Orcs, Corrupted Night Elves against Night Elves, Undead against Humans/Elves/Dwarves.... So corrupted side of Draenei are Lost ones.
Thats where I wonder...

But before WoW-TBC, there were only Draenei, there were no corrupt and regular versions. Demons seldom decided to corrupt too many races, they chose one as vanguard till legion is summoned and then kill everything. On Azeroth originally it was Highborn/Satyrs, Orcs on Dreanor and when Orcs failed to conquer Eastern Continents they were replaced by undead. I am here now little confused because in Wc3 people act like Orcs were tasked by Burning Legion to attack Azeroth when they did it with help of Medivh and attacked on their own.

Anyway Demons prefer to kill/destroy rather than to recruit and recruits are usually tricked or wiling from beginning.

Yeah, I do not know how Burning Legion managed to turn Orcs against Draenei so easily according to fact that they loved alongside each other for Generations... That proves that Orcs were bloodthirsty all time...

Orcs are warrior culture, you can't be peaceful and war oriented at same time. As for what made orcs attack every race on planet and beyond is their thirst for battles. Orcs weren't directly commanded by demons, they were manipulated carefully by shadow council led by Gul'dan who was anything but loyal to the Legion.

Yes, that is what I though so.
But you noticed that Draenei are designed to be healers mostly as creeps without heavy unit, while demons have everything except healers... So they combined have everything (at least in Skirmish maps because of gameplay most likely)

Actually they have Darkslayer for heavy unit. Most creep races have small selection by themselves anyway and some are more suited for weak camps while others are stronger. Draenei are the weak camps, like gnolls and mur'guls. Usually anyway creeps tend to be grouped in same race groups instead of mixing and you can see in Outland maps that draenei usually are grouped separately from demons.

Well this Mercenary camp is not standard as in standard maps. Aside from different look (tinting color) it varies at unit which you can choose.
In this mission you can buy Drenei Vindicator, Draenei Seer and Draenei Stalker. And it was directly near Dimensional Gates under Demon's control.
Regular Outland Mercenary Camp can sell Fel Beast, Draenei Disciple, Voidwalker, Draenei Darkslayer, completely different choice.

You haven't mentioned Draenei only camp at all, you described only the usual camp. Anyway yes it is placed near demon controlled place but they don't use them at all. We never see actual draenei traitors fighting you on the side of legion.

I haven't seen this. Maybe it is in WOW present, but yet again there are no other animals in Outland aside from dune worms, fel boars and fel beasts, so Draenei are using them as pets.

Was just my guess about taming. And I believe I told you once there are wolves on Dreanor because Orcs had Wolfriders always and Akama has spirit wolves. You can't expect game to show you full selection of flora and fauna... there is an issue of there being no dragons yet orcs having Dragonmaw clan.

Yes, you know that better from previous games, you are expert. I am expert only for demons and their corrupted races.
But those orcs are not regular rogue orcs. They are Magtheridon's Orcs, even more brutal than original ones, but under his total control. They cannot do randomly kills or sacrifices or whatever they did in past unless order has been given from Magtheridon or some high ranked demon.
That bothers me too, either they are ordered to do whatever they want when capture Draenei or they are strictly ordered to capture them for further ,,improvements"

They are bloodthirsty Orcs, blind rage and thirst for blood are not what you find in disciplined troops. They most certainly can randomly kill or sacrifice, same as demonic races. Magtheridon is a Pit Lord and they certainly would encourage this kind of behavior. They are fighting partisan guerrilla forces and are tasked to destroy them and captured Draenei are most likely interrogated because Draenei are most likely very good at hiding. I don't think they are being captured to be corrupted because honestly demonic corruption is actually a willing thing, a collaboration. Both Orcs and Satyrs willingly came to the Dark Side, while the unwilling races go berserk and become wild animals.

Its because it is not his army... He does not need to say "Hear me now, you trembling mortals! I am your lord and master! Illidan reigns supreme!" since his army already know whose he is. But enemy do not know until now. Akama's Draenei know him ,,"I am Akama, Elder Sage of the draenei. Lord Illidan promised to rid us of our ancient enemies in exchange for our loyalty....""We draenei have fought the orcs and their demon masters for generations. Now, at last, we will end their curse forever. We are yours to command, Lord Illidan.""
They know him and met in person, but those neutral or Magtheridon's Draenei do not know him. Also if it is his army, there would be Naga and Blood Elves.

It is megalomaniac speech where he asserts his dominion over everyone. He isn't introducing himself "Hi my name is Illidan", he is making it clear that now he is the new Lord of Outland and the he reigns supreme.

Or Draenei are freed slaves from cages.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Eredar originally were not related to Draenei, the demon warlock race were always Eredar. Broken/lost thing came from WoW TBC. So if you are going with WoW lore yes it is ok, but in Wc3 lore signs point more to no.

Yeah! Exactly. That was exactly what I came to conclusion, but wanted to check anyway. If you play WC3 Draenei just use them as enemy as they are supposed to be, and if you want to have original Eredar Draenei, then you can put broken/lost ones as corrupted Draenei siding with demons.

I am not sure in any Warcraft Draenei and Orcs ever loved each other even before demonic influence. Draenei most likely originally just avoided orcs.

I do not know. I read that from WOW that they lived peaceful, then under Legion's influence, Orcs started to attack and slain Draenei, thats why they hate Horde even now, and are still peaceful unless they see Orc, and attack him when opportunity rises.

Demons seldom decided to corrupt too many races, they chose one as vanguard till legion is summoned and then kill everything.

Exactly... or they corrupted some race for specific missions, such as Corrupted Night Elves for spreading corruptions and restricting anyone to get near those Ancients of Winds where Furion got to enter to awake Druids of Talons... Remember that Satyr telling them ,,Lord Thikodrius commands us to kill anyone attempts to enter this forests.. and we shall"

On Azeroth originally it was Highborn/Satyrs, Orcs on Dreanor and when Orcs failed to conquer Eastern Continents they were replaced by undead. I am here now little confused because in Wc3 people act like Orcs were tasked by Burning Legion to attack Azeroth when they did it with help of Medivh and attacked on their own.

After Orcs failure they indeed replaced them with Undeads. But they still convert Orcs for killing Cenarius for them. Also remember that mannoroth were searching specifically for them. he, Archimode and Tichodroius talked about Orcs because they still needed them. That is how Chaos Orcs became. Unlike Fel orcs, whose are converted orcs from Outland, Chaos Orcs are corrupted clan from Grom Hellscream, and after killing Cenarius, they are set into barrens, probably to start spreading corruption there as well, and stopping Thrall's Orcs.

Anyway Demons prefer to kill/destroy rather than to recruit and recruits are usually tricked or wiling from beginning.

I don't think they are being captured to be corrupted because honestly demonic corruption is actually a willing thing, a collaboration. Both Orcs and Satyrs willingly came to the Dark Side, while the unwilling races go berserk and become wild animals.

hehe, I am demonologist here, expert for those, ask me
This is not completely correct. We probably misunderstood each other by meaning of ,,corruption" word. You though by turning side, but by corruption I meant mutation and all what comes with it...
many races are converted unwillingly. Remember that demons were using skull of Guldan to turn Arshewalle forest into Felwood with swamps... There, many races were corrupted. Treants into poison treants, in campaigns also Fulborgs were sick and mad etc. etc...
Seems that not only meaning of corruption is turning to another side, but to spreading chaos as well. its much easier for Demons to conquer Arshewalle where creatures being mad and corrupted started to kill each other, so Demons could clear rest of resistance than direct assault against all creatures siding against them.
Also, it is said and mentioned many times in game and in wow wikia that any race under demonic energies can become mutated/corrupted. Of course, you must stay some times under their fel energu or drink several times from their blood or fountains, but everyone will be turned there. In Outland, Draenei mutated into Broken, and lastly into Lost Ones. Even those neutral pig mutated into Fel Boars... Remember that Blood Elves, thirst for magic drained Demonic mana for some period, and they started mutating as well into Fel Blood Elves...
So, what you talk about is making deal with Demons, which many clans from various races accepted in exchange for saving their lives or some personnel usage.... They turned mutated as well mostly, but I am talking just about Demonic corruption's effect which is present near demons themselves which mutate races unwillingly.

Orcs are warrior culture, you can't be peaceful and war oriented at same time. As for what made orcs attack every race on planet and beyond is their thirst for battles. Orcs weren't directly commanded by demons, they were manipulated carefully by shadow council led by Gul'dan who was anything but loyal to the Legion.

Yeah, you know this better than me... I read such things too but better to ask you. I know very good from where Demons come to total control them, after Draenor's explosion...

Actually they have Darkslayer for heavy unit.

Nah.. Level 5... They can't stand much with heavier units if he is only defending them. Against Fel beasts, Felguard, some Sucubbus, Voids (all basic units from Level 1 up to level 4) they can beat or stand chance, but Fel orcs and Demons from level 5+ ...............

Most creep races have small selection by themselves anyway and some are more suited for weak camps while others are stronger. Draenei are the weak camps, like gnolls and mur'guls. Usually anyway creeps tend to be grouped in same race groups instead of mixing and you can see in Outland maps that draenei usually are grouped separately from demons.

I do not know, I think I have seen Draenei with demons there, but still you are right, you have point

You haven't mentioned Draenei only camp at all, you described only the usual camp.

Oh sorry, my bad, I confused you. I said ,,In Gates of abyss mission, there is Neutral Mercenery Camp near Fel orc base and Demons, guarded by Magtheridon's Nether Dragons. That Mercenery camp actually can train Fel beast, Draenei Seer and Draenei Stalker, so according to fact that it is under of Demon's control, they can always use units from that camp."
Yeah, I mistaken it with regular camp, not this specific one, I later checked which units exactly it can train.

Anyway yes it is placed near demon controlled place but they don't use them at all. We never see actual draenei traitors fighting you on the side of legion.

Yes, but we all know what this means in game, and specially it is mentioned in manuals, that Mercenery Camp can sell units FOR ANY RACE. That means if someone is just not using it, does not mean that he cannot use it.
As you said, they hate Draenei, so they perhaps does not want use them. Maybe they even put their forces to guard camp to prevent player of using them.
But still, that depend of commander/player right? If I were commanding, I would hire some Draenei. (how would I heal my forces anyway?) If it were Pitlord/Dreadlord/Fel Orc hero, they would not.
But you have choice to hire them, although I think that it is more designed for player. But in reality, that camp existed here even before Illidan came, who knows how long.

Was just my guess about taming. And I believe I told you once there are wolves on Dreanor because Orcs had Wolfriders always and Akama has spirit wolves. You can't expect game to show you full selection of flora and fauna... there is an issue of there being no dragons yet orcs having Dragonmaw clan.

yeah, Red Dragons are also mystery in Outland. They are not present, but are trained from Fel Orc beastiary... Only reason why is that because Red Dragons have chaos damage, fires fire breath and has red skin, same as Fel orc's profile...

They are bloodthirsty Orcs, blind rage and thirst for blood are not what you find in disciplined troops.

Remember when Grom Hellscream after drinking blood of Cenarius talked with Mannorth... he tried to resist saying that they are free, then Mannorth said that they belongs to him now... And After that he and his clan were completely blindly servitors of Burning Legion. Remember that there Chaos Grunts were repeating while attacking your base ,,We are serving Legion now", also Grom Hellscream was completely denying Thrall's request to stop this madness and come with him, saying that demons are their future... yes he also mentioned that they drank blood with their own will, but in meaning of power. he did not know that side effect of this is completely mind control by demons. When he got purged he said ,,I see clearly now... I am sorry" which means that he could not control himself. So regardless how they are brutal and blood thirst they listen their master's orders unquestionably. And never disobey them.

They most certainly can randomly kill or sacrifice, same as demonic races. Magtheridon is a Pit Lord and they certainly would encourage this kind of behavior.

And this proves my point and whatever they do, they must be told/encouraged/ordered... They can do rampage everywhere, unless told otherwice by their demon master.
You remember that Orcs are not famous of strong loyality. Gromm Hellscream and several others are examples. Gromm did not listen Thrall not attacking humans, he even drank from that fountain of blood. But in case of Fel Orc, I haven't seen or heard for any order rejection given by demons.

It is megalomaniac speech where he asserts his dominion over everyone. He isn't introducing himself "Hi my name is Illidan", he is making it clear that now he is the new Lord of Outland and the he reigns supreme.

Oh yeah, I forgot that he is mentally disturbed as well, so it is in his nature to have such megalomanic speeches, you have point here as well.

Or Draenei are freed slaves from cages.

Yeah, that can be possible as well...
I forgot that there are enslaved Draenei in cages near your base as well in that mission. FelGuards are guarding them, down from where Butcher is...

Yes, you explain me nicely some things... Pit Lord would order Demons and Fel orcs to capture to torture or sacrifice Draenei instead of turning them to his side. I also think that.
But, my point is that when Humans, Orcs, Night Elves, naga etc etc.. except Demons or Undead captures someone, they cannot turn him to his side. They just can keep him locked, or torture him or kill him, but they have no way to convert him.
So my question is, can demons convert Draenei in Wc3?
Dont forget main thing, which I just remembered few minutes ago.... They have Queen of suffering. She has charm. So what could stop her to charm draenei locked in cage? Draenei Seer is Level 6. he cannot be charmed, but can he be turned with blood?
Remember also that in WOW it is explained that Illidan is using blood of Matheridon to convert kidnapped regular Orcs into Fel Orcs to increase rapidly their numbers. Can this be done with already mutated Dreanei?

 

[VeljkoM]

I do not know. I read that from WOW that they lived peaceful, then under Legion's influence, Orcs started to attack and slain Draenei, thats why they hate Horde even now, and are still peaceful unless they see Orc, and attack him when opportunity rises.

Peacefully yes, but not necessarily in love. Orcs were probably busy with hostile races like Ogres and such.

Exactly... or they corrupted some race for specific missions, such as Corrupted Night Elves for spreading corruptions and restricting anyone to get near those Ancients of Winds where Furion got to enter to awake Druids of Talons... Remember that Satyr telling them ,,Lord Thikodrius commands us to kill anyone attempts to enter this forests.. and we shall"

Satyrs were corrupted 10.000 years ago, when highborn sided with Sargeras.

After Orcs failure they indeed replaced them with Undeads. But they still convert Orcs for killing Cenarius for them. Also remember that mannoroth were searching specifically for them. he, Archimode and Tichodroius talked about Orcs because they still needed them. That is how Chaos Orcs became. Unlike Fel orcs, whose are converted orcs from Outland, Chaos Orcs are corrupted clan from Grom Hellscream, and after killing Cenarius, they are set into barrens, probably to start spreading corruption there as well, and stopping Thrall's Orcs.

I don't believe it was planned from the start to again use orcs (or to use orcs at all to attack Azeroth in the first place), rather it was result of strange circumstances. Archimonde didn't care, Mannaroth wanted to punish them personally for betrayal and Kel'thuzad even announced that orcs too must now be killed. Only Tichondrious came up with the idea when he saw the current situation, because that's how Dreadlords operate.

Also lets be honest chaos and fel orcs are same, just tft retconed name chaos because they thought fel sounded better. Personally I disagree.

hehe, I am demonologist here, expert for those, ask me
(shortened)

As I said "Both Orcs and Satyrs willingly came to the Dark Side, while the unwilling races go berserk and become wild animals.". I thought I didn't have to cover giant spiders, wildkin(owlbears), furbolgs, mutant murlocs and other unwillingly corrupted races. I can even use those wow examples, fel blood elves are the small group who wilgnly sided with burning legion while WoW Lost Ones are reduced to stone age which is shocking because apparently "real" draenei are in space age.

Nah.. Level 5... They can't stand much with heavier units if he is only defending them. Against Fel beasts, Felguard, some Sucubbus, Voids (all basic units from Level 1 up to level 4) they can beat or stand chance, but Fel orcs and Demons from level 5+ ...............

Level 5 or not it is still durable unit for the weaker creep race. Gnolls and Murlocs too lack stronger units by themselves. Not like Draenei are supposed in any way to be strong as demons in lore or gameplay.

Also I said "usually", sometimes but rarely blizzard does mix creeps. Even Demons and Draenei. Not in campaign though.

Yes, but we all know what this means in game, and specially it is mentioned in manuals, that Mercenery Camp can sell units FOR ANY RACE. That means if someone is just not using it, does not mean that he cannot use it.
As you said, they hate Draenei, so they perhaps does not want use them. Maybe they even put their forces to guard camp to prevent player of using them.
But still, that depend of commander/player right? If I were commanding, I would hire some Draenei. (how would I heal my forces anyway?) If it were Pitlord/Dreadlord/Fel Orc hero, they would not.
But you have choice to hire them, although I think that it is more designed for player. But in reality, that camp existed here even before Illidan came, who knows how long.

What you are talking about is gameplay not actual story. While in game all races can buy mercenaries, in story I beg to differ. I can't see Undead at all hiring living troops and I can't see some creep units being mercenaries at all.
The camp in that mission serves to symbolically represent Draenei that are fighting under your control. I doubt that Draenei would have an actual mercenaries camp at all as before Illidan came only Draenei and Demons would be buyers and for neither side makes sense to buy mercenaries.

yeah, Red Dragons are also mystery in Outland. They are not present, but are trained from Fel Orc beastiary... Only reason why is that because Red Dragons have chaos damage, fires fire breath and has red skin, same as Fel orc's profile...

I recall explaining that to you in some past thread. Red Dragons came in post second war period, during events of Beyond the Dark Portal expansion. Granted back then dragons were generic green and later we received 5 colored dragons and I don't want to talk about that insanity.

Remember when Grom Hellscream after drinking blood of Cenarius talked with Mannorth... he tried to resist saying that they are free, then Mannorth said that they belongs to him now... And After that he and his clan were completely blindly servitors of Burning Legion. Remember that there Chaos Grunts were repeating while attacking your base ,,We are serving Legion now", also Grom Hellscream was completely denying Thrall's request to stop this madness and come with him, saying that demons are their future... yes he also mentioned that they drank blood with their own will, but in meaning of power. he did not know that side effect of this is completely mind control by demons. When he got purged he said ,,I see clearly now... I am sorry" which means that he could not control himself. So regardless how they are brutal and blood thirst they listen their master's orders unquestionably. And never disobey them.

He said "You are the human's lapdogs, we serve only the legion now". Yes I do remember. I am not saying that Fel Orcs ever disobey their masters, what I am saying is that their masters don't need to encourage them to kill and satisfy their blood lust. Fel orcs are drug addicts and Legion are druglords and as we know drug addicts will do anything for some sweet sweet drugs. Anyway it isn't complete mind control it is alteration of orc minds to think the way Legion approves.

And this proves my point and whatever they do, they must be told/encouraged/ordered... They can do rampage everywhere, unless told otherwice by their demon master.
You remember that Orcs are not famous of strong loyality. Gromm Hellscream and several others are examples. Gromm did not listen Thrall not attacking humans, he even drank from that fountain of blood. But in case of Fel Orc, I haven't seen or heard for any order rejection given by demons.

They aren't golems or vegetables, orcs still have thoughts and needs. They don't need to be constantly ordered around. And it isn't like Pit Lord would ever give order "Don't kill innocent", or that Fel Orcs would for example ignore human that came from Azeroth just because they had orders to kill Draenei only. In case of Grom he still felt traces of bloodlust and probably isn't happy about being ordered around like he was a peon by a guy who is younger than him.

Yes, you explain me nicely some things... Pit Lord would order Demons and Fel orcs to capture to torture or sacrifice Draenei instead of turning them to his side. I also think that.
But, my point is that when Humans, Orcs, Night Elves, naga etc etc.. except Demons or Undead captures someone, they cannot turn him to his side. They just can keep him locked, or torture him or kill him, but they have no way to convert him.
So my question is, can demons convert Draenei in Wc3?
Dont forget main thing, which I just remembered few minutes ago.... They have Queen of suffering. She has charm. So what could stop her to charm draenei locked in cage? Draenei Seer is Level 6. he cannot be charmed, but can he be turned with blood?
Remember also that in WOW it is explained that Illidan is using blood of Matheridon to convert kidnapped regular Orcs into Fel Orcs to increase rapidly their numbers. Can this be done with already mutated Dreanei?

I still think Draenei wouldn't willingly join burning legion and that Demonic Corruption™ would only reduce them in to wild beasts that are of no use to anyone. Regarding succubus charm well it is actually seduction and I doubt that in story a succubus could maintain enthrallment constantly and on large numbers. Also I don't think blood would work same as it worked with orcs as orcs already were corrupted willingly and second taking of blood reignites the blood contract.
In WoW I was under impression that Illidan was using Pit Lords (that he killed -.-) to maintain fel state of his orcs since not like there were that many normal orcs around. Besides mud orcs I mean but aren't they supposed to be immune or something. Also it seems that Draenei are the only who actually get weaker from indirect corruption. The willingly corrupted Draenei on the other hand became strongest members of Legion.

Also you should ask "why". Why would Outland Demons bother with recruiting draenei who are dying out and of no use alive. And man I should really trim these posts more.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Peacefully yes, but not necessarily in love. Orcs were probably busy with hostile races like Ogres and such.

Oh yeah, you are right. They are bloodthirsty anyway, they lived with Draenei only because they were busy with other hostile races. If there were only Draenei, they would be attacked. So yeah you are right.

Satyrs were corrupted 10.000 years ago, when highborn sided with Sargeras.

Ih yeah, but I meant on newer Satyrs, caused by corruption. When Night Elf got affected by demonic energy, he will mutate into Satyr.

I don't believe it was planned from the start to again use orcs (or to use orcs at all to attack Azeroth in the first place), rather it was result of strange circumstances. Archimonde didn't care, Mannaroth wanted to punish them personally for betrayal and Kel'thuzad even announced that orcs too must now be killed. Only Tichondrious came up with the idea when he saw the current situation, because that's how Dreadlords operate.

Yes, maybe it was unplanned, under specific circumstances, but still they did it. They used them as tools, converting them into more powerful machines.

Also lets be honest chaos and fel orcs are same, just tft retconed name chaos because they thought fel sounded better. Personally I disagree.

It is same, they have same units, same stats etc etc.. But they just made it to difference new fel/chaos clans from old ones in Outland. That is also in similar manner explained in wowikia, although I agree with you. I also found chaos better than fel.

As I said "Both Orcs and Satyrs willingly came to the Dark Side, while the unwilling races go berserk and become wild animals.". I thought I didn't have to cover giant spiders, wildkin(owlbears), furbolgs, mutant murlocs and other unwillingly corrupted races. I can even use those wow examples, fel blood elves are the small group who wilgnly sided with burning legion

I did not know that, I though that those Blood Elves were just randomly mutated. it is explained clearly that mutation will come anyway because they were sucking demonic's mana and energies because of sun well's absence. And it started to change them, most noticeable is green flashes/flames from eyes. Even if they did not signed with demons, they would end mutated at end.
Seems that just being affected with fel energies will make you mutate slowly, while assigining with demons directly will get you more focused and powerful demonic energies which will cause you transform more quickly and get more powerful.

while WoW Lost Ones are reduced to stone age which is shocking because apparently "real" draenei are in space age.

Yeah... original Draenei looks very good especially with their pink crystaline architecture. Those lost ones looks awfully. hey are really degraded like one lost tribe. They are even eating lifeforms alive.
I do not know about their powers though.
But in Frozen Throne, those Draenei looks even worse than Demons anyway.

Level 5 or not it is still durable unit for the weaker creep race. Gnolls and Murlocs too lack stronger units by themselves. Not like Draenei are supposed in any way to be strong as demons in lore or gameplay.

Yeah. Why do you think that Gnolls or Murlocks do not have strong units? Same as with Trolls. Strongest is level 6

Also I said "usually", sometimes but rarely blizzard does mix creeps. Even Demons and Draenei. Not in campaign though.

Yeah. I found it in two maps

What you are talking about is gameplay not actual story. While in game all races can buy mercenaries, in story I beg to differ.

Yeah, perhaps you are right.

I can't see Undead at all hiring living troops

Actually they did. Remember that Sylvanas after freed from Arthas actually used all creeps she could find and trained them from merceneries to boost her forces and capture that dreadlord... Sure that she is not with Undeads any longer, but she was still counted as Undead in any meaning except for side.

and I can't see some creep units being mercenaries at all.

I do not understand what do you mean, but in case that you meant that there are no creep Merceneries, there are in fact.
Night Elves could buy some Fulborgs, Arthas could buy there merceneries with Muradin, and Night Elves with Blood Elves defending caravan hired many Merceneries.

The camp in that mission serves to symbolically represent Draenei that are fighting under your control. I doubt that Draenei would have an actual mercenaries camp at all as before Illidan came only Draenei and Demons would be buyers and for neither side makes sense to buy mercenaries.

Yeah... Which wonders me why did not you have acess to drainei by standard way... For example you could train Draeneis yourself after you freed them, or You could go to their own buildings and buy some. I do not get point of Neutral Mercenery camp. In later mission too, Lord of Outland. You can train naga, blood elf, but cannot replace killed Draenei. Only you can revive Akama.
Also, remember that there are some Mercenery camps in mission where you need to free Illidan locked in wagon while you commanding Kael, Vash's and Panda. Who would buy Merceneries there? haha that is supposed also to be for player only.

They aren't golems or vegetables, orcs still have thoughts and needs.

Need for blood can be always satisfied. There are several Fountains of blood and many fountains in black citadel itself. They would never die without food.

They don't need to be constantly ordered around. And it isn't like Pit Lord would ever give order "Don't kill innocent", or that Fel Orcs would for example ignore human that came from Azeroth just because they had orders to kill Draenei only.

No, I said that i havent seen any disobey of orders. They aren't given orders constantly because they have generic order ,,Guard Dimensional Gates or our borders from everyone/Attack anyone who is not on Burning Legions's side/Attack and kill Draenei when you see them. If you can capture them"
But what I meant is when they are given specific tasks, they always follow orders without exceptions, which is not always case with standard Orcs.
If Demons said ,,Do not kill VeljkoM, but kill MasterHaosis", they would indeedly capture you not matter how they are blood thirsty and hate you.

In case of Grom he still felt traces of bloodlust and probably isn't happy about being ordered around like he was a peon by a guy who is younger than him.

yes, but he could not control himself. That blood pact somehow hypnose them, not necessery mind control but something like that. Not single chaos (Gromm's Orcs) or Outland fel orcs are seen even to question their superiors.
Gromm hated Mannoroth but could not do anything about it since corruption were spreading more and more by each passing moment until it took him completely. But yes, if not comes by orders, they are more violent and wild than standard Orcs, more blood thirsty and more savage.

I still think Draenei wouldn't willingly join burning legion and that Demonic Corruption™ would only reduce them in to wild beasts that are of no use to anyone.

Yeah... that is possibility too. You have point. But still, corruption can cause them to attack themselves each other just as other race did. Maybe between their own clans. That actually in WOW is explained that corruption caused to them as side effect. Being reduced down greatly and lost their minds. They attacked anyone they seen. That made them enemies with everyone. That still benefits Legion after all that Draenei's are around spreading as mad creatures, whose are not connected or grouped very well.

Regarding succubus charm well it is actually seduction and I doubt that in story a succubus could maintain enthrallment constantly and on large numbers.

Call it whatever you want, but in it's description it clearly says ,,Takes control of a target enemy unit.Charm cannot be used on Heroes, or creeps above level 5"
So whatever name is, it takes control of enemy's unit instantly. And almost all Draenei (actually all except Draenei Seer) are under level 6. So any can be taken away under demonic usage if they wishes.
Those Queens of Sufferings are indeed not in great numbers, 2+2 in both missions, but in Gates of Abyss, two gates can spawn them. So technically, there are tons of those units which could be spawned with portal. And in game, you can charm as many units you can You can charm/posses even above 100 food as you already know.

Also I don't think blood would work same as it worked with orcs as orcs already were corrupted willingly and second taking of blood reignites the blood contract.

Also it seems that Draenei are the only who actually get weaker from indirect corruption. The willingly corrupted Draenei on the other hand became strongest members of Legion.

Yeah that is questionable. Perhaps blood would not mind control them or such, but would definitively do something, or if they are exposed further under fel energies... But yes, you have point here.
But that also can can be questionable. First we must know who can sign that pact. Grom Hellscream is hero. Heroes must do it willingly as they cannot be converted otherwice.
But if you remember that mission with Sylvanas and possesing creeps, when you posses strongest unit, Ogre Lord, Bandit Lord etc etc.. all their units come to your side. So basically you can capture and posses/charm some Draenei in charge, and he will trick his fellows to sign pact with you... I wonder what would happen then.
You mentioned that willingly signed Draenei are stronger. I do notk now about this. How they got stronger, what enhancements they got?

In WoW I was under impression that Illidan was using Pit Lords (that he killed -.-) to maintain fel state of his orcs since not like there were that many normal orcs around. Besides mud orcs I mean but aren't they supposed to be immune or something.

I do not know about those mud orcs much... And from where he captured Orcs. But those did not signed unwillingly and yet they got converted and mind controlled slaves. But yeah, that is WOW.

Also you should ask "why". Why would Outland Demons bother with recruiting draenei who are dying out and of no use alive. And man I should really trim these posts more.

I though that you know that already...
Well me, if you are commanding Outland Demons.... How would you heal your troops?
I would just need Draenei Seer as he has Briliance Aura, to restore mana around, Healing Wavem to heal my demons, and slow, to slow enemies if possible.
In case that I cannot get Draenei Seer since he is level 6, I will get Draenei Disciple because he has heal. And that another Draenei who has Rays of Disruption and Bloodlust.
Remember that Demons do not have healer just because in skirmish maps, Draeneis are suposed to be healers in Outland/Black Citadel.
So, only way Demons and Fel Orcs to heal themselves is to have Queen of Suffering with her Unholy Aura, and Death Coil to heal only Infernals, Doom Guards or Fel beasts. But she is quite costly, cause she is level 10. Other way is Fel Overlord with his vampiric Aura to restore some hit points but in combat only. And third way is that heroes use some items which are stored in maps to heal them. Quite hard eh? Only one Draenei unit will fill that hole.
Yeah, you have Fountains around, but what if you are far from them?

 

[VeljkoM]

Ih yeah, but I meant on newer Satyrs, caused by corruption. When Night Elf got affected by demonic energy, he will mutate into Satyr.

Actually Satyrdom is preformed by rituals, it is a gift. Well ok there was that blade that is said it could turn any race in to satyr... anyway it isn't standard demonic corruption.

I did not know that, I though that those Blood Elves were just randomly mutated. it is explained clearly that mutation will come anyway because they were sucking demonic's mana and energies because of sun well's absence. And it started to change them, most noticeable is green flashes/flames from eyes. Even if they did not signed with demons, they would end mutated at end.
Seems that just being affected with fel energies will make you mutate slowly, while assigining with demons directly will get you more focused and powerful demonic energies which will cause you transform more quickly and get more powerful.

Actually the only sideffects in blood elves from using fel magic turned up to be green eyes. Transformation is different if it is wiling or unwilling. Eredar vs Lost ones, Fel Blood Elves vs Wretched. The Chaotic transformation seems to be WoW more thing honestly because they became obsessed with it.

Yeah... original Draenei looks very good especially with their pink crystaline architecture. Those lost ones looks awfully. hey are really degraded like one lost tribe. They are even eating lifeforms alive.
I do not know about their powers though.
But in Frozen Throne, those Draenei looks even worse than Demons anyway.

WoW draenei are masters of arcane and holy light, broken and lost draenei can't even feel light and actually started using shamanism. Honestly if I wasn't told they are related I would have never made the connection.
Hey beauty is in the eye of beholder, besides back then Dreanor was harsh planet and races that lived there were not pretty. Until wow that is.

Yeah. Why do you think that Gnolls or Murlocks do not have strong units? Same as with Trolls. Strongest is level 6

Level 6 isn't that stronger than 5, besides those units usually act as leaders. And Murlock strongest unit is nightcrawler, on fellwood maps you have murlocs mutants who are stronger than regular murlocs. And of course mur'guls are stronger even further.
Trolls for lore reasons work with Ogres so they also get Ogre Lord.

Yeah. I found it in two maps

I can say in picture one succubus was very lonely and in picture two it is just demonic machine which could be stolen.

Actually they did. Remember that Sylvanas after freed from Arthas actually used all creeps she could find and trained them from merceneries to boost her forces and capture that dreadlord... Sure that she is not with Undeads any longer, but she was still counted as Undead in any meaning except for side.

My point was for Scourge Undead, Sylvanas undead (forsaken) aren't tasked to exterminate all life (yet at that time). Not to mention she was desperate. Besides merc units only appear after you brainwash creep leaders and mercenary camps serves to train units representing two forces you have captured.

I do not understand what do you mean, but in case that you meant that there are no creep Merceneries, there are in fact.
Night Elves could buy some Fulborgs, Arthas could buy there merceneries with Muradin, and Night Elves with Blood Elves defending caravan hired many Merceneries.

"I can't see some creeps" because some mercenaries aren't sentient beings. You can buy Revenants, Sea Turtles, Storm Lizards, Mud Golems (can argue you rent it from a mage) etc and none of those beings has any use of gold. Not to mention that some camps have races that would normally kill each other.

Yeah... Which wonders me why did not you have acess to drainei by standard way... For example you could train Draeneis yourself after you freed them, or You could go to their own buildings and buy some. I do not get point of Neutral Mercenery camp. In later mission too, Lord of Outland. You can train naga, blood elf, but cannot replace killed Draenei. Only you can revive Akama.
Also, remember that there are some Mercenery camps in mission where you need to free Illidan locked in wagon while you commanding Kael, Vash's and Panda. Who would buy Merceneries there? haha that is supposed also to be for player only.

Because you already get Naga and Blood Elf buildings and anything more would be excessive influx of units that would not have a role not already taken by units you can train. Draenei units in that mission don't offer anything that overpowered naga units can't do.
Mercenary camps don't make sense at all anyway.

Need for blood can be always satisfied. There are several Fountains of blood and many fountains in black citadel itself. They would never die without food.

It isn't literal drinking of blood, it is spilling of blood. They would die from killing each other (#1 reason why orcs attacked Azeroth). But anyway you missed my point, being vegetable means "brain dead".

No, I said that i havent seen any disobey of orders. They aren't given orders constantly because they have generic order ,,Guard Dimensional Gates or our borders from everyone/Attack anyone who is not on Burning Legions's side/Attack and kill Draenei when you see them. If you can capture them"
But what I meant is when they are given specific tasks, they always follow orders without exceptions, which is not always case with standard Orcs.
If Demons said ,,Do not kill VeljkoM, but kill MasterHaosis", they would indeedly capture you not matter how they are blood thirsty and hate you.

Who mentioned disobeying orders? My point is that fel orcs would still have fun (kill,torture) on their own even without orders. I am not talking about disobeying I am talking about taking imitative.
And of course they would obey Demon Lord if it gave direct order.

Yeah... that is possibility too. You have point. But still, corruption can cause them to attack themselves each other just as other race did. Maybe between their own clans. That actually in WOW is explained that corruption caused to them as side effect. Being reduced down greatly and lost their minds. They attacked anyone they seen. That made them enemies with everyone. That still benefits Legion after all that Draenei's are around spreading as mad creatures, whose are not connected or grouped very well.

Yes corruption can cause that. And yes wow expanded their story. Though Legion by the time of lost Dreanor to Illidan and there are surprising number of forces that oppose both like Shattrath City, Arakkoa, Blades Edge Ogres, Etherals etc. Lost Draenei being hostile really doesn't bring any impact there...honestly scariest thing in WoW in outland zones are players.

Call it whatever you want, but in it's description it clearly says ,,Takes control of a target enemy unit.Charm cannot be used on Heroes, or creeps above level 5"
So whatever name is, it takes control of enemy's unit instantly. And almost all Draenei (actually all except Draenei Seer) are under level 6. So any can be taken away under demonic usage if they wishes.
Those Queens of Sufferings are indeed not in great numbers, 2+2 in both missions, but in Gates of Abyss, two gates can spawn them. So technically, there are tons of those units which could be spawned with portal. And in game, you can charm as many units you can You can charm/posses even above 100 food as you already know.

Gameplay and Story Segregation.
What happens in game does not equal actual story. It isn't literal, it is symbolic.

Yeah that is questionable. Perhaps blood would not mind control them or such, but would definitively do something, or if they are exposed further under fel energies... But yes, you have point here.
But that also can can be questionable. First we must know who can sign that pact. Grom Hellscream is hero. Heroes must do it willingly as they cannot be converted otherwice.
But if you remember that mission with Sylvanas and possesing creeps, when you posses strongest unit, Ogre Lord, Bandit Lord etc etc.. all their units come to your side. So basically you can capture and posses/charm some Draenei in charge, and he will trick his fellows to sign pact with you... I wonder what would happen then.
You mentioned that willingly signed Draenei are stronger. I do notk now about this. How they got stronger, what enhancements they got?

The original blood contract was made between orcs and demons when they all willingly drank the blood on Dreanor. There is no such thing as Hero and Unit in story.
Possessing is whole different story. That is Banshee taking over the body, it is different person. Charm is seduction and seductions even magical ones have limits. Which is why you don't see living armies in Forsaken forces ever, except Horde allies.
Wiling Draenei = Eredar the strongest demons in legion; Unwilling Draeni = Cave man.

I do not know about those mud orcs much... And from where he captured Orcs. But those did not signed unwillingly and yet they got converted and mind controlled slaves. But yeah, that is WOW.

It would still be reigniting old contract green orc made in the past. Mud Orcs never made the contract which is why they never were green which is color of corrupted orcs (words can't express my hate here). Also I am calling them mud as an insult, Mag'har is actual name.

I though that you know that already...
Well me, if you are commanding Outland Demons.... How would you heal your troops?
I would just need Draenei Seer as he has Briliance Aura, to restore mana around, Healing Wavem to heal my demons, and slow, to slow enemies if possible.
In case that I cannot get Draenei Seer since he is level 6, I will get Draenei Disciple because he has heal. And that another Draenei who has Rays of Disruption and Bloodlust.
Remember that Demons do not have healer just because in skirmish maps, Draeneis are suposed to be healers in Outland/Black Citadel.
So, only way Demons and Fel Orcs to heal themselves is to have Queen of Suffering with her Unholy Aura, and Death Coil to heal only Infernals, Doom Guards or Fel beasts. But she is quite costly, cause she is level 10. Other way is Fel Overlord with his vampiric Aura to restore some hit points but in combat only. And third way is that heroes use some items which are stored in maps to heal them. Quite hard eh? Only one Draenei unit will fill that hole.
Yeah, you have Fountains around, but what if you are far from them?

Are you really implying that they would suddenly decide to get Draenei who are almost extinct race so the billions and billions of demons could have spell "healing wave". That would be rather odd even if I accept that Burning Legion doesn't have some form of healing. And again thinking from gameplay perspective about story.
There just isn't point for Burning Legion to waste their resources in to enslaving guerrilla forces on backwater destroyed planet. They already won there.

That is why when designing techtrees you don't use copy/paste creep units. I would myself make a demon caster that has ability to grant vampire/life steal effect. Or maybe I would have a building that can heal but mana can be restored only through sacrifices. Maybe a Hero that takes health from enemy and gives it to his own units.

 

[MasterHaosis]

You are my best companion for such conversations! Everyone is stepping away while we are talking

Actually Satyrdom is preformed by rituals, it is a gift. Well ok there was that blade that is said it could turn any race in to satyr... anyway it isn't standard demonic corruption.

That is also true, but main thing is explained here
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Satyr
,,Xavius had been corrupted by Sargeras himself and had the power to turn other willing night elves into Satyrs."
,,Satyrs are often found guarding corrupted moonwells. The Satyrs tend these moonwells corrupted with demonic energy. It is said that these pools are the source of new satyrs, transforming night elves into the twisted minions of the Legion. No one knows if corrupted moon wells work similar transformations in other species"

Actually the only sideffects in blood elves from using fel magic turned up to be green eyes. Transformation is different if it is wiling or unwilling.

It is true, but point still stands that transformation cannot be avoided. They got green eyes at beggining. They would get further transformations by time.
Yes we already agreed regarding that, that clearly there are differences between willing and unwilling corruption. But some things are certain and same in both cases: You always get mutated, and you always get violent, blood thirsty. Advantage of willing corruption is that you got more powerful abilities.

Eredar vs Lost ones, Fel Blood Elves vs Wretched. The Chaotic transformation seems to be WoW more thing honestly because they became obsessed with it.

Yeah and if you noticed there are several types of corruption, for each race differently. Satyrs with their corrupted moon wells, Fel orcs with demonic blood in fountains of blood, Undeads with Necromanic and death energies, Blood Elves with sucking life and mana from demons.... I do not get how other races got corrupted specifically mich, but one thing is common, that they got affected by demonic energies in various ways. Blizzard seems very obssessed with it haha. They seems to like turn each race to fight against its own corrupted versions.

WoW draenei are masters of arcane and holy light, broken and lost draenei can't even feel light and actually started using shamanism. Honestly if I wasn't told they are related I would have never made the connection.

yeah that is true. See that in Wc3, those Draenei's are using mostly shamanic stuff. Akama is using those wolves spirits, chain lightning, shadow strike and reincarnation, those Draeneis mostly uses various healings...

Level 6 isn't that stronger than 5, besides those units usually act as leaders. And Murlock strongest unit is nightcrawler, on fellwood maps you have murlocs mutants who are stronger than regular murlocs. And of course mur'guls are stronger even further.
Trolls for lore reasons work with Ogres so they also get Ogre Lord.

it is not that stronger than Level 5, but have something higher always. Troll Warlord is stronger than any other Troll for example. Sure, he does not have Heal, Inner Fire and ABolish Magic as level 4 Throll, but he is designed for fight. Draenei Seer is not strong as Dark Slayer perhaps, but he has the best supporting abilities.... Also, Level 6 creeps cannot be possesed/charmed and they got Hero reduction effect on spells.

I can say in picture one succubus was very lonely and in picture two it is just demonic machine which could be stolen.

One sucubbus, two voidwalkers and two Draenei.
Also, regarding Infernal machine, it cannot be stolen. This is not mechanical unit, it is regular unit, it has corrupted soul inplanted into machine, so you can use regular spells on it, everything as same unit. This is just demonic twisted mind... To make machines alive.
Real machines are those Catapults which you are stealing in Lord of Outland, and those which Fel Orcs are using against you in Gates of Abyss.

My point was for Scourge Undead, Sylvanas undead (forsaken) aren't tasked to exterminate all life (yet at that time). Not to mention she was desperate. Besides merc units only appear after you brainwash creep leaders and mercenary camps serves to train units representing two forces you have captured.

yes, but still they are used.
You see what we are talking here : This was specific case, this was specific case too, this was specific case too etc etc... So those combined are not just rare, that is common. Several specific cases makes something common.
Those Mercenaries camps are already used in several missions.

"I can't see some creeps" because some mercenaries aren't sentient beings. You can buy Revenants, Sea Turtles, Storm Lizards, Mud Golems (can argue you rent it from a mage) etc and none of those beings has any use of gold. Not to mention that some camps have races that would normally kill each other.

I do not know where can you buy Revenantsm Storm Lizard and Mud Golems.
Yeah about Sea Turtles... I forgot to mention that. Maeiev can buy them in second night elf mission on those broken isles.

Because you already get Naga and Blood Elf buildings and anything more would be excessive influx of units that would not have a role not already taken by units you can train. Draenei units in that mission don't offer anything that overpowered naga units can't do.
Mercenary camps don't make sense at all anyway.

No, that is not completely true. Draenei units are stealthed. You do not have such units in both Blood Elf or Naga. You also do not have siege weaponry. Draneie also in Lor of Outand has those specific assasins with howl of terror, and units with liquid Fire so they can stop buildings from produce units and being repaired. You cannot produce such units by Naga or Blood Elf.

It isn't literal drinking of blood, it is spilling of blood. They would die from killing each other (#1 reason why orcs attacked Azeroth).

yeah that is true. You are right here.

But anyway you missed my point, being vegetable means "brain dead".

While I agree with you, I also like ,,dobru slaninu na zaru i rostilj", but do not let some vegetable hear you. Seems that they can live on flora only....

Who mentioned disobeying orders? My point is that fel orcs would still have fun (kill,torture) on their own even without orders. I am not talking about disobeying I am talking about taking imitative.
And of course they would obey Demon Lord if it gave direct order.

No, you are right about that, you made your point.
I was just explaying my point that Fel orcs are not disobeying orders regardless their corruption made them even more violent and blood hunger than already violent Orcs... which means that this is also side effect of willingly assigning blood pact. They willingly do this, and though that they will be free, but turned out that they are slaves and peons.

Yes corruption can cause that. And yes wow expanded their story. Though Legion by the time of lost Dreanor to Illidan and there are surprising number of forces that oppose both like Shattrath City, Arakkoa, Blades Edge Ogres, Etherals etc.

haha Arrakoa, those parrots?
Sadly we do not have them in Wc3. But I always wondered why they are chosen to be in Outland. Blizzard should put them in Sunken Ruins as original parrots are from Tropical Areas. Since Turtles, Murguls, Crabs, Lobsters and other creatures are all tropical based.

Gameplay and Story Segregation.
What happens in game does not equal actual story. It isn't literal, it is symbolic.

Charm is seduction and seductions even magical ones have limits.

yes yes, that is right, but we missed one thing.
I were talking about third subjest: campaign gameplay.
You have Gameplay, story and campaign gameplay in war craft.
We cannot simply deny some things as you are following story but not playing it. What you are doing, you are actually playing map. if you ay that that by story there are no Mercenaries camps with Draenei and it is crazy to put red Dragons, that still does not change fact that you still play map where you can buy Draeneis from camp and that you must defend yourself against Red Dragons and yet again to kill several of them in Fel Orcs's big base.
yes, those are illogical but they are present in campaign.
Same with Charm, whatever it is called and explained how works in story, in campaign's gameplay when Queen of Suffering came from Demonic Portal, she can take control of your units regardless how it is explained to work. Or if you get close to her in Master of Pain's Area.

Which is why you don't see living armies in Forsaken forces ever, except Horde allies.

No, I said that they can use them/have ability to use them, not to posses, replicate and mass produce them. Just to capture and use.
Sylvanas actually did that, remember when forces were sleeping, they need actually to posses some humans to open gates for them, and you had hint to posses mortar teams for blowing up structures. So key thing for success in missions is actually to posses units.
That is great ability. when you asked me why would I use Draenei, I forgot to tell you three main thing of taking control over enemy:
1. Immediately removal of unit from his side (same as you killed it, one less for him)
2. One more free unit for you (one more which you did not pay to get killed, thus one more for him to kill it)
3. You can use it for various purposes, especially for some abilities which you do not have in unit's arsenal.
4. (although not exact gameplay point) Possesed/Charmed unit will tell you plans or such and will act as scout, so you can see though it's eyes... But yet again, no gameplay benefits. I am not sure, I may check but I think that you can posses critter and stalk enemy's base and they should not attack it.

Wiling Draenei = Eredar the strongest demons in legion; Unwilling Draeni = Cave man.

Yes. As any other corrupted race, in Felwood for example. Degraded, iolent and mad... Although Giant Spiders got stronger for example, and agressive. Those Fulborgs remained same, in firepower and abilities, but were sick and agressive. But yes you are right about that.

It would still be reigniting old contract green orc made in the past. Mud Orcs never made the contract which is why they never were green which is color of corrupted orcs (words can't express my hate here). Also I am calling them mud as an insult, Mag'har is actual name.

yes, you know that better than me. I just though that Maghar Orcs were the survived ones from Gromm Hellscream's clan after he got purged. It is explained that they also downgraded in some ways, using old abandoned architecture from WC2.

Are you really implying that they would suddenly decide to get Draenei who are almost extinct race so the billions and billions of demons could have spell "healing wave".

You are right abut that, I forgot that they can summon tons of demons from those gates.
But still it also proves my point too. Of those ,,billions and billions" of demons you also have hundreds of Queens of Suffering with their charm.
To take control of enemy unit requires just second for her, if unit is close of course.
But wait, why would not she/you command her to do that as it is also ability as anything else... Same as Shadow Strike, Howl of Terror, Cold Arrows, Silence etc etc... Charm is also part of combat and happens in the middle of combat. Unless, you decide to mind control captive.

That would be rather odd even if I accept that Burning Legion doesn't have some form of healing.

Well they do have certainly, but not in Outland there at Magtheridon forces present, at least in those missions.
Remember that there are Fountains. But still, same as mercenary camps, those are supposed to be for player used only, with exceptions when demons whose guarding those fountains are being healed.
We haven't seen any wounded demon units running though nearest fountain to heal. But yet again, following story, Fountains belongs to demons.

And again thinking from gameplay perspective about story.

Well yes, but campaign gameplay, not regular cameplay, I have to distinct that.
As we already explained and agreed on that actual gameplay is not focusing on logic. I cannot use those screenshots as some 100% valid points because Draenei are mixed with demons just for game or balance purpose, as they needed sometimes to put healers in creeps to make them harder to beat, instead of just throwing high leveled unit.

There just isn't point for Burning Legion to waste their resources in to enslaving guerrilla forces on backwater destroyed planet. They already won there.

Yes, but in fact Magtheridon lost later. because of several wrong moves.
Imagine if you had Draenei Disciples healing Fel Orcs and smaller demons, and Draenei Seers healing stronger units... Do not even want to mention that for me, the best duo combo is definitively Doom Guard + Draenei Seer in entire Outland. Doom Guard is famous for throwing spells at enemies, so when he is done, Seer's briliance Aura will help in faster restoring missing mana to both of them, and if they got hurt, there is healing wave, and both can shoot in air...
Also, imagine in Gates of Abyss, that enemy stealthed Draenei also were attacking you ocassionally... Another annoying treat which you could face of and think how to defend and conquer against.

Also, magtheridon did not use units which could reveal stealthed units, so Draenei could easily destroys those power generators... Doom guard indeed lately used Shades to reveal night elves, When Thrall is facing with Fel Orcs and Grom Hellscream, those fel stalkers and doom guards indeed had true sight ability to reveal stealthed units. But Magtheridon simply had his own bosses with True sight ability.
Lack of healers and stealth detectors costed him so much, as you cannot always to depend of demon reinforcements from gates whose are far away.

That is why when designing techtrees you don't use copy/paste creep units. I would myself make a demon caster that has ability to grant vampire/life steal effect. Or maybe I would have a building that can heal but mana can be restored only through sacrifices. Maybe a Hero that takes health from enemy and gives it to his own units.

Yeah, I would need those suggestions of yours.
I would also do similar. But I could use original abilities, to rename them and give different looking effect and icon. I could give unit such as Obisidan Statue with its unholy replenish mana/heal

 

[VeljkoM]

You are my best companion for such conversations! Everyone is stepping away while we are talking

FEAR OUR WALLS OF TEXTS PUNY MORTALS!

...almost sad I will not have internet for 2 months.

Ok so conclusion we have reached about demonic corruption/empowerment. We have willing and unwilling. Willing results in power up, while unwilling is random that either makes creature insane, mutates it or what ever blizzard wants it.
I only disagree with mentioning necromancy here.

yeah that is true. See that in Wc3, those Draenei's are using mostly shamanic stuff. Akama is using those wolves spirits, chain lightning, shadow strike and reincarnation, those Draeneis mostly uses various healings...

It is also reason why WoW Draenei players can be shamans, because broken ones are teaching them. Wc3 Draenei are just odd as they use Shamanism, Arcane Magic and Holy Light. I think thought shamanism is main though.

it is not that stronger than Level 5, but have something higher always. Troll Warlord is stronger than any other Troll for example. Sure, he does not have Heal, Inner Fire and ABolish Magic as level 4 Throll, but he is designed for fight. Draenei Seer is not strong as Dark Slayer perhaps, but he has the best supporting abilities.... Also, Level 6 creeps cannot be possesed/charmed and they got Hero reduction effect on spells.

Well aren't Dark Slayer/ Seer a combo of heir own? Creep races still in majority of cases stay in their own groups.

One sucubbus, two voidwalkers and two Draenei.
Also, regarding Infernal machine, it cannot be stolen. This is not mechanical unit, it is regular unit, it has corrupted soul inplanted into machine, so you can use regular spells on it, everything as same unit. This is just demonic twisted mind... To make machines alive.
Real machines are those Catapults which you are stealing in Lord of Outland, and those which Fel Orcs are using against you in Gates of Abyss.

Where did you actually get that info? I haven't heard about infernal machines being sentient. As for why they are not mechanical that really is mistake because even if it is alive it is still machine. I checked Infernals also and they are descrived as "mindless giants of flame and fury and can be summoned by warlocks and the nathrezim. They are not truly demons,[1] apparently more similar to constructs.".

yes, but still they are used.
You see what we are talking here : This was specific case, this was specific case too, this was specific case too etc etc... So those combined are not just rare, that is common. Several specific cases makes something common.
Those Mercenaries camps are already used in several missions.

I don't get you point. In that particular case it is player hiring units of previously brainwashed neutral leaders. My point remains that outside of gameplay mercenaries would not offer services to the obviously maniacal evil nor would those forces even care getting them.
In "campaign" gameplay Mercenaries camps as I said are symbolic if that particular mission wants to give you units outside of your own. Those camps are usually very rare in campaigns.

I do not know where can you buy Revenantsm Storm Lizard and Mud Golems.
Yeah about Sea Turtles... I forgot to mention that. Maeiev can buy them in second night elf mission on those broken isles.

You can buy Revenant in Northrend Camp, Storm Lizard I believe in Ashenvale and Mud Golem in Lordearon Summer.

No, that is not completely true. Draenei units are stealthed. You do not have such units in both Blood Elf or Naga. You also do not have siege weaponry. Draneie also in Lor of Outand has those specific assasins with howl of terror, and units with liquid Fire so they can stop buildings from produce units and being repaired. You cannot produce such units by Naga or Blood Elf.

Stealth is not that big deal and Warcraft lacks infiltrating unit role like starcraft. And you have Dragon Turtle for siege. Only the last mission Draenei are infiltrated always anyway. Blood Elf/Naga combined techtree covers all real unit roles: light melee (swordsmen, reaver), heavy melee (Myrmidon), ranged (snap dragon, archer), casters (sorceress, priest, siren), anti-caster (Spellbreaker, Coatl), light air (Coatl, Dragonhawk), siege (dragon turtle). The only thing missing is heavy air unit and as you can see even now some roles units clash with same roles. And naga are OP enough.

haha Arrakoa, those parrots?
Sadly we do not have them in Wc3. But I always wondered why they are chosen to be in Outland. Blizzard should put them in Sunken Ruins as original parrots are from Tropical Areas. Since Turtles, Murguls, Crabs, Lobsters and other creatures are all tropical based.

Sunken ruins have only been recently brought from the bottom of the depths thus creeps there are aquatic not tropical (besides Jungle Stalkers). It is actually quite odd it already has jungle ecosystem and even more puzzling Sea inspired architecture when the buildings in question were Highborn city located once in the center of continent before it exploded. Also they look more like colorful ravens to me and Blizzard needed more races for Outland.

yes yes, that is right, but we missed one thing.
I were talking about third subjest: campaign gameplay.
You have Gameplay, story and campaign gameplay in war craft.
We cannot simply deny some things as you are following story but not playing it. What you are doing, you are actually playing map. if you ay that that by story there are no Mercenaries camps with Draenei and it is crazy to put red Dragons, that still does not change fact that you still play map where you can buy Draeneis from camp and that you must defend yourself against Red Dragons and yet again to kill several of them in Fel Orcs's big base.
yes, those are illogical but they are present in campaign.
Same with Charm, whatever it is called and explained how works in story, in campaign's gameplay when Queen of Suffering came from Demonic Portal, she can take control of your units regardless how it is explained to work. Or if you get close to her in Master of Pain's Area.

Wait the point of the thread was "Wc3 Demons with Draenei" which implies it is "lore/story" discussion. As such gameplay campaign or melee can't be factored in to the discussion because what exists in any gameplay doesn't work that way in story. There are no units, no such thing as creep levels, abilities work differently and so on.
Also as I said Red Dragons have explanation besides "They are red, they spit chaos fire and are pretty.

No, I said that they can use them/have ability to use them, not to posses, replicate and mass produce them. Just to capture and use.
Sylvanas actually did that, remember when forces were sleeping, they need actually to posses some humans to open gates for them, and you had hint to posses mortar teams for blowing up structures. So key thing for success in missions is actually to posses units.
That is great ability. when you asked me why would I use Draenei, I forgot to tell you three main thing of taking control over enemy:
1. Immediately removal of unit from his side (same as you killed it, one less for him)
2. One more free unit for you (one more which you did not pay to get killed, thus one more for him to kill it)
3. You can use it for various purposes, especially for some abilities which you do not have in unit's arsenal.
4. (although not exact gameplay point) Possesed/Charmed unit will tell you plans or such and will act as scout, so you can see though it's eyes... But yet again, no gameplay benefits. I am not sure, I may check but I think that you can posses critter and stalk enemy's base and they should not attack it.

Sylvanas missions were tailor made to focus on possession gameplay because she is Banshee Queen.

The "why" part was from larger perspective and story perspective. From story perspective demons have no benefits except the 4th one but they can do that with torture too and probably in both cases they would kill the victim once it is useless to them. And pretty sure enemy would kill critter.

Yes, but in fact Magtheridon lost later. because of several wrong moves.
Imagine if you had Draenei Disciples healing Fel Orcs and smaller demons, and Draenei Seers healing stronger units... Do not even want to mention that for me, the best duo combo is definitively Doom Guard + Draenei Seer in entire Outland. Doom Guard is famous for throwing spells at enemies, so when he is done, Seer's briliance Aura will help in faster restoring missing mana to both of them, and if they got hurt, there is healing wave, and both can shoot in air...
Also, imagine in Gates of Abyss, that enemy stealthed Draenei also were attacking you ocassionally... Another annoying treat which you could face of and think how to defend and conquer against.

Also, magtheridon did not use units which could reveal stealthed units, so Draenei could easily destroys those power generators... Doom guard indeed lately used Shades to reveal night elves, When Thrall is facing with Fel Orcs and Grom Hellscream, those fel stalkers and doom guards indeed had true sight ability to reveal stealthed units. But Magtheridon simply had his own bosses with True sight ability.
Lack of healers and stealth detectors costed him so much, as you cannot always to depend of demon reinforcements from gates whose are far away.

He lost because he couldn't have expected that suddenly out of thin air armies of blood elves and naga would appear led by megalomaniac night elf. It is too strange for me even as I write this.
But because for some reason you want campaign gameplay talk well, it wouldn't mater if he had healing. He already had some of the most powerful units in warcraft but they were all used pathetically (campaign AI is not know for being challenging). Campaign AI never retreats, attacks in constant same weak waves, doesn't use environment. I mean AI would win if he would gather all units on the map and attacked you instead of passively letting you to kill him bit by bit.

No shades because no undead. Besides it was intentionally made that he has no stealth detectors (besides bosses) or else mission would be impossible.

 

[MasterHaosis]

...almost sad I will not have internet for 2 months.

What? Whyyyyyy?
Noooooooooooooooo man I need you here to exchange high quality options and conversations.

Ok so conclusion we have reached about demonic corruption/empowerment. We have willing and unwilling. Willing results in power up, while unwilling is random that either makes creature insane, mutates it or what ever blizzard wants it.

Exactly! Yeah that is... By logical conversations, we considered all reasonable facts and we have covered a lot of material to get on this conclusion.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Corrupted_creature
And here you can read more about how Legion uses corrupted races, and which ones serve them
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/Burning_Legion

I only disagree with mentioning necromancy here.

Ah yes, I just randomly wrote that, whatever were converting Undeads so I described in one word. There are many stuff and magics which can do that especially because Undeads are race of many races.

Well aren't Dark Slayer/ Seer a combo of heir own? Creep races still in majority of cases stay in their own groups.

Yes it is, but with Doom/Seer it is more powerful.. I am looking at abilities combo, not race. I am just saying if that Draenei Seer would be some demon instead Draenei, that would be perfect. That level 2 disciple would help lot too.

Where did you actually get that info? I haven't heard about infernal machines being sentient. As for why they are not mechanical that really is mistake because even if it is alive it is still machine. I checked Infernals also and they are descrived as "mindless giants of flame and fury and can be summoned by warlocks and the nathrezim. They are not truly demons,[1] apparently more similar to constructs.".

Yeah by description it is machine/construct by appearance, but not as its stats or behavior. Mechanical units cannot be healed, because they need worker to repair it. You cannot cast any spell upon mechanical unit because it is not alive. But Infernal Machines can be healed and can be cast any spells upon them same as upon any regular unit. And it is not mistake by Blizzard, they put that intentionally (you cannot do same mistake to all several types of unit), because as neutral hostile, who would repair them?

,,Infernals are produced by a green fire elemental called an "infernal soul", "
So even mindless, construct, they have soul, corrupted one, yes, but something which empowers them aside from fel energy.

I don't get you point. In that particular case it is player hiring units of previously brainwashed neutral leaders. My point remains that outside of gameplay mercenaries would not offer services to the obviously maniacal evil nor would those forces even care getting them.
In "campaign" gameplay Mercenaries camps as I said are symbolic if that particular mission wants to give you units outside of your own. Those camps are usually very rare in campaigns.

No, I meant there are several camps in campaigns, so it is not that rare, and those actually have great serve in some cases. Like Arthas when needed to burn those ships, like use for Sylvanas or Fulborgs helping Night Elf etc etc...

You can buy Revenant in Northrend Camp, Storm Lizard I believe in Ashenvale and Mud Golem in Lordearon Summer.

In regular or campaign gameplay? I have missed maybe but haven't noticed them in any campaign.

Stealth is not that big deal and Warcraft lacks infiltrating unit role like starcraft.

But permanent stealth is useful lot such as Shade or those Draenei without whose you cannot win.

And you have Dragon Turtle for siege.

Nah... Those are multi purpose. They are expensive and can devour units... I meant on specifically designed units for attack like Mortar teams or artillery which various units use, you know, artillery which can shoot at defenses at great distances outranging them.

Blood Elf/Naga combined techtree covers all real unit roles: light melee (swordsmen, reaver), heavy melee (Myrmidon), ranged (snap dragon, archer), casters (sorceress, priest, siren), anti-caster (Spellbreaker, Coatl), light air (Coatl, Dragonhawk), siege (dragon turtle). The only thing missing is heavy air unit and as you can see even now some roles units clash with same roles.

Exactly! But they combined covers all, single cannot stand chance against enemy. But still, they do not have those Long range artilleriesas Draenei have, no such units whose can stop buildings from production and repair, no healing wave for immeditelly restore points or brilliance Aura, or even bloodlust to enhance Naga Murmidons or royal guards... They would be even more powerful with just few Draenei units if they had ability to train them.
But yes, you made point. They have almost all covered pretty well.

And naga are OP enough.

I do not think so. Naga laso do not have any healers as they always must depend on some race to support them. naga does not have any heavy air unit, and must train Couatl if they want to abolish magic, while flying unit cannot have in reality such service, its much better if ground unit supports other ground unit. Also, naga do not have scout unit or they cannot reveal stealthed units. Naga do not have anti spellcaster, item production building as well. With other hand, Blood elves have it all except for heavy firepower, so Naga/Bloodelves are a must for each other.
Demons alone can outmatch them in any meaning, be it heavy firepower, be it magic arsenal, be it anti spellcasting, be it water fights (they are equal,remember fel orc boats and demonic hydras), be it air superiority (all three nether Drakes plus Red Dragon), be it Heroes (I think they are same, as aside from Pit Lords and maybe some natherizm in Outland, those Fel Orc heroes are not that inventive), be it in artillery, be it in defenses etc etc...

Sunken ruins have only been recently brought from the bottom of the depths thus creeps there are aquatic not tropical (besides Jungle Stalkers).

And besides Stormreaver Hermits, Skeletal Orcs, Sea Revenants, Demons in Tomb of Sargeras and Albatross.
But even aquatic, half of creeps cannot even go in deep water, so how could they live there? Crabs cannot go, Makura cannot go, Water Elemental cannot (although I would not count him as he is summoned unit).

It is actually quite odd it already has jungle ecosystem and even more puzzling Sea inspired architecture when the buildings in question were Highborn city located once in the center of continent before it exploded.

Yes, it has jungle eco system, tropical ecosystem more precisely with lot of water, rains, palms, tropical plats etc etc...
Thats why I said, parrots are need as they originate from jungles, and remember that in each Pirate movies, they have parrot there, which are common.
Even risen recently, those isles are big and can be magnet for many tropical creature to go there, especially those whose can fly.
Arakkoa could fly in perhaps by something.

Also they look more like colorful ravens to me and Blizzard needed more races for Outland.

yes, but they could be more invnetive. I mean I like Arakkoa, but they are in wrong tileset definitively.

Wait the point of the thread was "Wc3 Demons with Draenei" which implies it is "lore/story" discussion.

Well I did not say necessery strict to be hold by story, but yes, original storyline as one of factors to be discussed too... Actually as many informations gathered from various factors that is better.
So yes, you are not wrong to be stick directly at storyline.

As such gameplay campaign or melee can't be factored in to the discussion because what exists in any gameplay doesn't work that way in story.

I am now more focused at campaign gameplay which is related to storyline more or less.
I was watching directly at WC3 in Outland by those missions. So what I saw there I wanted to dicuss so I can know what to do in maps which I plan to create.

There are no units, no such thing as creep levels, abilities work differently and so on.

Yes I know. But I give this time advantage in campaign rather than what is being different in story but is shown to work slightly different in campaign.

Sylvanas missions were tailor made to focus on possession gameplay because she is Banshee Queen.

Yes, but as Banshee queen she has ability to do it.
other races cannot.
It is like saying that your Audi R8 is not fast just because you are riding it at 60km/h in city (while in reality it can go above 250km/h and can go to street races). But you are never riding it at that speed, you chosed not to do it elsewhere. That does not mean that it is slow and cannot go faster, that just meant that you chosed not to do it.
Same as with Demons. If they currently are not seen using Charm at some units, does not mean that they CANNOT DO IT. That is big difference between cannot do something and chosing not to do it. At least they have that ability. I would use it for example. maybe you would not. But all races aside from Demons and Undead even if they wish, they cannot do it.

The "why" part was from larger perspective and story perspective. From story perspective demons have no benefits except the 4th one but they can do that with torture too and probably in both cases they would kill the victim once it is useless to them.

Yeah you are right. But from gameplay perspective if I were commanding such army, first thing is that I would broke cages and try to convert Disciples if I could get them, and go to secure some funtians and that Mercenery camps further so I can train healers which I miss. As you already know, it is much difficult when you need to work on something, to wait camp to get unit in stock so you can buy it (which is slower than training it directly) than having that unit to be trained in your own building at any time you wish more quickly.
How would you try to solve that problem with lacking healing abilities in your army?

And pretty sure enemy would kill critter.

yes you are right. My bad, I just test it. I possesed pigs, and both neutral and Ai player killed them. There were some mechanical critter or something which is said in description ,,calls mechanical critter to spy at enemies", but I forgot how it works.

He lost because he couldn't have expected that suddenly out of thin air armies of blood elves and naga would appear led by megalomaniac night elf. It is too strange for me even as I write this.

Yeah, very weird. But that insane night elf knew all secrets since consuming skull of Guldan, and making pact with Kiljaden... He got great knowledge. he even knew his siege weaponry where is locked and all other details which took under his advantage.

But because for some reason you want campaign gameplay talk well, it wouldn't mater if he had healing.

of course not just because of that, but that is one of reasons and main disadvantage to any army.
As I said already, what if he had several healers near those Units Level 8+ ?
You attack it, and healer heals it... Sure that you would be able to beat such army too, but more difficult. If their army is backing up/restoring like you can (Draenei Seers or such units throwing healing waves rapidly around), you would have greater loses (or you could get focused to kill healers first as I do, but therefore stronger units will still have time to attack you while you are busy with healers), therefore more units you would need to create which would cost you greatly... And no much money....

He already had some of the most powerful units in warcraft but they were all used pathetically (campaign AI is not know for being challenging). Campaign AI never retreats, attacks in constant same weak waves, doesn't use environment.

of course that is also one of reasons of loss. Dumb Ai. yes that explains why Ai never runs towards ountains to heal itself and why does not have Item Purchase building for Naga/Fel Orcs.

I mean AI would win if he would gather all units on the map and attacked you instead of passively letting you to kill him bit by bit.

yes, but any Ai can beat you in any map in that way. But yes, those Fel Orcs have several Red Dragons in base and many units, you cannot beat him from first attack.If he collected that, you and Draenei would be dead in minutes... There would not be ,,We Draenei fought with cursed orcs and their Demon masters for generations" as they would be dead in single strike

No shades because no undead.

Yeah, there against Night Elves, Doom Guards used specifically Shades to detect them. ,,The huntresses warned Tyrande that the Doomguards nearby were using shades which could see through the night elves' shadowmeld powers"
So, later they modified Doom Guard and Fel beasts with true sight.
I wonder how Magtheridon did not do that since he knew that he were fighting against stealthed Draenei.

Besides it was intentionally made that he has no stealth detectors (besides bosses) or else mission would be impossible.

Yes that proves your point. I planned to do something different. To put original Draenei or Broken ones invading black citadel. To put much weaker defenses, to downgrade Fel Orcs to have same stats as regular Orcs except skin and such, to downgrade those overpowered bosses to Level 11 creatures, and Magtheridon to Level10 Pitlord, but to have healers and more units (Fel Orcs would have more unit choices in map rather than just few) and stealth detectors...

 

[VeljkoM]

What? Whyyyyyy?
Noooooooooooooooo man I need you here to exchange high quality options and conversations.

Going back home and no internet distractions.

Yes it is, but with Doom/Seer it is more powerful.. I am looking at abilities combo, not race. I am just saying if that Draenei Seer would be some demon instead Draenei, that would be perfect. That level 2 disciple would help lot too.

It is but so would be Frost Wyrm and Shaman, Dragonhawks and Chimeras. Sometimes races do need a weakness and Demons lack healing while having devastating units.

Yeah by description it is machine/construct by appearance, but not as its stats or behavior. Mechanical units cannot be healed, because they need worker to repair it. You cannot cast any spell upon mechanical unit because it is not alive. But Infernal Machines can be healed and can be cast any spells upon them same as upon any regular unit. And it is not mistake by Blizzard, they put that intentionally (you cannot do same mistake to all several types of unit), because as neutral hostile, who would repair them?

Well actually any mechanical units should still have drivers, so shouldn't spell effect them. And Infernal Engines are still made of metal, run on wheels, shoot from cannon so they are machines even if Blizzard didn't mark them as mechanical. I can only guess they didn't do it so they would be easier to kill by creeping heroes and not for the logical reasons.

,,Infernals are produced by a green fire elemental called an "infernal soul", "
So even mindless, construct, they have soul, corrupted one, yes, but something which empowers them aside from fel energy.

I am kinda more under impression that was stylistic name for material. To me Infernals always looked like Golem constructs made out of asteroid material and animated by fel magic.

No, I meant there are several camps in campaigns, so it is not that rare, and those actually have great serve in some cases. Like Arthas when needed to burn those ships, like use for Sylvanas or Fulborgs helping Night Elf etc etc...

As I said they only appear in specific missions when you either need mercs specifically or as symbolic help for player only. And they are rare you can count on hands: RoC Human 8 (mission that introduced mercenary concept, never knew what ogres were doing in Northrend), RoC Night Elf 7 (symbolic camps to represent Dark Troll and Furbold forces), TFT Night Elf 2 (random actually), TFT Night Elf 6 (the only source of new units), TFT Blood Elf 4 (only source of player controlled units, still odd to hire demons), TFT Blood Elf 5 (Draenei symbolism) and TFT undead 3 (only after getting respected bosses on your side, you lack most of undead units so you depend on them a lot).

Besides my original point still stands: it is not logical for Scourge Undead and Burning legion to deal with mercenaries and vice versa.

In regular or campaign gameplay? I have missed maybe but haven't noticed them in any campaign.

Regular campaign. In campaign at the moment I only remember Sea Turtle because it was unaltered camp.

But permanent stealth is useful lot such as Shade or those Draenei without whose you cannot win.

Yes but still only appears in last mission for campaign gameplay reasons. Draenei units that can be trained don't actually have it.

Nah... Those are multi purpose. They are expensive and can devour units... I meant on specifically designed units for attack like Mortar teams or artillery which various units use, you know, artillery which can shoot at defenses at great distances outranging them.

Well of course it is multipurpose that is what makes it better, so are siege engine, raiders, mountain giants and so on. It is still siege unit even if you disagree. Besides you also get Dragonhawks as aerial tower denial (dragonhawk, frost wyrm, chimera and troll batrider alternative role)

I do not think so. Naga laso do not have any healers as they always must depend on some race to support them. naga does not have any heavy air unit, and must train Couatl if they want to abolish magic, while flying unit cannot have in reality such service, its much better if ground unit supports other ground unit. Also, naga do not have scout unit or they cannot reveal stealthed units. Naga do not have anti spellcaster, item production building as well. With other hand, Blood elves have it all except for heavy firepower, so Naga/Bloodelves are a must for each other.
Demons alone can outmatch them in any meaning, be it heavy firepower, be it magic arsenal, be it anti spellcasting, be it water fights (they are equal,remember fel orc boats and demonic hydras), be it air superiority (all three nether Drakes plus Red Dragon), be it Heroes (I think they are same, as aside from Pit Lords and maybe some natherizm in Outland, those Fel Orc heroes are not that inventive), be it in artillery, be it in defenses etc etc...

MH, every single naga unit is broken. Reaver is strong as Grunt but costs less than ghoul, Snap Dragon gets poison for free, Myrmidon has very good stats and ensnare which can be very powerful if used properly, Sirens get parasite that can't be removed and all 3 spells are useful, Dragon Turtles are very hard to kill and can full many roles and last but not least is Coautl who is strong as Windrider but costs just 2 food and can counter magic. All units swim and are available at tier 1. No need to even mention Royal Guard who is a demi-hero. Items can be bought in neutral shops and only heroes are really lacking.

Of course not saying that demonic units aren't powerful too but they aren't designed as techtree, they are just sum of high level creeps that are naturally stronger than trainable units. Which can't actually be trained so that leaves them only with fel orc techtree which is very limited and just brute power.

And besides Stormreaver Hermits, Skeletal Orcs, Sea Revenants, Demons in Tomb of Sargeras and Albatross.
But even aquatic, half of creeps cannot even go in deep water, so how could they live there? Crabs cannot go, Makura cannot go, Water Elemental cannot (although I would not count him as he is summoned unit).

Hermits came after the sea was raised, Skeletal Orcs are cursed orcs that died there when it was raised and Sea Revenats ugh floated or something (souls of dead sailors?). And Already expressed my confusion about Tomb Demons.
As for not being able to survive in deep water, well nobody ever accused Blizzard for having any idea how biology works.

Yes, it has jungle eco system, tropical ecosystem more precisely with lot of water, rains, palms, tropical plats etc etc...
Thats why I said, parrots are need as they originate from jungles, and remember that in each Pirate movies, they have parrot there, which are common.
Even risen recently, those isles are big and can be magnet for many tropical creature to go there, especially those whose can fly.
Arakkoa could fly in perhaps by something.

And all that appeared in less then a decade on barren island previously located on the bottom of ocean. I am impressed!
Also Arakkoa can't fly...till current expansion which set in the alternative past. And well Arakkoa are located in forests anyway, they aren't parrots. Outland Ecosystems are varied too in WoW.

Yes, but as Banshee queen she has ability to do it.
other races cannot.
It is like saying that your Audi R8 is not fast just because you are riding it at 60km/h in city (while in reality it can go above 250km/h and can go to street races). But you are never riding it at that speed, you chosed not to do it elsewhere. That does not mean that it is slow and cannot go faster, that just meant that you chosed not to do it.
Same as with Demons. If they currently are not seen using Charm at some units, does not mean that they CANNOT DO IT. That is big difference between cannot do something and chosing not to do it. At least they have that ability. I would use it for example. maybe you would not. But all races aside from Demons and Undead even if they wish, they cannot do it.

Well in gameplay yes they could totally do that if they had brains. But in story they can not or at least not in meaningful amount or in way that behaves exactly like in game. Though Sylvanas in WoW actually lost charm ability and banshees seem rare now.

Yeah you are right. But from gameplay perspective if I were commanding such army, first thing is that I would broke cages and try to convert Disciples if I could get them, and go to secure some funtians and that Mercenery camps further so I can train healers which I miss. As you already know, it is much difficult when you need to work on something, to wait camp to get unit in stock so you can buy it (which is slower than training it directly) than having that unit to be trained in your own building at any time you wish more quickly.
How would you try to solve that problem with lacking healing abilities in your army?

Except that cages would spawn hostile Draenei and if I recall most were melee units and not healers.
I wouldn't really be bothered by lack of healing if I controlled demonic army as I already would have extremely powerful units. Infernals, Doom Guards and Fel guards on front, very wide selection of all kinds of ranged units with devastating spells and fel stalkers as hero chasers. Heck I would just make Red Dragons with orcs till I get 100 pop and lets see them stopping me.
I really wouldn't bother getting draenei units when I already have so many units.

yes you are right. My bad, I just test it. I possesed pigs, and both neutral and Ai player killed them. There were some mechanical critter or something which is said in description ,,calls mechanical critter to spy at enemies", but I forgot how it works.

Human Item, must be hard-coded ability.

Yeah, very weird. But that insane night elf knew all secrets since consuming skull of Guldan, and making pact with Kiljaden... He got great knowledge. he even knew his siege weaponry where is locked and all other details which took under his advantage.

Pit Lord is still supposed to be the military commander, Kil'Jaden and Gul'dan were covert operatives. But again Pit Lords seem to be idiots.

of course not just because of that, but that is one of reasons and main disadvantage to any army.
As I said already, what if he had several healers near those Units Level 8+ ?
You attack it, and healer heals it... Sure that you would be able to beat such army too, but more difficult. If their army is backing up/restoring like you can (Draenei Seers or such units throwing healing waves rapidly around), you would have greater loses (or you could get focused to kill healers first as I do, but therefore stronger units will still have time to attack you while you are busy with healers), therefore more units you would need to create which would cost you greatly... And no much money....

Or you know, have several level 8+ units together and not alone except at the very end. Get infernals on the front, Doom Guards on the flanks and Eredar casters rain down eternal pain.
They already had enough units to defeat you but because you are supposed to win they didn't use any of their numerous advantages.

Yeah, there against Night Elves, Doom Guards used specifically Shades to detect them. ,,The huntresses warned Tyrande that the Doomguards nearby were using shades which could see through the night elves' shadowmeld powers"
So, later they modified Doom Guard and Fel beasts with true sight.
I wonder how Magtheridon did not do that since he knew that he were fighting against stealthed Draenei.

He didn't get the memo that all Doom Guards must learn how to see. Mail is always late in Outland.

Yes that proves your point. I planned to do something different. To put original Draenei or Broken ones invading black citadel. To put much weaker defenses, to downgrade Fel Orcs to have same stats as regular Orcs except skin and such, to downgrade those overpowered bosses to Level 11 creatures, and Magtheridon to Level10 Pitlord, but to have healers and more units (Fel Orcs would have more unit choices in map rather than just few) and stealth detectors...

Oh so then it is WoW map. To be honest for something like that I would design Fel Orc and Burning Legion techtrees and get rid off creep units entirely and make Bosses Heroes. Since it is campaign and you don't play with Fel Orcs I would be lazy and make them more or less as regular orcs, definitely change Orc Warlock (never ever should caster have storm bolt ><), replace trolls with crossbow fel orc and Necrolyte (Raise Dead, Unholy Armor and Haste), keep Red Dragons (Nether for demons) and replace Tauren with Ogres (Fel Ogres?) because Ogres are natives in Outland. Would still need to think of something for an extra flyer. Probably would replace kodo as those aren't native on outland, unless you tell me they are Clefthoves.

Burning Legion already has wonderful selection of in game models alone. Fel Guard as light melee, Void Walker as ranged, Infernal or Doom Guard as heavy melee (nerfed), Diabolist and Succubus as casters, Fel Stalkers as anticaster (mana burn/feadback and devour magic), Infernal Engines as proper siege unit. What I would lack then is alternative siege/harass unit, several flyers (light/AA flyer, heavy magic flyer and optional 3rd).
Idea is to have 12 units (counting worker) in techtree ideally.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Going back home and no internet distractions.

No man... Please back while yo can. I would miss having good conversations with you.

Well actually any mechanical units should still have drivers, so shouldn't spell effect them. And Infernal Engines are still made of metal, run on wheels, shoot from cannon so they are machines even if Blizzard didn't mark them as mechanical. I can only guess they didn't do it so they would be easier to kill by creeping heroes and not for the logical reasons.

Yeah I though so. Although if machine is corrupted with soul, that means that soul is most likely using those metal parts as armor and that gun as weapon. For me construction look is just to show weirdnes of demons, not necessery that they do have infernal machines as some specific constructs, as they do not have siege attack. They are just like any random units.

I am kinda more under impression that was stylistic name for material. To me Infernals always looked like Golem constructs made out of asteroid material and animated by fel magic.

Similar here, but they always seems somehow weird for me, that they have something alive corrupted in them.

As I said they only appear in specific missions when you either need mercs specifically or as symbolic help for player only. And they are rare you can count on hands: RoC Human 8 (mission that introduced mercenary concept, never knew what ogres were doing in Northrend), RoC Night Elf 7 (symbolic camps to represent Dark Troll and Furbold forces), TFT Night Elf 2 (random actually), TFT Night Elf 6 (the only source of new units), TFT Blood Elf 4 (only source of player controlled units, still odd to hire demons), TFT Blood Elf 5 (Draenei symbolism) and TFT undead 3 (only after getting respected bosses on your side, you lack most of undead units so you depend on them a lot).

That are 7 missions. Still, camps are not used that rare.
TFT Night Elf 6 yes, you can buy even that Ancient Wendigo level 6 with force of nature ability and others.
TFT Blood Elf 4, yeah, one Draenei and three demons. Draenei Darkslayer, Fel beast, greater Voidwalker and Eredar Diabolist.
This is perhaps because not all demons are with Burning Legion, some are neutral alongside with Draenei. Or, what I prefer more, Blizzard made mistake.

Besides my original point still stands: it is not logical for Scourge Undead and Burning legion to deal with mercenaries and vice versa.

But it is logical for them to use various of troops in field. So not matter if they got it from possesion or buy (point of Undeads only), its not rare to see Undead having some other units with them.

Regular campaign. In campaign at the moment I only remember Sea Turtle because it was unaltered camp.

Yes and you actually have some use of it because it can swim in deep water.
Crab is meh, Necrolyte with purge is also meh... Small usage of them unless you need immediately to have bigger troops so you hire mercenaries while you can.

Yes but still only appears in last mission for campaign gameplay reasons. Draenei units that can be trained don't actually have it.

Draenei barracks actually can train Draenei Stalked which has permanent invisibility. Also Akama has it as well.

Well of course it is multipurpose that is what makes it better, so are siege engine, raiders, mountain giants and so on. It is still siege unit even if you disagree. Besides you also get Dragonhawks as aerial tower denial (dragonhawk, frost wyrm, chimera and troll batrider alternative role)

They are siege because they have siege attacks. But they are not artillery units. I meant direct artillery units as any race has. Yes, multifunctional means better, but also more costly.

MH, every single naga unit is broken. Reaver is strong as Grunt but costs less than ghoul, Snap Dragon gets poison for free, Myrmidon has very good stats and ensnare which can be very powerful if used properly, Sirens get parasite that can't be removed and all 3 spells are useful, Dragon Turtles are very hard to kill and can full many roles and last but not least is Coautl who is strong as Windrider but costs just 2 food and can counter magic. All units swim and are available at tier 1. No need to even mention Royal Guard who is a demi-hero. Items can be bought in neutral shops and only heroes are really lacking.

I am already writing long post and already checked some stuff, but I will test that too and tell you exactly how powerful units are comparing to others.

Of course not saying that demonic units aren't powerful too but they aren't designed as techtree, they are just sum of high level creeps that are naturally stronger than trainable units. Which can't actually be trained

Sure, you are right that. In black citadel. Thats why I said they needed healers.
But in Gates of Abyss, you can train them, actually demonic gates will spawn all of them quickly.

so that leaves them only with fel orc techtree which is very limited and just brute power.

yeah, true that but do not forget that Fel orcs cost same as regular orcs, but more powerful in manner of hp regeneration, strength and damage. That Warlock is also powerful spellcaster. But yes, they pay for upgrades to upgrade just few units, no healers, no anti spellcasters, no weaker air units, just Dragon level 10, just two type of heroes...
They are designed to be combined with some forces. That Gromm Hellscream had still trolls Headhunters and witch doctors...
And magtheridon's Fel Orcs are combined with Demons (still no healers and revealers).

As for not being able to survive in deep water, well nobody ever accused Blizzard for having any idea how biology works.

Exactly. Thats why I am saying according to Blizzard's logic it is not wrong to put new jungle units.

And all that appeared in less then a decade on barren island previously located on the bottom of ocean. I am impressed!

I think it is said to be about 20 years, but still yes. That is much. Perhaps some magic did that or side effect or rising them from sea flow. Remember that Keepers of Grove, that demigod can actually raise forest in seconds.
Also after killing death revenant there in campaign, that part of cursed forest regenerates quickly too. Felwood only is unable to regenerate because it is affected with far more powerful demonic magics which even druids cannot take care of.

Also Arakkoa can't fly...till current expansion which set in the alternative past. And well Arakkoa are located in forests anyway, they aren't parrots. Outland Ecosystems are varied too in WoW.

Oh yeah, alternate past.... You just need to mention that sentence and everything will be clear to me. I do not even want to know of Blizzard's alternate past. I am not fan of time travelling like that. This is War craft, not terminator or X-Men or Butterfly Effect movies.

Well in gameplay yes they could totally do that if they had brains.

Yeah, as you explained, AI limitations.

But in story they can not or at least not in meaningful amount or in way that behaves exactly like in game. Though Sylvanas in WoW actually lost charm ability and banshees seem rare now.

What is her ability instead of charm?
Yeah, I think also she would have something different, something destructive or to call supporting forces. Charm is only added as cool ability by Blizzard to mind control enemy. Yeah, they wrote that in their offical site that undeads have cool ability to posses enemy units to fight for them. Seems that they were impressed by it and wanted to expand it into ability.

Except that cages would spawn hostile Draenei and if I recall most were melee units and not healers.

Hostile Draenei yes, but whoever you release from cage becomes yours to command. When you kill those boses, all units from cages of agony and torture become yours, so you get Fel Orc Warlock and Fel Guard. But yes, spawne Draenei would be hostile because demons tortured them perhaps or planned to do so.
And from Gates of Abyss from three cages are released Draenei Stalked, Draenei Vindicator and Draenei Seer.
From Lord of Outland, there are

I wouldn't really be bothered by lack of healing if I controlled demonic army as I already would have extremely powerful units. Infernals, Doom Guards and Fel guards on front, very wide selection of all kinds of ranged units with devastating spells and fel stalkers as hero chasers. Heck I would just make Red Dragons with orcs till I get 100 pop and lets see them stopping me.
I really wouldn't bother getting draenei units when I already have so many units.

Yeah, that tactic works too.

Pit Lord is still supposed to be the military commander, Kil'Jaden and Gul'dan were covert operatives. But again Pit Lords seem to be idiots.

yeah, as Ilidan said, Magtheridon over last years did not have real enemy so he became competent. He did not took them as serious threat. Now, he is locked in chains.

Or you know, have several level 8+ units together and not alone except at the very end. Get infernals on the front, Doom Guards on the flanks and Eredar casters rain down eternal pain.

And Voidwalkers level 9, as well those Sucubbus level 8 and 10 and you are done with enemy.

They already had enough units to defeat you but because you are supposed to win they didn't use any of their numerous advantages.

Yeah. Naga alone would not beat them because of few disadvantages, while blood elves definitvely are not standing chance. They depend mostly of throwing spells at enemy which is good thing for someone who has lot of concentration to do this all in same time. But demons are experts at anti spell casters. Mana Burn from fel beasts, Abolish Magic from Eredar, Devour magic from Fel beast and Voidwalkers, Dispel Magic from Doom Guard, Mana shield from Eredar, Silence from Sucubbus, Spell immune Infernal...
So they are done...

He didn't get the memo that all Doom Guards must learn how to see. Mail is always late in Outland.

yeah. But I think those are learned in Outland how to use it according to informations they got while corrupting Arshewale and hunting Night Elves down. Then those are sent into Barrens. But mail should be very quick there because they use demonic gates and various portals and demons are seen to teleport. Archimonde, Mannorth, those Dreadlord and any higher powered demonic hero could do that, shifting between places and dimensions.
So, yes that proves ourp oint that some things are done intentionally

Oh so then it is WoW map.

hehe I did not decided 100% yet. Maybe I will put just regular draenei vs Fel orc and demons if I am lazy to import much stuff for new Draenei race.

To be honest for something like that I would design Fel Orc and Burning Legion techtrees and get rid off creep units entirely and make Bosses Heroes. Since it is campaign and you don't play with Fel Orcs I would be lazy and make them more or less as regular orcs, definitely change Orc Warlock (never ever should caster have storm bolt ><), replace trolls with crossbow fel orc and Necrolyte (Raise Dead, Unholy Armor and Haste), keep Red Dragons (Nether for demons) and replace Tauren with Ogres (Fel Ogres?) because Ogres are natives in Outland. Would still need to think of something for an extra flyer. Probably would replace kodo as those aren't native on outland, unless you tell me they are Clefthoves.

Yes. What should you do for regular Wc3 storyline since Ogres are not present in Outland now and there are no fel ogres?

Burning Legion already has wonderful selection of in game models alone. Fel Guard as light melee, Void Walker as ranged, Infernal or Doom Guard as heavy melee (nerfed), Diabolist and Succubus as casters, Fel Stalkers as anticaster (mana burn/feadback and devour magic), Infernal Engines as proper siege unit. What I would lack then is alternative siege/harass unit, several flyers (light/AA flyer, heavy magic flyer and optional 3rd).
Idea is to have 12 units (counting worker) in techtree ideally.

hehe seems that you have woderful mind for creating melee race